Zodi Plays: Sproggiwood

[Rawhide]

Look what I found on the interwebs:

Spoiler: Version 1

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Spoiler: Version 2

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[Teddy]

Look what I found on the interwebs:

Spoiler: Version 1

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Spoiler: Version 2

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You mean the game... might get ported to Xbox live arcade? Or the general "can be played with joystick"-iness?

[Rawhide]

You mean the game... might get ported to Xbox live arcade? Or the general "can be played with joystick"-iness?

From what I read, I believe the developers are working on full controller support. So, from the moment you start the game (earlier if you run Steam in big picture mode), you can run it from just a controller.

[Teddy]

From what I read, I believe the developers are working on full controller support. So, from the moment you start the game (earlier if you run Steam in big picture mode), you can run it from just a controller.

Ahhh...

Although, isn't that at least somewhat common today?

[Rawhide]

Ahhh...

Although, isn't that at least somewhat common today?

Some do, some don't. But this one will apparently be getting full controller support soon.

[LaZodiac]

Look what I found on the interwebs:

Spoiler: Version 1

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Spoiler: Version 2

Show

Ooh, controller support. I'd probably stick with the keyboard and mouse since I'm used to it by now, and because I'm not sure how the controller will handle aiming with things like the magnifying glass.

Also, I should note that I've made a decision considering what to play as for tomorrow's video, so votes closed and stuff. I think some of you are going to be happy

[Durkoala]

I forgot to talk about the Vampire. Oops.
Firstly it's funny. The armour is evening wear and instead of biting with your fang, you hold it in your hand and stab things with it. Also, with the amount of times you died, you're probably keeping your promise to make sure that the vampire population is kept under control.

It's also really fun to watch it progress from being an awful fighter to a fragile up-and-down battler to wiping out everything in touching distance. That Stormguard Tux was certainly put to good use.

Lastly, Ignis is actually pretty scary. A gigantic flying fireball of cold that sucks the life from an entire floor. The fact that she rambles about life being warm and fleeting is just the icing on the cake.

Do you know if the bosses actually die or not? Sproggi did say to kill Ignis once and for all, but Big Ick is still running around after a farmer demonstrated how you eat jelly with a fork (and every class newbie treated him as theworld's wobbliest training dummy, but that may be gameplay having priorty over continuity).

Also, it looks like we're getting through the game: every class except one has been unlocked, and you'll be nearly 2/3rds done with the next dungeon if there aren't any surprise bosses or levels.

[Rawhide]

Also, it looks like we're getting through the game: every class except one has been unlocked, and you'll be nearly 2/3rds done with the next dungeon if there aren't any surprise bosses or levels.

Also, for a 100% completion, you do have to beat every level with every class. Which means that dungeons and bosses have to be beaten even by classes which are "less than optimal" for battling those dungeons and bosses, to put it mildly.

[LaZodiac]

Okay, time for the next area of the game! What manner of monsters will be tussle with? Tune in to find out!

Zodi Plays: Sproggiwood [7] happy mate fish no

Video Length: 10:24

First of all, it goes without saying but...wow this area is absolutely beautiful. The only thing that ruins the view are the many, many slimes you must wade through, and the happy mate fish. I give up, I have NO idea how to handle them. I killed them at the same time in this video, and they still came back. So I've got nothing.

Speaking of nothing, for the first time using the Identity Crisis Potion, we sure got...a lot of the same attacks. First try we changed out all of our moves but one, second time we changed only two moves. Both times I got really good moves, too! Juke is responsible for saving my hide quite a bit in this one. Also a note about that door that was summoned up by the Mushroom Wizard we found. That was a Bizarro Door, a spawner that spawns out Bizarro creatures. I saw it in a previous run of the Ghost Fens, thanks to a scroll of wonder. You gotta close em up...which apparently takes away stealth.

Also...turns out Big Ick isn't the boss, but just a mid boss! A weak one too, because he goes down like a chump...though his dialogue with us is quite enthralling. I would love to have discourse with Big Ick at a later date. The TRUE boss of this area is Sapius The Wise, the wizard mushroom! Oh no, wizards! This is bad because it means Sapius can do all sorts of nasty tricks (which all pale in comparision to getting arrow'd in the face) and stuff. But worse, it means that uh...according to Raako, the game's over. A civilization has discovered wizardy, so we've saved the world! Yay! Only Sproggi wants US to save the world, not the "unpredictable mushrooms". Uh oh...

==================

I've got not much to say lore wise, but I will say with how beautiful this place is, I think I know what it is. Lintuko, the home of the birds. It's a beautiful place where all birds (which are sacred in this mythology) went to rest during winter. In the modern parlance, Lintuko means a sort of imaginary happy place, warm and peaceful like a paradise. And really, these mountainous areas seem that like 100%.

Also, about birds! Finnish Mythology really cares about birds. For starters the world was made when a waterfowl's egg exploded. Secondly, a bird brings your soul to your body at birth, and removes it at death. In some areas of Finland it was believed that you need a wooden bird carving to protect your soul from getting lost in the dream world while you dreamed. That's pretty cool! These "soul birds" are called Sielulintu and I think they might be inspiration for the happy mate fish, but I can't be sure. Especially since happy mate fish are horrible.

[Rawhide]

Okay, time for the next area of the game! What manner of monsters will be tussle with? Tune in to find out!

Zodi Plays: Sproggiwood [7] happy mate fish no

Video Length: 10:24

Oh dear, you didn't film this while sick did you? I expected you to take a session off for your health.

First of all, it goes without saying but...wow this area is absolutely beautiful. The only thing that ruins the view are the many, many slimes you must wade through, and the happy mate fish. I give up, I have NO idea how to handle them. I killed them at the same time in this video, and they still came back. So I've got nothing.

Yeah, that's exactly how you kill them. They are life linked, kill one only and the other will allow it to respawn. You have to get both at the same time.

[LaZodiac]

Oh dear, you didn't film this while sick did you? I expected you to take a session off for your health.



Yeah, that's exactly how you kill them. They are life linked, kill one only and the other will allow it to respawn. You have to get both at the same time.

Yeah, I did. Don't worry, as long as I'm not like, doing any physical work or laying on my stomach, I'm fine. Most of my sickness is regulated to passing head aches and big stomachaches.

I could of sworn I killed them at the same time. Does it have to be IMMEDIATELY at the same time? Because there were times where I killed both in one action, but they didn't IMMEDIATELY die at the same time.

[Rawhide]

I could of sworn I killed them at the same time. Does it have to be IMMEDIATELY at the same time? Because there were times where I killed both in one action, but they didn't IMMEDIATELY die at the same time.

I'll try to pay attention to what you did and why it didn't seem to work. You have to get them on the same turn, as far as I remember. e.g. with bombs, fireball, sweeping arc of fire, an area effect, etc.

[Gray Mage]

I'll try to pay attention to what you did and why it didn't seem to work. You have to get them on the same turn, as far as I remember. e.g. with bombs, fireball, sweeping arc of fire, an area effect, etc.

They were killed with cleave, if I'm not mistaken.

[Rawhide]

They were killed with cleave, if I'm not mistaken.

If two linked happy mate fish were cleaved dead in the same turn, they should die permanently. Still yet to watch the video, but it could be a bug.

[Sallera]

Identity Crisis! :D You got a pretty good set of rolls, too; if you'd remembered cleave in the first run, it probably would have been survivable, but it can be easy to forget your options when you randomize them.

Specifically, Happy Mate Fish will use their turn to resurrect their partner if it's dead. This means you can also sometimes kill them by letting one step on a trap and then shooting the other. I'd have to look more closely at the video to figure out what happened that one time, but it did look odd, for sure.

And yeah, I love that area. So pretty.

[Teddy]

Speaking of nothing, for the first time using the Identity Crisis Potion, we sure got...a lot of the same attacks. First try we changed out all of our moves but one, second time we changed only two moves. Both times I got really good moves, too! Juke is responsible for saving my hide quite a bit in this one. Also a note about that door that was summoned up by the Mushroom Wizard we found. That was a Bizarro Door, a spawner that spawns out Bizarro creatures. I saw it in a previous run of the Ghost Fens, thanks to a scroll of wonder. You gotta close em up...which apparently takes away stealth.

I'm a little sad you went with actively avoiding the archer powers in the first run when archer got the most votes, but oh well. And ahh, so you closed it. I thought you just went away from it and it closed on the next turn, which made me sad, since I wanted to know how the bizarro dimension looked.

Also...turns out Big Ick isn't the boss, but just a mid boss! A weak one too, because he goes down like a chump...though his dialogue with us is quite enthralling. I would love to have discourse with Big Ick at a later date. The TRUE boss of this area is Sapius The Wise, the wizard mushroom! Oh no, wizards! This is bad because it means Sapius can do all sorts of nasty tricks (which all pale in comparision to getting arrow'd in the face) and stuff. But worse, it means that uh...according to Raako, the game's over. A civilization has discovered wizardy, so we've saved the world! Yay! Only Sproggi wants US to save the world, not the "unpredictable mushrooms". Uh oh...

Sapius actually looked really fun to play against. Arrows! Arrows and fire everywhere!

I've got not much to say lore wise, but I will say with how beautiful this place is, I think I know what it is. Lintuko, the home of the birds. It's a beautiful place where all birds (which are sacred in this mythology) went to rest during winter. In the modern parlance, Lintuko means a sort of imaginary happy place, warm and peaceful like a paradise. And really, these mountainous areas seem that like 100%.

Yeah, it really is a pretty place...

Also, about birds! Finnish Mythology really cares about birds. For starters the world was made when a waterfowl's egg exploded. Secondly, a bird brings your soul to your body at birth, and removes it at death. In some areas of Finland it was believed that you need a wooden bird carving to protect your soul from getting lost in the dream world while you dreamed. That's pretty cool! These "soul birds" are called Sielulintu and I think they might be inspiration for the happy mate fish, but I can't be sure. Especially since happy mate fish are horrible.

Well, take into account that Sproggi has horrible control issues, and we might not actually be fighting for the good side...

If two linked happy mate fish were cleaved dead in the same turn, they should die permanently. Still yet to watch the video, but it could be a bug.

It happens at 2:18. One link is left hanging for a whole turn, so it's definitely a bug...

[Sallera]

Ok, at home and took a closer look. What happens there is that Zodi only kills the fish on the right; the fish above resurrects its partner, then pokes Zodi and kills itself on her armour. No bugs, just turn-based action being played out too fast to see without frame-by-framing it.

[LaZodiac]

Ok, at home and took a closer look. What happens there is that Zodi only kills the fish on the right; the fish above resurrects its partner, then pokes Zodi and kills itself on her armour. No bugs, just turn-based action being played out too fast to see without frame-by-framing it.

Knowing that, you have to have been frame by framing the video to do that. Impressive.

[Sallera]

Eh, it's a youtube video, the whole sequence is all of five frames or so.

It's just a developer's mindset; if I see something that looks like a bug, I want to replicate it, verify it, and/or explain it, so I can report it if I need to. Do unto others, and all. :3

[Rawhide]

It happens at 2:18. One link is left hanging for a whole turn, so it's definitely a bug...

Ah, definitely a bug then.

Ok, at home and took a closer look. What happens there is that Zodi only kills the fish on the right; the fish above resurrects its partner, then pokes Zodi and kills itself on her armour. No bugs, just turn-based action being played out too fast to see without frame-by-framing it.

Ah, definitely not a bug then. Or, well, it is probably still a bug, at least in my mind, but different to what was originally thought. Probably a complex sequence of logic which allowed the fish to survive when it wasn't intended to.

[Sallera]

How so? It looks mechanically sound to me. Fish have 7hp, top fish only takes 6; fish has to be capable of taking actions to resurrect its partner, but the resurrection doesn't actually take an action, leaving it free to attack and kill itself on the armour. Since just-resurrected fish don't get to act until the next turn, top fish stays dead that round.

[Rawhide]

How so? It looks mechanically sound to me. Fish have 7hp, top fish only takes 6; fish has to be capable of taking actions to resurrect its partner, but the resurrection doesn't actually take an action, leaving it free to attack and kill itself on the armour. Since just-resurrected fish don't get to act until the next turn, top fish stays dead that round.

Well, first, mechanically works or not, I'd never design it that way, it will just frustrate players because without a frame by frame recording, it will just appear to have not died correctly. It happens too quickly, it happens unfairly. Heck, you get two resurrection cycles in motion from the same pair in a single turn.

Second, because I don't believe it is supposed to happen that way. Designing game logic is hard, very hard, there are so many factors that make perfect logical sense, based on how the logic was written, but just end up with a result you did not want. I don't believe what happened in this specific instance was the intention.

How would I fix it? One of two ways, maybe both:

1. All moves take place, from all creatures, then fish are resurrected, then player gets control back.

2. Fish must remain dead for a full turn.

[Sallera]

You don't get two resurrections from the same pair; there's only one resurrection going on there. The designers already prevented that from happening by not letting a resurrected fish take an action.

That said, I don't disagree with your point about the speed. The fact that the action is turn-based, but takes place over the course of a tenth of a second or two, does not for clarity make. (In the designers' defence, this model is pretty standard for a roguelike, and slowing down the turns could very easily make the game unbearably tedious if handled poorly.)

But I don't agree that it wasn't intended to happen that way. I think it's pretty clear that Happy Mate Fish are supposed to be frustrating to deal with; if they wanted to make them simpler, they probably would have had resurrection take place at the end of the fish's turn, instead of the beginning. (And really, this is a roguelike; if you don't have at least one enemy that makes your players curse at the screen, you're doing something wrong.) Yes, your (1) would make the fish easier to kill, and it would prevent this kind of situation... but I think it's being too nice.

Then again, aside from Sproggiwood, the main roguelike I've played is ADOM.

[Rawhide]

You don't get two resurrections from the same pair; there's only one resurrection going on there. The designers already prevented that from happening by not letting a resurrected fish take an action.

Sorry, I meant you have an instant resurrection, and a lined up resurrection, all happening on the same turn.

That said, I don't disagree with your point about the speed. The fact that the action is turn-based, but takes place over the course of a tenth of a second or two, does not for clarity make. (In the designers' defence, this model is pretty standard for a roguelike, and slowing down the turns could very easily make the game unbearably tedious if handled poorly.)

But I don't agree that it wasn't intended to happen that way. I think it's pretty clear that Happy Mate Fish are supposed to be frustrating to deal with; if they wanted to make them simpler, they probably would have had resurrection take place at the end of the fish's turn, instead of the beginning. (And really, this is a roguelike; if you don't have at least one enemy that makes your players curse at the screen, you're doing something wrong.) Yes, your (1) would make the fish easier to kill, and it would prevent this kind of situation... but I think it's being too nice.

Two fish, killed on the same turn, both dead. I'd wager that they are supposed to be dead. At the very least you could make the resurrection happen as the last action the fish makes as it takes its specific turn. I'm also not 100% sure that instant resurrection was intended like that.

[Sallera]

...I question the value of defining a 'lined up resurrection' as something actually taking place. I mean, that's pretty much just saying 'a fish died.'

And yes, as I said, you could indeed move the resurrection from the beginning of the fish's turn to the end, but that really does make them noticeably easier to kill (out-of-turn damage like the armour, slime puddles, fire traps, etc. is already a valuable tool for dealing with them, and such would double its usefulness), which was my point - I believe their intent was to require the player to use careful tactics to deal with the fish, and moving the resurrection to end of turn basically just lowers the difficulty level, as you no longer need to consider the order of operations as much.

Really, I think the actual problem here is solely with the speed of the action and the lack of insight that grants into what's taking place. It's hard to develop effective tactics if you can't perceive the variables involved.

[LaZodiac]

And as all this debating is going on, the happy mate fish floats over to it's partner and whispers "happy mate fish" and Zodi just stands their, still confused and a little horrified but what she is seeing.

Seriously though, I like the discussion we're having, especially because I completely agree with the idea that they should make it a LOT more clear that they didn't die immediately. Maybe make it so that we hear "happy mate fish" if we don't kill them both at the same time, as a sort of clue to show that oops, they survived for just a split second long enough to revive before dying to your armor instead of dying to your weapon.

[Sallera]

Ha, it could actually be rather funny if they added the occasional line to dungeon monsters like they have in the village (only without the click prompting, naturally). You'd probably need either a deep quote library or a very low appearance rate to keep it from getting old, though.

Edit: On a related note,

Spoiler: Final class

Show

Have you noticed any odd behaviour with summoned yetis, Rawhide (or anyone else who's been playing)? I haven't confirmed it, but I've noticed that my yetis are suspiciously effective when clubbing their way through areas I haven't explored yet, leading me to wonder whether enemies in FOW areas don't take actions until you discover them. This would be a method of reducing processor load I could see someone thinking of...

[Teddy]

Sorry, I meant you have an instant resurrection, and a lined up resurrection, all happening on the same turn.

Two fish, killed on the same turn, both dead. I'd wager that they are supposed to be dead. At the very least you could make the resurrection happen as the last action the fish makes as it takes its specific turn. I'm also not 100% sure that instant resurrection was intended like that.

Actually, I think the Happy Mate Fish resurrect their mates (instantly) at the beginning of their turns, and that what happened was as following:

1. Zodi kills HMF1 and injures HMF2.
2. Zodi's turn ends.
3. HMF2 resurrects HMF1.
4. HMF2 attacks Zodi, triggers the lightning and dies.
5. HMF1 does nothing of importance.
6. Critters' turn ends.
7. Zodi is confused and does nothing of importance.
8. Zodi's turn ends.
9. HMF1 resurrects HMF2.

I agree that there should be a slight pause at the end of your turn, so that you get to see what are the consequences of your actions, and what are the consequences of the critters' actions. Fooling the player into believing their actions didn't work is not a good game design.

Making the Happy Mate Fishes a little easier to kill could also stave off issues with poor luck on occations when you actually manage to line up the kill, but I'm more ambivalent toward that. Forcing the Happy Mate Fishes to spend a full turn resurrecting their mates could also work...

[Rawhide]

...I question the value of defining a 'lined up resurrection' as something actually taking place. I mean, that's pretty much just saying 'a fish died.'

A fish died. That same fish resurrected. The second fish died. The second fish has a resurrection line attached.

And yes, as I said, you could indeed move the resurrection from the beginning of the fish's turn to the end, but that really does make them noticeably easier to kill (out-of-turn damage like the armour, slime puddles, fire traps, etc. is already a valuable tool for dealing with them, and such would double its usefulness), which was my point - I believe their intent was to require the player to use careful tactics to deal with the fish, and moving the resurrection to end of turn basically just lowers the difficulty level, as you no longer need to consider the order of operations as much.

Looking at my earlier examples, I think I would not do number 2 (waiting a whole turn) after all. However, changing the order of actions would still be high on my priority list. As a software developer myself, I think this is a case of the order of action processing producing an undesirable outcome. It creates an outcome that is not at all clear to the end user, and additionally not what I think they intended.

Really, I think the actual problem here is solely with the speed of the action and the lack of insight that grants into what's taking place. It's hard to develop effective tactics if you can't perceive the variables involved.

It's not just the speed, but the speed definitely does not help. With all of it happening so quickly, for this to be able to happen, it produces an unintuitive and confusing situation. It is highly unlikely that this exact situation was encountered. Even if it was originally intended, which I doubt, it is still undesirable to confound the users like that, and leave them either not knowing how to kill the fish, or with an impression that there was a bug.

Edit:

Actually, I think the Happy Mate Fish resurrect their mates (instantly) at the beginning of their turns, and that what happened was as following:

1. Zodi kills HMF1 and injures HMF2.
2. Zodi's turn ends.
3. HMF2 resurrects HMF1.
4. HMF2 attacks Zodi, triggers the lightning and dies.
5. HMF1 does nothing of importance.
6. Critters' turn ends.
7. Zodi is confused and does nothing of importance.
8. Zodi's turn ends.
9. HMF1 resurrects HMF2.

I'm well aware of the order of events, but thank you for trying to clarify. As I acknowledged, my wording was poor.

I agree that there should be a slight pause at the end of your turn, so that you get to see what are the consequences of your actions, and what are the consequences of the critters' actions. Fooling the player into believing their actions didn't work is not a good game design.

Agreed, specifically on not good game design, which is one reason I don't think it was intended. See above in this post.

Making the Happy Mate Fishes a little easier to kill could also stave off issues with poor luck on occations when you actually manage to line up the kill, but I'm more ambivalent toward that. Forcing the Happy Mate Fishes to spend a full turn resurrecting their mates could also work...

I don't seek to make them easier to kill, I just seek to make them killable in a logical and intuitive way, the way I believe it was intended. It is also for this reason that I no longer think that waiting a whole turn is a good option (see above in this post), that would make them easier to kill.

[LaZodiac]

Oh man just realized we've been focused so much on the stupid bloody fish we haven't discussed how actually fantastic Big Ick is in this episode.