Diablo III: Don't Forget To Eat Today

[sonofzeal]

Heyo all!

I was a huge fan of Diablo 2 and enjoyed #1 too, but heard very mixed things about D3 during its launch ("ERROR 3006") and most of my friends who played were ambivalent even after that. Still, I do love action-RPGs in general, and the Diablo series in particular, and I'm thinking of giving it a chance.

A couple questions though - how does it compare to D2? How's the difficulty curve? How much variety is there? And, more particularly, where does it fall on the strategic-to-tactical continuum, how much of a character's power is based on longer-term character building and itemization and how much is from skill at controlling the character?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Heyo all!

I was a huge fan of Diablo 2 and enjoyed #1 too, but heard very mixed things about D3 during its launch ("ERROR 3006") and most of my friends who played were ambivalent even after that. Still, I do love action-RPGs in general, and the Diablo series in particular, and I'm thinking of giving it a chance.

A couple questions though - how does it compare to D2? How's the difficulty curve? How much variety is there? And, more particularly, where does it fall on the strategic-to-tactical continuum, how much of a character's power is based on longer-term character building and itemization and how much is from skill at controlling the character?

Like in d2, there's some trap builds, and there's some more commonly used builds. Unlike d2, you can swap your skillset pretty much on the fly (as long as you are not actively in combat). So if you make a poor choice, you can try something else. This gives you a lot of ability to start swapping skills around until something works for you.

As with any diablo game, the gear is your primary difference in power levels. Knowing how to use your skills is actually more important in D3 than in D2, and skill combos can be particularly useful, so there is something to be said for player skill involved in how effective you are. However, the difference between T1 and T8 is almost exclusively gear.

However, gear isn't as bad as it used to be. Or, more specifically, gear is 'weighted' to your primary skills. So, for example, a Wizard will find a lot of drops with Int, but almost nothing with Dex. A Monk, on the other hand, will be swimming in +Dex and have almost no +Int. There's also ways to grind your gear with a better chance of getting something good. The bounties and rifts are an awesome way to grind gear without fighting bosses over and over.

There's also two class-specific sets for each class that needs to be in at least T1 difficulty to obtain that tend to be considered 'top tier gear' for that class. For example, Firebirds for Wizards. If you are a Wizard, and are in T4+, odds are you are in Firebirds, or working to obtain it. The four piece set bonus is basically a 'get out of death free' card with a sixty second refresh, and the six piece is basically 'All The DPS'.

Certain builds can take advantage of Legendary unique aspects. For example, there's an off-hand Source for Wizards that lets Ray of Frost pierce. There's a whole build that takes advantage of this that uses Ray of frost as the primary damage spell. This build tends to focus on Cold damage spells, namely Blizzard and Magic Bolt with the Frost Bolt rune, because then you can stack +% Cold Damage and all your deeps goes up.

However, as you gear up with a specific build in mind, you also make yourself less flexible. For example, if you have a total of +80% Fire damage on a character, you probably are going to want to make sure that all your attacks are doing fire. So finding that Legendary source that lets Ray of Frost pierce isn't really going to be all that useful to you unless you want to completely re-gear.

And the one thing that makes it palatable? The greedy Enchantress, who will swap out a single property on an item for another property on a similar list. You know how you've gotten that item that is ALMOST what you want, except that one worthless thing that you wish was something else? You can fix that. For a price. A very steep price. That continues climbing every time you 're-roll' that property. And you can only roll ONE property, once you choose it, that choice is permanent, and the item becomes account bound, if it wasn't already.

Your stash is shared by all your characters, and has multiple pages. However, there's really not much you want to hoard, so it doesn't feel punitive. The only thing that really took up multiple mules of inventory in d2 were runes, and those are a thing of the past. Once you hit level cap and are on at least expert difficulty, you really aren't bothering with anything less than Marquee gems. But this means you get to swap gear between characters very easily.

[sonofzeal]

As with any diablo game, the gear is your primary difference in power levels. Knowing how to use your skills is actually more important in D3 than in D2, and skill combos can be particularly useful, so there is something to be said for player skill involved in how effective you are. However, the difference between T1 and T8 is almost exclusively gear.

There's a lot of great information here, but this bit isn't quite what I was asking.

Maybe a rephrase - how important are fast reflexes and good positional sense?

[NineThePuma]

Much like the old diablos, more of the game is farming that perfect item, and as you get more-perfect items, the progression kind of slows down. Unlike the old diablos it's really bad for target farming. I enjoy it, and it's a great game to play with friends, but the solo play kind of peters out.

Edit: varies depending on class. Essentially, it's a lot like League on a reflexes level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a lot of great information here, but this bit isn't quite what I was asking.

Maybe a rephrase - how important are fast reflexes and good positional sense?

It gets more important the higher up the difficulty chain you go. At higher tiers, you simply cannot simply 'tank' everything, no matter your build. You can't get, for example, the 200% damage dealt as life and out-DPS all the things, it doesn't work that way. Also, monster damage and life start ramping seriously as you go up in difficulty, so you HAVE to be at least moderately tactical since a lot of elite suffixes use effects that stick around in a given area that you should probably not stay in. Of course, you also get Wallers and Jailers that will try to stop that. Nearly every 'big' attack has a 'tell', some visual cue that lets you know something is going to happen in that area if you don't move it.

At lower difficulties, it isn't really that big a problem, you might be able to deal with standing in a pool of acid while still bringing down the pain. But after around Torment 2-3, that's simply not going to be an option anymore, it will just do too much damage to not avoid it.

Also, you have a lot of 'line' or 'cone' type effect skills that require placement skills to use effectively.

So... more than in D1 or D2.

[Anxe]

It gets more important the higher up the difficulty chain you go. At higher tiers, you simply cannot simply 'tank' everything, no matter your build. You can't get, for example, the 200% damage dealt as life and out-DPS all the things, it doesn't work that way. Also, monster damage and life start ramping seriously as you go up in difficulty, so you HAVE to be at least moderately tactical since a lot of elite suffixes use effects that stick around in a given area that you should probably not stay in. Of course, you also get Wallers and Jailers that will try to stop that. Nearly every 'big' attack has a 'tell', some visual cue that lets you know something is going to happen in that area if you don't move it.

At lower difficulties, it isn't really that big a problem, you might be able to deal with standing in a pool of acid while still bringing down the pain. But after around Torment 2-3, that's simply not going to be an option anymore, it will just do too much damage to not avoid it.

Also, you have a lot of 'line' or 'cone' type effect skills that require placement skills to use effectively.

So... more than in D1 or D2.

It does depend on your build for how much damage you can take. My friends and I run with one of using a tank build and the rest of us doing damage builds at T4. The tank CANNOT be killed. The monsters really can't do it. I think he went to half health fighting Diablo himself and he was just like, "Guess I'll drink one of my potions." The rest of us hopped around being mobile and dealing tons of damage. The problem with the tank's build is that he has sacrificed damage dealing. He can't even kill a normal monster by himself on T4.

From what I've seen on Youtube, high damage builds are the way to go in groups on higher torment levels as well. The tank specialization is not a terrible idea though, as long as you're working with a group that appreciates it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It does depend on your build for how much damage you can take. My friends and I run with one of using a tank build and the rest of us doing damage builds at T4. The tank CANNOT be killed. The monsters really can't do it. I think he went to half health fighting Diablo himself and he was just like, "Guess I'll drink one of my potions." The rest of us hopped around being mobile and dealing tons of damage. The problem with the tank's build is that he has sacrificed damage dealing. He can't even kill a normal monster by himself on T4.

From what I've seen on Youtube, high damage builds are the way to go in groups on higher torment levels as well. The tank specialization is not a terrible idea though, as long as you're working with a group that appreciates it.

I was referring more to single player, a tank build really only works in multiplayer and only if you are doing actual teams and not just splitting up and randomly slaughtering in multiple directions simultaneously. As you pointed out, if you build enough defense that you can walk through things, you don't have enough offense to be able to scratch the paint on anything.

[Anxe]

I was referring more to single player, a tank build really only works in multiplayer and only if you are doing actual teams and not just splitting up and randomly slaughtering in multiple directions simultaneously. As you pointed out, if you build enough defense that you can walk through things, you don't have enough offense to be able to scratch the paint on anything.

Exactly. There's no way a tank build would work in solo play.

[Psyren]

Crusader can very easily get to massive amounts of both toughness and damage. They also get the 30% DR baseline that Barbarian and Monk get, plus you can build one ranged to stay even further out of harm's way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crusader can very easily get to massive amounts of both toughness and damage. They also get the 30% DR baseline that Barbarian and Monk get, plus you can build one ranged to stay even further out of harm's way.

I still haven't seen one that can just walk through T4+, and to build a 'sader like that requires that you sacrifice what little mobility it once potentially possessed. Which means once the DPS and health of the mobs goes high enough, they are no longer able to dodge around to survive like most of the other classes can and die a lot.

[Psyren]

I still haven't seen one that can just walk through T4+, and to build a 'sader like that requires that you sacrifice what little mobility it once potentially possessed. Which means once the DPS and health of the mobs goes high enough, they are no longer able to dodge around to survive like most of the other classes can and die a lot.

Not sure what you mean - there are plenty of T6-viable Sader builds out there, centered around a variety of main skills like Heaven's Fury, FoH, Blessed Shield, Phalanx etc. Steed's Charge is usually all the mobility they need, and some don't even run that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not sure what you mean - there are plenty of T6-viable Sader builds out there, centered around a variety of main skills like Heaven's Fury, FoH, Blessed Shield, Phalanx etc. Steed's Charge is usually all the mobility they need, and some don't even run that.

Yes, but you can't simply ignore Elite effects and expect to survive. That's what we are discussing. Your ability to control your character has more input to your survivability than in previous Diablo iterations, because you've got tons of things that you need to react to.

[Psyren]

Where did I say you can "ignore" anything?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Where did I say you can "ignore" anything?

Anxe and I were discussing the non-viability of a 'tank' build where you could pretty much ignore anything mobs would do to you, because in doing so you'd sacrifice so much of your DPS that it wouldn't be viable in single player. I thought you were chiming in on the same topic.

[NineThePuma]

Are thorns builds viable?

[Anxe]

I've never tried one. There's some legendary gear that makes it viable, but I don't know what torment it could do.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are thorns builds viable?

As difficulty scales, monster DPS scales linearly, monster HP scales geometrically. So as difficulty increases, the effectiveness of thorns decreases. Besides, most thorns effects are based on flat 'damage per being attacked' rather than a percentage of monster damage output.

[Psyren]

There was a Crusader Thorns build that could do T6 but I think it abused a glitch. No idea if it's still viable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Got the four piece set bonus from Firebirds. Two more to go until doom, death, and destruction follows in my wake. Well... even more than it currently is. But hey, extra resurrection effect is never a bad thing.

[Kerrin]

Woo! Got a third piece of Blackthorne's the other day. Now just need one more!

Got a fourth piece a couple of weeks ago! Been swapping it on/off whenever we run across corresponding enemies.

[Gnoman]

PLaying last night, I picked up the "ZUNIMASSA'S VISION" head armor, and was looking at the set bonus. The complete bonus gives you the ability "Your fetish army lasts until it dies" which seems insanely powerful, as almost everything melts once I summon said army. Am I missing something, or is this really that nice a set and worth keeping the hat (in the hopes of getting the rest of the set) even if I find a better helmet?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

PLaying last night, I picked up the "ZUNIMASSA'S VISION" head armor, and was looking at the set bonus. The complete bonus gives you the ability "Your fetish army lasts until it dies" which seems insanely powerful, as almost everything melts once I summon said army. Am I missing something, or is this really that nice a set and worth keeping the hat (in the hopes of getting the rest of the set) even if I find a better helmet?

That is the Torment difficulty set, which are ridiculously hard to complete because they require you to farm in at least Torment1 and are exceedingly rare drops. Basically, completing the set is the end-tier gear for the class.

For comparison, check out Firebird's for the Wizard. Look at that capstone ability. Now recall that there's a Blizzard rune that deals fire damage that can be spammed, causing stupid amounts of fire damage.

Yea, each class has a suit like that.

Typically, for a pet class, this is the one piece that is almost never used from this set, because you almost always use a Mask of Jeram in pet-centric builds. You can also employ Tasker and Theo if you employ a Ring of Royal Grandeur.

[Gnoman]

So, I'm not missing anything, it's just a hard set to complete. Makes sense.

[Derjuin]

Typically, for a pet class, this is the one piece that is almost never used from this set, because you almost always use a Mask of Jeram in pet-centric builds. You can also employ Tasker and Theo if you employ a Ring of Royal Grandeur.

Speaking of RoRGs, are there any classes/builds that can get away with not wearing one? I'm curious because, for pretty much every class, it seems their top-tier choice for rings is "RoRG and SoJ, with sockets".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Speaking of RoRGs, are there any classes/builds that can get away with not wearing one? I'm curious because, for pretty much every class, it seems their top-tier choice for rings is "RoRG and SoJ, with sockets".

RoRG is pretty much end-tier because it means one less set piece required from every set. This lets you get set bonuses from two different sets, which can be enormously huge. For example, I can pick up two more pieces of Firebirds and get the 6 piece set bonus with only 5 pieces, and still have two pieces of Cain's and get the three piece set bonus Magic Item Find. As you add more sets, its value goes up exponentially.

[Derjuin]

RoRG is pretty much end-tier because it means one less set piece required from every set. This lets you get set bonuses from two different sets, which can be enormously huge. For example, I can pick up two more pieces of Firebirds and get the 6 piece set bonus with only 5 pieces, and still have two pieces of Cain's and get the three piece set bonus Magic Item Find. As you add more sets, its value goes up exponentially.

Aughild's too, for the sweet 15% elite damage reduction/bonus at 2 pieces + RoRG. My barbarian is most likely going to run 3 piece IK + 2 piece Aughild's, unless the stompy jumpy earthquake build just happens to be far superior. Won't know until I get more pieces of the set, though.

Unfortunately, my DH's equipment setup only allows her to wear one set - the 5 pieces of Marauder's. Using 2 pieces of Aughild's would restrict her to using Marauder gauntlets, which would be a downgrade from T&T. Something with a Belt and Bracer might work, though, since I currently use Harrington belt (effect is useless in greater rifts, iirc) and Reaper Wraps (kind of placeholder for now, but the stats are good). At one point I was using Nat's ring + weapon for bonus dex, crit and discipline from the set, but I've since found a Buriza and a SoJ that absolutely demolished the combo in damage output.

My inquiry about the RoRG is mostly because I now have both Bastions of Will, and the set seems...well, not that great, because it's a 2-ring set, which means it's mutually exclusive with a RoRG.

[Gov. Sandwiches]

I play this game a ton, I really like it. Satisfies my need to level and grind pretty well and with no monthly fee! Just hit 70 on my wizard, first one to do that.

I'd like to play with people but the only thing is that I'm not terribly good I don't think (still alternating between master and torment I) and I don't want to embarrass myself, you know?

[Psyren]

I play with people better than me all the time, it doesn't bother me. People rarely talk at all (and when they do, they are cursing, praising or prostrating themselves before the RNG gods) and they pretty much just revive you without a word. I've been in games with people that have 200/300/400+ more Paragon than I do, yet are running T3 and T4 for some odd reason. You'll be fine at T1.

Also, it's double exp this weekend and I'm pretty sure they've cranked up the magic find too judging by how many legendaries I've been getting. Even sharding most of them and only keeping a few I ended up with 25 more souls in a single night, plus another piece of Vyr's, another piece of Tal's (the orb!), another piece of Blackthorne's, full Traveler's and my first piece of Zuni's.

[Derjuin]

I play with people better than me all the time, it doesn't bother me. People rarely talk at all (and when they do, they are cursing, praising or prostrating themselves before the RNG gods) and they pretty much just revive you without a word. I've been in games with people that have 200/300/400+ more Paragon than I do, yet are running T3 and T4 for some odd reason. You'll be fine at T1.

Also, it's double exp this weekend and I'm pretty sure they've cranked up the magic find too judging by how many legendaries I've been getting. Even sharding most of them and only keeping a few I ended up with 25 more souls in a single night, plus another piece of Vyr's, another piece of Tal's (the orb!), another piece of Blackthorne's, full Traveler's and my first piece of Zuni's.

Usually if people are in a lower torment level, it's because it's faster for them to run those than T6. They find a balance between increased item drops and kill speed; for my barbarian, it's T3, even though she can do T6.

I find that Diablo players in general (at least in D2/D3) tend not to care if your character is not as "good" as theirs (unless they are bumsockets) as long as you're contributing. Even something as little as an Aura/Mantra and some extra passive healing is fine. I'm totally okay with other players, even newer ones joining my games, though I usually run private ones because I'm all over the place in what I feel like doing.

[Anxe]

I'm usually okay with giving one person in a game a ride to the top by carrying them, but more than that and I get a little annoyed. It takes longer to clear stuff because they're in the game and they aren't contributing damage. The rewards don't scal high enough to be worth it. If they're cheerful and funny its cool, but D3 doesn't leave much time in the rush for loot to chat with people. Sometimes I wish there was a chat option like in Starcraft 2. Pressing on button would help get along with people a lot faster than typing.