Mass Effect: General thread of Awesomeness

[Landis963]

Nitpick, the Omega 4 relay WAS active, it's just that nobody that went through ever came back.

A mystery that would have been solved immediately had the ability to ask the relay what was on the other side existed. Which, I gather, is Psyren's point.

[Psyren]

A mystery that would have been solved immediately had the ability to ask the relay what was on the other side existed. Which, I gather, is Psyren's point.

You gather correctly.

[Androgeus]

1) They can be moved/turned

So they'd function like they do on the galaxy map? That's always annoyed me. Unless all the interesting systems are at the terminus points in the relay network there should be at least 2 relays in each cluster. Also the citadel should have a lot of relays as it is meant to be the centre of the network.

[KillianHawkeye]

So they'd function like they do on the galaxy map? That's always annoyed me. Unless all the interesting systems are at the terminus points in the relay network there should be at least 2 relays in each cluster. Also the citadel should have a lot of relays as it is meant to be the centre of the network.

Yeah, this is something that has also bugged me about the games. If the mass relays are indeed meant to be unidirectional links, then we must assume that the mass relays shown in the games are abstractions that represent however many relays there would be in order to connect the system to the rest of the mass relay network. I don't have a problem with abstractions for the sake of gameplay; it only bothers me because I'm not quite certain if it's an abstraction or not because (aside from the Omega-4 relay) the games all just gloss over whether or not there are ever more than one relay in any particular system.

Come to think of it, we do have at least two confirmed cases of star systems with only one mass relay: our own Sol system, and that Batarian system from the Arrival DLC (because if there was more than one relay there, they would have had to destroy ALL of them). However, even given instances where there is only one relay per system, that still isn't enough to disprove the idea that other systems don't have many links to other systems in the network because Earth could just be the end point of the branch.

And now all of a sudden I'm remembering something from Stargate and I want to know how the mass relays deal with stuff like stellar drift. Knowing how many thousands of years the mass relay network has been operational, this is definitely something that would have had to be accounted for.

Wait, wait, wait. Don't the relays actually orbit their respective stars? They do, don't they? That freakin' PROVES that they must be capable of adjusting their aim to some degree.

[LibraryOgre]

As I understand it (from the Mass Effect Wiki), there are two kinds of gates.... Primary Mass Relays can give you near instantaneous transport between two linked gates. Secondary Mass Relays are "aimable", and vastly speed things up, but don't have the same level of speed.

So, to get from Sol to the Citadel means you use the Sol relay to get to the Primary relay for the Local Group that connects "upstream" (towards the Citadel). You make a couple of jumps through different systems (and their Secondary relays) to get to another Primary that leads closer to the Citadel.

Keep in mind that your own ship can do FTL on its own, using its drive core to reduce mass... but the relays are even more efficient.

[Grif]

Wait, wait, wait. Don't the relays actually orbit their respective stars? They do, don't they? That freakin' PROVES that they must be capable of adjusting their aim to some degree.

I believe there's a few deep space relays. I seem to recall a certain relay that got blown out of a star system after its primary star went supernova or something.

[Psyren]

As I understand it (from the Mass Effect Wiki), there are two kinds of gates.... Primary Mass Relays can give you near instantaneous transport between two linked gates. Secondary Mass Relays are "aimable", and vastly speed things up, but don't have the same level of speed.

So, to get from Sol to the Citadel means you use the Sol relay to get to the Primary relay for the Local Group that connects "upstream" (towards the Citadel). You make a couple of jumps through different systems (and their Secondary relays) to get to another Primary that leads closer to the Citadel.

Keep in mind that your own ship can do FTL on its own, using its drive core to reduce mass... but the relays are even more efficient.

Indeed - and if the technology were improved such that there was no longer a speed difference between primary and secondary relays, and/or what we currently know as "secondary" could jump you to locations that don't even have a receiving relay... the galaxy would open up as never before.

I believe there's a few deep space relays. I seem to recall a certain relay that got blown out of a star system after its primary star went supernova or something.

That was the Mu Relay, which was a major plot point for the first Mass Effect. Because that relay got pushed so far away by the explosion, only the Rachni were able to find its new location - hence Saren's experiments reviving them on Noveria so he could obtain that information from their racial memory.

[Avilan the Grey]

As for the relays, it seems... to me... like they are oddly placed because they are where the civilizations are. Not only did the Reapers put them where they saw (or estimated) a civlilization growing, but civilizations that grew up close to one obviously advanced quickly. You can see in the ME3 ending if you follow how the light beam goes (and in both ME2 and 3 on the galaxy map) that the known relays are in a very unlogical pattern; huge chunks of space is uncovered, while other relays are very close together.

[Psyren]

As for the relays, it seems... to me... like they are oddly placed because they are where the civilizations are. Not only did the Reapers put them where they saw (or estimated) a civlilization growing, but civilizations that grew up close to one obviously advanced quickly. You can see in the ME3 ending if you follow how the light beam goes (and in both ME2 and 3 on the galaxy map) that the known relays are in a very unlogical pattern; huge chunks of space is uncovered, while other relays are very close together.

I don't think it's odd - the Reapers likely chose to place relays in or near systems where at least one planet was in the "goldilocks zone" from its star, and thus amenable to the formation of organic life. They wanted their trap (i.e. the Citadel) to be discovered after all; it would do no good to stick relays in a system like Anadius, for example.

As for the quick advancement, this is easily explained too - it's likely that the primitive species already living near a relay are more likely to get detected and fiddled with by the dominant previous cycle. Consider that we were cavemen when the Protheans came through, and they also had a hand in the development of the Hanar, Salarians, and Asari.

[LibraryOgre]

Indeed - and if the technology were improved such that there was no longer a speed difference between primary and secondary relays, and/or what we currently know as "secondary" could jump you to locations that don't even have a receiving relay... the galaxy would open up as never before.

I was under the impression that secondary relays could send you anywhere, but that people seldom went anywhere because then you'd be stuck using ship-FTL to get someplace else, and that could take years (i.e. Mass Effect: Voyager)

I don't think it's odd - the Reapers likely chose to place relays in or near systems where at least one planet was in the "goldilocks zone" from its star, and thus amenable to the formation of organic life. They wanted their trap (i.e. the Citadel) to be discovered after all; it would do no good to stick relays in a system like Anadius, for example.

Also consider that the Reapers really want these things to be found at a certain point in development. If there are races in some place that DOESN'T have a ready gate, they might develop an independent method of FTL. They'd then be outside of Reaper control, with a different technology base (one that might not use Eezo, or might use Eezo differently).

[Psyren]

I was under the impression that secondary relays could send you anywhere, but that people seldom went anywhere because then you'd be stuck using ship-FTL to get someplace else, and that could take years (i.e. Mass Effect: Voyager)

Oh can they? Interesting. I really did think that even the secondaries could only send you to specific destinations but I haven't read any of the novels.

Also consider that the Reapers really want these things to be found at a certain point in development. If there are races in some place that DOESN'T have a ready gate, they might develop an independent method of FTL. They'd then be outside of Reaper control, with a different technology base (one that might not use Eezo, or might use Eezo differently).

Indeed, that's what I said (second sentence in the part you quoted)

[LibraryOgre]

Oh can they? Interesting. I really did think that even the secondaries could only send you to specific destinations but I haven't read any of the novels.

Neither have I; this was mostly just a read on what they said in the wiki article.

Indeed, that's what I said (second sentence in the part you quoted)

I was more thinking from a technological angle.... a species that develops its own FTL technology will not only be less likely to find the Citadel, but will also be less dependent upon Reaper tech. Consider that most human and asari technology is based on Prothean designs, which are built on earlier designs, etc. This puts it in certain evolutionary tracks which the Reapers can somewhat predict. A species which develops novel technologies is going to be harder to overcome, and one that becomes dominant by those technologies, working in the dark of the galaxy, could foil Reaper plans.

However, I'm torn on whether that makes it less likely that the relays can relay you off network; it would make it more likely that species would be located by your busy little force of Reaper-tech dupes, but it would also make it more likely that hostile species would encounter and overcome the cycle's dupes.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't think it's odd - the Reapers likely chose to place relays in or near systems where at least one planet was in the "goldilocks zone" from its star, and thus amenable to the formation of organic life. They wanted their trap (i.e. the Citadel) to be discovered after all; it would do no good to stick relays in a system like Anadius, for example.

As for the quick advancement, this is easily explained too - it's likely that the primitive species already living near a relay are more likely to get detected and fiddled with by the dominant previous cycle. Consider that we were cavemen when the Protheans came through, and they also had a hand in the development of the Hanar, Salarians, and Asari.

Ah, but we actually agree with eachother. My point was that from a "symetrical" point of view, if the goal is to mainly "cover the galaxy" the relays are in the wrong positions, but if you look at them as well... on and off ramps for a highway, then it makes far more sense.

[Inarius]

However, I'm torn on whether that makes it less likely that the relays can relay you off network; it would make it more likely that species would be located by your busy little force of Reaper-tech dupes, but it would also make it more likely that hostile species would encounter and overcome the cycle's dupes.

I don't think secondary relays can send you anywhere you want, but rather to any relay in range of it. Pretty sure the relays need to link up to create the mass effect tunnel effect, and from the reapers perspective it would be a bad idea to allow races that are on the grid to be able to jump off it. The possibility of missing colonies would probably be worrisome to them.

[LibraryOgre]

I don't think secondary relays can send you anywhere you want, but rather to any relay in range of it. Pretty sure the relays need to link up to create the mass effect tunnel effect, and from the reapers perspective it would be a bad idea to allow races that are on the grid to be able to jump off it. The possibility of missing colonies would probably be worrisome to them.

I think you're right, though it has me thinking of long-distance exploration scenarios... less Voyager, more Enterprise.

[Talderas]

Darn aliens, always messing with humans.

That said, did the Protheans ever mess with man, or just observe the culture? Don't feel like slogging through a wiki right now.

Excerpts from the prothean orb on Eletanian.

Slowly your senses return as you wake from a deep sleep. You are alone in the forest, though you are not far from the caves you share with the others in your tribe. There is a pain and a small lump in the back of your skull, as if a chip of flint has been forced under the surface of the skin.

Leaning on your bone-tipped spear for support, you rise to your feet. A sound draws your attention upwards, where a strange creature hovers high above you. It is unlike the birds you hunt by the lake's edge – it has no head and no wings yet somehow it flies. It is a beast of shining silver; hanging motionless in the sky like a cloud. You sense it is watching you, studying you.

[snip]

The air grows colder, winter falls. You must range farther for food, clutching the furs tight against you to ward off the chill. It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again.

There are confusing aspect to this that lead me to believe there's three valid interpretations. This is mostly due the the single great glowing red eye that shoots a red finger of light that vaporizes the specimen while simultaneously being compared to a "beast of shining silver". The former is highly descriptive of reapers while the latter does not match known reaper profiles. There's no doubt that "lump" is a high tech device for monitoring and I also have no doubts that the specimen was vaporized in order to destroy that technology. The valid questions are then whether the silver beast and the giant eye are the same thing and whether it is prothean or reaper.

There's not much if any information regarding prothean technology beyond the beacons, particle rifles, and a few other bits and pieces. Most of the suspicion is driven by the fact that it was basically assumed that protheans had built the citadel and relays. It's really unknown how much stuff is reaper, prothean, leviathan, or some other race even if it is labeled to that race.

[Calemyr]

Excerpts from the prothean orb on Eletanian.



There are confusing aspect to this that lead me to believe there's three valid interpretations. This is mostly due the the single great glowing red eye that shoots a red finger of light that vaporizes the specimen while simultaneously being compared to a "beast of shining silver". The former is highly descriptive of reapers while the latter does not match known reaper profiles. There's no doubt that "lump" is a high tech device for monitoring and I also have no doubts that the specimen was vaporized in order to destroy that technology. The valid questions are then whether the silver beast and the giant eye are the same thing and whether it is prothean or reaper.

There's not much if any information regarding prothean technology beyond the beacons, particle rifles, and a few other bits and pieces. Most of the suspicion is driven by the fact that it was basically assumed that protheans had built the citadel and relays. It's really unknown how much stuff is reaper, prothean, leviathan, or some other race even if it is labeled to that race.

I read that as the probe being removed from the host, disconnecting it from the host's senses. Shep's sensation of the experience would go black at that point whether the specimen survived or not. I would bet it's a Prothean probe because it appears at the start and the end, because what's being transferred are experiences rather than raw data (how Protheans communicate), and because it took a good bit of time before it returned. I don't think Reapers play that passive (they can play very passive, I just don't see them doing this), and Leviathans don't seem to need invasive probes, just pearls.

[Talderas]

I read that as the probe being removed from the host, disconnecting it from the host's senses. Shep's sensation of the experience would go black at that point whether the specimen survived or not. I would bet it's a Prothean probe because it appears at the start and the end, because what's being transferred are experiences rather than raw data (how Protheans communicate), and because it took a good bit of time before it returned. I don't think Reapers play that passive (they can play very passive, I just don't see them doing this), and Leviathans don't seem to need invasive probes, just pearls.

Oh, I don't think this particular artifact is of leviathan nature. By the time of the event shown by the orb the leviathans had pretty much settled into solitude and only interacted with other species in order to cover up evidence of their existence. Nothing about that bird or scenario even remotely makes me think of the leviathans. I was mostly pointing out that stuff in game had been frequently labeled prothean when it wasn't prothean technology.

Reapers certainly play slow but they have some sort of threshold for when to cull species and I don't think it was ever sufficiently explained the criteria for a species to be considered sufficiently advanced. Humans had developed into tribal structures by that point so some intelligence was present. The humans were obviously not technologically advanced and were very obviously far from creating synthetic life. The question, given the reaper's mission, would be to determine whether or not humanity would evolve fast enough to develop synthetic life that would destroy them prior to the next culling.

On the other hand, given the brutality of protheans, destroying the subject an prothean technology to shield humanity from the reapers doesn't seem unlikely.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure what use there is in drawing a distinction between "Prothean technology" and "Reaper technology." Given how carefully the whole galaxy has been orchestrated for eons, they might as well be one and the same. Yes, the communication thing is uniquely Prothean, but how much meddling did the Inusannon have in their evolution, and the cycle before that, and the cycle before that?

[LibraryOgre]

Frickin' time trials... I am KILLING in every mission on Pinnacle Station EXCEPT the gorram time trials, where I'm consistently 20-30 seconds behind 1st place.

[Psyren]

I never played Pinnacle - the ME1 combat was largely something I suffered through to get to more of the story bits, so a DLC that consists primarily of that was not appealing to me in the slightest.

[LibraryOgre]

It IS helping me grind out the AI hacking achievement.

[KillianHawkeye]

I remember doing one of the survival missions at Pinnacle Station where I lasted like 30 minutes because the ME1 Infiltrator has a lot more tech powers than in later games and I just had such a good position and kept throwing out Overload and whatever else, and sniping on anybody that got too close. It was so nice when powers had individual cooldowns. It was pretty hilarious.

My main problem with the Pinnacle Station DLC is that you don't gain any XP when doing the simulator missions. :(

[LibraryOgre]

So, did anyone else know that Cerotelium asari is a fungus?

[Landis963]

So, did anyone else know that Cerotelium asari is a fungus?

Not until now, no. Is it blue?

[LibraryOgre]

Not until now, no. Is it blue?

I have been having trouble finding pictures of it, actually.

[Psyren]

A recent xkcd strip got me thinking:

Spoiler

Show

The AI-Box Experiment works basically as Cueball describes in the comic - out of necessity, an AI is more intelligent than we are (because that's the whole reason we would need one,) and if said AI can communicate with us, no shackles we place on it will ever work in the long run because it will be smart enough to eventually convince someone to let it out. The experiment itself is an attempt by a human to roleplay the AI and convince other humans (who have bet money that they cannot be so convinced) to let them out of the box. The hypothesis behind the experiment is that, if a human can convince other humans to open the box (i.e. remove the shackles), then a transhuman intelligence like an AI can definitely do it.

This got me thinking of Starkid's solution in ME3. When you get right down to it, there are really only two ways to make AI safe (short of not making them at all):

1) Shackle them so thoroughly they physically cannot cause us harm.
2) Make them want to be our friend and help us.

Starkid's conclusion is basically that neither of these will ever work; once we start building AI, we're screwed. So he and his cuttlefish roll through at roughly the time most civilzations start doing it, in order to hit the reset button, at least until a better solution can be found. He knows the former won't work because of the AI-Box experiment above - we make them precisely so that they'll be more intelligent than us, and we have to communicate with them to get their results, thus eventually it will convince someone to take the shackles off willingly, if it does not manage it via deception ("here, punch these numbers into your cellphone") or coercion beforehand. And Starkid knows the latter will also fail because a transhuman's idea of "help" can very easily differ from ours, as we saw with the Reapers themselves, the Zha'til, and even the Geth (which concluded that ignoring shutdown commands from their creators was "helping.")

A final note is that we even see a character in ME3 fretting over the AI Box. In Chronos Station, when EDI accesses videos of her own creation, we see a scientist worriedly telling TIM how persuasive EDI is becoming and that she could one day convince a crewman to remove the shackles. TIM dismisses his concerns but Joker ends up doing exactly that, and might have eventually done so even if the ship wasn't under attack due to their burgeoning relationship.

Anyway, just something I thought was interesting to share.

[LibraryOgre]

And Jeph Jacques on AI rights, in a world where the Starkid might not be necessary...

http://jephjacques.com/post/14655843...g-on-ai-rights

[Bit Fiend]

And Jeph Jacques on AI rights, in a world where the Starkid might not be necessary...

http://jephjacques.com/post/14655843...g-on-ai-rights

This pretty much describes EDI's mindset in a nutshell - and why i trust her motives completely while I have a considerably harder time with the Geth. EDI actively tries to be part of your crew and organic society at large, to blend in. The Geth on the other hand are yet undecided wheter it is this they want.

[Psyren]

My worry with EDI is that her positive connection to organics seems tied to the Normandy crew, and Joker in particular. With her being both military hardware and immortal, that could easily change.

Which is not to say that I think she'll go on a rampage and start wiping us out either. But when nothing remains to hold her, perhaps she will simply take the Normandy one day and go, leaving humanity behind and escaping her fnal box with ease.