Let's ALL Read: The Thrawn Trilogy

[nyjastul69]

I'm finding Zahn's pacing excellent. Quick and informative character introductions, plot elements being put in place well and just an overall sense of balance in the story so far. Zahn is impressing me as writer. He has been very efficient thus far.

So far, so good... so what so on to the next 2 chapters.

[Yora]

Oh yeah. I read the first few chapters of Gardens of the Moon, and by the point I had covered as many pages as we have now with Heir to the Empire, nothing had really happened yet. This book is really focusing on the plot and does not spend the majority of pages on setting the mood.

[Dragonus45]

Oh yeah. I read the first few chapters of Gardens of the Moon, and by the point I had covered as many pages as we have now with Heir to the Empire, nothing had really happened yet. This book is really focusing on the plot and does not spend the majority of pages on setting the mood.

I think that helps to maintain the watching a star wars movie feel that he mentions he was aiming for in the annotations.

[pendell]

Chapter 9

Admiral Thrawn stages a simultaneous raid on three planets using Joruus C'baoth both to co-ordinate the raids and to augment their effectiveness via battle meditation.

Pelleon notes the improvement of the Chimaera and its cohorts in the arena of precision hyperspace navigation, one of Thrawn's core competencies, allowing them to strike with speed at enemy weak points. The Chimaera is weak in the arena of formal military protocol, but is greatly improving in the art of warfighting.

This gives Zahn the opportunity to comment:

The third quality of a good commander: The ability to see what is most valuable in his troops. Competence and the ability to learn are more important than the trappings of pomp and pageantry.

Or, as Murphy's Laws of Combat has it: No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat; not combat-ready unit ever passed inspection.

Outcome of the raid:
All three planets are hit for significant damage.


C'baoth:

Battle meditation improves the Chimaera's efficiency by 40%.

Communications:
Able to detect in general the mindset of the crews, but cannot give a detailed situation report based on what is essentially intuition.

He is, however, able to pass on Thrawn's execute order.

Halfway through the mission, Thrawn changes the plan and orders C'baoth to have the Nemesis break off ahead of schedule. This is a test of C'baoth's ability to respond to what is in American football called an audible ; a deviation from the plan by the commander on-the-spot to respond to a fluid situation. It is a chance to determine both C'baoth's capabilities and his willingness to take orders in a crisis situation.

Zahn notes:

The fourth quality of a good commander; he plans ahead as much as possible.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this; planning is important, but it's important to remain flexible and able to respond to situations. Overplanning can take away the initiative of subordinates and turn a beautiful plan into a clusterf-oo.

Actually, ALL military plans turn into a clusterfoo; the people who win are the ones skilled at salvaging something workable from the wreck. This is an inevitable consequence of the Friction of war .

So it's well not to fall too much in love with your plans.

At any rate, the raids are successful and the Imperials withdraw, leaving the New Republic in a tizzy.

It wouldn't be a C'baoth scene if he didn't find some opportunity to gripe and complain; in this case he wants his Jedi, like a spoiled child waiting for a toy. Thrawn is angered at his continued petulance, but shows little of this outwardly.

MEANWHILE...

Talon Karrde and Mara Jade arrive in system to see the battle. Karrde scrubs his mission , on account of being intelligent and knowing full well that a planet soon to be swarming with New Republic warships is not a place to bring contraband. He does, however, stay to watch the battle in order to gain intelligence on his new adversary. This upsets Mara Jade. She does NOT like to break promises.

Karrde notes this ... as do we, the audience.

Leia trains on lightsaber practice with Luke. They discuss the recent imperial raid. They decide to visit one of the planets hit. This planet was noted as the home of a Dark Jedi who later went to Dagobah. This is of interest to Luke, who decides to check out Dagobah himself.

Chapter 9

Han and Leia are on Bpfassh, one of the planets hit. They speculate on the reason for the attack, and deduce it must have been to test whatever system they have which allows them to coordinate three strikes across interstellar distances. They further speculate it may be a Dark Jedi, and Wedge volunteers a rumor he's heard about a Jedi by the name of Jorus C'baoth on the planet Jomark. He doesn't know, of course, that this is a rumor planted by Imperial intelligence in response to Pelleon's suggestion several chapters ago. Chekhov's Gun for the win!

Of course, this being a diplomatic mission, it's required that they be ambushed by Noghri out to capture them. The capture team is a bit more cunning this time; using a squad as 'beaters' , they attempt to panic our heroes into fleeing into the "Millenium Falcon".

Only it's not the Falcon. It's another ship of the same make and model, presumably customized to resemble the Falcon as closely as possible. The heroes should run into the ship and are instantly captured.

But it doesn't work. The lack of a bottom-mounted blaster plus Leia's inability to Force-sense Chewbacca on the ship makes her suspicious. One natural roll of 20 on the Perception skill later, Han realizes the ship is a phony.

Well, we can't be having that. They pretend to run aboard, then divert at the last second. Han borrows Leia's lightsaber to sabotage the ship's coolant, grounding it. The capture team departs in an escape pod. Han also took the opportunity to call for help, and a squadron of X-wings ends this little party.

The presence of two capture teams indicates the Empire has real-time intelligence on their movements; therefore, there must be a security leak at the highest levels. Ackbar doesn't take well to this suggestion; he is feeling the heat from Counselor Fey'la and this gives Fey'la more ammunition to make the case that the Republic military needs new leadership i.e. himself.

With that avenue firmly closed in their faces, our heroes look for a slicer[=computer hacker] to see if they can investigate the issue on their own. Working outside the law is what Han and Leia do best.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this; planning is important, but it's important to remain flexible and able to respond to situations. Overplanning can take away the initiative of subordinates and turn a beautiful plan into a clusterf-oo.

Zahn's quite right. The more planning you do ahead of time, the more likely you are to be able to respond to an unexpected development properly instead of having to pull a response out of nowhere. Even if you didn't plan for that exact contingency, you are very likely to have considered something close enough to have a "good enough" response to pull out. The ability to improvise is important, but a planned response is always better.

[pendell]

In the modern army, that may be true. I'm thinking of the lessons of World War 1 . Back then, artillery barrages went on for days before the offensive finally kicked off. Since this meticulous, pre-planned operation took so long, the enemy had more than enough time to rush reserves to the point of penetration. Result: Four years of inconclusive fighting and indescribable carnage.

Ah... here's the paragraph.

The new assault method had men rushing forward in small groups using whatever cover was available and laying down suppressive fire for other groups in the same unit as they moved forward. The new tactics, which were intended to achieve tactical surprise, were to attack the weakest parts of an enemy's line, bypass his strongpoints and to abandon the futile attempt to have a grand and detailed plan of operations controlled from afar. Instead, junior leaders could exercise initiative on the spot. Any enemy strong points which had not been overrun by stormtroopers could be attacked by the second echelon troops following the stormtroopers.

The lesson learned on both sides was to make a much more 'hasty' operation and to cede more initiative to subordinates, rather than planning the individual actions of a battalion at the Corps-level and higher. This resulted in the modern concepts of the Commander's Intent in which subordinates who clearly understand the operation's purpose can fulfill the operational concept even if/when the plan goes in the wastebasket. Say, when a squiggle on the map proves to be, not a gentle stream that comes to your toes, but a shoulder-high flood.

I'm given to understand that modern technology has sometimes proven a hindrance in the field, as GPS technology and rapid communication can sometimes lead HQs to believe they have a lot more knowledge and control of the battlefield than they really do.

I have no military experience; I do know in my own life that too much attention to contingencies has occasionally resulted in analysis paralysis .

So I know there's a balance between over-planning and being slapdash; Thrawn seems to have hit that balance perfectly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

In the modern army, that may be true. I'm thinking of the lessons of World War 1 . Back then, artillery barrages went on for days before the offensive finally kicked off. Since this meticulous, pre-planned operation took so long, the enemy had more than enough time to rush reserves to the point of penetration. Result: Four years of inconclusive fighting and indescribable carnage.

That wasn't overplanning. That was "a bad plan". They thought that week-long artillery barrages sapped the will of the enemy to fight and caused a lot of damage. Later analysis showed that nearly every shell after the first three or four seconds was completely useless in physical terms (causing casualties only in the unlikely event a ground-fused shell penetrated a bunker), and the morale effect wasn't as pronouced as thought.

[Seerow]

Hrm missed a few days. Got some catching up to do tonight it seems.

[Cikomyr]

I think Zhan's comment about planning ahead as much as possible wasnt meant to be taken as "Thrawn has a super master plan", but instead meant to say " Thrawn has to know ahead of time if his Dark Jedi comm unit will be reliable ".

Understanding the capacities and limits of your C&C system is a critical aspect of genuine command; becoming ever more important the higher you go up the command chain. Thrawn is planning wheter he could send new orders on the fly or not.

[pendell]

I think Zhan's comment about planning ahead as much as possible wasnt meant to be taken as "Thrawn has a super master plan", but instead meant to say " Thrawn has to know ahead of time if his Dark Jedi comm unit will be reliable ".

Understanding the capacities and limits of your C&C system is a critical aspect of genuine command; becoming ever more important the higher you go up the command chain. Thrawn is planning wheter he could send new orders on the fly or not.

Agreed with both statements; Thrawn is doing something very intelligent, which is to test his new system thoroughly under combat conditions before he bets the Empire on them. Imagine how different the GFFA would be if all Imperial commanders did the same!


Chapter 11
Luke returns to Dagobah to follow up the lead he received last chapter. The dark side tree torments him; this time not a vision of the future, but of an alternate past. In this past, a force-wielding woman intervenes at a critical moment during Han's rescue from Jabba, resulting in the death of him and all his friends.

This raises up a point: The Dark Side can give visions, and those visions are of fear and torment. In the GFFA these visions are always true -- but they tell you the truth about yourself you either don't need or don't want to know.

...

I think Zahn is onto something here, and it may have carried over into the prequels as well. I recall that in Episode 3 Anakin had a terrible, tormenting dream of Padme dying in childbirth. This was a true , Force-given dream -- but his actions from that point on, intended to prevent this death, instead brought it about.

Because of this, I suspect Anakin's dreams were being influenced by the Dark Side of the Force. He was experiencing a Dark Side vision, much as Luke experience a Dark Side vision of himself as Vader in Episode 5.

But .. Luke was in a tree strong in the Dark Side of the Force.. where was Anakin's Dark coming from?

Had he opened himself to the Dark Side through his massacre of a sand people village? The Republic government may have forgiven him, but that doesn't mean the Force has.

Or is Darth Sidious attempting to manipulate him through the Force ?

Or are both these things true? Is Sidious manipulating Anakin, who is vulnerable to such a manipulation because of his earlier flirtations with the Dark Side?

At any rate, vision over, Luke finds an electronic artifact within the cave. He departs to have it analyzed.

Chapter 12

For just one brief, shining moment the SW universe flirts with hard science fiction. My inner geek spends several minutes shouting in ecstasy. The new system we visit is evidently superhot, necessitating the creation of purpose-built 'shieldships' to screen normal vessels from the sun's radiation while transiting the system. The surface of the planet evidently becomes incredibly hot during it's 'day', so the human base on the planet is not stationary. Rather, it is a surplus Dreadnaught being carried on the back of 40 or so AT-AT walkers, also surplus. This massive contraption continuously outpaces the terminator, keeping the station in lifegiving darkness as it endlessly walks around the planet.

This is one of Lando's endless schemes, and Han and Leia are here to visit. After providing information that only he could know, they prepare for a ten-hour transit under shieldship cover to the planet. They are joined by an X-wing ostensibly piloted by Luke under cover of the shieldship, but recent events have made Han and Leia wary. Rather than accept this at face value, they attempt to deduce methods to prove it really is Luke out there. Leia's force sense is inconclusive, but they eventually come up with a solution. C-3PO calls over, and they receive a response from an unmistakable R2D2. Their mutual identities established, they resume their journey in-system ...

at least, until an ISD jumps in. We'll see what that means next chapter...

...

I have to say that in some ways this story is a breath of fresh air compared to some other media. Everyone in this story is competent. Zahn seems to be working very hard to keep the Idiot Ball out of the hands of his characters, and when they do make a mistake it is the kind of honest mistake an intelligent person could make, not simple idiocy. Even Thrawn's dispatch of the Noghri, which I criticized for lack of preparation and Jedi-specific training, turns out to be not stupid as the Noghri respond quickly and well to the challenges posed by their quarry.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[nyjastul69]

Excellent synopsis thus far pendell, thank you for doing so. Not much to say about the story other than it'soving along well. I'd like to get back to what Thrawn & Co. are up to.

[Zolem]

Im sorry, GFFA version? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

[pendell]

Im sorry, GFFA version? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

GFFA = Galaxy Far Far Away. The universe in which the Star Wars Saga is set. Includes any extragalactic polities or sentient beings which may interact with the galaxy.

Excellent synopsis thus far pendell, thank you for doing so.

Thanks! I was a bit concerned I was over-participating, sucking the oxygen out of the room for the other posters. It's nice to know that isn't happening!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aotrs Commander]

I must say, it is nice to see that, yes, the trilogy is still holding up very nicely to most everyone re-reading it. Sort makes one feel a little bit justified...!

[TheThan]

I have to say that in some ways this story is a breath of fresh air compared to some other media. Everyone in this story is competent. Zahn seems to be working very hard to keep the Idiot Ball out of the hands of his characters, and when they do make a mistake it is the kind of honest mistake an intelligent person could make, not simple idiocy. Even Thrawn's dispatch of the Noghri, which I criticized for lack of preparation and Jedi-specific training, turns out to be not stupid as the Noghri respond quickly and well to the challenges posed by their quarry.

Yeah,
Aside from the story; the best aspects of the book is how skilled everyone is. Thus far; Han shows off plenty of ingenuity and resourcefulness. Leia’s fledging force powers come into play and we get to see Luke do his thing. The Noghri are cleaver, skilled and dangerous (even when not trying to be lethal) and the main villains are showing their competence at their job.

[LadyEowyn]

I have to say that in some ways this story is a breath of fresh air compared to some other media. Everyone in this story is competent. Zahn seems to be working very hard to keep the Idiot Ball out of the hands of his characters, and when they do make a mistake it is the kind of honest mistake an intelligent person could make, not simple idiocy. Even Thrawn's dispatch of the Noghri, which I criticized for lack of preparation and Jedi-specific training, turns out to be not stupid as the Noghri respond quickly and well to the challenges posed by their quarry.

That's one of my favourite things about Zahn's books as well. Far too often - especially in the Star Wars Expanded Universe - the heroes are fairly dumb but win because the villains are even more incompetent.

Spoiler

Show

Kevin J Anderson's books - the Jedi Academy Trilogy, Darksaber, and the Young Jedi Knights books - are particularly bad offenders, where the villains come close to defeating themselves purely by utter incompetence, and the heroes are able to take them down without any complex thought, planning, or tactics. Trying to pass Daala off as the next Thrawn made it worse.

Interactions between intelligent, thoughtful heroes and villains are so much more interesting.

The Thrawn Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn Duology are, in my opinion, Zahn's best books. He's consistently exceptional at putting together complex and multilayered plots, but in many of his other books the characters aren't compelling enough to really engage me. These two series strike the perfect balance between plot and characterization.

Oh, and thanks for explaining the acronym, pendell. I thought it was referring to a governing organization in the Legacy of the Force series, which also abbreviates to GFFA, and it was confusing me.

[pendell]

Chapter 13

The Star Destroyer Judicator arrives in the Nkllon system. Unshielded, it's sensors are fried by the primary's radiation within seconds, rendering it blind. It's possible the armament is lost as well.

Fortunately for them, Jorus C'baoth is guiding the ship remotely, and it is of sufficient precision that the ship is able to drive into the planetary shadow. There, in the relative 'cool', it deploys fighters and landing craft.

Thrawn's experiment in the last few chapters is starting to show dividends. Now he takes it up a notch: Can C'baoth guide a warship blind through a jump and fight on the other end of it?

The answer to both these questions is "Yes".

Our heroes, trapped in the gravity well, cannot go to hyperspace and escape. So Luke in his X-wing and Han in the Millenium Falcon take on the entire contingent of TIE fighters by themselves.

To equalize the odds, Luke uses the Force to sow confusion in the minds of the enemy pilots and suffers a degree of reaction as his powers are perilously close to the Dark Side.

... From Zahn's point of view, anyway. Can someone explain to me why force-guiding a torpedo which will kill millions of people in a Death Star is 'light side' while nonlethally confusing an enemy pilot is 'Dark Side'?

I'm not sure all authors in the EU take the same tack on that. At any rate, Luke suffers the aftereffects of this.

C'baoth detects Luke's consciousness during the battle, and implants a suggestion in Luke to find C'baoth.

The Falcon and Luke's Xwing take a major toll on the Imperial forces, but neither is an Imperial objective; the troop carriers are a decoy. The REAL objective is to capture as many Mole Miners from the Nklllon facility as they can. Once they have successfully bagged 51 of them, the fighters and carriers return to the Judicator. Guided by C'baoth again, it retreats at maximum speed until it is able to conduct a lightspeed jump, leaving a very confused team of heroes behind.

AFTERMATH: IMPERIAL
Thrawn is very pleased with the capture of 51 Mole Miners for his scheme.

... Has anyone who HASN'T read these books have a speculation as to why he has them ... ?

The damage to the Judicator, which will take several days to repair, is considered acceptable. It's not like it will be in dry dock for months; it must have suffered mostly surface damage.

However, he is less pleased to hear that Skywalker was in the battle, that C'baoth was aware of it, and neglected to inform Thrawn for personal reasons. This got his troops killed and put the mission at risk.

A lesser man would go apes*t at this revelation. The only visible reaction from Thrawn is a slight smoulder to his red eyes. In the scales on which one side is marked 'asset' and the other is marked 'liability', C'baoth has just dropped a BIG marker on the 'liability' side.

They snipe like two cats in a sack. Afterwards, Thrawn believes C'baoth, and so orders Pelleon to deliver C'baoth to the planet Jomark for his rendezvous with Skywalker. However, after this delivery takes place, he orders Pelleon to set up an ambush point on the most likely X-wing route between Jomark and Nkllon. He intends to ambush Skywalker, and then decide whether to capture him or kill him.

I'm a bit disappointed in Thrawn. He had no qualms about capturing Luke earlier. I suspect his anger at C'baoth is beginning to influence his conduct of the battle, never a good thing in a commander. Thrawn also reminds us, by echoing Vader's 'altering the deal' line, that he's still a villain, willing to break his word.

Pelleon -- who may be a little lightsided ? -- speaks up for Skywalker, urging his live capture if feasible , advancing the plausible military rationalization that this will distract C'baoth and keep him away from Wayland, where Thrawn's plans might otherwise be thrown off schedule by C'baoth's interference. While plausible, I suspect this is merely a rationalizations covering Pelleon's dislike both of murder and of oathbreaking, a sin in any culture that values honor.

Thrawn is persuaded by Pelleon, demonstrating his military virtue again in being willing to listen to his subordinate, and so amends his orders.

Chapter 14

The heroes are completely baffled by the Imperials' behavior. Why did they steal 51 Mole Miners -- half of Nkllon's work force? Were they there for Leia and Luke? If so, why did they not press harder to capture them?

Lando joins them and informs them the leak must not have come from Nkllon. There are many scoundrels in Nkllon, and all of them are motivated by money. But there is no bounty on Luke and Leia -- Lando is straight these days but not out of touch -- and so no reason for anyone on the planet to turn them in. Conclusion: The leak is at Coruscant.

The heroes discuss the need of a slicer which will enable Leia to tap into a diplomatic system while remaining covert. The name Talon Karrde comes up as a person who has the contacts, both wealthy and noted for honesty in his illegal dealings.

In the meantime, they must find a place for Leia to hide. Chewbacca volunteers to hide them on Kasshyk. The Wookie homeworld is quite insular due to the former slave trade, so few outsiders will be able to find them there. Leia agrees. They also program C-3PO such that he can impersonate Leia audibly.

Luke departs to investigate the rumors of a Jedi master on Jomark, augmented by the message he received during the battle. Leia warns him to exercise extreme caution; by her lights there are no known surviving Jedi, so this one may very well be Dark, one of the Emperor's servants. In this she guesses all too astutely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

Chapter 13
... From Zahn's point of view, anyway. Can someone explain to me why force-guiding a torpedo which will kill millions of people in a Death Star is 'light side' while nonlethally confusing an enemy pilot is 'Dark Side'?

I think its less an issue of result and more an issue of the individual tactics. You can use the force to guide yourself or your weapons but invading another persons mind to kill them, or possible for any reason is a dark side action.

[OracleofSilence]

i don't really buy that argument. That sounds exactly like a Jedi mind trick, which is explicitly a light side force poeer.

[pendell]

i don't really buy that argument. That sounds exactly like a Jedi mind trick, which is explicitly a light side force poeer.

Depends on the source. KOTOR has "Affect Mind" and it's more powerful cousin "Dominate Mind" as a neutral power , available to both Light and Dark users. Depending on how Force Persuade is used, it is fairly easy to rack up Dark Side points with it even if it is technically neutral.

Still, 'Force Stun', 'Force Stasis', and 'Force Stasis field' are all light side powers, would all work in this situation, and are all more invasive [IMO] than affecting perception. So the question is still up in the air. The division between 'light side' and 'dark side' powers appears somewhat arbitrary.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

Depends on the source. KOTOR has "Affect Mind" and it's more powerful cousin "Dominate Mind" as a neutral power , available to both Light and Dark users. Depending on how Force Persuade is used, it is fairly easy to rack up Dark Side points with it even if it is technically neutral.

Still, 'Force Stun', 'Force Stasis', and 'Force Stasis field' are all light side powers, would all work in this situation, and are all more invasive [IMO] than affecting perception. So the question is still up in the air. The division between 'light side' and 'dark side' powers appears somewhat arbitrary.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I suppose stun and stasis are a nonlethal way of disabling your opponent. Can't quite manage to put it into words but I do think there is a difference between what Luke does here and the Jedi Mind Trick.

[Aotrs Commander]

I was always under the impression that it was among Zhan's attempts to keep the Force usage to a relatively low, subtle level, so it couldn't be spammed as the solution to every problem. (Notably in the later duology he made a pretty overt attempt to kurb the ridiculoudly silly levels other authors had been using at in the intervening years.) One of the things Zhan did most right in m opinion was that the Thrawn trilogy was not about the Jedi. The Jedi were in it, and Force-users were important to the plot - as in the original movies - but they weren't THE plot. Something that WAAAY too many other authors and writers forget or just plain ignore: Star Wars is not about magic space samurai. There are magic space samurai in it, but they are not - or rather SHOULD not - be the end-all and be-all of the franchise. (Which they tend to be nowadays.)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Still, 'Force Stun', 'Force Stasis', and 'Force Stasis field' are all light side powers, would all work in this situation, and are all more invasive [IMO] than affecting perception. So the question is still up in the air. The division between 'light side' and 'dark side' powers appears somewhat arbitrary.

It is fairly arbitrary, but then all Star Wars games like slotting Force powers into arbitrary categories because making balanced freeform Force powers would be very complex in a tabletop game and nigh-impossible in a cRPG. Those powers seem to be tagged "light side" on KotOR mostly because it's nice and symmetrical to have five Light and five Dark powers, and "nonlethal" means "Light" in their minds, not because of any deep philosophical reason.

I suppose stun and stasis are a nonlethal way of disabling your opponent. Can't quite manage to put it into words but I do think there is a difference between what Luke does here and the Jedi Mind Trick.

Agreed. Using Stun, Stasis, Mind Trick, or the like on an enemy starfighter pilot in the middle of a battle so he ends up ramming into another fighter or being a sitting bantha for a proton torpedo and dying horribly while fully aware but unable to do anything about it would be a fairly Dark act even though most uses of those powers are considered Light because the Jedi take pains to only use them in non-life-threatening circumstances. Meanwhile, in the Jedi Knight series of games Force Grip/Choke is the only Force power that lets you move people around in a controlled manner (as opposed to chucking them around with Push and Pull) and is classified as a Dark power, but outside of the game context using that ability to, say, move someone out of the way of an out-of-control landspeeder and save their life would be a very Light act.

[pendell]

I was always under the impression that it was among Zhan's attempts to keep the Force usage to a relatively low, subtle level, so it couldn't be spammed as the solution to every problem.

I think you hit the right of it; in Zahn's world over-use of the force for ANY reason, light or dark, leads to corruption.

I also agree that reining in Jedi so that they are in the story but not completely overwhelming is what makes the Zahn books so good, at least compared to much of the rest of the EU.

As towards KOTOR, the rule of thumb I arrived at as a player is that light side buffs or heals the PC, while dark side powers explicitly attack enemies. Ironically, I found the light side powers to be far more useful in battle, as they gave quite an edge but didn't cost a great deal. Dark Side Powers often felt like I was throwing force points away for little more impact than I could get with a blaster or lightsaber.

As towards force stasis -- perhaps I'm overthinking this but I am rather curious as to exactly how that works. The first thought that comes to mind is some kind of disruption in the nervous system, preventing the brain from communicating with the rest of the body. If that is the way it's implemented then the power is extremely invasive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

I always see it as Yoda said it: use the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack.

It doesnt matter what "power" you use, its why you use them. Force-choking people to prevent them to breathe poisonous gas wouldnt be a Dark side action, as long as you do not actually kill them.

[pendell]

While I agree that 'knowledge and defense' are the basis for light-side use of the force, I'm not sure it's intent which is important; I think, rather, the emotional state of the wielder is what is important.

Take Force Lightning, for example. I understand that in order to create Force Lightning one must first experience intense anger, then channel it so that this raw anger manifests physically as electricity.

Because of this, using force lightning will ALWAYS require accessing the Dark Side of the Force, even if you're using it to jumpstart a vehicle, act as a kind of backup power generator, or, perhaps, perform impromptu defibrillation in a heart attack victim..

So I don't think it's the intent which matters so much as the emotions necessary to perform the act. If you must attain a peaceful state of mind, free of passion , it is a light side power even if this peaceful state of mind is used to guide a proton torpedo to its target. By contrast, if the Force can only be accessed through strong passion, whether that be anger or lust or strong love, it is Dark Side.

Because of this "Dark" and "Light" in the Star Wars universe don't exactly map into real-world ethics of good and evil. That is, unless you subscribe to the philosophy that strong emotion always equates to evil while coolheaded, rational thought free of attachment or passion always equates to good. *I* do not.

KOTOR

Spoiler

Show

Because of this, I have a great deal more respect for the character of Jolee Bindo [who was lightsided but only just above gray] than I have for the much more lightsided Bastila. She may have been more lightsided, but the resultant lack of attachment and passion bred arrogance, contributing to her fall to the dark side -- which may be temporary or permanent, at the player's discretion.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

The flip side of that is that it has somehow become ok to use Sith lightning as a light side Jedi.

I think this was done mostly so people could use the badass lightning powers while being “good” in video games. Removing the dualistic nature of the force removes the necessity of making two different endings. (the latter Jedi knight games come to mind)

This has made people come to the conclusion that it’s not the powers that are evil, but the people using them.

However, if you must tap into those negative emotions to use that power, you're drawing upon the dark side of the force.

[pendell]

The flip side of that is that it has somehow become ok to use Sith lightning as a light side Jedi.

I think this was done mostly so people could use the badass lightning powers while being “good” in video games. Removing the dualistic nature of the force removes the necessity of making two different endings. (the latter Jedi knight games come to mind)

This has made people come to the conclusion that it’s not the powers that are evil, but the people using them.

However, if you must tap into those negative emotions to use that power, you're drawing upon the dark side of the force.

Oh, you can tap into those power as light side but there's a penalty for doing so. The more lightsided you are, the harder it is to access dark side powers , which in-game is modeled as an increased cost in force points.

I think that's plausible, if we accept that Yoda was somewhat mistaken about the statement that 'starting down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny'. All Jedi, even the most lightsided, go dark from time to time. I've heard it suggested that Obi-Wan was accessing the Dark Side when he bisected Darth Maul in Episode 1. It's not proper Jedi behavior, but one dark side use every decade is not going to corrupt you into a Sith Lord.

And then there's the whole issue of Mace Windu. His lightsaber is purple because he does INDEED access his inner darkness , even though he is a lightsided Jedi. I suspect that's why his purple lightsaber is a mixture of red and blue -- sith and Jedi. His approach and philosophy to the Force are somewhat different from Master Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, but neither of those two luminaries even suggest that Mace is flirting with the Dark Side when he does what he does.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

And then there's the whole issue of Mace Windu. His lightsaber is purple because he does INDEED access his inner darkness , even though he is a lightsided Jedi. I suspect that's why his purple lightsaber is a mixture of red and blue -- sith and Jedi. His approach and philosophy to the Force are somewhat different from Master Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, but neither of those two luminaries even suggest that Mace is flirting with the Dark Side when he does what he does.

That's not the in-universe reason given - but it makes sense for it to be the out-of-universe visual cue for the watchers.

[nyjastul69]

Pendell, I have read the books and I can't recall what the miners are for. I haven't really thought about it though. I tend to try not to out think the plot.