Magic the Gathering XX: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!

[Duck999]

I thought only Coalition Victory did that.

It was metaphoric, as in if it resolves you will win. Also if you resolve the activation of Door To Nothingness.

[sonofzeal]

I thought only Coalition Victory did that.

Technically, can't someone cast Coalition Victory without actually fulfilling the win conditions? Or, can't someone respond with instant-speed removal to clear off a necessary component of the win condition? I'd expect that to still qualify as "resolves", just that "resolving" doesn't actually do anything under the circumstances.

[Mystic Muse]

There are actually quite a few "you win the game" effects in commander.

[ChaosOS]

For example, there's the classic battle of wits flashed in using Vedalken Orrery on end step after someone board wipes your field of eldrazi that you cast off of Spawnsire of Ulamog, which get shuffled into your library.

[CantigThimble]

I would give a standing ovation to someone who did that. Also I'm imagining they just pull out two spare deck boxes of artisan of kozilek and dump them on the table.

[ChaosOS]

It's EDH, and it fits in any UG deck (I throw in G because it's otherwise unlikely you'll hit 20 mana unless you have serious artifact ramp). Sure, Battle of Wits is a dead card unless you get Spawnsire of Ulamog off, but that's only one card and it's worth it for the story. Vedalken orrery I'm just counting as a generally good card in UG.

[enderlord99]

There are actually quite a few "you win the game" effects in commander.

Yes, but aren't they all permanents? What would be the point of that if you win as soon as the spell resolves?

[Androgeus]

It's EDH, and it fits in any UG deck (I throw in G because it's otherwise unlikely you'll hit 20 mana unless you have serious artifact ramp). Sure, Battle of Wits is a dead card unless you get Spawnsire of Ulamog off, but that's only one card and it's worth it for the story. Vedalken orrery I'm just counting as a generally good card in UG.

You're using your entire collection to get the eldrazi, why not just run some of the wishes, then you can get context sensitive cards?

[Sith_Happens]

You're using your entire collection to get the eldrazi, why not just run some of the wishes, then you can get context sensitive cards?

Because then you aren't winning with Battle of Wits.

[sonofzeal]

More obnoxious newbiedom!

I have two decks, cobbled together out of older cards I inherited, mostly based on thematic elements. I hesitate to call either "tribal" because there's very little real tribal synergy, but both seem to work decently in kitchen table games, not amazigood but reliably solid showings, so I'm happy with them. I recently got a program which lets me input decks and tweak them, and suddenly the sky's the limit. I want to keep the central idea, but ideally produce something that can stand up to other players with equal freedom of selection.

Kithkin

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3 Kithkin Rabble
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Ballynock Cohort
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Æthertow
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Ballynock Trapper
3 Repel Intruders
1 Augury Adept
1 Pentarch Ward
2 Armored Ascension
2 Cerulean Wisps
1 Arctic Aven
1 Surge of Thoughtweft
2 Mistmeadow Skulk
1 Crusade
2 Fire at Will
1 Kinsbaile Balloonist
1 Righteousness
16 Plains
7 Island
1 Breakthrough


Concept: There's a number of cards here that are fantastic defenders throughout the game (Goldmeadow Harriers in particular), giving time for Kithkin Rabble to get out of control, but "Victory Condition" is often Mistmeadow Skulk with Armored Ascension. Or just overwhelm them with cheap, efficient aggro with cards like Ballynock Cohort and Knight of Meadowgrain. There's little removal, but good card draw, a low curve, and plenty of ways to keep up if the game goes long.

Expanding: Definitely four Mistmeadow Skulks, definitely four Armored Ascensions, definitely four Repel Intruders. Beyond that, I'm not as sure. There's a lot of good Kithkin cards out there, and I don't know most of them, and I have a tendency to want to grab 1+ of everything. Wizened Cenn, Brigid Hero of Kinsbaile, and Order of Whiteclay are all tempting. I just don't know how to balance it all out.

Cinders / Phyrexia

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2 Fists of the Demigod
1 Rage Reflection
1 Phyrexian Rager
4 Cinderbones
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Scar
2 Torrent of Souls
1 Eradicate
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Flamekin Harbinger
1 Smokebraider
1 Keldon Mantle
1 Dusk Urchins
1 Takklemaggot
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Phyrexian Arena
2 Ashenmoor Gouger
1 Strafe
1 Slith Bloodletter
1 Gorgon Recluse
1 Terror
1 Spike Jester
1 Midnight Banshee
1 Blowfly Infestation
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Kulrath Knight
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Cast into Darkness
1 Corrosive Mentor
3 Urborg Volcano
14 Swamp
8 Mountain

Concept: -1/-1 tokens, -1/-1 tokens everywhere. Blowfly Infestation + Serrated Arrows + Kulrath Knight is nasty, and Dusk Urchins synergize well too. Too bad I only have one of each. Rounding it out is a number of Phyrexian cards I found fun, a number of good R/B targets for Fists of the Demigod (Spike Jester, Ashenmoor Gouger), and... admittedly a fair amount of random filler, some of which could probably be improved out of my own selection.

Expanding: Four each of Blowfly Infestation, Serrated Arrows, Kulrath Knight, and Dusk Urchins. Cinderbones, of course. Not sure where to go from there though. What do I cut? Is there anything else I should be adding in? The continued use of Fists of the Demigod and its prime targets keeps the Cinder side strong, and rounds out the midgame - and let's face it, I'll need things with actual attack damage to win. Again, the problem is what to cut, and how to balance it all.

Bonus round

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- Are there any cards I have here that have any real value? I'm not particularly looking to sell, but I'm a little curious.

- What "Game Type" would I be looking at, with desks like these?

[unseenmage]

How many Wrath effects should a Tariel (WBR) EDh deck focused on boardsweeping have?

And sorry but card suggestions won't do me much good at present. Just went through every card I owned scrounging up enough 2nd and 3rd tier Wrath effects to make the deck work. Just need advice on the mix.

[ChaosOS]

Entirely depends on your playgroup. You need less if people tend to durdle as they build their armies, more if they're really aggressive about fast build ups. Balance wrath effects with powerful spot removal. Oh, and please include Crackling Doom, it's the best removal spell ever printed. Finally, the best way to make the deck run smoother is include draw effects. I realize mardu has the lowest amount of card draw effects, but there's some good stuff with black and then Chandra Pyromaster can provide some consistent effects.

[sonofzeal]

Rules question - Mistmeadow Skulk can't be targetted by Serrated Arrows, but if I used it on Goldmeadow Harrier while Blowfly Infestation is out, can I move the -1/-1 token to Skulk when Harrier dies?

Basically... what are the limits of "Protection from"?



(Also, I'm still curious what "Game Type" I should be listing as.)

[IcemanJRC]

Rules question - Mistmeadow Skulk can't be targetted by Serrated Arrows, but if I used it on Goldmeadow Harrier while Blowfly Infestation is out, can I move the -1/-1 token to Skulk when Harrier dies?

Basically... what are the limits of "Protection from"?



(Also, I'm still curious what "Game Type" I should be listing as.)

You can move it, protection cares about DEBT: Damage, Enchanting, Blocking, and Targeting. After Serrated Arrows is used on Harrier, the Harrier dies and the Infestation triggers, this Infestation counter is a completely separate entity, and it's not protected so it can target the Skulk and kill it.

[Ninjaman]

You can move it, protection cares about DEBT: Damage, Enchanting, Blocking, and Targeting. After Serrated Arrows is used on Harrier, the Harrier dies and the Infestation triggers, this Infestation counter is a completely separate entity, and it's not protected so it can target the Skulk and kill it.

Excuse me, but I think you are wrong. Blowfly Infestation can't target Mistmeadow Skulk with it's trigger as it has a CMC of 3.

[sonofzeal]

You can move it, protection cares about DEBT: Damage, Enchanting, Blocking, and Targeting. After Serrated Arrows is used on Harrier, the Harrier dies and the Infestation triggers, this Infestation counter is a completely separate entity, and it's not protected so it can target the Skulk and kill it.

Excuse me, but I think you are wrong. Blowfly Infestation can't target Mistmeadow Skulk with it's trigger as it has a CMC of 3.

Hence my question.

Mistmeadow Skulk has to be targetted to get the token, but it's not entirely clear to me whether it's Blowfly Infestation that's doing the targetting since it's neither being played nor using an active ability.


Official wording:

"Mistmeadow Skulk can't be blocked by creatures with converted mana cost 3 or greater. - Mistmeadow Skulk can't be enchanted by Auras with converted mana cost 3 or greater. It also can't be equipped by Equipment with converted mana cost 3 or greater. - Mistmeadow Skulk can't be targeted by spells with converted mana cost 3 or greater. It also can't be targeted by abilities from sources with converted mana cost 3 or greater. - All damage that would be dealt to Mistmeadow Skulk by sources with converted mana cost 3 or greater is prevented"

[IthilanorStPete]

Hence my question.

Mistmeadow Skulk has to be targetted to get the token, but it's not entirely clear to me whether it's Blowfly Infestation that's doing the targetting since it's neither being played nor using an active ability.

Blowfly Infestation is targeting; it has a triggered ability.

[Androgeus]

Because then you aren't winning with Battle of Wits.

You can wish for Battle of Wits.


Also Ninjaman & IthilanorStPete are correct about blowfly infestation not being able to target Mistmedow Skulk.

[sonofzeal]

Another rules question.

I have Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile, boosted to 3/4. My opponent declares three attackers - a 1/1, a 2/2, and a 2/3 Deathtouch. I assign Brigid to block his 2/3 Deathtouch, since she's got enough to kill it.

During the Damage step, before Brigid's First Strike resolves, he cast Boros Charm to make his creatures indestructable. While that's still on the stack, can I tap Brigid to deal two damage to all his creatures and kill the 1/1 and 2/2 before Boros Charm resolves and makes them invulnerable?

Stack rules say any ability I play as a response to Boros Charm resolves first, and I'm 99% sure you can use tap abilities at "instant" speed unless stated otherwise. And Brigid is currently untapped, because you don't have to tap to block. We both agree it still feels kinda wrong though.

Does it work?

[IthilanorStPete]

Another rules question.

I have Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile, boosted to 3/4. My opponent declares three attackers - a 1/1, a 2/2, and a 2/3 Deathtouch. I assign Brigid to block his 2/3 Deathtouch, since she's got enough to kill it.

During the Damage step, before Brigid's First Strike resolves, he cast Boros Charm to make his creatures indestructable. While that's still on the stack, can I tap Brigid to deal two damage to all his creatures and kill the 1/1 and 2/2 before Boros Charm resolves and makes them invulnerable?

Stack rules say any ability I play as a response to Boros Charm resolves first, and I'm 99% sure you can use tap abilities at "instant" speed unless stated otherwise. And Brigid is currently untapped, because you don't have to tap to block. We both agree it still feels kinda wrong though.

Does it work?

Yes, you can freely tap Brigid to use its ability once blockers have been declared, and doing so in response to the Boros Charm will destroy the 1/1 and 2/2. Note that this would be happening in the Declare Blockers step; at the beginning of the step, blockers are declared by the defending player (which doesn't use the stack), then the active player receives priority and both players need to pass priority on an empty stack before moving into the damage step(s).

[sonofzeal]

Yes, you can freely tap Brigid to use its ability once blockers have been declared, and doing so in response to the Boros Charm will destroy the 1/1 and 2/2. Note that this would be happening in the Declare Blockers step; at the beginning of the step, blockers are declared by the defending player (which doesn't use the stack), then the active player receives priority and both players need to pass priority on an empty stack before moving into the damage step(s).

At what point would the opponent need too declare which option of Boros Charm he's using? Could he counter by switching it to "Double Strike", losing all his attackers but killing Brigid via deathtouch in the process?

[Narkis]

At what point would the opponent need too declare which option of Boros Charm he's using? Could he counter by switching it to "Double Strike", losing all his attackers but killing Brigid via deathtouch in the process?

He declares mode as he casts it, when he pays his mana and right before it enters the stack. Can't switch later.

[mrcarter11]

Needing at minimal a 3/5 to deal with a single 4 drop has so many things wrong with it. Once blockers are declared though and it moves into the realm of hey, my first strike kills your creature, Boros Charm should be able to be played and stop the creature from dying, at which point it's **** that you can tap it deal 2 damage to everything..

[ChaosOS]

Given that it's a legendary creature that dies as easily as any other creature to removal and cannot activate it's tap ability the turn it comes into play, it seems reasonable if pushed. Oh, and 3 toughness means a lightning bolt kills it. 1 mana instant for a 4 mana creature is not a good trade for you.

[Eldariel]

Brigid is the kind of a creature that's rough to fight in combat. Thing is, magic is so much more than the combat step. There are ways to go over the top (Tarmogoyf is often a 2-mana 6/7 for instance), but more commonly you have creatures that ignore it (flying, shadow, protection from white, the sort) or simply removal. And some decks can just swarm it by getting a number of X/3s out and just swinging for the fences; one might die but the rest still connect. Finally, it's fully possible to win without using the combat step at all (currently, card draw plus 4xMaster the Way is a fairly easy Standard-legal way of simply burning someone out in a control shell, for instance, especially when coupled with other burn spells that double as removal).

Granted, against token-based strategies are where Brigid is at its strongest.Things Brigid does not do though: It does not kill the opponent very quickly. It does not affect the board the turn you play it (you need to get to untap with it to use its ability). It does not have Vigilance, so it can't attack while using its ability. Likewise, it can't both use it offensively and defensively on the same turn (since you have to tap it one round or the other). Overall, it's a fairly powerful board control effect but plagued by frailty, slowness and the lack of offensive contributions. It's at its best against limited-style decks full of small-medium sized creatures and few synergies or removal spells and a low quantity of things that can go over the top.

[mrcarter11]

Yes and it was running against a real life copy of a Boros deck which would hopefully in a perfect world have better ways of dealing with it, but as a real life deck,, it really doesn't, so the ability to totally nullify any aggro rush is viewed as *********

[Eldariel]

Yes and it was running against a real life copy of a Boros deck which would hopefully in a perfect world have better ways of dealing with it, but as a real life deck,, it really doesn't, so the ability to totally nullify any aggro rush is viewed as *********

I don't really get what you're upset over. Indeed, why would it be undesirable for the game to contain cards good against a specific subset of cards when the deck doesn't draw its removal spells? Sometimes that happens; sometimes everyone loses and it isn't much of a game because one draws the wrong cards or because one draws too few lands or whatever. Yes, sometimes a single card can trump your whole strategy (but that's simple enough to counteract; few miser's copies of some bigger flyers for instance to go over the top, or more removal, or whatever to give you live draws) and you don't draw your answers. I can only imagine e.g. Ensnaring Bridge (with a deck built to keep its hand empty while burning you out) or Teferi's Moat or some such would also be extremely problematic but so what?

There are plenty of white/red cards that can destroy any type of a permanent and there are cards that ignore any given thing trying to stop you from winning. Hell, a boros deck with a bunch of Lightning Bolts, Lightning Strikes and Stoke the Flames, for example, would have a very good chance of drawing something to remove the Brigid and keep on attacking like it weren't there.


It's all a part of the game. Sometimes enemy has trumps to your strategy and you lose to that. Other games enemy has the trump but you have a way to deal with it and keep at it like it weren't there. And other times the enemy never sees their trump, no matter how brutal it is. Sometimes you have the trump instead and you get an effortless win. If you wish to reduce the likelihood of losing to trumps, add few more spells capable of dealing with enemy permanents. You're in excellent colors for them and some of the options are hardly pricey to buy as singles.

E.g. white has very versatile answers like Oblivion Ring or Banishing Light and red has thousands of different burn spells (which also help with killing the opponent after your beatdown has gotten them low); if answers form a significant portion of your deck (say, 10-12 out of 60 cards), chances of you losing to any specific card that trumps your strategy are fairly slim. Of course, it's a trade-off but if you like to always have live draws until you die, having at least one miser's copy of an "answer anything"-card is a nice way to go about it. This is all a part of what makes Magic such an awesome game in the first place.

[sonofzeal]

Pursuant to my post back here, since I didn't get any responses, I tried my own attempts.

Kith and Kin

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17 Plains
6 Island

4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Mistmeadow Skulk
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballynock Cohort
1 Order of Whiteclay
3 Kithkin Rabble
1 Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile

3 Cerulean Wisps
3 Æthertow
3 Repel Intruders
4 Armored Ascension



Pure tribal. Not a single card (besides lands) that doesn't show Kithkin in the picture. Still tweaking it though. Cerulean Wisps in particular is a cantrip, and nice with Harrier and Brigid, but often sits in the hand or tossed just for the card draw. Surge of Thoughtweft has less potential but might be a bit more reliable as a cantrip, but I'm not convinced, and I need blue for Repel Intruders anyway. And I'd like more Rabble, Aethertow, and Repel Intruders, but the 4 mana point is pretty clogged.

Any help?

Tainted Cinders

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8 Mountain
16 Swamp

4 Manaforge Cinder
4 Cinderbones
4 Spike Jester
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Ashenmoor Liege
4 Kulrath Knight

4 Fists of the Demigod
4 Blowfly Infestation
4 Serrated Arrows


Great curve. Haven't playtested this one nearly as much though. I miss the Dusk Urchins and Phyrexian Arena though. Did I go too far in pruning down? Is there still enough here to be viable?

Also, still wondering what's up with "Game Type".

[Androgeus]

Also, still wondering what's up with "Game Type".

Probably to help you sort between decks for different formats, i.e. standard, modern, commander ect.

So I've been getting a bit bored with my EDH decks recently. Currently I have Norin The Wary, Gwafa, Intent, Neskuar and Ruahn. Not really sure what I want to try build next. Anyone got any suggestions?

[houlio]

Probably to help you sort between decks for different formats, i.e. standard, modern, commander ect.

So I've been getting a bit bored with my EDH decks recently. Currently I have Norin The Wary, Gwafa, Intent, Neskuar and Ruahn. Not really sure what I want to try build next. Anyone got any suggestions?

Based on what you have listed, you might enjoy making a Zedruu the Greathearted deck.