Magic the Gathering XX: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!

[Somensjev]

so, one of my friends decided he doesn't like the commander banned list and is now running both primeval titana and emrakul in his mono-green commander deck, no matter how much the rest of the group asks him to remove them

[Mystic Muse]

so, one of my friends decided he doesn't like the commander banned list and is now running both primeval titana and emrakul in his mono-green commander deck, no matter how much the rest of the group asks him to remove them

...Tell him he can't play if he won't follow the rules?

Your group hasn't allowed those cards, so by the rules of the format, he is by definition cheating, and therefore is automatically disqualified.

[Somensjev]

...Tell him he can't play if he won't follow the rules?

Your group hasn't allowed those cards, so by the rules of the format, he is by definition cheating, and therefore is automatically disqualified.

the problem with that is that i'd be the only one who wouldn't play with him, everyone else seems convinced that he's the best magic player in the group (and has been playing the longest, even though i introduced him to the game), and they'd never consider not playing with him, pretty much no matter what he did

[Mystic Muse]

Well, you said 'the rest of the group' not "I' and 'the rest of the group' implies more than one person.

Well, couldn't you do the same thing? Run his deck but better?

[Lady Serpentine]

Yep. With Muse here (do you prefer Muse or Mystic or full name only or...?); while I don't necessarily agree with the banlist in all cases (my last commander deck has Primeval Titan in it, for instance), if your group has decided that they don't like playing with those cards, that's an entirely different matter.

Edit: ...Note to self, check if stuff came up when you got distracted before posting. That said, if you're the only one who disagrees that he can use those, you're a bit out of luck? In that case, it's a matter of 'the group as a whole doesn't mind this but I do', and you pretty much either have to not play with him yourself, convince the rest of the group you're right, or work around it.

[Sith_Happens]

Beat some sense into him. If he gets Prime Time and Emrakul, you get Erayo and/or Griselbrand.

[Somensjev]

Well, you said 'the rest of the group' not "I' and 'the rest of the group' implies more than one person.

Well, couldn't you do the same thing? Run his deck but better?

the rest of the group complained about him running the cards, and asked him to remove them, but once he refused they basically left it alone

unfortunately i have issues with money at the moment, otherwise i'd be building a much better commander deck than i already have

[Lady Serpentine]

Beat some sense into him. If he gets Prime Time and Emrakul, you get Erayo and/or Griselbrand.

Alternately, to smash up his Primeval shenanigans (and every other land, enchantment, and artifact he runs ), make a Green/Black deck, with lots of search, then run Melira+Woodfall Primus+Viscera Seer/some other sac engine. For best results, you'll prrrrrrobably want to go with Glissa and a lot of protection/hexproof/shroud artifacts to make sure that the combo pieces can't be taken out, but that's getting a bit more into the specifics than I'm comfortable with. (Of course, technically the combo of Melira+Primus+[Way to repeatedly kill Primus] doesn't take G/B, just monogreen and, say, Ashnod's Altar or some-such. But eh. Seer is a good sac engine and has the benefit that it also lets you infinitely choose your draws, in effect.)

That said, money might make that harder, and it doesn't take care of Emrakul directly (though it does make casting him an utter pain in the ass unless he manages to get enough Spawn Tokens out he still has mana or something); still, ****ing up his ability to use Primeval Titan and likely giving him a beatdown at the same time due to him being unable to do anything is likely going to be decently satisfying.

Edit: Also, if you can pick up... Cauldron of something or other, don't recall the name at present, but the artifact that lets you grant persist (from Ice Age, IIRC), and your own copy of Primeval Titan - or some other way of persisting it - if you have your sac engine and the other two pieces out, it becomes essentially an infinitely flickered Sylvan Primordial.

(Oh, and another reason to go G/B, maybe: if you want to and can acquire him, you can include the black Mikaeus, for another way to keep Primus from dying - but once you have it or Melira out, the other becomes a dead draw; the two end up with Mikaeus meaning they only come back once and then Undying kicks in and they stay down.)

[Svata]

Just use Protean Hulk shenanigans.

[Lady Serpentine]

Just use Protean Hulk shenanigans.

I'm guessing you mean as a counter to the deck he's against? Because if that was talking about my deck idea for such needing heavy search, while that does work for Titan, Melira, and Seer - which in fairness is three-quarters of the creature side of the 'full' combo, albeit not the side that really screws him over and you still need a way to make Titan have Persist -, Primus is an eight-cost. Though, that said, saccing Protean Hulk to Birthing Pod would get you all four (and probably a fair amount of other stuff) out...

If it is, eh. No comment; not used Hulk so I'm not qualified to say, though it does look like you could build something utterly insane running on that, yes.

[Mystic Muse]

Yep. With Muse here (do you prefer Muse or Mystic or full name only or...?)

Kind of all works. I mean, generally, as long as you aren't calling me a guy, or outright insulting me, it's fine (and I consider 'dude' general neutral).

Also. I do want to specify, I would in general NEVER suggest fighting fire with fire. This is only in your particular case, because the guy refuses to play by the rules.

And there are counters to the two, depending on the deck colors you play. I can even find some cheap ones.

[Lady Serpentine]

Kind of all works. I mean, generally, as long as you aren't calling me a guy, or outright insulting me, it's fine (and I consider 'dude' general neutral).

Aye aye! I thought so from seeing you in other places, but I wanted to make sure. And heh, so does everyone else I've met.

Also. I do want to specify, I would in general NEVER suggest fighting fire with fire. This is only in your particular case, because the guy refuses to play by the rules.

And there are counters to the two, depending on the deck colors you play. I can even find some cheap ones.

Yeah, agreed there too. And yes, listen to her advice on those; her counters are likely to be much better than mine.

[Khay]

So I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do in Modern. I have a fairly competitive Burn deck (splashing Blue for Treasure Cruise and, if they try to get fancy with Protection from Red, Psionic Blast) and a de-powered but still playable Tron deck, but I also want something sillier, less straightforward.

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

Show

So far I've been looking at:

• Barren Glory. I love everything about this card, including the art. So far, I've identified two semi-realistic ways to do it. The first involves Karn, exiling cards from your own hand, and taking seven mulligans. I am, however, not spending $160 on a playset of Karns. The second way is a flavour home-run, but it involes three cards, one of which is a nine-mana off-colour sorcery: Cast Barren Glory. Cast Oblivion Ring exiling Barren Glory. Cast Worldfire.
• Goblin Charbelcher. This is probably the closest to actually competitive in this list, but also probably the most expensive, because Charbelcher decks need to be land-light. Which means fetchlands. It also has to be green for things like Search for Tomorrow and especially Ancient Stirrings, possibly run all the Spirit Guides... man, it's hard to assemble a mana base without lands.
• Torpor Orb. Possibly my favourite on the list. Phyrexian Dreadnought plus Stifle is my all-time favourite Timmy combo. Eater of Days is but a pale shadow of the Dreadnought, but it'll do in a pinch. The deck would probably have to be base-Blue (control and artifact tutoring). It would also have to run White because of Hushwing Gryff; without that redundancy, the deck just auto-loses to Slaughter Games. Possibly with Black for Hunted Horror and Treacherous Pit-Dweller... I like this idea. Not sure how good it's going to be, though.

Any advice? I really like the look of Topor Orb, but I'm afraid it might be a little too non-janky. Getting Barren Glory to work ever would be glorious - as in, if I can win one in five games on average - but there's just too many moving parts and nine-mana triple-red spells. Maybe if I play draw-go control for a loooong time while very gradually gathering mana via Time Spiral storage lands? I just don't know. Even worse, there's no red/white or red/blue storage land...

Also:

Also. I do want to specify, I would in general NEVER suggest fighting fire with fire. This is only in your particular case, because the guy refuses to play by the rules.

Yeah, I agree here. If your playgroup has decided that the banlist isn't that important, well, perhaps they require a reminder why it exists. Or he does, specifically. One involving Balance, if he's been especially bad.

[sonofzeal]

Depends on the Merfolk list. I've never heard of UW Merfolk, but considering that U Merfolk is still playable in Legacy last I checked I'm pretty sure it has a chance against Faeries.

So far, Faeries are actually 3:3 - they beat Centaurs easily, went 1:1 against the Birds (very close game, with Soulcatcher's Aerie stacking against Oona, Queen of the Fae mill/stall and Airborn Aid being a mixed blessing), and lost both games against the Black Enchantment deck - neither game gave them early tools for token generation, and both games had them facing a Bitterblossom and a Grave Pact early. The lack of trample or ways to avoid flying blockers hurt them.

At least one of those games, the Faeries had trouble with color fixing, getting plenty of Swamps but no Islands. I've increased the amount of color fixing since then, but luck is, still, part of the game.

[Lord Loss]

the rest of the group complained about him running the cards, and asked him to remove them, but once he refused they basically left it alone

unfortunately i have issues with money at the moment, otherwise i'd be building a much better commander deck than i already have

If you have access to the cards, Acquire and Bribery can be used to turn his Emrakul and Primeval Titan against him. He'll see exactly what it's like to play against his own cards, and either cycle them out, or leave you with the opportunity to play them as well. Gather Specimens and Clone effects also work to this effect, to a lesser extent, although the clones can't copy Emrakul.

[Narkis]

the clones can't copy Emrakul.

Yes they can, as long as they don't target. Protection from colored spells won't help him then.

Also, what's your group's policy on proxies? Lots of possibilities open up if you can't convince them to respect the banlist.

[Segev]

So, I'm running a mostly green-blue deck with mana shenanigans and big, stompy monsters (e.g. hydras). I have some black (mainly for Sultai's Villainous Wealth, which, with the mana shenanigans, tends to be a "win" card when I can play it...and if not, it at least lets me mill off somebody's Courser-of-Kruphix-revealed "win" card), and have recently added a touch of red for Generator Servant to help accelerate just a touch faster (for use against high aggro decks). It's helping.

I had added Tormented Thoughts to try to combo with Phytotitan against aggro and control decks in order to gain card advantage and give me more time to move forward to beat them down, but I'm discovering that Tormented Thoughts tends to be able to hit for more than 2 cards relatively slowly due to the need to get to about turn 4 before my mana ramping is sufficiently high. I'm not sure Mind Rot will be "enough" card removal, but at the same time, it's cheaper by the lack of need to sacrifice a creature, and it's going to have the same effect if used in turn 3 or 4 as Tormented Thoughts.

Is it worth it, or is there a better way to bring about a good hit with Tormented Thoughts earlier? The issue is that, if mana is ramped sufficiently to get a high-Power creature by turn 4, I still lack the mana to sacrifice it before turn 5 or 6. And by then, an aggro deck's already got his stuff on the field while a control deck probably is ready to counter it. And yet, I can't escape the sense that Mind Rot is just not as solid a member of a high-mana, big-creature deck as Tormented Thoughts.

Opinions? Suggestions? Alternate strategies for dealing with control? Control, and sometimes agro, are the two that I have the most trouble with with this deck.

[Arcane_Snowman]

• Barren Glory. I love everything about this card, including the art. So far, I've identified two semi-realistic ways to do it. The first involves Karn, exiling cards from your own hand, and taking seven mulligans. I am, however, not spending $160 on a playset of Karns. The second way is a flavour home-run, but it involes three cards, one of which is a nine-mana off-colour sorcery: Cast Barren Glory. Cast Oblivion Ring exiling Barren Glory. Cast Worldfire.

You can always try juggling Greater Gargadons but once you've got both on the board there isn't much surprise to be had, so you have to work fast after that. With some ramp and filters, you could probably get both out fairly early. But then it's just a matter of having something in place to allow you to actually get to the next upkeep with the Barren Glory intact.

[Khay]

You can always try juggling Greater Gargadons but once you've got both on the board there isn't much surprise to be had, so you have to work fast after that. With some ramp and filters, you could probably get both out fairly early. But then it's just a matter of having something in place to allow you to actually get to the next upkeep with the Barren Glory intact.

I did consider Greater Gargadon, but it strikes me as a bit too awkward. I still have to get Hellbent on my own, and it gives my opponent a window of opportunity to remove the Glory - oen where I have no cards in hand and nothing in play. I mean, the whole deck is awkward, but managing to get into a Glory-win situation and still losing would be devastating.

Opinions? Suggestions? Alternate strategies for dealing with control? Control, and sometimes agro, are the two that I have the most trouble with with this deck.

It kinda depends on the sort of Control you're facing, I think. Discard works, of course, but Tormented Thoughts isn't a good way to do it; if your opponent has a Negate, you've just two-for-one'd yourself. And it requires you to already have a threat on the battlefield. If you want to stick with the discard plan, Thoughtseize might be worth a look. But I don't think you should focus on that too strongly. Alternatively, you could try bringing in cards that hate on specific sorts of control (like Mistcutter Hydra against blue or Rakshasa Deathdealer against removal). It's also possible you could profit from re-thinking your tactics. You're mid-range; when playing against Control, you need to be the Beatdown.

[Segev]

It kinda depends on the sort of Control you're facing, I think. Discard works, of course, but Tormented Thoughts isn't a good way to do it; if your opponent has a Negate, you've just two-for-one'd yourself. And it requires you to already have a threat on the battlefield. If you want to stick with the discard plan, Thoughtseize might be worth a look. But I don't think you should focus on that too strongly. Alternatively, you could try bringing in cards that hate on specific sorts of control (like Mistcutter Hydra against blue or Rakshasa Deathdealer against removal). It's also possible you could profit from re-thinking your tactics. You're mid-range; when playing against Control, you need to be the Beatdown.

The most common control I seem to face is blue/white control with a strong focus on Elspeth. Her ability to wipe anything strong enough to act as a beat-down is irritating, and her chump blockers can easily outnumber my attackers very quickly, given the removal and prevention that the control deck brings to the table. I just can't get enough people down on the table to be the beatdown.

My main strategy for ramping into the big creatures consists of Market Festivals, Verdant Havens, Kiora's Followers, and Voyaging Satyrs. I have a devil of a time getting these on the field and keeping them there long enough to actually start beating down the blue/white control. By the time I have mana to play bigger things WITHOUT needing the ramp, Elspeth is usually there, and, if not, one of the few big flying creatures they have is already out there.

I have added Sagu Maulers to the main deck, replacing my older Arbor Colossi. They're helping, as the morph effect for them and for the new Hooded Hydras lets me get them out sooner and somewhat helps keep the enemy guessing as to what to wipe...but often I'll still lose them before I can afford to unmorph them.

What am I missing in the strategy of "being the beatdown?" There's got to be a way to do this more effectively; blue/white control just seems to have all they need to keep me from having anything by turn 3, which is a turn faster than I can get more than a mana ramp creature on the field.

[IthilanorStPete]

The most common control I seem to face is blue/white control with a strong focus on Elspeth. Her ability to wipe anything strong enough to act as a beat-down is irritating, and her chump blockers can easily outnumber my attackers very quickly, given the removal and prevention that the control deck brings to the table. I just can't get enough people down on the table to be the beatdown.

My main strategy for ramping into the big creatures consists of Market Festivals, Verdant Havens, Kiora's Followers, and Voyaging Satyrs. I have a devil of a time getting these on the field and keeping them there long enough to actually start beating down the blue/white control. By the time I have mana to play bigger things WITHOUT needing the ramp, Elspeth is usually there, and, if not, one of the few big flying creatures they have is already out there.

I have added Sagu Maulers to the main deck, replacing my older Arbor Colossi. They're helping, as the morph effect for them and for the new Hooded Hydras lets me get them out sooner and somewhat helps keep the enemy guessing as to what to wipe...but often I'll still lose them before I can afford to unmorph them.

What am I missing in the strategy of "being the beatdown?" There's got to be a way to do this more effectively; blue/white control just seems to have all they need to keep me from having anything by turn 3, which is a turn faster than I can get more than a mana ramp creature on the field.

A few notes:
-Use cheaper ramp spells. Verdant Haven and especially Market Festival are both slower than you want; use the two mana spells, possibly including Elvish Mystics to start ramping right away.
-Play threats that can dodge Elspeth. Prognostic Sphinx is slow, but resilient. Hornet Queen gets around Elspeth and her soldiers, plus provides value even if they kill it right away.
-Play threats that are resilient to removal. Hooded Hydra is decent on this front; Genesis Hydra can also do well. Bestow creatures like Boon Satyr can help. Reaper of the Wilds and Pearl Lake Ancient can protect themselves.

[Lea Plath]

So, I struggle to build not competitive decks. My friend and her dad play kitchen table magic. I'm thinking of designing some decks that work as duel decks to play, which duel deck rules. Can I get some opinions please?

So far I have ideas for
Spirits versus Arcane (GB Spirits with soulshift versus RU Humans with Splice)
Glissa versus Jor Kaden (GB artifacts with a focus on recursion versus RW weenies with a focus on equipment)
Flesh versus Steel (RG beasts versus UB Artifacts)
Land versus Sky (RG Landfall versus UW Flyers)
Dead versus Undead (RG Spirits versus UB Zombies)

[Segev]

A few notes:
-Use cheaper ramp spells. Verdant Haven and especially Market Festival are both slower than you want; use the two mana spells, possibly including Elvish Mystics to start ramping right away.
-Play threats that can dodge Elspeth. Prognostic Sphinx is slow, but resilient. Hornet Queen gets around Elspeth and her soldiers, plus provides value even if they kill it right away.
-Play threats that are resilient to removal. Hooded Hydra is decent on this front; Genesis Hydra can also do well. Bestow creatures like Boon Satyr can help. Reaper of the Wilds and Pearl Lake Ancient can protect themselves.

I have Voyaging Satyrs and Kiora's Followers already. They are 2-mana. The trouble is they're vulnerable to removal. (Even the less-useful-to-my-deck-overall mystics and caryatids are vulnerable; there's a lot of untargetted removal in the format right now.)

Hornet Queen just tends to be dispelled, because she costs so much. Genesis Hydra is a favorite of mine, though. If I can get more Queens to put in, the GHydra becomes a nine-mana Queen-summoner, at least. (X=7, and then I hope she's in the next 7 cards. She hits the field even if G.Hydra is countered.)

The main trouble is, again, ramping without losing my ramp cards. What "two-mana" spells would you recommend that are resilient to removal for getting ramping into place? (I suppose I could try putting Rattleclaws back in; I could unmorph them for mana right before they're killed if that would let me play something after the death. Assuming he kills my guys on my turn and not his.)

[Lord Loss]

Yes they can, as long as they don't target. Protection from colored spells won't help him then.

Also, what's your group's policy on proxies? Lots of possibilities open up if you can't convince them to respect the banlist.

Yeah, you're right. I reread the wording on most clone effects, totally missed that clone was worded "as a copy of any creature" and not "as a copy of target creature.

Thanks!

[CantigThimble]

Yeah, you're right. I reread the wording on most clone effects, totally missed that clone was worded "as a copy of any creature" and not "as a copy of target creature.

Thanks!

Under the old legend rules I used clone to kill Siguarda regularly.

[sonofzeal]

Out of curiosity, why are Faeries considered such a powerful Tribal deck? Scion of Oona is good, as is Bitterblossom and Glen Elendra Liege, but most tribal decks have something to compete. They're good, but they don't seem to be stand-out superior to, say, Allies or Zombies. Why the hype?

[IthilanorStPete]

Out of curiosity, why are Faeries considered such a powerful Tribal deck? Scion of Oona is good, as is Bitterblossom and Glen Elendra Liege, but most tribal decks have something to compete. They're good, but they don't seem to be stand-out superior to, say, Allies or Zombies. Why the hype?

Bitterblossom + Spellstutter Sprite + Mistbind Clique, with the occasional Vendilion Clique or Scion depending on meta and format. It's a deck that only needs to tap out once (for Bitterblossom), then can play completely at instant speed, acting as a control deck that can very quickly shift into aggro and kill. Cryptic Command was a big part of the deck, as well as the manlands Mutavault and Faerie Conclave.

[Narkis]

Under the old legend rules I used clone to kill Siguarda regularly.

Or Thrun and Phantasmal Image. Good times, good times.

[sonofzeal]

Bitterblossom + Spellstutter Sprite + Mistbind Clique, with the occasional Vendilion Clique or Scion depending on meta and format. It's a deck that only needs to tap out once (for Bitterblossom), then can play completely at instant speed, acting as a control deck that can very quickly shift into aggro and kill. Cryptic Command was a big part of the deck, as well as the manlands Mutavault and Faerie Conclave.

.....oh wow. Spellstutter Sprite is amazing for that cost, and somehow I completely missed it. I may have to re-build the deck at some point.

[Lord Loss]

Under the old legend rules I used clone to kill Siguarda regularly.

I really liked the old legend rule. I understand why they changed it, especially with tournament play in mind, but I find the old legend rule was more fun - led to a lot of hilarious and unexpected situations, and made Legends feel really unique; it was a lot more flavorful.