Blood Bowl in the Playground II: It's Going To Be Elves Again, Isn't It?

[Science Officer]

The Ekrund Infiltrators will not be participating in any future leagues. They had, as their team motto suggests, a good run, but after an abysmal season the time has come to call it quits.

[Wraith]

The Destroyers would be quite happy to rejoin a Legacy League when it becomes available.

I also remember that Unpronouncable, Cheesegear and Qwertystop were looking to join in somewhere down the line. I don't know if they all have teams suitable to such a league or if they were going to be heroes and start out at 1000TV, but if they didn't then I for one am happy to play a few Open League/Auld World/etc matches to let them earn a few SPPs beforehand

[Thufir]

The end result of a game where one team is some 900TV higher than another was never really in dispute, I think,

*Cough1900vs1010cough1-0tomecough*

[Wraith]

That's only 890. That last 10? SUPER important. Honest.

[Qwertystop]

The Destroyers would be quite happy to rejoin a Legacy League when it becomes available.

I also remember that Unpronouncable, Cheesegear and Quertystop were looking to join in somewhere down the line. I don't know if they all have teams suitable to such a league or if they were going to be heroes and start out at 1000TV, but if they didn't then I for one am happy to play a few Open League/Auld World/etc matches to let them earn a few SPPs beforehand

I would have assumed I'd be starting in a league that took starting teams. Is that not a thing?

[Gnoman]

We accept starting teams.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wraith, I just watched your video with the murderhobos (thanks again for putting them up!), and I had a quick question I was hoping you could answer. Given that it is SOP for elf teams to open up a gap in the opposing line up, why make it easier for them by leaving a two-space gap? Wouldn't it be better to leave a one-square gap in the very middle, shifting all players sidewise, so you'd end up with three one-square gaps instead of a two-square gap? That way, the elves need to bash down two players just to open one gap. Is there a downside I'm missing?

(I know that doesn't help against leap players... I'm not sure much can be done about them, to be honest. Maybe some kind of W formation that weakens the front line, in exchange for two layers deep tackle zones)

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

We accept starting teams.

Rephrase: I assumed I'd be starting in the league that starts off with all starting teams, the Standard League, when it rolled around again.

[Silfir]

We haven't really discussed it at all. We don't know how many current coaches are going to want to return to their teams for a new season, either.

In principle, the Standard League is working out quite well. The two things I would change about it, were I to be Nuffle himself, would be a) incudements - They're very poorly balanced and a source of confusion at best, and b) size. Fourteen teams and thirteen match days, at a bi-weekly pace (which I appreciate), drags out a little bit too long for my taste, and it has unfortunate consequences when coaches end up dropping off the face of the earth mid-season. It also makes it somewhat of a less daunting commitment; even if it takes three or four matches to conclude your team sucks and you'd rather stop playing with it, you would only have that many matches remaining and it'd be easier to tough out.

We should definitely collect input by prospective rookie coaches or existing coaches who want to reroll. If there are enough coaches (8+) interested in starting with or rerolling to a TV1000 starting roster, I'd suggest we form a Rookie league (The "Pixies in the Playground"). The Standard League would consist of its current teams, minus the teams that will not sign on for another season. (Even if some coaches drop out, at 13 teams the League can handle that no problem.) The Legacy League would also continue to exist in its current form, minus potential retirements, plus coaches signing on with Standard League dropouts.

If only like three or four coaches are at all interested in starting afresh, depending on how many existing coaches stay on, we could make two tiers; with the top 8 teams of this year's Standard League forming the upper tier and the remainder joining the rookie teams. Still a bit of a lopsided environment, but as competitive for the rookies as we can make it.



Anyway, there's still time until the Standard League ends and any number of coaches can make any number of decisions that might affect its future; but we might as well re-address the issue of extended inducements, considering recent events and the impending league finale. As mentioned, I think they are extremely poorly balanced and shunned by the vast majority of the Blood Bowl community, and thus are far more likely to impede the learning process of new players, and cause confusion for experienced players familiar with the official rules. So I suggest that the next season should be played only with standard inducements.

[Wraith]

Wraith, I just watched your video with the murderhobos (thanks again for putting them up!), and I had a quick question I was hoping you could answer. Given that it is SOP for elf teams to open up a gap in the opposing line up, why make it easier for them by leaving a two-space gap? Wouldn't it be better to leave a one-square gap in the very middle, shifting all players sidewise, so you'd end up with three one-square gaps instead of a two-square gap? That way, the elves need to bash down two players just to open one gap. Is there a downside I'm missing?

Two reasons.
One is that you're only allowed to have two players in the 'outfields' at the start of the drive - that is, the four wide areas on the left and right of the pitch. You physically cannot put three players into those squares in order to build a solid wall across the touchline AND to put a tackle zone across the last square.

You can just put all your guys in a line across the front, but if you do you cannot fill the outfields, and this can leave a completely open avenue for an opposing player to walk through without having to make even a single dodge roll. I prefer to put the two players in the middle of those four squares so that, even if it leaves a gap and it's a relatively easy Dodge or Blitz to get through, my opponent still HAS to Dodge or Blitz through. And every time your opponent rolls a dice, is an opportunity to burn a reroll or even just turnover right there.

Then remember that the pitch is 15 squares wide, and that you only have 11 players on the pitch. It's also always a good idea to have at least one player set back down the field, not tied up at the touchline and thus free to Blitz wherever he's needed without having to Dodge to do it. That means I have 10 players spread across 15 squares - there just has to be a bigger gap, somewhere.

The second reason is that this was only my second ever game with Norse in PvP, and I was still treating them as though they were Dwarves - Tackle and all, which makes Dodging by them somewhat more difficult and so I can usually afford to be slightly more aggressive.
So, I do it like that for the first few games purely out of habit, and it's a mistake which comes back to bite me in the arse on more than one occasion.

I get a lot better at it as the season goes on, especially in the Normal League where I have slower players chasing more Agile ones. Bizarrely, it seems to go easier on me when I have even LESS players and MORE gaps on the touchline.... But I'll save that for another video....

Rephrase: I assumed I'd be starting in the league that starts off with all starting teams, the Standard League, when it rolled around again.

That's why I asked, to be honest. Thufir and I did it, but I can appreciate that not everyone would want to jump into the Legacy League and get mauled for half a dozen games.

Anyway, there's still time until the Standard League ends and any number of coaches can make any number of decisions that might affect its future; but we might as well re-address the issue of extended inducements, considering recent events and the impending league finale. As mentioned, I think they are extremely poorly balanced and shunned by the vast majority of the Blood Bowl community, and thus are far more likely to impede the learning process of new players, and cause confusion for experienced players familiar with the official rules. So I suggest that the next season should be played only with standard inducements.

Although I have previously said that I am happy for my opponents to throw whatever they like at me, I am at heart a traditionalist and would prefer that - all things being equal - we used the traditional standard inducements. That way everyone knows what they do and how they work, and there won't be any more surprises such as recharging Wizards causing upset for those who don't recognise the Cyanide inducements (myself included).

[Ionbound]

Mmm. You know, that sounds pretty fun. I'd be down for that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Two reasons.
One is that you're only allowed to have two players in the 'outfields' at the start of the drive - that is, the four wide areas on the left and right of the pitch. You physically cannot put three players into those squares in order to build a solid wall across the touchline AND to put a tackle zone across the last square.

No, you misunderstand me. I'm saying -2-3-3-2- (dashes are empty spaces, numbers the number of consecutive players). That covers the full 15 squares, allowing only on square between the blocks. You opened up with -2-6--2-, which means the elf only had to place a player and a free assist on the end of the 6 to bash through. -2-3-3-2- comes with no free assists, and a much harder bash through. I appreciate that Norse can't play like that anyway, but as I play dwarves too, I find that structure is much safer way to block elf advance (not always in a straight line, sometimes more of a "V" formation with the outfields way in the back (like 4 and 3 squares), and diagonally coming in to the scrum.

Grey Wolf

[Wraith]

No, you misunderstand me. I'm saying -2-3-3-2- (dashes are empty spaces, numbers the number of consecutive players). That covers the full 15 squares, allowing only on square between the blocks. You opened up with -2-6--2-, which means the elf only had to place a player and a free assist on the end of the 6 to bash through. -2-3-3-2- comes with no free assists, and a much harder bash through. I appreciate that Norse can't play like that anyway, but as I play dwarves too, I find that structure is much safer way to block elf advance (not always in a straight line, sometimes more of a "V" formation with the outfields way in the back (like 4 and 3 squares), and diagonally coming in to the scrum.

Grey Wolf

Ah, I see. Well, in that case, I have no excuse - it's just an oversight. For absolutely no reason at all, I just like to have Morg'n'Thorg in the middle of the pitch where everyone can see him and he can be as close to as many people as possible, even if the rest of the line doesn't quite balance around him as you suggest.

I like to get good value out of my Star Players, which isn't always the best tactic.... But Blood Bowl videos tend to be more fun when the people in it try out some wacky things instead of just going for what is try-hard best tactics

[LCP]

If there are enough coaches (8+) interested in starting with or rerolling to a TV1000 starting roster, I'd suggest we form a Rookie league (The "Pixies in the Playground"). The Standard League would consist of its current teams, minus the teams that will not sign on for another season. (Even if some coaches drop out, at 13 teams the League can handle that no problem.) The Legacy League would also continue to exist in its current form, minus potential retirements, plus coaches signing on with Standard League dropouts.

I don't see the point of having two Legacy Leagues. Teams in the regular league have already separated enough that I was able to hire Slibili with inducements in my recent game against Wraith - there is a similar-sized TV gap between the top teams in the regular league and the middling teams in the Legacy League.

At the very least, I think we should throw the winners of the standard league into the Legacy League and see how they fare

[Wraith]

At the very least, I think we should throw the winners of the standard league into the Legacy League and see how they fare

This is an excellent idea. In fact, every in the standard league gets a minimum 13 games worth of SPP and gold, so they'd be in a great position to join the Legacy League if they wanted to without getting consistently creamed (By comparison the Hammersjurg Destroyers only had 10 games, even after the Final).

Would this be a viable thing? The Standard League always gets reset as TV1000 teams so that people can build up whatever they want for the long running, permanent Legacy League? Seems like it'd be the best of both worlds... Except for me, as I'd have to find a way to play the Ironbeards versus the Destroyers....

[Thufir]

This is an excellent idea. In fact, every in the standard league gets a minimum 13 games worth of SPP and gold, so they'd be in a great position to join the Legacy League if they wanted to without getting consistently creamed (By comparison the Hammersjurg Destroyers only had 10 games, even after the Final).

Would this be a viable thing? The Standard League always gets reset as TV1000 teams so that people can build up whatever they want for the long running, permanent Legacy League? Seems like it'd be the best of both worlds... Except for me, as I'd have to find a way to play the Ironbeards versus the Destroyers....

No. No no no. As much as I like playing a bunch of different teams, a reset and a new team every season would be too far for me. Getting to properly develop a team can be one of the most fun things, and we can only get so much into the Legacy League.
I see no real reason why we can't just carry on the league with new teams joining, though the idea of shortening the seasons and easing the troubles of starting rosters by splitting into two divisions is just as good now as it was before we reset for the current season.

[LCP]

I think I agree with Thufir. If nothing else, forcing a reset at the start of every season skews the natural balance of the game... some factions depend on getting a bit of SPP momentum going before they can seriously compete with teams that start with a plentiful supply of key skills.

Multiple divisions makes sense both as a way to shorten the length of the league and to make a friendly environment for new players to join; it seems to me we should just split into N divisions and make the Legacy League the highest one, while new players join the lowest.

I guess that's not so far different from what Silfir suggested... sorry if I misunderstood you the first time, Silfir!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Multiple divisions makes sense both as a way to shorten the length of the league and to make a friendly environment for new players to join; it seems to me we should just split into N divisions and make the Legacy League the highest one, while new players join the lowest.

If I may offer a suggestion, as a neutral party. Don't do divisions. Divisions are a hierarchy, and it always causes bad blood that your team ended so low that it is being sent to the lower league. I suggest instead taking a leaf out of the real hand-and-football (aka American Football) and the Championship Cup of actual football, and create parallel leagues. At the start of each season, you could assign the teams to random leagues (to minimise having to play against the same teams all the time), by TV score (to maximise challenge across the board), or whatever other method deemed appropriate, but clearly not divisions (i.e. lowest and highest teams don't promote). You can have a small championship at the very end (say, if you create four leagues, the winners of each go for semis and final in the end, or champion and subchampion go for a 8 team tourney).

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Luzahn]

I think divisions based on number of matches played could work out well. We should avoid dividing based on TV, as different teams peak at different places.

We'd still get new teams playing against old ones in later rounds and would prevent fresh teams from getting overwhelmed. I don't suppose Blood Bowl support leagues with that structure, or would we have to track them outside of the client?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think divisions based on number of matches played could work out well. We should avoid dividing based on TV, as different teams peak at different places.

I was not aware of that. That being the case, I strongly recommend a method that introduces at least a bit of randomness, not just matches played. It is no fun to play against the same teams over and over when there are many others you've never played against, and as long as someone doesn't drop off and comes back, this method would just create independent leagues.

Now, I fully agree that one of the leagues should be newcomers only (or newcomers and teams with sub-1000k TV) to give them time to level up a few players. However, other than that one, how bad would it be to just assign teams randomly to a league?

On a segue, to further my education, just how bad is the difference between top teams? I'd have thought that dwarves peaked quite high in TV since they are unlikely to die, but what is the highest TV teams?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Wraith]

No. No no no. As much as I like playing a bunch of different teams, a reset and a new team every season would be too far for me. Getting to properly develop a team can be one of the most fun things, and we can only get so much into the Legacy League.

When you put it like that, I find that I agree and retract my previous comment.

I see no real reason why we can't just carry on the league with new teams joining, though the idea of shortening the seasons and easing the troubles of starting rosters by splitting into two divisions is just as good now as it was before we reset for the current season.

I suppose the only reason that we've come across so far, is that you eventually reach a point where some teams become virtually insurmountable and then they're playing 1000TV newbies. That sort of happened in Season 3 and a lot of people were put off, never to return.

While I agree that there's no NEED to start new teams every season, I do believe there should be a way to separate the higher TV teams from the new ones. For that, I very much like Luzahn's idea of "Number of Games Played" divisions so that new teams can join and face a challenge against slightly older teams without having to get pummeled by people like Measured Response, the Ironbeards and the Dokkalfar Daggers.

On a segue, to further my education, just how bad is the difference between top teams? I'd have thought that dwarves peaked quite high in TV since they are unlikely to die, but what is the highest TV teams?

In theory there is no upper limit. As long as you keep getting experience your TV will keep going up and up, even if you fill up your roster with 16 players and max out your rerolls.

In practice, different leagues can set a maximum TV value, preventing anyone with too much value from joining. Similarly, after your TV reaches about 2100 and then again at 2300 you are penalised after each game by 20k and then 40k gold respectively, which means that it's harder to gain money to replace dead and injured players. So usually, unless you're very lucky or have a ridiculously powerful team, they generally reach about 2100-2300 and then level out as the rate of attrition begins to exceed the rate of growth.

[LCP]

On a segue, to further my education, just how bad is the difference between top teams? I'd have thought that dwarves peaked quite high in TV since they are unlikely to die, but what is the highest TV teams?

My knowledge of Blood Bowl teams is too narrow to give you a comprehensive answer, but it essentially comes down to the fact that after a certain shopping-list of skills on your positional players, additional level-ups start to bloat your TV without adding the same amount of power to your team.

Players with high stats, few starting skills and broad access to skill lists keep becoming more and more powerful as they level up - (A) because the starting platform is that much better, (B) because they have a longer list of skills to work through before they run out of really good skills to take.

Players that start with some of the most useful skills (e.g. Block, Dodge, various ball-handling and agility skills for scoring positionals) peak earlier. They can still get doubles/stat boosts rather than second-choice skills for their later slots, but those are rare. Some coaches will prune their roster of players who level up too far without getting anything exceptional, as it ends up being more beneficial to re-hire a rookie than have this mediocre star player wombling about, giving your opponent a huge inducement bonus.

This effect is especially pronounced with Skinks, who only have one skill list. Skinks basically have 3 skills that are really worthwhile for them to take (Catch, Side Step, Sure Feet) - after that, they hit the wall.

[Unpronounceable]

As a new league hopeful here are my thoughts after reading the last few posts

I think the best solution will end up depending on how many new people join, existing players re-roll or players leave.
It looks like there will be ~16-18 players with the 14 existing league members and the 3-4 names I've seen who are keen to join.

As Silfir said, the large league size can seem to drag for some people so I'd be in favour of two smaller leagues of ~8 as Grey_wolf_c suggested (I also agree with his points against having divisions.)

Personally I have no issue having a new team take on a higher value one so my suggestion would be:

1. When current league ends, new coaches register and existing coaches decide whether to re-roll or keep their existing teams.

2a. If there are <13 teams have one league

2b. If there are 14+ teams have two leagues split on a seeding system, so top 2 TV teams go in separate leagues, 3&4 go in separate leagues and so on, hopefully ensuring there is a good mix of TV in each league.

3. At the end of the league the top 2 from each league enter a 2 round knock-out final. (I think this smaller number is better else you could end up with High TV winning teams getting even more 'bonus' games increasing the gap between them on the new teams even further)

4. Go back to 1.

I don't feel like I should make any points as regards the legacy league but if they're accepting new teams I'm up for the challenge

Finally, what's the etiquette on pick up games in the open league? annoyingly it doesn't have it's own private chat in game and I'm not sure if I should just send people challenges?

If anyone wants to add me on Steam by the way feel free too. My ID should be Unpronounceable now, though I admit I don't know how it works.

[Wraith]

Unpronounceable - You can change your on-screen name, but your account's name should still be the same (broken_symmetry, I think?) and that's the one that you can be found by. Kind of like Skype, or MSN Messenger.

My account is known to Steam as darkbladewraith, even though it usually displays as Wraith or The Illusionist, for anyone who would similarly like to meet me in the Open League.

[Qwaz]

Personallly Ive felt that the hard 2-week limit has solved the pacing problem of season 3 and the number of games in those 2 weeks becomes irrelevent. 3, 7 or 20. 2 weeks is 2 weeks. I like the way Season 4 has gone and the chance to play everyone during the regular season is a big thing. Im gutted Im not going to actually play Firedeamon and that Gnoman couldn't make our game.

I agree with most the coaches that only regular BBRC-official inducements should be used int he standard league.

I also agree with Thufir that re-starting each season sucks for the slower going teams. Do that and we all end up with Amazons, Norse and Dwarfs. Give it more than one season and Chaos win more easily.

Incidently. Last game of the week's been played. Advance! Advance!

[Unpronounceable]

I think that was my community ID wraith, which i've changed. It'll be one of them i'm sure

[Gnoman]

Don't forget that you can right click on someone in your Friends list and give them a nickname, which will never change and display next to whatever they've chosen as a display name in (). This is handy.

[Brother Oni]

Table updated. I assume the last game was played yesterday, so I've updated according to the usual schedule of 2 weeks from Sunday.

Tasroth, when would be a good time for our game?

[Tasroth]

I can manage most times with a bit of planning, though evenings are the easiest. We're both on GMT so that should simplify things somewhat. I can be around on Steam this evening to arrange a specific time (or indeed play the game, if that works).

[LCP]

Thufir, when would you like to stomp on some skinks?