Baldur's Gate: The Thread

[Sylthia]

This is the truth, by ToB you aren't going to ever give a heck about your AC, it mostly just looks nice but resistances and other boni trump AC by that time.

I think you're the only person besides myself who uses the word "boni".

[Morty]

The fight with Szass Tam at the conclusion of Neera's story was... weird. Initially, I clobbered him before he even managed to get his defensive spells out. Then when he said he'd teleport me out and I picked the third dialogue option, he pulled out a ring of wishes and, long story short, nuked my party off the face of Toril. I reloaded, tried again and picked the second option, where I accepted being teleported out. But my party kept attacking anyway, once again dealing heavy damage before he managed to do anything, at which point he got angry and teleported them out anyway.

[Sylthia]

I wonder why they didn't add a Sorcerer NPC with BG2:EE. The Kelsey Mod fills that hole nicely enough, but it would be nice to be part of the package.

The same could be said for Barbarian, I suppose, although Berserker seems to take a lot of what makes the Barbarian special.

[Cespenar]

I wonder why they didn't add a Sorcerer NPC with BG2:EE. The Kelsey Mod fills that hole nicely enough, but it would be nice to be part of the package.

In my opinion Nalia could be made one easily. There were no need for one more thief/mage.

[Inarius]

In my opinion Nalia could be made one easily. There were no need for one more thief/mage.

Heh that's a good point, I'll probably keeper her over to sorcerer the next time I play BG2.

[Calemyr]

Heh that's a good point, I'll probably keeper her over to sorcerer the next time I play BG2.

Personally, I'm tempted to just recast Neera as a sorceress. Wild magic... sorcery... both are cutting magic from whole cloth in a way traditional mages can't figure out, yeah? That way Neera is useful rather than a destructive ball of randomness, without losing the basic strangeness about her.

Of course, I always like the idea of the Scion being a red dragon disciple and refluffing the draconic abilities for divine, too, but that's just me.

This is the truth, by ToB you aren't going to ever give a heck about your AC, it mostly just looks nice but resistances and other boni trump AC by that time.

You are right, of course. Do note, however, that I said BG2, not ToB. AC still matters for most if not all of SoA. And for much of it monks are brutal combat monsters with only one weakness, decent-at-best AC. In ToB it no longer matters, but by then he's already an avatar of destruction. This little stunt takes monks from joke to decent in BG1, from decent to broken in SoA, and leaves them broken in ToB.

[Sylthia]

Personally, I'm tempted to just recast Neera as a sorceress. Wild magic... sorcery... both are cutting magic from whole cloth in a way traditional mages can't figure out, yeah? That way Neera is useful rather than a destructive ball of randomness, without losing the basic strangeness about her.

Of course, I always like the idea of the Scion being a red dragon disciple and refluffing the draconic abilities for divine, too, but that's just me.

I may very well Shadow Keeper Neera to Sorc. That won't mess her quest up, though, will it?

Picking up Neera might make me a bit Arcane heavy, since I already will have Kelsey, Imoen, and sometimes a third Mage tagging along. It's part of the reason I haven't gotten her yet.

[Morty]

She needs to cast Reckless Dweomer to progress through her quest in Throne of Bhaal.

[Calemyr]

She needs to cast Reckless Dweomer to progress through her quest in Throne of Bhaal.

You can still give that to her as a sorceress, though. Makes sense, actually, as it'd just mean she's still a wild mage, just an actually playable one - Ability to draw on chaos without being constantly crippled by it.

[Sylthia]

You can still give that to her as a sorceress, though. Makes sense, actually, as it'd just mean she's still a wild mage, just an actually playable one - Ability to draw on chaos without being constantly crippled by it.

Yeah, after having no major mishaps for most of BG1, she went and Healed Sarevok during the final battle, so I'm a bit wary taking her on now, especially since BG2 is more reliant on mages.

[Inarius]

Not really a fan of wild mages either. They're variable spell casters in a game with static challenges that are designed to be beaten by the player. The good wild surges and spell level castings will turn winnable fights into easier winnable fights while the bad spell surges can totally wreck you on harder fights that would have been winnable elsewise.

[Sylthia]

Not really a fan of wild mages either. They're variable spell casters in a game with static challenges that are designed to be beaten by the player. The good wild surges and spell level castings will turn winnable fights into easier winnable fights while the bad spell surges can totally wreck you on harder fights that would have been winnable elsewise.

That's pretty much my reasoning. In a similar vein, I'm not a fan of Fumbles Tables for critical misses in tabletop D&D. Missing is bad enough, don't want to add insult to injury.

[Feytalist]

Picking up Neera might make me a bit Arcane heavy, since I already will have Kelsey, Imoen, and sometimes a third Mage tagging along. It's part of the reason I haven't gotten her yet.

I have three dualed / multi'd mages in my party all the time anyway.

Which might not be the best of ideas, I realised a while back. I'm in the Underdark now, and none of my mages are even capable of casting level 7 spells yet. Hmm.

Getting there, though.

[Inarius]

3 mages isn't too bad in SoA, but I find it's just a hassle in ToB due to everything having innate magic resistance. I find myself just having my mages buffing the melee and thowing darts during most normal fights while my melee characters destroy everything. There is lower resist but its just too tedious to cast on every normal mob every fight to be able to have decent odds of sticking a spell. If there was an AE variant of it at a higher level I would probably use it, but since there isn't one I dont bother anymore except on bosses and other tough baddies.

[Kish]

There are spells that ignore magic resistance, you know.

[Feytalist]

There are spells that ignore magic resistance, you know.

The first thing I thought of was "I CAST FIST"


I still use my mages pretty offensively in TOB. Every so often a Chromatic Orb still goes through, or a Chaos turns some mobs. Most of the other times just for summoning distractions or Energy Blades, if all else fails. It's spell-casting enemies where they shine.

[Calemyr]

The first thing I thought of was "I CAST FIST"


I still use my mages pretty offensively in TOB. Every so often a Chromatic Orb still goes through, or a Chaos turns some mobs. Most of the other times just for summoning distractions or Energy Blades, if all else fails. It's spell-casting enemies where they shine.

There's an aspect of the BG Tweaks mod that I really like for this stuff: It adds a -1 to the save penalty of a spell for every five levels you are above the minimum casting level. At level 11, for instance, chromatic orb comes with a save at a +4 bonus rather than the standard +6. Sleep would be at a -5 penalty rather than a -3 (though not many things are vulnerable to sleep anymore). Should work well for keeping higher level mages from becoming losing utility in the vast majority of their spells.

[Sylthia]

There's an aspect of the BG Tweaks mod that I really like for this stuff: It adds a -1 to the save penalty of a spell for every five levels you are above the minimum casting level. At level 11, for instance, chromatic orb comes with a save at a +4 bonus rather than the standard +6. Sleep would be at a -5 penalty rather than a -3 (though not many things are vulnerable to sleep anymore). Should work well for keeping higher level mages from becoming losing utility in the vast majority of their spells.

On the one hand, that's pretty nice, but on the other hand, mages are already top tier without the extra help.

[Inarius]

There are spells that ignore magic resistance, you know.

Very few of them now that the bug with self targeting spells was fixed in the EE versions. I do use dragonsbreath when I feel like nuking or throw out a sequenced skulltrap to beat magic resistance through sheer odds. I just feel its sort of annoying especially when you consider it's an extra mechanic thrown on top of the spell saves mechanic. Mages are still essential but it's not worth having more than 2 of them because hasted warrior classes will just kill the magic resistant mundane mobs faster with some of the crazy endgame weapons out there.

[Sylthia]

Very few of them now that the bug with self targeting spells was fixed in the EE versions. I do use dragonsbreath when I feel like nuking or throw out a sequenced skulltrap to beat magic resistance through sheer odds. I just feel its sort of annoying especially when you consider it's an extra mechanic thrown on top of the spell saves mechanic. Mages are still essential but it's not worth having more than 2 of them because hasted warrior classes will just kill the magic resistant mundane mobs faster with some of the crazy endgame weapons out there.

I usually try to limit myself to a couple mages because there is a bit of a dearth of high quality mage gear, e.g. Robe of Vecna, whereas there is quite a bit of melee gear available.

[Wardog]

The first thing I thought of was "I CAST FIST"


I still use my mages pretty offensively in TOB. Every so often a Chromatic Orb still goes through, or a Chaos turns some mobs. Most of the other times just for summoning distractions or Energy Blades, if all else fails. It's spell-casting enemies where they shine.

That reminds me of the time I was facing Irenicus at the end of SoA.

My party had used up all its spells, and Irenicus was using Protection from Magical Weapons. I didn't have any non-magical weapons (why would I at that stage in the game?), so I just had everyone put their weapons down and punch the end-game boss super-wizard in the face, repeatedly.

[Sylthia]

That reminds me of the time I was facing Irenicus at the end of SoA.

My party had used up all its spells, and Irenicus was using Protection from Magical Weapons. I didn't have any non-magical weapons (why would I at that stage in the game?), so I just had everyone put their weapons down and punch the end-game boss super-wizard in the face, repeatedly.

If you drag out the fights long enough, do enemy mages run out of spells? I never really tested it.

[Cespenar]

If you drag out the fights long enough, do enemy mages run out of spells? I never really tested it.

Yes. In my first run, when the Cloak of Deflection wasn't yet patched, my Irenicus battle had last long enough for him to kill all of my party, maze Anomen, and Power Word Stun my mainchar. Then, running out of higher level spells, he got on to casting Cone of Colds at me, which got reflected, and ate at his Spell Turning or whatever. But his AI naturally didn't get the clue, so he threw another Cone of Cold, and another, and finally got rid of his own Spell Turning. Then, IIRC, he got down to Flame Arrows and Melfs and whatnot.

At the end I don't remember what exactly killed him, but it was a self-thrown level 3- spell.

[Winthur]

If you drag out the fights long enough, do enemy mages run out of spells? I never really tested it.

Yes indeed. It's a good, albeit somewhat cheesy in some cases, way to wait out protection spells, and there are some other types of situations which might help. I know that some people that had trouble with BG1's Daevaorn (for some reason) would keep the attrition until he ran out of his Dimension Doors, then cornering him and murdering him.

[Feytalist]

I've had liches come up to me and whacking me with their claws (well, trying to, anyway) after their offensive spells ran out. It's certainly possible.


And that's basically what I do all the time with Davaeorn. Basically because of those silly traps in the hallway before his lair. Summon some skellies and let them deal with him, is what I say.

[mangosta71]

It's actually kind of funny. In SoA/ToB, I'll have a stealthed thief running ahead of the party to scout/spot for the magic artillery, and liches without exception start casting (usually Time Stop) as soon as I'm in visual range. I run back around the corner/out of range and just wait it out - they never have a second one prepared. They spend the entire duration trying to get back into range, and as soon as it expires my entire party pounces and annihilates them.

[Calemyr]

It's actually kind of funny. In SoA/ToB, I'll have a stealthed thief running ahead of the party to scout/spot for the magic artillery, and liches without exception start casting (usually Time Stop) as soon as I'm in visual range. I run back around the corner/out of range and just wait it out - they never have a second one prepared. They spend the entire duration trying to get back into range, and as soon as it expires my entire party pounces and annihilates them.

Liches also have the immense vulnerability of Protection from Undead. That is a fun scroll, even better than Protection from Petrification vs basilisks or Protection from Magic vs mages... Unless you've got an AI mod giving undead some brains, they completely fail to react as you demolish them. It's a fairly cheap and easy way to obtain the Dawnstar and do Hexxat's initial quest (Dragomir is a monster at level 7) right out of the gate.

By the way, any Enhanced Edition players out there: can you confirm something for me? It seems like they fixed the Cleric/Ranger exploit in BG2EE. Now rangers only provide spells for levels they have spell slots for - ie you have to be Ranger level 8 for a Cleric/Ranger to get Entangle (level 1 spell). BG1EE, however, does not seem to have this fix, so an imported BG1EE character gets to keep their ubercaster status, but only for those druid spells that were present in BG1EE. Has anyone else seen this behavior?

[Sylthia]

Liches also have the immense vulnerability of Protection from Undead. That is a fun scroll, even better than Protection from Petrification vs basilisks or Protection from Magic vs mages... Unless you've got an AI mod giving undead some brains, they completely fail to react as you demolish them. It's a fairly cheap and easy way to obtain the Dawnstar and do Hexxat's initial quest (Dragomir is a monster at level 7) right out of the gate.

By the way, any Enhanced Edition players out there: can you confirm something for me? It seems like they fixed the Cleric/Ranger exploit in BG2EE. Now rangers only provide spells for levels they have spell slots for - ie you have to be Ranger level 8 for a Cleric/Ranger to get Entangle (level 1 spell). BG1EE, however, does not seem to have this fix, so an imported BG1EE character gets to keep their ubercaster status, but only for those druid spells that were present in BG1EE. Has anyone else seen this behavior?

I'll have to check it when I get home, but I think my Ranger/Cleric has Insect Swarm or whatever it's called.

[mangosta71]

I'll have to check it when I get home, but I think my Ranger/Cleric has Insect SwarmGod Mode or whatever it's called.

FTFY.

[Sylthia]

I'll have to check it when I get home, but I think my Ranger/Cleric has Insect Swarm or whatever it's called.

I indeed do have Insect Plague and what looks like the entire Cleric/Druid spell list on my Ranger/Cleric.