What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

[Extra Anchovies]

About Shadow Jump. Being able to pull a nightcrawler style bamf-n-smack would be right up the SDs alley. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way without a lot of out-of-core help. You gain a limited range Dimension door spell so a teleport attack is off the table, and what should be your defining schtick is completely outdone, in core, by the horizon walker.

Only if the DM rules that Shifting Planar Mastery can be used on non-shifting terrain; fluff very strongly implies that it should not, so most DMs probably won't, regardless of RAW.

[Thiyr]

Only if the DM rules that Shifting Planar Mastery can be used on non-shifting terrain; fluff very strongly implies that it should not, so most DMs probably won't, regardless of RAW.

I don't really see that. The fluff seems to be saying you've learned a lot of stuff from going a lot of places, but you never stick around too long. They gain a connection, but they "take their terrain mastery wherever they go". That and it does kinda explicitly say they retain abilities regardless of the terrain they're on. "For example, a horizon walker who selected desert terrain mastery is immune to fatigue even if she's underground, in the mountains, or in a city". I'd be kinda miffed if I was told that I couldn't use those abilities off their respective terrains, just 'cause it doesn't seem like there's a reason for it to me.

[Venger]

Only if the DM rules that Shifting Planar Mastery can be used on non-shifting terrain; fluff very strongly implies that it should not, so most DMs probably won't, regardless of RAW.

I don't really see that. The fluff seems to be saying you've learned a lot of stuff from going a lot of places, but you never stick around too long. They gain a connection, but they "take their terrain mastery wherever they go". That and it does kinda explicitly say they retain abilities regardless of the terrain they're on. "For example, a horizon walker who selected desert terrain mastery is immune to fatigue even if she's underground, in the mountains, or in a city". I'd be kinda miffed if I was told that I couldn't use those abilities off their respective terrains, just 'cause it doesn't seem like there's a reason for it to me.

Yeah, Thiyr is right, it doesn't get much clearer than this:

Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

(emphasis mine)

There is no RAW justification whatsoever for robbing horizon walker of his class features if he's not in that terrain type. It's already a pretty weak class, there's no reason to take away the one thing that makes it vaguely worthwhile.

[Extra Anchovies]

(I never said there was a RAW justification)

The fluff justification I refer to is as follows:

You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination

The prime material plane doesn't have too many reality shifts, at least none that aren't brought about by external forces (e.g. spells). Hence my opinion that it's shaky whether this specific planar terrain mastery is usable anywhere. I think it should be usable anywhere, but some DMs may disagree.

[georgie_leech]

(I never said there was a RAW justification)

The fluff justification I refer to is as follows:

The prime material plane doesn't have too many reality shifts, at least none that aren't brought about by external forces (e.g. spells). Hence my opinion that it's shaky whether this specific planar terrain mastery is usable anywhere. I think it should be usable anywhere, but some DMs may disagree.

Well, to be ridiculously pedantic the Prime Material is supposed to behave like Earth if it's not otherwise mentioned, which would hold true for Quantum Electrodynamics. Meaning that really, really tiny variations or shifts on the quantum level still happen.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, to be ridiculously pedantic the Prime Material is supposed to behave like Earth if it's not otherwise mentioned, which would hold true for Quantum Electrodynamics. Meaning that really, really tiny variations or shifts on the quantum level still happen.

So Horizon Walker = Quantum Tunneler?

[Venger]

So Horizon Walker = Quantum Tunneler?

"I completed horizon walker. Why haven't I leapt yet?"

[georgie_leech]

So Horizon Walker = Quantum Tunneler?

I've seen weirder justifications.

[Sam K]

Another PRC concept that seems kind of silly to me: all those full divine caster progression classes that essentially comes down to being "the chosen uber high priest best buddy of <diety>". There is already a class like that, it's called cleric! You're channeling the power of your god, it doesn't get much more chosen than that!

Ofcourse, from a power point of view those PRCs are awesome because cleric is pretty dull beyond first level, and I'd obviously rather have full casting AND additional powers, but from a fluff perspective it just seems pretty silly. Having your god on speed-dial for divine intervention isn't enough to mark you as special in the church? Being a servant of Pelor isn't enough, you have to be a radiant one? Domains are suppose to reflect what kind of diety you follow; stacking on a PRC on top of that is just... well, awesome for the power, but it seems like pretty weak concepts to me.

[Thiyr]

Or if you're not a fan of the quantum angle, it could be that you're sensing shifts in the plane of shadow or limbo, and then using those shifts as a means to propel yourself through whatever plane you're on? At that point you're basically just doing a normal dimension door, going off-plane just long enough to get to where you want to be, riding the planar wave.

Which kinda makes me want to make an over-the-top surfer horizon-walker. Constantly searching for the Ultimate Wave.


also

Another PRC concept that seems kind of silly to me: all those full divine caster progression classes that essentially comes down to being "the chosen uber high priest best buddy of <diety>". There is already a class like that, it's called cleric! You're channeling the power of your god, it doesn't get much more chosen than that!

Ofcourse, from a power point of view those PRCs are awesome because cleric is pretty dull beyond first level, and I'd obviously rather have full casting AND additional powers, but from a fluff perspective it just seems pretty silly. Having your god on speed-dial for divine intervention isn't enough to mark you as special in the church? Being a servant of Pelor isn't enough, you have to be a radiant one? Domains are suppose to reflect what kind of diety you follow; stacking on a PRC on top of that is just... well, awesome for the power, but it seems like pretty weak concepts to me.

I can kinda see it as a "you're set apart from the rest" bit. Clerics are more the standard magically imbued dudes, low-rung followers. Anyone can become a cleric if they have enough faith. Your RSoPs are the ones who go above and beyond, though. To use a non-religious comparison (because otherwise I'm getting into real-world stuff), anyone can become a computer techie, take a few classes and spend a few bucks and you can get some low level certificates, know your way around computers. But if you meet someone with, say, a CCAr certification? They're at the -top-, basically the best at what they do. Within their realm, they can do anything a low level techie can do and then some.

At least, that's how I'd see it. It depend on how the clergy is structured in your setting, though.

[Sartharina]

I can kinda see it as a "you're set apart from the rest" bit. Clerics are more the standard magically imbued dudes, low-rung followers. Anyone can become a cleric if they have enough faith. Your RSoPs are the ones who go above and beyond, though. To use a non-religious comparison (because otherwise I'm getting into real-world stuff), anyone can become a computer techie, take a few classes and spend a few bucks and you can get some low level certificates, know your way around computers. But if you meet someone with, say, a CCAr certification? They're at the -top-, basically the best at what they do. Within their realm, they can do anything a low level techie can do and then some.

At least, that's how I'd see it. It depend on how the clergy is structured in your setting, though.

Nah - all clerics of equal level are of equal skill. The specialized one, instead of saying "You're a Cleric of Pelor", they say "You're a cleric of Pelor." Well... maybe comparing it to certification makes sense.

[Bloody Peasant!]

I'm not sure if it properly fits the theme of "awful concept," but I hate the stupid broken overpowered Warshaper. As a shapeshifter of some sort or another, I can learn quickly (5 levels) to contort my body to gain extended reach, incredible immunities, free ability score and damage boosts that stack with everything, ultra-fast healing... the best warrior class ever.

Agreed. My hatred for the warshaper defies language. One of the few prestige classes I always ban outright, and the only one that isn't for spellcasters.

[Honest Tiefling]

I personally thought a lot of the cleric prestige classes were not indicating that the cleric was closer to the god, but rather specialized priestly training to reflect the god. After all, clerics of a chaotic evil war diety should not be similar in training to those of a peaceful lawful good healing deity.

[Thurbane]

Well, that went downwards in several directions fast *pulls out gasoline*.

I know, I was enjoying the thread much more before it became pages of debating the definition of fluff vs. crunch; and "Mindrape: evil or just misunderstood?".

For my 2 cents, one of the most annoying things is how many PrCs dedicated to giving melee types magical or pseudo magical powers (particularly classes about imbuing your weapon with powers) are medium BAB. I know full BAB isn't the be all and end all, but it kind of is a thing for melee types. Elemental Warrior, Dragon Samurai and Shadowblade all come to mind as offenders.

Oh, and another of my major PrC gripes: there is (AFAIK) no Undead-slaying PrC that doesn't require Turn Undead. Oh, you wanted to play a Fighter or Ranger who really hates undead and has a PrC to back it up? Sorry, you need a Cleric dip - in fact, why not just play a Cleric or Paladin instead? Seriously - we have dedicated PrCs for slaying pretty much every other creature type that don't rely on a specific class feature; since Undead are one of the classic fantasy stereotypes for someone to dedicate their career to fighting, why no love for simple melee types? Sure, you can pick up feats and gear designed specifically for battling undead, but the lack of a PrC that didn't require Turning (and often spells as well) constantly irritates me. I keep meaning to homebrew one myself...

[Extra Anchovies]

Or if you're not a fan of the quantum angle, it could be that you're sensing shifts in the plane of shadow or limbo, and then using those shifts as a means to propel yourself through whatever plane you're on? At that point you're basically just doing a normal dimension door, going off-plane just long enough to get to where you want to be, riding the planar wave.

Which kinda makes me want to make an over-the-top surfer horizon-walker. Constantly searching for the Ultimate Wave.

Hm. That's actually a really good justification of the Dimension Door ability; I forgot that the PMP is coterminous with the not-so-static Ethereal and Shadow planes. My mind is changed on the matter.

Also, that is a great concept for a Horizon Walker. I like.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh, and another of my major PrC gripes: there is (AFAIK) no Undead-slaying PrC that doesn't require Turn Undead. Oh, you wanted to play a Fighter or Ranger who really hates undead and has a PrC to back it up? Sorry, you need a Cleric dip - in fact, why not just play a Cleric or Paladin instead? Seriously - we have dedicated PrCs for slaying pretty much every other creature type that don't rely on a specific class feature; since Undead are one of the classic fantasy stereotypes for someone to dedicate their career to fighting, why no love for simple melee types? Sure, you can pick up feats and gear designed specifically for battling undead, but the lack of a PrC that didn't require Turning (and often spells as well) constantly irritates me. I keep meaning to homebrew one myself...

This. Ive always wanted to play a Hunter of the Dead, but i need to be a friggin paladin to do it. Seriously, its even a D8 HD PrC, which screams Ranger to me (or Fighter, cuz ill totally drop a HD to get a handful of spells.) and it has its own spells so no Cleric entry. Seriously am i supposed to get in as a Cleric 1/Full BaB class 5? So i need to wait till level 7 in order to be good at wrecking undead. Good job there guys.

[Honest Tiefling]

Dare I ask how many classes require dipping into one of the Master Classes to fight undead?

[Blackhawk748]

Dare I ask how many classes require dipping into one of the Master Classes to fight undead?

To be honest, i think most of them. Its kinda sad actually.

[Extra Anchovies]

To be honest, i think most of them. Its kinda sad actually.

Even Hunter of the Dead, the undead-fightin' class from Complete Warrior (of all places), requires it. As does Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine, the anti-taint PrC from Heroes of Horror.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly, if any of my players actually wanted to play an Undead murdering machine, id wave the Turn prereq for Hunter of the Dead as that Knowledge pre req seems good enough.

[Honest Tiefling]

So only 2? Still bad, but I thought it was much more pervasive.

And I quite like the fix that ranks in the skill used to identify them can be used in place of Turn Undead to identify them.

[Blackhawk748]

So only 2? Still bad, but I thought it was much more pervasive.

Honestly im not even sure if there are more than two, though there really should be one for Rangers.

[Extra Anchovies]

So only 2? Still bad, but I thought it was much more pervasive.

And I quite like the fix that ranks in the skill used to identify them can be used in place of Turn Undead to identify them.

Those were just the two I knew off the top of my head; there are a number of others. Of note, however, is Sacred Exorcist, since they're sort of anti-undead in the sense that they hate possessing entities, many of which are undead. That class grants TU, but requires casting so it's a moot point anyways.

[Psyren]

A cleric dip isn't the end of the world - just trade out the domains for devotion feats. Travel Devotion is great, as is Knowledge Devotion. You can even dip Cloistered Cleric to keep your skills up on a skillmonkey or knowledgemonkey, and getting Know Religion as a class skill is helpful for classes like Rogue.

Skullclan Hunter is another anti-undead class that needs TU but for the reasons mentioned above it is a worthwhile trade. It has 6+Int skills, advances sneak attack, allows you to track and sneak attack any undead, and grants a boatload of very handy immunities.

[Thurbane]

I'm not saying from a mechanical standpoint that a Cleric dip is a bad thing...but from a fluff POV, I think it's pretty sad that you need to dip to enter an Undead hunting PrC. Hellreaver is a great example of how to make a class like this with Fighter, Barbarians, Rangers etc. in mind.

I think there may be at least one more PrC than already mentioned that requires TU, but I can't find it at the moment.

[Divayth Fyr]

I think there may be at least one more PrC than already mentioned that requires TU, but I can't find it at the moment.

There are several others, most of them tailored towards Clerics (either because they're the spellcasters most suited towards the task or because they're flavored as servants of one god or the other). Some of the undead-hunter type classes that don't require TU are the Deadgrim (Magic of Eberron), which requires either TU or Favored Enemy (Undead) so at least a Ranger can get in and Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) that only requires divine spells. The Fighter is still out of luck though...

However Deities and Demigods has the Soldier of Light class which doesn't require any of that, so our Fighter can actually enter it - to get the spells and TU he was missing to enter the other classes ;)

[Blackhawk748]

However Deities and Demigods has the Soldier of Light class which doesn't require any of that, so our Fighter can actually enter it - to get the spells and TU he was missing to enter the other classes ;)

And it doesnt suck, who woulda thunk it? Joking aside it actually is pretty good, spells, fast healing, some of the best paladin features, low entry requirements. I think im gonna make a Soldier of Light next time i wanna make a Vampire Hunter, and he shall be a Fighter.

[torrasque666]

So while complaining about classes that require TU, everyone is forgetting that Paladin gets it at 4th? AND has a couple ways to get rid of the casting if you want it?

[Extra Anchovies]

So while complaining about classes that require TU, everyone is forgetting that Paladin gets it at 4th? AND has a couple ways to get rid of the casting if you want it?

I think the gripe is that those PrCs can't be entered without Paladin or Cleric.

[Divayth Fyr]

So while complaining about classes that require TU, everyone is forgetting that Paladin gets it at 4th? AND has a couple ways to get rid of the casting if you want it?

The very post that brought this issue up basically did mention it.

Oh, and another of my major PrC gripes: there is (AFAIK) no Undead-slaying PrC that doesn't require Turn Undead. Oh, you wanted to play a Fighter or Ranger who really hates undead and has a PrC to back it up? Sorry, you need a Cleric dip - in fact, why not just play a Cleric or Paladin instead?

If you got rid of the spells AND the Code of Conduct a Paladin could be a form of alternative for the simple Fighter (though it still brings up the issue of "why can't I become an undead slayer, but can be a specialized hunter of X, Y and Z types of creatures") though that still locks out Rangers (even those built for fighting undead) out of a large part of those classes.