Fighter subclass help

[GutterFace]

I've always ended up playing Clerics and druids and assorted casters and am going to finally be a fighter. I love both samurai and rube knight. I am not a min/max power gamer so I am looking for real opinions of people whom have tried either or both and let me know what you think are their fun and exciting parts are. And maybe lame parts too

[Greywander]

I haven't had the chance to play a fighter yet, but I've looked at a few builds. Rune Knights make fantastic grapplers, and it takes relatively little investment to optimize for grappling (all RK needs is expertise in Athletics, probably via the Skill Expert feat), allowing you to spend the rest of your build resources making a well-rounded fighter instead of a one-trick minmaxed pony. Samurai, on the other hand, I've heard make great archers. Both are really nice looking subclasses, so you should have fun either way.

[Eldariel]

Samurai is simple, but effective. It's pretty much what I think the Champion should've been: a bunch of turns you just decide you have advantage and can lay down a world of hurt. Obviously goes great with Elven Accuracy but it's effective without it. The big drawback is that until level 10, you only have 3 uses of it per long rest unlike with most Fighter subclasses. This means you generally want to combine it with Action Surge when you really need to lay the hurt on something right now. It also gets Wis save proficiencies, something most Fighters would love to have but have no access to: saves you the feat in taking Resilient: Wisdom (meaning you can take Resilient in either Dex or a secondary mental save or use the ASI for offense instead).

Good parts:
- Getting to be a relatively smooth talker from Tier 2 on (getting Wis + Cha in Persuasion is comparable to having Expertise on this level if you have decent Wis and Cha)
- Especially on level 5+, those Fighting Spirit Action Surge "blenderize you tender" turns. Especially if you are an elf archer with Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter: this lets you do that Legolas impression.
- Rapid Strike is strong and feels kinda cool. It comes late but essentially being able to add an additional arrow (or slash) to your volley (or barrage) as long as you've got advantage (which you've always got at least one of for each encounter) is sweet. This fits the samurai aesthetics quite well (not the kiai one, the other one) and the whole Fighter class like a punch to the eye.

Bad parts:
- Really samey. You do the same thing every fight every turn for 18 levels, pretty much. Okay, up until level 10 your management of Fighting Spirit is at least a bit relevant but on level 10+, you just want to Fighting Spirit your 3 LR uses away ASAP and then get that 1 free one per encounter for the rest of the day.
- Needs bonus action for fighting spirit. This makes feats like Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert far less useful than to normal fighters, though XBE is probably something you still want as a ranged Samurai just for those turns when you don't have Fighting Spirit uses left (there'll be plenty).
- Stacks poorly with sources of Temporary HP. Fighting Spirit gives you some extra durability in the form of temporary HP but as they don't stack, this goes poorly with Twilight Clerics, Inspiring Leaders, Shepherd Druids, etc. You generally want to optimise the timing of Fighting Spirit for the maximal value of the advantage, not the temp HP, so you don't gain that much from this unless you're in a duel where you're taking damage every round.
- The power level is average. Simple is rarely that strong. It's strong at hitting things hard but Battlemaster is probably stronger there (especially since Advantage can be gotten from other sources), and it lacks other things to make up for this.


Rune Knight is by comparison a much more varied class. If you're into spellcasters, I would definitely recommend Rune Knight simply to keep up the variety unless this is a one-shot or the like. You have your choice of 6 different runes each with a constant and an activated ability. Aside from Frost Rune, the runes are all decent (though mind that the save DCs are Con-based, which makes Stone Rune's activated ability significantly worse than otherwise) and Giant's Might is seriously cool (though feels more like a Barbarian than a Fighter ability). The invoked abilities are often quite action efficient (reactions typically) and recovered on short rest too, which is really nice. The latter abilities before level 15 are nothing to write home about though Runic Shield gives you a decent tool for protecting allies (generally you want another frontliner to use it with for it to produce consistent value) and your Reaction economy is pretty tight.

Good parts:
- You get to customise what you want to shine at with your runes, especially from level 7 onwards.
- You're basically a Barbarian with Fighter's extra attack progression and such once you get Hill Giant Rune on level 7 (you'll probably always want it prepared) except with none of the restrictions of Rage (but yours is 1/SR until 15 while theirs is ~4/LR). This is to say you're really tough to put down.
- Barbarian with Extra Attack (2) and eventually (3) is an insanely good grappler since grapple actions use attacks and thus extra attack is superb with them. Further, you get Large size which lets you grapple up to Huge (and on level 18, up to Gargantuan: time to suplex Tiamat!) as the only class without having to change shape. Do consider Skill Expert: Athletics.
- You get some decent non-combat utility from the runes (all but Hill Rune have somewhat relevant non-combat abilities - Storm Rune in particular granting advantage on 1 check/round to anyone for a minute is great).1

Bad parts:
- You have to burn that feat on Wis-save proficiencies if you don't wanna be a mindslave. It's not a bad feat but I prefer free ASIs to pick up cool stuff.
- While you have some non-combat utility, you're still a Fighter so you don't get to do that much cool stuff when not fighting.
- Your damage, while good, isn't quite on the level of a Samurai or a Battlemaster (Fire Rune sadly is your only real damage ability and fire damage has reliability issues and it's just 2d6 with save fo ~4d6 more 1/SR). You're still a Fighter so your damage is decent no matter what you do though.
- There's a real lull where Fighter normally has a lull. You get nothing of note from level 8 to level 14 except for the Extra Attack (2) on level 11 and one more rune on level 10.
- While runes give you some stuff to do, your turns are still largely the same. Runes and Runic Shield mostly compete for your reaction and let you do some cool stuff out of turn but on your turn you're still largely just full attacking after maybe turning big.

[Spo]

Samurai is simple, but effective. It's pretty much what I think the Champion should've been: a bunch of turns you just decide you have advantage and can lay down a world of hurt. Obviously goes great with Elven Accuracy but it's effective without it. The big drawback is that until level 10, you only have 3 uses of it per long rest unlike with most Fighter subclasses. This means you generally want to combine it with Action Surge when you really need to lay the hurt on something right now. It also gets Wis save proficiencies, something most Fighters would love to have but have no access to: saves you the feat in taking Resilient: Wisdom (meaning you can take Resilient in either Dex or a secondary mental save or use the ASI for offense instead).

Good parts:
- Getting to be a relatively smooth talker from Tier 2 on (getting Wis + Cha in Persuasion is comparable to having Expertise on this level if you have decent Wis and Cha)
- Especially on level 5+, those Fighting Spirit Action Surge "blenderize you tender" turns. Especially if you are an elf archer with Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter: this lets you do that Legolas impression.
- Rapid Strike is strong and feels kinda cool. It comes late but essentially being able to add an additional arrow (or slash) to your volley (or barrage) as long as you've got advantage (which you've always got at least one of for each encounter) is sweet. This fits the samurai aesthetics quite well (not the kiai one, the other one) and the whole Fighter class like a punch to the eye.

Bad parts:
- Really samey. You do the same thing every fight every turn for 18 levels, pretty much. Okay, up until level 10 your management of Fighting Spirit is at least a bit relevant but on level 10+, you just want to Fighting Spirit your 3 LR uses away ASAP and then get that 1 free one per encounter for the rest of the day.
- Needs bonus action for fighting spirit. This makes feats like Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert far less useful than to normal fighters, though XBE is probably something you still want as a ranged Samurai just for those turns when you don't have Fighting Spirit uses left (there'll be plenty).
- Stacks poorly with sources of Temporary HP. Fighting Spirit gives you some extra durability in the form of temporary HP but as they don't stack, this goes poorly with Twilight Clerics, Inspiring Leaders, Shepherd Druids, etc. You generally want to optimise the timing of Fighting Spirit for the maximal value of the advantage, not the temp HP, so you don't gain that much from this unless you're in a duel where you're taking damage every round.
- The power level is average. Simple is rarely that strong. It's strong at hitting things hard but Battlemaster is probably stronger there (especially since Advantage can be gotten from other sources), and it lacks other things to make up for this.


Rune Knight is by comparison a much more varied class. If you're into spellcasters, I would definitely recommend Rune Knight simply to keep up the variety unless this is a one-shot or the like. You have your choice of 6 different runes each with a constant and an activated ability. Aside from Frost Rune, the runes are all decent (though mind that the save DCs are Con-based, which makes Stone Rune's activated ability significantly worse than otherwise) and Giant's Might is seriously cool (though feels more like a Barbarian than a Fighter ability). The invoked abilities are often quite action efficient (reactions typically) and recovered on short rest too, which is really nice. The latter abilities before level 15 are nothing to write home about though Runic Shield gives you a decent tool for protecting allies (generally you want another frontliner to use it with for it to produce consistent value) and your Reaction economy is pretty tight.

Good parts:
- You get to customise what you want to shine at with your runes, especially from level 7 onwards.
- You're basically a Barbarian with Fighter's extra attack progression and such once you get Hill Giant Rune on level 7 (you'll probably always want it prepared) except with none of the restrictions of Rage (but yours is 1/SR until 15 while theirs is ~4/LR). This is to say you're really tough to put down.
- Barbarian with Extra Attack (2) and eventually (3) is an insanely good grappler since grapple actions use attacks and thus extra attack is superb with them. Further, you get Large size which lets you grapple up to Huge (and on level 18, up to Gargantuan: time to suplex Tiamat!) as the only class without having to change shape. Do consider Skill Expert: Athletics.
- You get some decent non-combat utility from the runes (all but Hill Rune have somewhat relevant non-combat abilities - Storm Rune in particular granting advantage on 1 check/round to anyone for a minute is great).1

Bad parts:
- You have to burn that feat on Wis-save proficiencies if you don't wanna be a mindslave. It's not a bad feat but I prefer free ASIs to pick up cool stuff.
- While you have some non-combat utility, you're still a Fighter so you don't get to do that much cool stuff when not fighting.
- Your damage, while good, isn't quite on the level of a Samurai or a Battlemaster (Fire Rune sadly is your only real damage ability and fire damage has reliability issues and it's just 2d6 with save fo ~4d6 more 1/SR). You're still a Fighter so your damage is decent no matter what you do though.
- There's a real lull where Fighter normally has a lull. You get nothing of note from level 8 to level 14 except for the Extra Attack (2) on level 11 and one more rune on level 10.
- While runes give you some stuff to do, your turns are still largely the same. Runes and Runic Shield mostly compete for your reaction and let you do some cool stuff out of turn but on your turn you're still largely just full attacking after maybe turning big.

Super interesting analysis. Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts on this. I have a Rune Knight on my "to do" list and your post educated me on the subclass.

[GutterFace]

Everyone, amazing stuff. Thank you all I love these in depth analysis!

[Entessa]

Please Eldariel, do an analysis of the other subclasses, e.g: Battle master.

By the way, have you published any posts as insightful as this one ?

[RogueJK]

I've found the Samurai to be more well-rounded than many other Fighters.

Samurais get an additional skill proficiency and +WIS to Persuasion, so they can be a fairly effective Face with just a moderate investment in WIS and CHA, coupled with and Insight and Persuasion proficiency. They also get a third save proficiency in WIS, which is especially nice since the majority of the nasty save-or-suck effects are WIS-based. (You can even make a WIS-SAD Samurai with something like the Magic Initiate Druid feat, or a 1 level dip into Nature Cleric or Druid, although that is probably too close to "the usual" for the OP specifically.)


Rune Knights similarly get a selection of nice passive skill bonuses from their runes, adding to their out of combat utility.

[stoutstien]

The range samurai fighter is a turret, a melee samurai fighter is a cruise missile, and the rune knight is what happens if a barbarian and warlock had a baby.

[LudicSavant]

I've always ended up playing Clerics and druids and assorted casters and am going to finally be a fighter. I love both samurai and rube knight. I am not a min/max power gamer so I am looking for real opinions of people whom have tried either or both and let me know what you think are their fun and exciting parts are. And maybe lame parts too

I concur with pretty much everything Eldariel said.

Do you find the simplicity of a Champion attractive, but want more oomph? Consider Samurai. They synegize neatly with archery, free up an ASI you’d otherwise spend on res:wis, and generally have a simple and direct gameplan.

It’s strong relative to its simplicity (though simple is rarely best in this game).

Do you want more complexity? Rune Knight is very potent, with efficient control and support features. One of the strongest Fighter subclasses.

[ImproperJustice]

I’ve seen two different Samurai in action, one was a Half Even Dex based Archer and the other a Variant Human w/ Heavy Armor and Great Weapon Mastery.

Both handled soooo differently, but the Half Elf was a turret as someone else described with some good staying power, and had picked up one of the Racial Feats to give them Expertise in Persuasion and was just a really versatile character. Could even stealth some and I think they took Ritual Caster Druid at a later level for some fun fluff to Commune with the land.

The Heavy Armor guy didn’t get as far level wise, but boy was he tough. Heavy Armor Master and the little hp boost coupled with his lawn mowing swing let him step into the gap on multiple occasions and both hold the line and turn it.

Outside of combat, we were doing a fair bit of overland travel and I remember him making a good use of his horse to be more mobile. Out of combat, he was quiet and let others do most of the talking.
Only occasionally speaking up at opportune moments.

They were both a joy to have in the party.

[diplomancer]

One thing I think could be fun is a Con-SAD Dhampir Rune Knight(between advantage amd xpertise athletics, you don't need to increase your Str if you don't want to, though Fighters have enough ASIs to max both Str and Con easily; and as Grappling isbyour main focus, you've not much use for those big weapon feats). Sure, the bite's not that powerful on its own, and eventually you will need some magical item to make the bite's damage magical.

But you're not here really for the bite, though it's a very nice extra. You're here for the High-Speed Spider Climbing Grappler. You can grapple two creatures, run up on walls, and bite away. Some DM adjudication needed if you prone them before running up the wall.

[Pildion]

I've always ended up playing Clerics and druids and assorted casters and am going to finally be a fighter. I love both samurai and rube knight. I am not a min/max power gamer so I am looking for real opinions of people whom have tried either or both and let me know what you think are their fun and exciting parts are. And maybe lame parts too

If you normally go with casters, I would recommend Rune Knight. You'll have come caster like abilities, so your not going cold turkey =p You might like it more then just attacking.

[paladinn]

I've always ended up playing Clerics and druids and assorted casters and am going to finally be a fighter. I love both samurai and rube knight. I am not a min/max power gamer so I am looking for real opinions of people whom have tried either or both and let me know what you think are their fun and exciting parts are. And maybe lame parts too

I know it was a typo, but I just can't resist..

A "rube" knight.. there might be a paladin subclass or build for that somewhere :P

If you really want to fight but don't want it boring, you might consider my hunter/fighter "ranger" alternative..

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...on-Alternative

[ender241]

You guys do realize the OP posted ~10 months ago right? I'm guessing they picked their subclass by now 😋