Magic the Gathering XX: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!

[sonofzeal]

Based on what you have listed, you might enjoy making a Zedruu the Greathearted deck.

....wazzat?


Any advice on the actual decks?

[Snowbluff]

Probably to help you sort between decks for different formats, i.e. standard, modern, commander ect.

So I've been getting a bit bored with my EDH decks recently. Currently I have Norin The Wary, Gwafa, Intent, Neskuar and Ruahn. Not really sure what I want to try build next. Anyone got any suggestions?

I've been doing an all gods deck.

[Blue Ghost]

Make a theme deck! OOTS, Pokémon, chess, whatever comes to mind. That's what I always do.

[Dumbledore lives]

....wazzat?


Any advice on the actual decks?

Zedruu gives you life and stuff for every permanent an opponent controls that you own. He's RWU, and you fill the deck with things that hurt you, but when you give them to your opponent's then it hurts them. You can also play it group-hug style where you give people positive things so no one hurts you. It's a fun, though gimmicky deck.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm suddenly very curious what happens in the following situation.

I'm playing commander. I play Spawnsire of Ulamog. I activate its ability, pulling an Emrakul the Aeons Torn from my collection, because the group I'm in allows wish effects without sideboards.

Do I lose the game for playing a card that is banned in Commander, or do I just now have a way to play Emrakul in Commander?

[Tvtyrant]

I'm suddenly very curious what happens in the following situation.

I'm playing commander. I play Spawnsire of Ulamog. I activate its ability, pulling an Emrakul the Aeons Torn from my collection, because the group I'm in allows wish effects without sideboards.

Do I lose the game for playing a card that is banned in Commander, or do I just now have a way to play Emrakul in Commander?

I have no idea in a tournament, but in casual if they are enforcing the ban list you probably don't get invited next time.

[Eldariel]

I'm suddenly very curious what happens in the following situation.

I'm playing commander. I play Spawnsire of Ulamog. I activate its ability, pulling an Emrakul the Aeons Torn from my collection, because the group I'm in allows wish effects without sideboards.

Do I lose the game for playing a card that is banned in Commander, or do I just now have a way to play Emrakul in Commander?

I mean, if you're following the banned-list, then I'd say Emrakul is not in your "sideboard" no matter how collection-spanning it is, simply because the card doesn't exist in this format.

[Mystic Muse]

I have no idea in a tournament, but in casual if they are enforcing the ban list you probably don't get invited next time.

In a tournament, the answer is absolutely no, because in a tournament, you either have a sideboard, and it has to be only legal cards, or your have no sideboard and the ability does nothing.

Also, my friends all have decks there are varying levels of stupid as hell, so they'd probably just laugh at it, and ask me not to do it again.

I mean, if you're following the banned-list, then I'd say Emrakul is not in your "sideboard" no matter how collection-spanning it is, simply because the card doesn't exist in this format.

This is basically the answer I was looking for, thanks.

[Duck999]

I made a commander deck based off of Erayo, Soratami Ascentdant before I realized it was banned as commander. I fixed that mistake quickly, though the deck had been really fun. For me, at least.

[Lea Plath]

So. Who would be interested in a commander tournament over cockatrice?

1v1 or multiple player with a points system for meeting certain conditions?

[Ionbound]

I'd be interested once I make a reasonable Commander deck. And, as it happens, I actually have an idea for one.

[Ninjaman]

So. Who would be interested in a commander tournament over cockatrice?

1v1 or multiple player with a points system for meeting certain conditions?

Only if it's french.

[IcemanJRC]

I always love tournaments, I've got a couple of stax stacks itching to get played.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd be interested once I make a reasonable Commander deck. And, as it happens, I actually have an idea for one.

I've had a mostly-finished Melek list since the beginning of the summer, I just have to actually get about half the cards.

EDIT:

I made a commander deck based off of Erayo, Soratami Ascentdant before I realized it was banned as commander. I fixed that mistake quickly, though the deck had been really fun. For me, at least.

I know that feeling, but a lot more so. Early this year I traded my Cryptic Command and a Wooded Foothills for a bunch of good stuff, most prominently including a foil Gifts Ungiven that I wanted for Commander not knowing it's banned. One week later that one Modern Pro Tour (or was it a Grand Prix?) happened and Cryptic Command jumped from $20 to $40.

[Ionbound]

Well, here is my rather silly EDH deck. It is very silly.

[houlio]

....wazzat?


Any advice on the actual decks?

I have a friend who made quite the (in)famous Zedruu deck in my playgroup. It worked as a heavy prison/disruption style deck where it basically stopped anyone else from having strong plays or ways to combo with their deck.

Playing with permanents that cause global effects where the controller doesn't matter are good. Things like Meishin, the Mind Cage and Possibility Storm. Also throwing in a few good old control magic type effects, such as Cultural Exchange or Thieves' Auction also tend to do well in it. The other high impact spell I've seen played was a chaos warp combined with a radiate.

For additional giggles, throw in a Conjured Currency and a Puca's Mischief.

[sonofzeal]

How does a Zedruu deck avoid being rushed down? Heck, in general, if I expect a deck to be vulnerable until turn 4-5, what are good ways to lock down the early game? A 0/4 defender or two hardly seems ideal.

[Ninjaman]

How does a Zedruu deck avoid being rushed down? Heck, in general, if I expect a deck to be vulnerable until turn 4-5, what are good ways to lock down the early game? A 0/4 defender or two hardly seems ideal.

Generally people don't get rushed in commander as aggro is bad in multiplayer. Also by turn 4-5 you usually have something big already.

[Narkis]

Most commander games I've seen had had nothing exciting happen in the fist three to five turns. And in the cases where someone tried to be aggressive early, he got mobed by the rest.

[sonofzeal]

Zedruu just looks like a normal Legendary to me. Can any legendary creature be used as a commander?

[unseenmage]

Zedruu just looks like a normal Legendary to me. Can any legendary creature be used as a commander?

Yes. Yes they can.

[Dumbledore lives]

Zedruu just looks like a normal Legendary to me. Can any legendary creature be used as a commander?

Yeah, I mean originally it was just the Elder Dragons, but now it's pretty much anyone excluding the like one banned commander.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah, I mean originally it was just the Elder Dragons, but now it's pretty much anyone excluding the like one banned commander.

There are multiple banned commanders/legendary creatures.

[Narkis]

Yeah, I mean originally it was just the Elder Dragons, but now it's pretty much anyone excluding the like one banned commander.

They changed it a few months ago, and no cards are banned as commanders anymore. They're either banned from the format entirely, or not at all. That said, there are indeed a few legendary creatures in the banlist.

[Eldariel]

Kith and Kin

Spoiler

Show

17 Plains
6 Island

4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Mistmeadow Skulk
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballynock Cohort
1 Order of Whiteclay
3 Kithkin Rabble
1 Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile

3 Cerulean Wisps
3 Æthertow
3 Repel Intruders
4 Armored Ascension



Pure tribal. Not a single card (besides lands) that doesn't show Kithkin in the picture. Still tweaking it though. Cerulean Wisps in particular is a cantrip, and nice with Harrier and Brigid, but often sits in the hand or tossed just for the card draw. Surge of Thoughtweft has less potential but might be a bit more reliable as a cantrip, but I'm not convinced, and I need blue for Repel Intruders anyway. And I'd like more Rabble, Aethertow, and Repel Intruders, but the 4 mana point is pretty clogged.

Any help?

Principal issue with this is, I have a fairly encyclopedic card memory far as mechanics go but which ones contain kithkin in the image? That's not something I remember nor is it something easy to search for. As such, I'm just going through cards of the era and checking the pictures to see if I can find Kithkin; here you go: So it's hard to recall suggestions for this beyond the obvious ones, most of which you have. The obvious additions are Goldmeadow Stalwart, Figure of Destiny and Cloudgoat Ranger as a scaling low drop that remains relevant all game and a great curve topper finisher, respectively (yes, those small guys in Cloudgoat Ranger's picture are indeed kithkin), but Figure might be rough to get if you're working on a very low budget, and Cloudgoat Ranger itself isn't a Kithkin even if it comes with its entourage of Kithkin Retainers.

Either way, Armored Ascension in a two-color deck feels a bit questionable, as well as a 4-drop. Auras in general are only good if enemy doesn't have removal so they run a substantial risk since you aren't really built around Hexproof or such. Cerulean Wisps are too small an effect to warrant inclusion of an extra color in my opinion; I'd go straight white if I were you. If I were you and wanted to run the Kithkin Rabble, I'd just go mono-white and play a lot of stuff that gives you white permanents (especially tokens, since that way you get multiple permanents for one card). I definitely think you can afford to go more beatdown too:
4 Stalwarts
X Figures (as many as you can get, if any)
4 Cenns

That makes for fearsome openings. They mostly outperform your other creatures; cards like Ballynock Cohort, Mistmeadow Skulk and company are fine but mere fillers. You can also cut the "do little"-spells (Cerulean Wisps, Aethertow, probably the others too; I'll get to alternatives in a moment) for simply more creatures since your deck is full of cards that get better the more creatures you have in play (Wizened Cenn, Kithkin Rabble). You can run 12 1-drops to ensure fast starts and then while the enemy is on the backfoot, force bad blocks and eventually go over the top for the finish. I recall back in Lorwyn-block, Kithkin-decks would often run Mirrorweave or few as finishers too; perhaps something to consider? Mirrorweave a Wizened Cenn for instance with a few Kithkin in play and you're looking at a massive army. Goes doubly well if you play more token-cards like Cloudgoat Rangers (and Ranger itself is a great card to Weave). Other options to go over the top for the kill include Mirror Entity and Thistledown Liege (indeed, if you want to play Mirrorweave, you should play a number of Thistledown Lieges to increase the likelihood of having a team-buffing card to copy).

Of course back then Spectral Procession was a huge part of those decks which simply doesn't contain Kithkin no matter how you look at it. Militia's Pride is another more kithkinny option, but obviously much weaker. If you're willing to overlook the problem on Procession, it's an amazing card that you can take full advantage of in a deck full of small white creatures (goes perfectly with Rabble, obviously), and sits nicely at 3-drop point in the curve where you have little else to cast. Militia's Pride might be something you want to play few of to grind longer games out, but it's not nearly as mana efficient. Windbrisk Heights is also a consideration if going in that direction (it's amazing if it casts stuff like Mirrorweave or Cloudgoat Ranger and perfectly reasonable as long as you get any spell out of it). Indeed, it's an absolutely amazing card if you can at all support it. Other good lands include Rustic Clachan (though careful with the Comes Into Play Tapped-clause) and Mutavault (though careful with the colorless mana). The existence of these multipurpose lands can allow you to go up to a very massive land total while still avoiding the risk of getting flooded by simple virtue of your lands also functioning as spells. Back then it wasn't too rare to run 26 lands since 12 of them are essentially spells, and you have a lot of kithkin who love the overload of mana anyways.


One downside in all this is, I can't think of a single good removal spell with a kithkin on it. Goldmeadow Harrier, Brigid & Mirrorweave are as close as they get (of course you can use Mirrorweave to make enemy team positively tiny, as well) and I can't think of a single good generalist answer like Oblivion Ring or Banishing Light that would match this. Aethertow really just isn't worth splashing blue for since it's so expensive and limited solely to attacking/blocking creatures. Oh yeah, Cenn's Heir is kinda unassuming on its own but a nice way to go far over the top with Mirrorweave, without giving opponent's blockers a chance in hell. It might be something you can play one or two of if you feel the need for more 2-drops (but first, 4 Wizened Cenns and Knights of the Meadowgrains, since those are the best 2-drops you have available). Oh, and if you want some cheap cantrips, Surge of Thoughtweft is always a card.

Overall, the only really good cards you miss out on because of the Kithkin-limitation (provided it doesn't apply to lands) are Oblivion Ring/variants and Spectral Procession.

EDIT: Ah! There's one passable permanently functional creature removal spell (provided you run no X/1 creatures): Crib Swap does indeed have a Kithkin on it. And I suppose the Lorwyn-edition of Oblivion Ring does have some obscure shadows in the edge and it is probably of Kithkin-make so it's not that far off. A reasonable generalist-option.

[mrcarter11]

This is a really generalized question, but can anyone give me ideas on creature lockdown in a blue black deck? I've run into the issue that I have no real way to control that while my deck ramps up. A couple of friends jokingly mentioned Ensnaring Bridge, which is great as an idea, just not actually useful in real life..

[IcemanJRC]

This is a really generalized question, but can anyone give me ideas on creature lockdown in a blue black deck? I've run into the issue that I have no real way to control that while my deck ramps up. A couple of friends jokingly mentioned Ensnaring Bridge, which is great as an idea, just not actually useful in real life..

Ensnaring bridge is the crux of a few decks in modern that use things like Liliana of the Veil, Blood Moon, and Trinisphere to slow down the opponent or completely lock them out in some cases. The Bridge is a good tool unless you decide you absolutely have to have a fistful of cards.

Though if you're still not interested, try Tanglewire, Smokestack, Damnation, Evacuation, and spot removal. Those run the gamut of ways you can control the board.

[IthilanorStPete]

This is a really generalized question, but can anyone give me ideas on creature lockdown in a blue black deck? I've run into the issue that I have no real way to control that while my deck ramps up. A couple of friends jokingly mentioned Ensnaring Bridge, which is great as an idea, just not actually useful in real life..

-Mass bouncing such as Evacuation and variants like Aetherspouts, with Upheaval as the biggest version.
-Tapping down creatures with effects like Frost Blast or Icy Blast.
-Taxing effects like Propaganda, though those are mostly on older cards; that effect's moved into white's part of the color pie.
-Various blue/artifact creatures that are good at controlling the board; Meloku, Keiga, Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Pentavus

Mostly, though, this is why blue control decks add other colors. White gives you innumerable Wrath effects, black has various mass removal options like Damnation.

[mrcarter11]

A lot of that feels too expensive to get out or too expensive to buy.. I've got two consuming aberrations laying around and three glimpses of the unthinkable... I feel like I should put them into something useful. My thought was a blue black mill deck, but all of the prototypes have come up short.. I die too quickly.. I need to quicken the deck, and hence the suggestion of the bridge.. I sadly can't afford that however.

[sonofzeal]

{snipped excellent advice}

Thanks for the extensive analysis!

Armored Ascension - I see your point, but I do still like it. The deck's "two-color" but Plains-dominant. Fair point about making it mono, I'll consider that. But while there's no Hexproof/Shroud, Mistmeadow Skulk's "protection from converted mana cost 3 or greater" is just about as good. There's a few ways to kill a massive body using mana cost 1 or 2, but it does limit a lot of options. Even a Hexproof creature can be blocked by a Vampire Nighthawk. Everything has counterplay, but I like Skulk + Armored Ascension as my win condition.


Good find on Crib Swap and Oblivion Ring! There's a number of cards already with Cinders and Kithkin at eachother's throats, so I'll buy it, especially given the sugar in the recipe.


I'll definitely look into an alternate mono-white deck with a lower curve, more Cenns, and Mirrorweave. That does sound quite fun.