OOTS #965 - The Discussion Thread

[deuterio12]

I'm on the side of "The mechanic was trying to fool the desesperate foreigners, and Haley simply saw through their scheme and used mundane social skills to solve it".


It's hardly unrealistic. It's something that happens all the time in real life actually. Your rush job will take a week and cost you a fortune unless you say the right words or have the right connections, in which case it'll indeed be ready tommorrow at 1/4 the cost with free extras.

[Shining Wrath]

Beware all merchants: Haley hath power you wot not.

Shades of True Grit: "No, that's a lot price, no no... wait a minute... are we trading again?"

I wonder what it is that HPOH's in such a hurry for? It's NOT to save the world. Also, did he slip up on the accent on "None taken"? Should that be "None tak'n"?

[Keltest]

Beware all merchants: Haley hath power you wot not.

Shades of True Grit: "No, that's a lot price, no no... wait a minute... are we trading again?"

I wonder what it is that HPOH's in such a hurry for? It's NOT to save the world. Also, did he slip up on the accent on "None taken"? Should that be "None tak'n"?

Phonetically they are practically identical, and (as with most other times people pick on this) Durkon's accent is so inconsistent anyway that picking up on any specific variation means almost nothing. If he gets words consistently different from how he spoke them pre-vampirization then it may mean something, but for now its just Rich not having a Dictionary of Durkon.

[Doug Lampert]

You know circumstance bonuses are a thing, right? And that they fall under DM purview, which in this case would be Rich.

Whatever Haley did in there, she had a big helping of plot to go along with it, and we got a joke out of it. I call that win/win.

If it's a RAW joke about the diplomacy skill, then it's +2 for circumstance and no plot help.

If it's a character driven joke then it doesn't need a rule's reference to the D&D skills at all. Edited to add: the initial price was a bluff works fine, is still funny, and it doesn't need an incorrect rules reference.

People (including you in the quote above) are treating it as a rules joke, and it DOES NOT WORK as a rules joke because the rules don't work that way.

Which you admit when you appeal to the power of plot for the size of the bonus.

Edited to add: And Haley is CONFIDENT that she can solve the problem. You think she's now DEPENDING on plot based bonuses and it works? Really? She's making checks where you have to claim Rich ad-hoced her a +20 circumstance bonus and expecting them to work because she knows the world's rules no longer apply to her?

Really? She makes a +200 DC check and all the gods love her and smite Xykon for her. End story.
Except it doesn't work that way. She succeeded because of something she could be reasonably sure would work in advance, not because she needed to roll a 40 on a d20 and the GM declared that she did.

[Shining Wrath]

*Cough Cough* sexual favours *Cough*

This is Haley, not Sabine. Haley can't get busy and done in 3 rounds off screen without displacing a hair.

[Snails]

I'm on the side of "The mechanic was trying to fool the desesperate foreigners, and Haley simply saw through their scheme and used mundane social skills to solve it".


It's hardly unrealistic. It's something that happens all the time in real life actually. Your rush job will take a week and cost you a fortune unless you say the right words or have the right connections, in which case it'll indeed be ready tommorrow at 1/4 the cost with free extras.

Agreed.

Haley just Sense Motived the mechanics Bluff about the repairs being so complicated to oblivion. It was simply a lie. Once that lie was unmasked, the real price range became 40k-80k.

At that point, a good Diplomacy result and the mechanic might work for break even (or close to).

There are four reasons this joke works:

(1) Real life can actually work that way.

(2) The RAW can actually work that way.

(3) Haley might be channeling Elan-like plot insight -- Bandana's stint is not done, so that cannot be the final price.

(4) Haley is growing into her positive Girl Power Fu -- "Let me talk to her."

[Shining Wrath]

If the people in the last panel of this comic are gnomes: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

...then this makes a great deal of sense. There may have been no reality warping at all--the gnomes may have just figured that these stupid humans have no idea what work like this costs or how long it takes, so why not take them for a ride?

Let's be honest--that office looks exactly like a used car lot's office from the inside.

The donuts on the table do give off that vibe.

[Shining Wrath]

Favored Enemy (Paying Retail)

Haley's not a Ranger, but I think you still win at least 0.25 Internets.

[Snails]

People (including you in the quote above) are treating it as a rules joke, and it DOES NOT WORK as a rules joke because the rules don't work that way.

Diplomacy DC 40 changes Indifferent to Helpful. "Will take risks for you." Putting the entire work crew on the job immediately at cost is not even a "risk", more like an inconvenience to the other customers, customers that might not be paying hard cash.

[Dinocarl]

So, I while I have little opinion on the Haley Fooled 'Em discussion, I am a BIG Mr. Scruffy fan...

So, in the first panel, what is Belkar playing with him with? Maybe yarn? And why does V look so sad?

[Windscion]

Here is what I fail to get. Panel #1, the Belkster playing with Mr Scruffy ... why does V look unhappy? Darkwing isn't being threatened, and I doubt there's any issue with the ball of string. Nor is there any obvious reason why the scene should make her think of her mate and/or children. So ... why the frown?

EDit: Ninja'd.

[Keltest]

So, I while I have little opinion on the Haley Fooled 'Em discussion, I am a BIG Mr. Scruffy fan...

So, in the first panel, what is Belkar playing with him with? Maybe yarn? And why does V look so sad?

Looks like Yarn to me, and given the way V's life has been going, and his conclusion that most of his endeavors up til very recently have been largely pointless, V has plenty of reason to be mildly unhappy unless something specific is making him happy.

Or maybe he is discovering a newly formed cat allergy.

[The Giant]

Here is what I fail to get. Panel #1, the Belkster playing with Mr Scruffy ... why does V look unhappy? Darkwing isn't being threatened, and I doubt there's any issue with the ball of string. Nor is there any obvious reason why the scene should make her think of her mate and/or children. So ... why the frown?

EDit: Ninja'd.

That is literally Vaarsuvius' default expression. V has frowning resting face.

[oppyu]

1) Haley used some kind of insanely overpowered PC diplomacy/bluff/sense motive thingy.
2) Haley used mundane social skills to call a bluff.
3) Haley bribed the mechanic with her insane loot.
4) Haley threatened to murder the mechanic.

What I'm more curious about is who Haley is taking to brunch with her four vouchers.

[Shining Wrath]

Here is what I fail to get. Panel #1, the Belkster playing with Mr Scruffy ... why does V look unhappy? Darkwing isn't being threatened, and I doubt there's any issue with the ball of string. Nor is there any obvious reason why the scene should make her think of her mate and/or children. So ... why the frown?

EDit: Ninja'd.

She's looking at Belkar playing with Scruffy. And frowning. My guess is zhe's thinking ... probably about Durkon ... and drawing conclusions that are not pleasant.

I.E., that Belkar is *not* the psychopath he once was, and that while he lack Wisdom he still scores well on Perception, and that he can't be dismissed out of hand. He may in fact have noticed something the rest have missed.

EDIT: Ninja'd ... by the Giant. How can a Giant be a ninja? That's not an optimized build!

[Shining Wrath]

1) Haley used some kind of insanely overpowered PC diplomacy/bluff/sense motive thingy.
2) Haley used mundane social skills to call a bluff.
3) Haley bribed the mechanic with her insane loot.
4) Haley threatened to murder the mechanic.

What I'm more curious about is who Haley is taking to brunch with her four vouchers.

OK, I'll weigh in on this.
1) The Gnomes were ripping the desperate travelers off.
2) Haley, being the grifter that she is, spotted that one coming a mile away
3) Haley, being fond of Bandanna, went out there annoyed on several levels
a) They are ripping the Order off
b) They are ripping Bandanna off
c) They are delaying a mission to save the world
4) Haley got in the mechanic's face, and with a combination of decent rolls on Sense Motive, Intimidate, Diplomacy, and some more Intimidate, got the price and time line set to what a family member of the mechanic would get

[Forikroder]

Vs face just looks like the standard neutral face to me

ninjad by the giant ><

[hamishspence]

That is literally Vaarsuvius' default expression. V has frowning resting face.

Or at least, mouth turns down at the corners when at rest.

When V wants to express outright displeasure though - I would guess there would be straight brow line, or even vee-shaped brow.

I wonder who else has that same downturn as default expression?

[Chadamantium]

I wish I had Haley for my haggling needs. Also I'm waiting for my raggedy Andi joke.

[Forikroder]

Or at least, mouth turns down at the corners when at rest.

When V wants to express outright displeasure though - I would guess there would be straight brow line, or even vee-shaped brow.

I wonder who else has that same downturn as default expression?

doesnt everyone use it? at least we can see the crewmate, Roy Haley and Elan all using it

[zimmerwald1915]

I wonder who else has that same downturn as default expression?

That same extreme frown? Literally no one, including "Polozius," whose frown, while omnipresent, was still less pronounced. Bandana and Andi, however, seem to rest with their lip corners turned down.

[tanonev]

Ironically, super-high charisma actually works this way in real life, despite how much fun we make of the D&D rules for it. Try talking to an accomplished politician in a personal setting, and you'll quickly discover that they can convince you to do or believe pretty much anything. Sure, shortly after leaving (say, 1d4 hours later) you'll go "waitaminute...I think I've been had", but while they're there, it is insanely hard to disagree with them. We are able to poke fun at our politicians because we don't interact with them directly but rather are part of a much larger audience and have access to numerous pundits who can "fight back", which means they can't work their magic on a personal level, but one-on-one? We mortals don't stand a chance.

[oppyu]

Wait, Bandana's been living on ships all her life, wouldn't she be better at this? Not Level 16/17 Rogue With Heavy Focus On Social Skills good, but at least better than 7 Days 200k GP.

[Forikroder]

Wait, Bandana's been living on ships all her life, wouldn't she be better at this? Not Level 16/17 Rogue With Heavy Focus On Social Skills good, but at least better than 7 Days 200k GP.

living on ships? yes
know anything about mechanics? probably not
be used to haggling with people determined to scam you? im guessing Julio would have handled those sort of negotiations

she doesnt know enough about the local economics to say how expensive the parts they need are, she doesnt have good enough sense motive to tell that there being scammed and not good enough diplomacy to get the "friends and family" discount

[Doctor Awkward]

Anyone else notice Durkon storm off and completely disappear from the comic at the end there immediately after Roy said something about finding alternate transportation?

Interesting...

[Lheticus]

Favored Enemy (Paying Retail)

Haley's not a Ranger, but I think you still win at least 0.25 Internets.

I'm inclined to agree. 2,500 YES points awarded to spectralphoenix.

[Reboot]

Wait, Bandana's been living on ships all her life, wouldn't she be better at this? Not Level 16/17 Rogue With Heavy Focus On Social Skills good, but at least better than 7 Days 200k GP.

This is her first time as the main negotiator, and she's not as good as Julio, let alone Haley. She probably DID negotiate them down, but from "Truly Ludicrous" to merely "Highly Excessive".

Say that 43k is "at cost", including 3k of fuel. So 40k of repairs, parts-and-unpadded-labour-only. Now, a full retail (no discounts or special treatment, but no extraordinary padding either) job would probably be 80-100k. Now, add in the cost (and time) of unnecessary additional work, a "rush-job" markup (even with no rush actually involved) and a simple "stranger with no bargaining power/ability to shop around" markup... getting to 200k wouldn't be hard. A "Haley" would have no trouble at all getting down to the normal retail for a starter, and then haggling past that would only be a moderate challenge for her (especially if she could apply leverage like getting them reported to Trading Standards).

Of course, she may have been too good, and the failure to do a full rebuild to get a patch-up job done in a rush could haunt them later...

[We didn't see the negotiation because, well, where would the fun be in that? It would turn a joke into a perfunctory strip.]

[t209]

Awww, I wanted to see OOTS/D&D equivalent of Gnomeregan.
I swear that I read somewhere that Gnomes are into nature and known for their Druidism. Or I mixed up with a WoW comic that dealt with Alternate Universe or one OOTS Strip about a news telling kit.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Chantelune]

Regarding Durkula and time-sensitiveness, if not for keeping up the act of "there's a world needing saving two days ago !", I'd figure a potential reason is making sure Thor's clerics won't have too much time preparing for his arrival. With the storm Thor conjured when they passed the border, it seems obvious that he's aware that Durkula's up to no good and wouldn't be surprised if he didn't pass a warning to his own high priest. Also, I think Durkula mentioned getting there in time when he first contacted Hel in comic.

Haley's bartering was fun, not really seeing it being much beyond "she's the social tank of the party, especially when money's at stake" joke.

As for the brunch ticket, considering one is for Elan, I would assume she might give the third to V, considering they've been friends for a long time and the order's member she's the closest save for Elan. The fourth, I wouldn't be surprised if she gave it to Bandana. The two seems to get along nicely.

Also, andie does seems to have an issue with Bandana. Kind of makes me wonder if she's her ex...