Legend of Korra, Book 4: Too Graphic for TV

[John Cribati]

So yeah. Season 4. The last we'll likely see of Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko's Avatar: the Last Airbender universe.

Probably a good thing, because season 1 was honestly iffy, and 2 very nearly ran the show into the ground. 3 brought some quality back, but with the move from TV to digital only, Nick isn't likely to renew it again anyway.

Topics from the last few pages of the old thread:

Kuvira: obvious villain (because what else is new), but is she really bad?

Why puberty treated the Gaang so kindly (hint: it was mainly the shift to a more realistic art style).

Fanservice sucks, keep the old show where it was and focus on the new.

Fanservice is awesome, I like knowing where all the old Gaang ended up!

Shadow Korra: what exactly is she/it?

[MLai]

Probably a good thing, because season 1 was honestly iffy, and 2 very nearly ran the show into the ground. 3 brought some quality back, but with the move from TV to digital only, Nick isn't likely to renew it again anyway.

I like the story in S03 and S04, and I love the animation style in all of it, so I'm sorry to see Avatar-verse go. However, yes I would say the writers did this to themselves. Yes yes, the network interfered and also gave them the schedule of death, bla bla. But the numbers still don't lie, S02 was weak and got weak ratings.

What I'm wondering is whether they even see it, or whether they're blind and delusional like George Lucas or Shyamalan, and will go to their graves thinking they wrote a masterpiece and it's all Nick's fault for not Understanding Their Vision.

I'm hoping once Nick drops Avatar-verse, and these 2 writers are no longer under restrictions from speaking candidly, that they'll show some introspection at the inevitable interviews and con forums. And admit what they did wrong in S01 and S02, and what they could have done better storywise.

[Morty]

Fanservice sucks, keep the old show where it was and focus on the new.

That's my opinion, although not quite as extreme and strongly worded. So far the appearances by old characters ranged from unobtrusive at best to annoying at worst. Zuko and Katara were mostly fine, and the awkward conversation in the elevator was amusing. But Iroh's appearance in the spirit world was just jarring.

As far as this season being the end of Avatar goes, no show can run forever. I just wish they'd been given three or four seasons right from the start, so they didn't have to deliver the story in bits and pieces. If they'd had a solid forty episodes to work with (I think the second, third and fourth seasons add up to forty), they might have been able to weave the spirit troubles, Unalok, Avatar Wan, Red Lotus and whatever the current season will end up dealing with into a more coherent single storyline - presuming they could give the spirit world story an actual direction, of course. That, or give the Equalists the narrative gravity they deserved - combining them with the other storylines would have been too crowded, I think. I suppose you could work the Equalists in if they were smaller-scale - no invading Republic City with airships, and no inexplicable power to strip away bending on part of their leader. Just a terrorist network of dissatisfied non-benders, and another sign that the world is changing more than ever, so the Avatar has to deal with problems that wouldn't even occur to anyone in Aang's time. Heck, maybe Amon could be another non-bending member of the Red Lotus who quit due to ideological differences and decided to wage a war on bending all by himself.

[Reverent-One]

Yes yes, the network interfered and also gave them the schedule of death, bla bla. But the numbers still don't lie, S02 was weak and got weak ratings.

What a surprise that those two things could be related.

[LibraryOgre]

I like the story in S03 and S04, and I love the animation style in all of it, so I'm sorry to see Avatar-verse go. However, yes I would say the writers did this to themselves.

I'd also say that, to an extent, the writers did it to themselves by jumping the setting a bit. By moving Korra into a 1920s-like setting, they gave themselves a lot fewer places to go for a third season... though it amuses me that their next 70 year jump (from the end of Season 4 to Korra's replacement growing up) would put them in the 90s, which would be foreign territory for most of their audience (I spent some time last night with my wife's classmates, who are college freshmen... meaning they were born about the time I graduated high school; the future may be foreign territory, but so is the time before your birth).

[MLai]

Heck, maybe Amon could be another non-bending member of the Red Lotus who quit due to ideological differences and decided to wage a war on bending all by himself.

I still like the idea of Amon being a spiritbender, i.e. someone who went back to the very roots of bending, the primordial kung fu. It gives him a certain shonen legitimacy, like being a shaolin monk or a jedi master in a world of wannabes.

Ofc S02 killed the idea of spiritbending dead.

And Mark Hall has a wife almost young enough to be his daughter? Good on you, ol' chap!

[LibraryOgre]

I still like the idea of Amon being a spiritbender, i.e. someone who went back to the very roots of bending, the primordial kung fu. It gives him a certain shonen legitimacy, like being a shaolin monk or a jedi master in a world of wannabes.

Ofc S02 killed the idea of spiritbending dead.

And Mark Hall has a wife almost young enough to be his daughter? Good on you, ol' chap!

No, she's only 13 years younger than me; her classmates are a few years younger than her.

[Morty]

I had the idea of him being the evil opposite of Guru Pathik - someone who has immense knowledge of spirituality and the flow of energy in human body and soul, but isn't a bender. Maybe they only have access to such insight because they're not benders. Still, like I said, if the Equalists were just a part of the changes sweeping through the Avatar world, their leader wouldn't even need weird powers.

[Cen]

I had the idea of him being the evil opposite of Guru Pathik - someone who has immense knowledge of spirituality and the flow of energy in human body and soul, but isn't a bender.

I find it funny that you described Zaheer before he gained airbending ;-)

[Morty]

Did I, now? We don't actually know that much about Zaheer before he was given airbending. What we do know seems to imply that he had all it takes to be a master airbender... except for actually being born with airbending. Which isn't really the same thing as being a non-bender with an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of a human soul, mind and body. Mind you, the story of a non-bender who is only this one step away from being a master of a bending art would have been interesting, although I don't reproach them for not showing it.

[Ramza00]

I find it funny that you described Zaheer before he gained airbending ;-)

Maybe it is just me but Zaheer got less spiritual and less reflective as the story went on. Instead he got more certain and more of a fanatic. Lucky for him flight was just as much remove all doubts in your head thing as it was detaching yourself from your earthly tethers.

Someone should add Zaheer to "clap your hands if you believe trope" he is literally a human tinkerbell.



In sum the guy at the beginning of the season 3 (Zaheer with long hair and a beard) I could imagine being a spirit bender, someone who understands all the elements and himself and the world around him. Zaheer bald with no beard could not possibly be a spirit bender, a fantastical crazy airbender who you go ninja on you definitely but not Guru Pathik even a dark Guru Pathik.



On another note I would love to seen Tenzin vs Kuvira before the season ends. We never have seen a real master airbender vs a real master earthbender. Only novice airbenders vs Dai Li, Aang vs Dai Li, and a couple fake fights between Toph and Aang in the blind bandit.

Complete and utter evasion against a person who stands still but moves the environment around herself in attack and defense. A person who has Tenzin's speed with her precise metalbending.

[Metahuman1]

If we go that route of shining morality, then basically every single founding king/emperor in China's 5000 year history is a mustache-twirling villain.
Which isn't that far from the truth in an absolutist sense, but China is better off for having had them than without.

(1) Yes she's gathering power to herself. As opposed to the alternative, a useless ponce of an exiled prince? If she's blindly loyal to the prince, as shining morality dictates, then she's dooming the nation to repeat its own history. Ambition is not evil in and of itself.
(2) She likely sabotaged the kids' relief effort. Yes that's low, but in the grand scheme of things not really. What the kids are doing is a temporary salve that makes themselves feel good, but in the long run achieves nothing. Kuvira's move handily forced the chieftain/governor/whatev to sign the treaty, at which point the people got all the food and more.

Edit: Crap, I made page 51. What happens now? Am I going to get smited? Smote? Smitten?

So, MLai, what I'm getting here is "I have already decided that when it turns out she's the villain and looses by the end of the season I am gonna go right back to hating the show no matter what happens, even if she starts murdering people on screen left and right and talking about how Genocide is an awesome way to fix her problems and how she is a god and no one ever has any right to so much as disagree with her ever, ext ext ext." That about right?

Cause, I gotta tell ya, when the bad parts of her giving "relief" to these people, the things the governors knew was gonna happen, happen, it's not gonna make her look good. Worse still will be the obvious reveal that if she'd just left well enough alone that the various provinces were self sufficient enough that they'd have done just fine apart from Ba Sing Sa itself, but that didn't suit her so instead she used bandits to put screws on them to get them under her direct control for sake of solidifying her direct power.

[dehro]

1) I never said I don't understand why she's doing these things or that having king Pharrell would be better, but her ways are at best questionable, at worst criminal, which leads me to point
2) the tactic is squarely in camp evil. She takes advantage of a weaker side by making the stronger, criminal side even stronger, then she flips the board and comes in as a blatantly abusive saviour. It's at best a guess to say that the relief organised by the air nomads would be. Ineffective. Given time and assistance they could also have organised a resistance to fight off the bandits... Had they not been actively obstructed.
A good guy would have helped against the bandits and earned the allegiance of the province and the governor. A bad guy strongarms you into accepting "protection"... It really is standard storytelling fare which goes from organized crime to first steps of world domination. Even children must have encountered similar plots and learned to reccognise them
And fanservice is awesome! I think they have handled the cameos pretty damn well, so far. We'll see where they will go with jedi Toph, and if we'll ever learn about Sokka's demise, but so far I'm happy

[Hatu]

Maybe it is just me but Zaheer got less spiritual and less reflective as the story went on. Instead he got more certain and more of a fanatic. Lucky for him flight was just as much remove all doubts in your head thing as it was detaching yourself from your earthly tethers.

Someone should add Zaheer to "clap your hands if you believe trope" he is literally a human tinkerbell.


In sum the guy at the beginning of the season 3 (Zaheer with long hair and a beard) I could imagine being a spirit bender, someone who understands all the elements and himself and the world around him. Zaheer bald with no beard could not possibly be a spirit bender, a fantastical crazy airbender who you go ninja on you definitely but not Guru Pathik even a dark Guru Pathik.

I agree with that. As seems to be standard for LoK villains, Zaheer offered an interesting premise early in the season, but rapidly devolved to uber-powerful villain doing things for teh evulz by the end of it.

For all his spiritual pretense, Zaheer's philosophy ultimately boiled down to "everyone should be able to kill anyone who gets in their way." That's not only not very spiritual, I'd say it's rather materialistic.

On another note I would love to seen Tenzin vs Kuvira before the season ends. We never have seen a real master airbender vs a real master earthbender. Only novice airbenders vs Dai Li, Aang vs Dai Li, and a couple fake fights between Toph and Aang in the blind bandit.

Complete and utter evasion against a person who stands still but moves the environment around herself in attack and defense. A person who has Tenzin's speed with her precise metalbending.

An interesting idea, but given that Tenzin has a win/loss record that approaches the Washington Generals, I don't think he's up for the challenge.

-H

[Reddish Mage]

1) I never said I don't understand why she's doing these things or that having king Pharrell would be better, but her ways are at best questionable, at worst criminal, which leads me to point
2) the tactic is squarely in camp evil. She takes advantage of a weaker side by making the stronger, criminal side even stronger, then she flips the board and comes in as a blatantly abusive saviour. It's at best a guess to say that the relief organised by the air nomads would be. Ineffective. Given time and assistance they could also have organised a resistance to fight off the bandits... Had they not been actively obstructed.
A good guy would have helped against the bandits and earned the allegiance of the province and the governor. A bad guy strongarms you into accepting "protection"... It really is standard storytelling fare which goes from organized crime to first steps of world domination.

Its certainly a perfectly fine thing to depict a strong-arm tactics by Kuvira as evil. It is also perfectly fine to for Konietzko and DiMartino to suggest that the various regions were perfectly fine on their own (if they ever suggest this). However, I'm not sure they will take any stand on the matter.

The political situation as now depicted certainly contains indications that suggest unity would be a good thing, most specifically the fact that the Earth Kingdom was apparently a united kingdom prior to a few years ago. Moreover, we are left to guess at the legitimacy of the governors themselves, the regions they govern, and those borders. We can also ask if there are inherent benefits and legitimacy of unity and nationalism themselves.

Yet, in the end, what matters is what the story is going to focus on, which looks like it will be the actions of Kuvira. Each of the seasons have taken place in a questionable and fractious political environment with multiple viewpoints being expressed, but ultimately Korra identifies villains because they attacked people she cares about. Whatever side Korra ends up on at the end is implied to be correct politics because we see peace and prosperity flowing from that direction after the fact, but ultimately, even when there's a suggestion that say, the Equalist had a point, (there rebellion why Republic city is now a democratic Republic city), its largely swept under the rug.

Ask not about the goodness of the politics in the story, ask about the goodness of the politics for the story.

[huttj509]

Its certainly a perfectly fine thing to depict a strong-arm tactics by Kuvira as evil. It is also perfectly fine to for Konietzko and DiMartino to suggest that the various regions were perfectly fine on their own (if they ever suggest this). However, I'm not sure they will take any stand on the matter.

The political situation as now depicted certainly contains indications that suggest unity would be a good thing, most specifically the fact that the Earth Kingdom was apparently a united kingdom prior to a few years ago. Moreover, we are left to guess at the legitimacy of the governors themselves, the regions they govern, and those borders. We can also ask if there are inherent benefits and legitimacy of unity and nationalism themselves.

Yet, in the end, what matters is what the story is going to focus on, which looks like it will be the actions of Kuvira. Each of the seasons have taken place in a questionable and fractious political environment with multiple viewpoints being expressed, but ultimately Korra identifies villains because they attacked people she cares about. Whatever side Korra ends up on at the end is implied to be correct politics because we see peace and prosperity flowing from that direction after the fact, but ultimately, even when there's a suggestion that say, the Equalist had a point, (there rebellion why Republic city is now a democratic Republic city), its largely swept under the rug.

Ask not about the goodness of the politics in the story, ask about the goodness of the politics for the story.

Sometimes, what choice is made matters less than that a choice IS made.

[LaZodiac]

I like the interpretation that Kuvira isn't evil, but is a villain. She's binding all of the Earth Kingdom under herself directly, but not because she's got any evil plot or anything. She just legitimately thinks she'd be a better ruler and it'd be better for the entire nation to stand united. She'll do anything she can to ensure they all get under her control, because after all her control is the best control, why would anyone want to be out of it. And like, to be FAIR, she IS doing good work here, we can plainly see that the Earth Nation is in pretty big chaos right about now.

[Reddish Mage]

I like the interpretation that Kuvira isn't evil, but is a villain. She's binding all of the Earth Kingdom under herself directly, but not because she's got any evil plot or anything. She just legitimately thinks she'd be a better ruler and it'd be better for the entire nation to stand united. She'll do anything she can to ensure they all get under her control, because after all her control is the best control, why would anyone want to be out of it. And like, to be FAIR, she IS doing good work here, we can plainly see that the Earth Nation is in pretty big chaos right about now.

If so, she'll be the first. Also, Team Avatar probably won't get back together or interfere with Kuvira if she merely becomes a benevolent dictator even if her rule is illegitimate in the eyes of Prince Manipedi. The reason Korra has gotten involved before has always been personal, and it will be again. Kuvira is going to get down to (if she hasn't already been doing) some serious villainy in addition to going after Republic City and the former Fire Colonies that make up its territory (after all, they were a part of the Earth Kingdom too...170 years ago).

[Metahuman1]

Or it might just be that she is using unacceptable and illegitimate means to do it and undermining other people solving the problem not because they can't solve the problem, but because it's not to her advantage for them to solve it.

[LaZodiac]

I for one can't wait for the episode where everyone bands up to stop her, and starts talking about how she needs to go down and whatever...and then Bolin interrupts to bring up all the good she's doing, and it puts a schism in the team that is left as a cliffhanger for the episode.

[MLai]

I for one can't wait for the episode where everyone bands up to stop her, and starts talking about how she needs to go down and whatever...and then Bolin interrupts to bring up all the good she's doing, and it puts a schism in the team that is left as a cliffhanger for the episode.

And then the next episode will immediately have Kuvira carry a villain ball, so that Bolin is shown to be wrong and stupid to have an open-minded opinion that took in the broader picture rather than personal biases.

[John Cribati]

And then the next episode will immediately have Kuvira carry a villain ball, so that Bolin is shown to be wrong and stupid to have an open-minded opinion that took in the broader picture rather than personal biases.

As much as I don't always see eye to eye with you, I must admit that sounds about right, given the track record with the villains so far.

[Hyena]

Well, Kuvira is certainly a step above Amon. No one ever brought up things HE was right about on screen.

Also, new episode. Yay.

[BWR]

Well, Kuvira is certainly a step above Amon. No one ever brought up things HE was right about on screen.

Also, new episode. Yay.

Bringing back Toph is a bit cheap - let new heroes take over, but it was undeniably fun to see her in action. Otherwise, this is shaping up to be the best season yet.

[Morty]

And then the next episode will immediately have Kuvira carry a villain ball, so that Bolin is shown to be wrong and stupid to have an open-minded opinion that took in the broader picture rather than personal biases.

As much as I don't always see eye to eye with you, I must admit that sounds about right, given the track record with the villains so far.

Yes, I wouldn't expect much of Kuvira. She's been pretty good so far, but in the end she'll be proven evil and every good guy and gal will abandon her.

[MLai]

What I don't understand is that the 2 writers obviously understand the concept of anti-villains of misguided motivations, based on what they've been doing in ATLA and LOK. And they obviously know how to write. And they obviously want to tackle more complex subject matter for their aging audience.

So why is it so ****ing difficult for them to write a single arc where y'know, the villain may actually have a point, that is already set up by the worldbuilding they themselves have written? It's as if some masterful writer writes the first few episodes for each villain of each season, and then the Writing B-team comes in and ruins everything. And that point you have to actually work to write the villains wrong by going against the good flow already set up. But boy, do they know how to work. They got that work down to a science.

[Phexar]

Spoiler: Episode 3 Spoilers

Show

So Kuvira finally and effortlessly made her play for power, announcing the Earth Kingdom is over and she now has command over the Earth Empire. No warring shown, just grave discontent, aside from Kuvira basically threatening that Suyin and Zaofu bend to her or else. And as the writers said, she was inspired by Suyin in that royals are outdated and that technology is what drives a nation forward. Despite her claiming to Bolin that she was just talking tough to the world though, we can tell that's not true.

As for that spirit vine technology that Varrick's working on at the end, probably used to get power out of the vine for some super-weapon/tech I'd guess. And Wu seems to have at least realized he's not king material at all. He seems much like a bratty and more spoiled version of Earth King Kuei, who also grew up more or less spoiled and isolated by the Dai Li anyway.

Toph hasn't changed a bit and is cantankerous as ever - plus Korra still has some traces of the metal poison within her body, which explains her current weakened state. Korra seems like she's subconsciously resisting attempts to remove the metal from her body though, because some part of her could be afraid of being the Avatar still.

We also got the scene of Zuko's daughter that we saw previously, though it turned out to just be at the coronation. Also swamp leech! and "It's no mistake. Desna sleeps in the tub."

[Morty]

Spoiler: Episode 3

Show

The would-be Earth King is still annoying, but also kind of pathetic. Could it be they're setting him up as a spoiled and sheltered relic of an outdated form of government, and someone we should feel bad for, rather than just a random goof-off? One can hope. I kind of expect him to learn the error of his ways and become a good king, which wouldn't sit well with me, but we'll see.

Likewise, Kuvira has a fairly good point for now, because putting a childish figurehead on the throne that you'll proceed to manipulate with "advisers", just because he has royal blood, really isn't a terribly good idea. I wonder what they'll eventually do with the Earth Kingdom.

It's interesting that Korra is still separated from the rest of the cast. I suppose it really is something she needs to get through herself. I was a bit disappointed that the reason behind her trouble is the remains of the poison in her system, but then it turned out there's more to that, so I'm fine with it. It looks like Korra subconsciously shirks from her status as the Avatar? Curious. I wonder how it'll end up.

[dehro]

Spoiler: kuvira

Show

she keeps going from actually having a point to proving that's totally not what she's about. If she really was being all about the people and so on, she would have no reason at all to threaten Suyin and her city who are living in a relative utopia compared to the rest of the Kingdom. The fact that she's threatening her mother in law to be makes no sense from any standpoint other than to prove she's evil and drive the point home with the viewers. Her supposed to be genius fiancée is rather disappointing in this picture... Bolin is same old same old, picking his allies like a stupid person, because if Kuvira is manipilating bandits, I find it hard to believe he yet again manages to be oblivious to it all.. Anyway, Suyin's city is in no way a danger to kuvira's rule, so attacking it would be purely out of spite and thirst for power.. We get it, she's evil.

[Reverent-One]

What I don't understand is that the 2 writers obviously understand the concept of anti-villains of misguided motivations, based on what they've been doing in ATLA and LOK. And they obviously know how to write. And they obviously want to tackle more complex subject matter for their aging audience.

So why is it so ****ing difficult for them to write a single arc where y'know, the villain may actually have a point, that is already set up by the worldbuilding they themselves have written? It's as if some masterful writer writes the first few episodes for each villain of each season, and then the Writing B-team comes in and ruins everything. And that point you have to actually work to write the villains wrong by going against the good flow already set up. But boy, do they know how to work. They got that work down to a science.

The most obvious answer is that they simply don't want to write that sort of arc and instead they want the villian to be a real bad guy and not have a point. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of media has definite good and bad guys.