Baldur's Gate: The Thread

[Winthur]

Wait, so Beamdog DID change stuff to the actual gameplay and rules? Sigh. Now I am again unsure about picking up the EE or banging my head against the wall trying to get the real games to run on my new computer. Blast.

I never had a problem with BG under Windows 7, and AFAIK in order to get most of BGEE's functionality, you just need a few mods and bugfixes, under WeiDU finding and installing them does not take long. I'm pretty sure the GoG versions of the original saga should be pretty compatible with the system.

But yeah, I am not a fan of BGEE and I think I've posted numerous times why. BG2's engine doesn't work that well with BG1 - and BGEE forces you to play with it - yet it imbalances it a fair bit with how proficiencies and kits work.

BG1EE also does some really stupid and questionable things like putting in tons of overpowered magical stuff to cruise the game on and "fixing" Kivan so that instead of being a handy pickup in the early game for his bow skills he becomes a contemporary companion at most because EE designers brought back his quest about going to the Bandit Camp that Bioware removed from original BG1; that quest is on such a time limit that taking Kivan in Chapter 1 is no longer viable, and taking him late isn't so glamorous either. Dumb stuff like Shar-Teel getting ** in Two-Weapon Proficiency (which sucks in BG1, there's no incentive to do so when the best weapons are missile weapons and your early game THAC0 is so low) is also terrible, especially since I really liked Shar-Teel mechanically because you could make her into a fantastic Evil archer or skirmisher or even Fighter/Thief, but here she gets * dagger * longsword ** dualwielding. What the hell is this? Kivan starts with a Spear but his proficiency is in Halberd, too. I'm sure there's more of that stuff, when they released the game Quayle had a proficiency in a weapon his low STR didn't allow him to use, etc.

Honestly, that's not a change, that's a bug fix. You aren't supposed to be able to cast high level spells without a high int.

It's not even in the manual. It simply was never intended that way in BG. All the D&D based games take some liberties with the system. In case of BG2, the only thing this change does is piss you off and make a case for more micromanagement (hooray, I have to chug a very common potion every time I want to memorize a new high level spell!)

[kivzirrum]

I never had a problem with BG under Windows 7, and AFAIK in order to get most of BGEE's functionality, you just need a few mods and bugfixes. I'm pretty sure the GoG versions of the original saga should be pretty compatible with the system.

Nor did I. Alas, now I have a Windows 8.1, and I've encountered a few problems. I may be able to work around them, except one is that my new monitor is 1080 widescreen and I'm not certain there's a way to make the game less ugly on that without downloading the widescreen mod that I have heard decidedly mixed things about. It's a pickle, to be sure.

But yeah, I am not a fan of BGEE and I think I've posted numerous times why. BG2's engine doesn't work that well with BG1 - and BGEE forces you to play with it - yet it imbalances it a fair bit with how proficiencies and kits work.

BG1EE also does some really stupid and questionable things like putting in tons of overpowered magical stuff to cruise the game on and "fixing" Kivan so that instead of being a handy pickup in the early game for his bow skills he becomes a contemporary companion at most because EE designers brought back his quest about going to the Bandit Camp that Bioware removed from original BG1; that quest is on such a time limit that taking Kivan in Chapter 1 is no longer viable, and taking him late isn't so glamorous either. Dumb stuff like Shar-Teel getting ** in Two-Weapon Proficiency (which sucks in BG1, there's no incentive to do so when the best weapons are missile weapons and your early game THAC0 is so low) is also terrible, especially since I really liked Shar-Teel mechanically because you could make her into a fantastic Evil archer or skirmisher or even Fighter/Thief, but here she gets * dagger * longsword ** dualwielding. What the hell is this? Kivan starts with a Spear but his proficiency is in Halberd, too. I'm sure there's more of that stuff, when they released the game Quayle had a proficiency in a weapon his low STR didn't allow him to use, etc.

That Kivan one in particular sounds brutal, because picking him up in the early game is way better for his character progression, in my experience. That particular fix sounds more like they broke the character. Ugh.

[Winthur]

Nor did I. Alas, now I have a Windows 8.1, and I've encountered a few problems. I may be able to work around them, except one is that my new monitor is 1080 widescreen and I'm not certain there's a way to make the game less ugly on that without downloading the widescreen mod that I have heard decidedly mixed things about. It's a pickle, to be sure.

Play in windowed mode on some reasonable resolution, then. As for Infinity Engine games on Windows 8 fixes, some Polish techie claims that you can use DirectX Control Panel that you find in DirectX SDK (here's link to the thing you need from this package) and turn off "Use Hardware Acceleration" in DirectDraw to help with performance.

[Calemyr]

But yeah, I am not a fan of BGEE and I think I've posted numerous times why.

This is true. I provide the pros, you provide the cons. Opposing perspectives can be useful.

BG1EE also does some really stupid and questionable things like putting in tons of overpowered magical stuff to cruise the game on.

What items are these? There are some interesting ones, but the only good ones are late game (ie requiring access to Baldur's Gate). What overpowered items bother you?

It's not even in the manual. It simply was never intended that way in BG. All the D&D based games take some liberties with the system. In case of BG2, the only thing this change does is piss you off and make a case for more micromanagement (hooray, I have to chug a very common potion every time I want to memorize a new high level spell!)

I see your point. I found it a negligible thing because I mod away the int-based learning and max spells aspects anyway. As such, it never bothered me. The EE games are just a better base to build from than the originals, but then I like the new NPCs.

[kivzirrum]

This is true. I provide the pros, you provide the cons. Opposing perspectives can be useful.

Personally, I've found opposing perspectives very useful, and have appreciated the help you both and others have provided me with! At this point I'm thinking I'll use the advice Winthur just provided to try to get the game to run better as is now, and down the road I'll probably pick up BG EE just to see what I think one way or another. If I like it, great, if not, I'm only out twenty bucks Not a desirable situation, but could be worse!

... Though seriously, adding in that time limit for Kivan really peeves me. I always pick him up in chapter one!

[Winthur]

What items are these? There are some interesting ones, but the only good ones are late game (ie requiring access to Baldur's Gate). What overpowered items bother you?

The Stupefier. It's also mostly the fact that magical weapons are now much more abundant and early, which neuters the whole "broken metal" aspect of the BG1 storyline when you can bypass it so quickly and readily on your whole party. The Stupefier adds it up a notch simply by its crazy status effect. Items like Chelsey's Crusher are also pretty good. All the new NPCs start with a magical weapon of their own, as if they're not standing out enough on their own, like sore thumbs. I'm going to make a character who is going to be... ooh, a relative of this big bad Bhaalspawn from ToB! And he will be crazy strong... the strongest of all characters! And he will have his own magical sword! And his own, special class! And a previously non-PC race! And he will romance anyone! Let's cram all of that into this design! He's even evil for more "diversity", but his stats also mean he is a no-brainer choice for an evil party, vastly overshadowing interesting characters like (now nerfed!) Shar-Teel. You get him in FAI and he's already outfitted to wreck everything indiscriminately.

The EE games are just a better base to build from than the originals, but then I like the new NPCs.

I doubt it - not all mods have been adapted into Enhanced Editions yet, and some never will. I think North Tales of the Sword Coast is not and won't be BG1EE compatible. Neither are mods like Tactics. I also had more problems with EE multiplayer (particularly with desynch, but also just joining into games) than with the original game's, and that's something.

BGEE's problem is that it's just BG2 thrown into BG1 with little thought or consideration (J.E. Sawyer's getting a heart attack seeing all this lack of balance) and overblown NPCs and items made by incompetent writers and game designers.

[kivzirrum]

The Stupefier. It's also mostly the fact that magical weapons are now much more abundant and early, which neuters the whole "broken metal" aspect of the BG1 storyline when you can bypass it so quickly and readily on your whole party. The Stupefier adds it up a notch simply by its crazy status effect. Items like Chelsey's Crusher are also pretty good.

Are all the old items still available and in the same places? I suppose one could just ignore the new stuff as long as it wasn't replacing the old, more mundane items. One of the things I always liked about BG1 is that it was a lower level, tougher experience than the sequel. Fewer magic items, characters are weaker... I'd hate to be forced to give up that experience in the EE.

All the new NPCs start with a magical weapon of their own, as if they're not standing out enough on their own, like sore thumbs. I'm going to make a character who is going to be... ooh, a relative of this big bad Bhaalspawn from ToB! And he will be crazy strong... the strongest of all characters! And he will have his own magical sword! And his own, special class! And a previously non-PC race! And he will romance anyone! Let's cram all of that into this design! He's even evil for more "diversity", but his stats also mean he is a no-brainer choice for an evil party, vastly overshadowing interesting characters like (now nerfed!) Shar-Teel. You get him in FAI and he's already outfitted to wreck everything indiscriminately.

(Emphasis mine)

I can't be the only guy disappointed that our Bhaalspawn can finally be gay, and our only option is an evil half orc. Right?

[Winthur]

Are all the old items still available and in the same places? I suppose one could just ignore the new stuff as long as it wasn't replacing the old, more mundane items. One of the things I always liked about BG1 is that it was a lower level, tougher experience than the sequel. Fewer magic items, characters are weaker... I'd hate to be forced to give up that experience in the EE.

Yes, but imagine that you're sold BGEE as a newbie to the franchise and told that the Enhanced Edition is truly enhanced. Imagine that you roll a Kensai as your level 1 character. Or find those items and think they're par for the course. You can purposefully ignore that stuff, but that doesn't make its inclusion any worse.

I can't be the only guy disappointed that our Bhaalspawn can finally be gay, and our only option is an evil half orc. Right?

You can always screw Solaufein. And write Solaufein yaoi those were the days

[kivzirrum]

Yes, but imagine that you're sold BGEE as a newbie to the franchise and told that the Enhanced Edition is truly enhanced. Imagine that you roll a Kensai as your level 1 character. Or find those items and think they're par for the course. You can purposefully ignore that stuff, but that doesn't make its inclusion any worse.

Oh, absolutely. But I'm thinking more for my personal experience, in deciding whether or not to eventually pick up the EE. As long as I can ignore the things I don't like, maybe the things I do like will make it worth it to be able to run BG well again.

You can always screw Solaufein. And write Solaufein yaoi those were the days

Now there's an idea! Time to put my writing skills to good use I kid... sort of... maybe...

[Calemyr]

A non-magical staff does not break, so Neerah's not a factor. Rasaad doesn't come with any weapons, and his gear is exclusive to him. Dorn comes with a +1 greatsword (with a +1 wakisashi) at the entrance to nashkel mines. If you're going to try tackling the mines without a +1 weapon on your guys already, I'm very surprised.

The Stupefier is pretty impressive, but it's stowed away in an inn in Bereghost, not given to you or put on sale. If you know where to look, great, but how does that separate it from the diamond, the ring of wizardry, and the ring of protection you can pick up on your way to the Friendly Arms Inn by knowing where to look.

The Belt of Antipode is the only one that gets given to you (assuming you go look at your dead foster father), +100 Cold Resist, -100 Fire Resist. Pity more things use fire than cold, but it has its uses and works if you want to play a White Dragon Disciple, I guess.

As for the new guys, that's nonsense. He joins at a point where you should have magic weapons. Or does Xan cheat with his moonblade? He has ties to future events, and Gromnir works because "Good Fun" has very little setup. He's there, he spouts Cassandra truths, you kill 'em, you slap yourself for being stupid, that's it. They added something to one of the two Bhaalspawn that really needed something more (Illisera the Tutorial Sacrifice being the other). Big deal. His strength is excellent, but he's also got crap CON and only decent DEX. Basically an evil answer to Minsc with a little more strength and a lot less endurance. EE characters are best described as having BG2-grade stat spreads in both games, rather than getting sudden bumps between games.

If you want to write up a "wannabe" description like you did for Dorn, you may want to try one for Minsc, or Edwin, or Coran or Kivan or Xan or Tiax or Branwen or Viconia... This game is full of "special snowflakes" if you're going to define the term that way. "Okay... I'm going to be this cleric with, only she's going to be a Viking! Yeah, I know the setting doesn't have Vikings, she's from another country, visiting. She'll talk a lot about a god that's never mentioned outside of her, a god of war in a time of war that nobody will mention! She...uh... has can use spiritual hammer as a bonus spell and she was... petrified by a wizard! One of the named wizards from the main plotline in fact. Hey, if Kivan gets his tragic backstory at the hands of a named character, I get one, too!"

Short version is, they brought their new guys on level with the popular characters. They're not OP, they're just on par. And if they're new characters, they're added into the story in reverse: New story is built around existing characters, new characters are built around the existing story. Forgive them for using the plothooks that exist.

[Winthur]

Dorn comes with a +1 greatsword (with a +1 wakisashi) at the entrance to nashkel mines.

Even by Nashkel Mines, I'm not likely to find an NPC with a suitable +1 weapon and 19 Strength. If I'm going straight to Nashkel, it's not that unlikely that I might miss Bassilus (especially if you don't know that you can kill his minions through proper conversation) and only have items like Silke's staff. Varscona isn't available yet either. My first playthrough had me in Nashkel Mines at level 3, still relying on arrows.

The Stupefier is pretty impressive, but it's stowed away in an inn in Bereghost, not given to you or put on sale. If you know where to look, great, but how does that separate it from the diamond, the ring of wizardry, and the ring of protection you can pick up on your way to the Friendly Arms Inn by knowing where to look.

By the virtue of the idea that being in a chest in an inn (a place you're highly likely to go to) is a very different location than an item you can only find through pixel hunting or pickpocketing a very specific, unassuming NPC (like Algernon's Cloak). Stupefier is way more powerful than +1 AC or a few gold pieces.

As for the new guys, that's nonsense. He joins at a point where you should have magic weapons. Or does Xan cheat with his moonblade?

A moonblade which is lore-friendly, being on an elf and having limited use due to said elf being rubbish at fighting and actively endangered by weapons, but offering him some flavor and utility? Why does Dorn have his sword? Why does every NPC from EE have to be so distinguished that they have their own magical stuff compared to everyone else - personalized and with quite relevant special effects (does Dorn's sword really need a THAC0 bonus when he already is a 19 Strength hulk?).

He has ties to future events, and Gromnir works because "Good Fun" has very little setup. He's there, he spouts Cassandra truths, you kill 'em, you slap yourself for being stupid, that's it. They added something to one of the two Bhaalspawn that really needed something more (Illisera the Tutorial Sacrifice being the other). Big deal.

He is a complete overload. Half-orc blackguard with possible ties to the Bhaalspawn blood who manages to overshadow most if not all of the NPCs compatible with his alignment and whom you can romance with both sexes is just a massive pile-up. I'd rather if they just toned him down a little in any of those departments and encouraged more character diversity, because I can't see a way a powergaming evil party wouldn't have Dorn in this game, what with the scarcity of evil frontliners (Kagain, Shar-Teel and Montaron in 1, Korgan and latecomer Sarevok in BG2) and, again, nerfed Shar-Teel.

His strength is excellent, but he's also got crap CON

14 isn't much, but he still uses a warrior hit dice and, again, he is much better or roughly equal on that front with people like Shar-Teel.

and only decent DEX.

The difference between 16 and 18 is 1 THAC0 and 2 AC. That's not a lot. Granted, Kagain will hog the Gauntlets of Dexterity in an evil party. Still, "only decent" is still "pretty good".

Basically an evil answer to Minsc with a little more strength and a lot less endurance.

Minsc gets 1 HP more per level...

EE characters are best described as having BG2-grade stat spreads in both games, rather than getting sudden bumps between games.

Of course, nobody could predict how BG2 would turn out and who would be the most popular characters that the general fanbase would want to return. Those are just retcons. Meanwhile, the EE NPCs just really stand out in any possible capacity. 19 Strength on a Fighter in early BG1 is really, really huge!

If you want to write up a "wannabe" description like you did for Dorn, you may want to try one for Minsc

Insane guy from an exotic land and a healthy tie to one of the characters. Mascot of the series and polarizing, but not overbearing on other characters or extremely distinguished stat-wise; between him, Khalid and Ajantis, he has his own niches.

or Edwin

Really squishy mage of mysterious origin with an annoying, snobbish personality and a mysterious amulet. He's evil, so doesn't gel well with most NPCs, has pittance for any physical stats and, thus, has quite a few trade-offs for being the best NPC mage in the game. Pass.

or Coran

A wyvern hunter with a really carefree attitude. Not intrusive. His extraordinary dexterity and bow skills come in Chapter 4, not Chapter 2.

or Kivan

Brooding NCR ranger with a rifle bow and a hatred for Caesar's Legion bandits. Quite generic, but competent and not entirely "outstanding" in any way. The writing isn't intrusive and he doesn't strike any Mary Sue vibes, he's an archetype.

Xan

A depressed elven mage with a heirloom from homeland which isn't his almighty, defining asset.

Tiax

An insane NPC comic relief who plots the end of the world. His specialty isn't very synergized but he is pretty cool and unique, and can be very strong. Is a latecomer.

or Branwen

She's generic as hell. She's your tough warrior chick archetype. Why can she cast Spectral Hammer at will? Because it's a nice flavor ability in a game with limited inter-NPC banter that distinguishes her somewhat. Her worshipping Tempus can be nothing more than a nod to the D&D mythology. Being petrified by a wizard you meet in the finale of BG1 is a nice touch and a motivation for Branwen to work with you; nothing compared to being an il-Khan, which is, at most, a meta-joke for fans of the series to speculate about his relation with Gromnir, which you don't get to learn until you've beaten 2 games, and even then you still get the sense that it's tacked on.

Viconia

Exiled drow chick. Token choice for evil cleric. Isn't anywhere close to superpowered in either game. Limited magic resistance is interesting (particularly given her non-tank nature, forcing you to improvise) and makes sense due to her race.

None of these NPCs seem like they are in the same ballpark as a one-of-a-kind blackguard with his own, magical sword (which easily can serve you up until at least Chapter 4) and an epic story traced all the way back to one of the series' primary antagonists.

This game is full of "special snowflakes" if you're going to define the term that way.

"Overpowered stuff that stands out in an extreme way from the tone of all the other writing and mechanics in the game", yes.

Short version is, they brought their new guys on level with the popular characters. They're not OP, they're just on par. And if they're new characters, they're added into the story in reverse: New story is built around existing characters, new characters are built around the existing story. Forgive them for using the plothooks that exist.

There's a ton of plothooks that could have been used instead - the upcoming war with Amn, for one - that are more relevant to the actual storyline of BG1. EE characters are nothing more than mod characters, with typical mod character sins like awkward placement in the storyline (or the map), overbearing on the plot, exposure that trounces every other character (including the preestablished ones), particularly in terms of player-directed banter. This is true of the whole Enhanced Edition design - haphazard implementation of BG2 mechanics with no consideration for balance. The EE crew are all trying their hardest to stand out, we have monks, wild mages, sorcerers, etc., and they are all extremes. Dorn is just as bad as Baeloth when it comes to cheesefest, while Rasaad is an useless piece of crap because of how misfitted his class is to BG1 reality. EE newcomers are like people from another planet. They seem beyond the whole plot that's going on.

That guy Dorn even resists Bodhi's usual "capture the romantic interest" attempt in BG2 if he's a relevant target. He's not even supposed to be eligible for his unique kit. Unlike most half-orcs, he's way smarter and more conniving. All of that further enhances his status as a pet of the creator. He's basically BG's Wesley Crusher. Would still rather play EE than even acknowledge real life Wheaton.

[LibraryOgre]

One of my minor annoyances about EE: That "Max Hit Die" is also tied, in the difficulty settings, to "Enemies do less damage."

Look, I just want to play the game without endless rerolling of HD. I don't want the enemies to do less damage.

[Winthur]

One of my minor annoyances about EE: That "Max Hit Die" is also tied, in the difficulty settings, to "Enemies do less damage."

Look, I just want to play the game without endless rerolling of HD. I don't want the enemies to do less damage.

Doesn't everyone and their mom just switch difficulty to the easiest when they advance in levels and crank it back up to Core or Insane afterwards?

[T.G. Oskar]

Doesn't everyone and their mom just switch difficulty to the easiest when they advance in levels and crank it back up to Core or Insane afterwards?

I roll them until I get over the average HP. Don't mind it a bit, particularly since that's what I had to do in Dungeons & Dragons Tactics to level up characters. So not everyone, actually - just a huge amount of people.

Regarding Dorn - don't see why the bile towards him. He still plays second fiddle to CHARNAME, after all, who's THE special snowflake. Or Imoen, who was supposed to die permanently on both games, and mostly the reason why her banter is so limited. That kind of accusation (really, Crusher? Wheaton has officially disowned that character; it must be a lot of vitriol to even suggest it!) seems too excessive. Maybe because it bends the rules, but Minsc also does, and if you go to BGII, so does Aerie - someone who's definitely more of a special snowflake girl: she's from a race you simply CANNOT get, has a tragic backstory, has an illegal multiclass choice for her race, has ties with a previous NPC, is a romantic interest, and specifically has the peculiarity of going into labor in the middle of adventuring, and carrying her child as an inventory slot afterwards. Thus, I don't see the bile: maybe it requires limiting to BG I EE characters and not noticing how many of the characters break some of the rules (Kagain and 20 Con, Minsc being a Ranger despite its extremely low Wisdom), or maybe it's a bit of grognardise. I find him cool, but that's me - everyone's entitled to their tastes.

Say...Beamdog mentioned if they were gonna patch in the Siege of Dragonspear NPCs to BG I EE and BG II EE, right? I recall hearing that they were gonna patch in the new class, but not sure about the NPCs.

[LibraryOgre]

Doesn't everyone and their mom just switch difficulty to the easiest when they advance in levels and crank it back up to Core or Insane afterwards?

Doing so annoys me, and I often forget. IWD had a nice toggle "Max HP on level up".

[Winthur]

(really, Crusher? Wheaton has officially disowned that character; it must be a lot of vitriol to even suggest it!)

Mostly just needed a jab at Wheaton, he's just an awful man

Thus, I don't see the bile: maybe it requires limiting to BG I EE characters and not noticing how many of the characters break some of the rules (Kagain and 20 Con, Minsc being a Ranger despite its extremely low Wisdom)

The way NPCs are in BG with their illegalities mostly serve as single, distinctive features to give them more flavor, but the overall package is never as obnoxiously overpowered.

or maybe it's a bit of grognardise.

Have to admit - definitely so. I liked your point about Aerie, but mechanically, Aerie isn't nearly as bad. Some of the qualities you name are romance-related (and if you don't romance her, she's par for the course for a BG2 NPC, and if you do, well, obviously she's special as the love of your life). I like her because it's fun to build a strong Aerie with many different playstyles (melee DPS Aerie is viable, for one) and she isn't a complete no-brainer. Not every good party has a spot for Aerie. Every evil party would welcome Dorn - again, evil teams in both games have little in terms of party member diversity, and the inclusion of Dorn (and Baeloth) streamlines this choice - you wouldn't pass him up, and he is excellent at filling in the "3 frontliners, 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 robber" cookie-cutter team standard in both games. He is just not interesting to me, in spite of the developer's insistence on him being exactly what I need. The excessive writing is an insult to injury; the writers are really proud of their writing and shove it in my face all the time, even proposing me a romance with the guy.

He really could have had a more interesting niche. He could have been an attractive ranged weapon option for evil characters; a good counterpart to Kivan or Coran. Instead, he's a superpowered evil beatstick. You can't even do anything interesting with him from the get-go - where Kagain can use thrown axes well (at least after Dexterity gloves snag) and Montaron is a versatile character with all the beef and sling abilties of a halfling, ability to both tank and sneak attack, etc. - Dorn is just a big ol' beatstick built around his sword and receiving a ton of coupons towards expanding that role. He just so happens to get a ton of unbalanced support to firmly keep him in that role and overshadow everyone else. Reminder: Shar-Teel has been rendered crap in the early game and requires you to explore a dangerous, faraway location to have a chance in hell of finding her.

He is not appealing mechanically, and the way he's written doesn't help either. In that regard, he reminds me of Cernd, a BG2 character I dislike - but Cernd is at least the original developer's vision and fits the game's design goals. Dorn is a glorified fanfic from a lucky fanboy.

Look at NPC mods like Kelsey. Kelsey is not very intrusive banter-wise, doesn't come with overpowered gear, doesn't try to steal the spotlight from another NPC. He is just a respectable attempt at making a Sorcerer. I'd take Kelsey over Dorn any day.

[Sylthia]

Mostly just needed a jab at Wheaton, he's just an awful man

What did Wil Wheaton do? He seems to be nerd royalty in many circles.

[T.G. Oskar]

Mostly just needed a jab at Wheaton, he's just an awful man

What did Wil Wheaton do? He seems to be nerd royalty in many circles.

Beats me; I'm also curious. He does make fun of being obnoxious about his popularity (if Fawkes in The Guild and his interpretation of himself in The Big Bang Theory show), but overall he seems a fun guy. "Perception" is the key term here.

The way NPCs are in BG with their illegalities mostly serve as single, distinctive features to give them more flavor, but the overall package is never as obnoxiously overpowered.

I'd beg to differ, and that is more specific with Edwin. He's very straight to the point - he's a better caster than you, period. His amulet, which only HE can use, makes him cast more spells than CHARNAME itself, notwithstanding his freebie Bhaalspawn spells...which s/he loses in BGII. Edwin, instead, gets to cast 2 spells per level of EVERY level in BG II...in a game where Mages rule absolutely. His specialization only makes him unable to cast Divination spells, of which True Seeing is probably the worst of the losses. He's right at the point where he gets full Con bonus to HP (still legal, tho). Basically, he's a really optimized Mage, superior to many characters, including the PC - only Baeloth gets close, and even he doesn't get the full extent of spells Edwin can end up learning. Edwin is quite likely the most overpowered character in BG II that is also a party member, superior even to the PC, and that's saying a lot.

Compared to him, and to Viconia, Dorn is right there.

Have to admit - definitely so. I liked your point about Aerie, but mechanically, Aerie isn't nearly as bad. Some of the qualities you name are romance-related (and if you don't romance her, she's par for the course for a BG2 NPC, and if you do, well, obviously she's special as the love of your life). I like her because it's fun to build a strong Aerie with many different playstyles (melee DPS Aerie is viable, for one) and she isn't a complete no-brainer. Not every good party has a spot for Aerie. Every evil party would welcome Dorn - again, evil teams in both games have little in terms of party member diversity, and the inclusion of Dorn (and Baeloth) streamlines this choice - you wouldn't pass him up, and he is excellent at filling in the "3 frontliners, 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 robber" cookie-cutter team standard in both games. He is just not interesting to me, in spite of the developer's insistence on him being exactly what I need. The excessive writing is an insult to injury; the writers are really proud of their writing and shove it in my face all the time, even proposing me a romance with the guy.

I can agree about Aerie. I actually plan to get AND romance her. Considering that my PC is a Human Cavalier and that he, alongside Minsc, will cover a bit of Priest spellcasting but not all of it, I need a solid full caster, and Aerie fills that while also providing Mage spellcasting that will complement Imoen nicely. However, I don't agree on that Aerie doesn't fit on every good party - being both a Cleric and a Mage (and thus, a full spellcaster on both sides), she's the most likely choice to double )or triple) up on Priest or Mage spellcasting, which is NEVER bad. The problem is really on the lack of diversity of Team Evil, and Dorn covers that up nicely (alongside Hexxat in the Thievery side); it's not necessarily a problem with the character, it's a problem with the diversity. The last comment is insightful, though - your party-building mentality recognizes that he can be a key party member, but your lack of interest is what makes you lash so badly towards him. Do note that you *can* make a human Blackguard PC and end up replacing Dorn entirely (with better stats and most likely a better weapon, plus Bhaalspawn powers/Slayer form) - you just need to find out another replacement. IMO, Aerie fills more party slots than Dorn can, since Aerie can cover for the Cleric AND the Mage slot, whereas Dorn is strictly a frontliner.

He really could have had a more interesting niche. He could have been an attractive ranged weapon option for evil characters; a good counterpart to Kivan or Coran. Instead, he's a superpowered evil beatstick. You can't even do anything interesting with him from the get-go - where Kagain can use thrown axes well (at least after Dexterity gloves snag) and Montaron is a versatile character with all the beef and sling abilties of a halfling, ability to both tank and sneak attack, etc. - Dorn is just a big ol' beatstick built around his sword and receiving a ton of coupons towards expanding that role. He just so happens to get a ton of unbalanced support to firmly keep him in that role and overshadow everyone else. Reminder: Shar-Teel has been rendered crap in the early game and requires you to explore a dangerous, faraway location to have a chance in hell of finding her.

He is not appealing mechanically, and the way he's written doesn't help either. In that regard, he reminds me of Cernd, a BG2 character I dislike - but Cernd is at least the original developer's vision and fits the game's design goals. Dorn is a glorified fanfic from a lucky fanboy.

Might you consider that the nerf to Shar-Teel is what you're griping at? It's unfortunate that Team Evil doesn't have an appropriate archer, and that SoD won't make one (unless our Flaming Fist captain is secretly evil?), but...well, it's more a matter of interests rather than anything else. I find that Dorn fills a niche, at least in BG I, that no other Evil character can fill (high Charisma character; hence, a face), so the devs did thought of an interesting niche for him. It's just that the mechanical niche of a frontliner and the story don't click.

Look at NPC mods like Kelsey. Kelsey is not very intrusive banter-wise, doesn't come with overpowered gear, doesn't try to steal the spotlight from another NPC. He is just a respectable attempt at making a Sorcerer. I'd take Kelsey over Dorn any day.

I'd love to say "you're not forced to take Dorn" (I don't, but that's because I'm playing a Human Cavalier PC, meaning it HAS to be Good), but I don't play mods until a first playthrough is complete, so I can't recommend that. I find that the representation of Bards in the ENTIRE Baldur's Gate saga is depressing (Garrick ends up being the best of the bunch; Eldoth is worse than Garrick, and Haer'dalis with his inaccessible race AND his ties to an entirely different game still manages to fall flat because of his choice of kit); the inclusion of a Skald makes me happy, though. Maybe he ends up being another wish-fulfillment character?

Still, the best thing I can say is "you're not forced to like it". I can deal with Ajantis, but the fact that Keldorn can't cast spells is a MASSIVE reason why I wouldn't recruit him, not even that he has the best Paladin kit OR that he can wield Carsomyr...which reminds me - I'm kinda pissed that there's no longsword-based Holy Avenger, and that Carsomyr is a two-handed weapon, meaning it's entirely out of my Human Cavalier PC's reach as he's a classic sword & boarder. That doesn't mean I have to hate Keldorn irrationally, particularly if he's my only choice to play a Paladin in BG II if I'm not playing one in the first place.

[Inarius]

Still, the best thing I can say is "you're not forced to like it". I can deal with Ajantis, but the fact that Keldorn can't cast spells is a MASSIVE reason why I wouldn't recruit him, not even that he has the best Paladin kit OR that he can wield Carsomyr...which reminds me - I'm kinda pissed that there's no longsword-based Holy Avenger, and that Carsomyr is a two-handed weapon, meaning it's entirely out of my Human Cavalier PC's reach as he's a classic sword & boarder. That doesn't mean I have to hate Keldorn irrationally, particularly if he's my only choice to play a Paladin in BG II if I'm not playing one in the first place.

Honestly the lack of spellcasting never bothered me with Keldorn. I tend to use paladin spells only as a last resort, whereas the dispell is incredibly useful in SoA. As for the Holy Avenger, there is the Purifier which is a 1 handed bastard sword. Even if you start with longswords its not hard to pick up Bastard swords by the time you get to Watchers Keep as a cavalier since you can only put 2 pips in weapons and lack ranged weapon choices.

[Winthur]

Beats me; I'm also curious. He does make fun of being obnoxious about his popularity (if Fawkes in The Guild and his interpretation of himself in The Big Bang Theory show), but overall he seems a fun guy. "Perception" is the key term here.

He was cool when he was reaching out to people and making fun of himself for being Crusher. Now he's an obnoxious "king of the nerds" (with little to that name) with an unhealthy Felicia Day (whom I also find grating) fetish. Pay little attention, I'm a grump.

I
I'd beg to differ, and that is more specific with Edwin. He's very straight to the point - he's a better caster than you, period. His amulet, which only HE can use, makes him cast more spells than CHARNAME itself, notwithstanding his freebie Bhaalspawn spells...which s/he loses in BGII. Edwin, instead, gets to cast 2 spells per level of EVERY level in BG II...in a game where Mages rule absolutely. His specialization only makes him unable to cast Divination spells, of which True Seeing is probably the worst of the losses. He's right at the point where he gets full Con bonus to HP (still legal, tho). Basically, he's a really optimized Mage, superior to many characters, including the PC - only Baeloth gets close, and even he doesn't get the full extent of spells Edwin can end up learning. Edwin is quite likely the most overpowered character in BG II that is also a party member, superior even to the PC, and that's saying a lot.

In a straight-up duel with equal gear, I can envision beating him with the "lowly" Nalia. That's just trivia, of course - nobody makes such NPC duels. Regarding other things, Edwin still suffers from being a single-classed mage - and single-classed anything that isn't a Paladin or Bard isn't necessarily the most optimized. His advantage, is, IMHO, more pronounced in BG1 - where having a ton of sleep spells really does wonders for encounters like Gnoll's Keep, and his contenders are characters like Dynaheir (two barred schools, yuck) or Xan (whom I find good, to be honest - Evocation is not as essential, IMHO, but Magic Missile's reign supreme is pretty pronounced in BG1).

Multi-class mages will end up a strong contender to Edwin. I already find myself preferring Aerie to the snob; the cleric levels open up some ridiculous tactics or enhance some of them. In a game where it's mostly viable to rest after every encounter and with there being a Wish to remind you of spells and a ton of other usable items, Edwin's advantage isn't all that great and sometimes I'd rather have the Amulet of Power instead of Memento Thay on my main spellcaster. He's still good, but I wouldn't call him overpowered. My philosophy is that all the characters have their niche.

Compared to him, and to Viconia, Dorn is right there.

Not sure what do you mean by "to Viconia", because Viconia is a pretty vanilla character that does not stand out much from Anomen and Jaheira. Her exceptional wisdom and magic resistance is mixed with the usual single-classed Cleric woes. She is certainly not better in combat with that THAC0 of hers.

Do note that you *can* make a human Blackguard PC and end up replacing Dorn entirely (with better stats and most likely a better weapon, plus Bhaalspawn powers/Slayer form) - you just need to find out another replacement. IMO, Aerie fills more party slots than Dorn can, since Aerie can cover for the Cleric AND the Mage slot, whereas Dorn is strictly a frontliner.

Even if I go for a blackguard Bhaalspawn, for the entirety of SoA my go-to evil party would still contain Korgan, Edwin, Viconia, Dorn and probably either Imoen, Jan or Hexxat for thieving; my frontliners are diverse (Korgan is an axe user, Dorn hogs the zweihanders), so I don't have any conflict in that regard; only until ToB do I have to think who Sarevok should replace (and he might not replace anyone, depending on how much XP he is behind the party when you first meet him). With time, the advantages of the Bhaalspawn being allowed to 18 every stat wane in BG2, because you can easily buff your stats with spells and potions. So again, why wouldn't I pick Dorn for an evil party? He's pretty one-dimensional, but he's also exceptionally strong, and evil, so a natural fit. He's way easier to use and find than the neutral or even evil-friendly Good alternatives like Mazzy.

Might you consider that the nerf to Shar-Teel is what you're griping at? It's unfortunate that Team Evil doesn't have an appropriate archer, and that SoD won't make one (unless our Flaming Fist captain is secretly evil?), but...well, it's more a matter of interests rather than anything else. I find that Dorn fills a niche, at least in BG I, that no other Evil character can fill (high Charisma character; hence, a face)

Viconia has 14 Charisma. For most intents and purposes, there is little difference between Charisma 14 and 16 (ever noticed how you can't seem to get any cool rewards without an 18 Charisma character? Reputation will be more important for determining people's reactions). You can just as easily rival Dorn's "face" qualities by just having Edwin cast Friends.

Eldoth is worse than Garrick

The only reason you might think that is because Eldoth is a latecomer or because he brings Skie, but his poison arrow making ability (really wrecks spellcasters) is the one distinguishing feature that makes him way better. Anyway, the problem with Bards is that they're just horribly, terribly implemented from AD&D.

and Haer'dalis with his inaccessible race AND his ties to an entirely different game

I find I can stomach his characterization way more than I can do Dorn's. Him and his band being outsiders is an interesting opportunity to wander into a new realm. Dorn's questline feels way more arbitrary in comparison (while also taking up way more of your time than other NPCs) and overall not that interesting.

still manages to fall flat because of his choice of kit

Blade is awesome, though I assume that he just doesn't do a lot of actual barding is the problem.

I'm kinda pissed that there's no longsword-based Holy Avenger, and that Carsomyr is a two-handed weapon, meaning it's entirely out of my Human Cavalier PC's reach as he's a classic sword & boarder. That doesn't mean I have to hate Keldorn irrationally, particularly if he's my only choice to play a Paladin in BG II if I'm not playing one in the first place.

Get Purifier, the paladin-only Bastard Sword, and hand Carsomyr over to Keldorn. IMHO, the most fun you can have with an early game Cavalier is with Axes. If you're a shield character, do the Copper Coronet quest early and buy yourself the shiny axes from Bernard afterwards. They're really good.

[Morty]

Honestly the lack of spellcasting never bothered me with Keldorn. I tend to use paladin spells only as a last resort, whereas the dispell is incredibly useful in SoA. As for the Holy Avenger, there is the Purifier which is a 1 handed bastard sword. Even if you start with longswords its not hard to pick up Bastard swords by the time you get to Watchers Keep as a cavalier since you can only put 2 pips in weapons and lack ranged weapon choices.

There certainly isn't much a contest between a chopped-up list of cleric spells that will be somewhat helpful at best, and a powerful and quick Dispel Magic.

[kivzirrum]

Honestly the lack of spellcasting never bothered me with Keldorn. I tend to use paladin spells only as a last resort, whereas the dispell is incredibly useful in SoA. As for the Holy Avenger, there is the Purifier which is a 1 handed bastard sword. Even if you start with longswords its not hard to pick up Bastard swords by the time you get to Watchers Keep as a cavalier since you can only put 2 pips in weapons and lack ranged weapon choices.

Gonna have to second this. I just about never use paladin spells unless I'm really in a bind (and that doesn't happen much when you've beaten the game over a dozen times). Keldorn can use Holy Avenger and he has dispel magic. Keldorn is awesome.

Multi-class mages will end up a strong contender to Edwin. I already find myself preferring Aerie to the snob; the cleric levels open up some ridiculous tactics or enhance some of them.

Honestly, Aerie is my favorite spellcaster in the game. Maybe not technically the best, but her classes and abilities more than make up for her squishiness, which ceases to be a factor pretty quickly. The only real thing against her is her angsty personality early on, but she gets over that quickly enough.

[J-H]

The Purifier is OK, but the upgraded Foebane is much better in most circumstances thanks to its overheal. With Greater Whirlwind you can heal 20-50 hp per round just by hitting the enemy (I don't recall the exact dice value it uses).

[Winthur]

The Purifier is OK, but the upgraded Foebane is much better in most circumstances thanks to its overheal. With Greater Whirlwind you can heal 20-50 hp per round just by hitting the enemy (I don't recall the exact dice value it uses).

That's why, when you run the Cop Show (Paladin Bhaalspawn + Keldorn combo), you dualwield Purifier+Foebane and leave Keldorn with the Carsomyr.

Frankly, the choice between which weapon should get the Eye of Tyr isn't that straightforward, given that Purifier +4->+5 is a big deal when Carsomyr +5->+6 isn't that big. It's mostly due to how much better the +5 enchantment is for killing stuff like liches over the +4 enchantment, and Purifier gains more stuff.

[Calemyr]

I should point out that Viconia is particularly scary in EE, because they fixed drow magic resistance to only resist hostile magic. In the original game, half the healing spells you tried on her would fail, but in EE she gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. (Other than the rep hit. Between Dorn, Viconia, and Baeloth, the party can have a -6 reputation modifier in BG1EE.)

BTW, do you ever include the other "cops" in your "Cop Show"? Anomen can be really annoying, but a grandmastered Crom Feyr is a sight to behold. Mazzy with a belt of strength can make a grandmastered sling a weapon of unrivaled death (another fix they did in EE, I think, was let strength boost all slings, not just the sling of striking).

[Winthur]

I should point out that Viconia is particularly scary in EE, because they fixed drow magic resistance to only resist hostile magic. In the original game, half the healing spells you tried on her would fail, but in EE she gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. (Other than the rep hit. Between Dorn, Viconia, and Baeloth, the party can have a -6 reputation modifier in BG1EE.)

Never thought this was that much of a problem. Maybe if you were trying to prebuff her with spells, but if you want to heal her, just give her the pots. It doesn't make her more than a decent-at-most NPC with a cool gimmick in BG1 still.

BTW, do you ever include the other "cops" in your "Cop Show"? Anomen can be really annoying, but a grandmastered Crom Feyr is a sight to behold. Mazzy with a belt of strength can make a grandmastered sling a weapon of unrivaled death (another fix they did in EE, I think, was let strength boost all slings, not just the sling of striking).

I think Anomen's a top tier combateer, so yes; Cop Show is just a reference to a paladin duo, the rest of the party usually follows the lead and is filled with Good and Neutral peeps.

Crom Faeyr is meh on a semi-cleric due to DUHMs and all that. FoA on Anomen any day.
Mazzy is the go-to Gesen carrier and/or Kundane dualwielder (she's versatile).

[Calemyr]

Never thought this was that much of a problem. Maybe if you were trying to prebuff her with spells, but if you want to heal her, just give her the pots. It doesn't make her more than a decent-at-most NPC with a cool gimmick in BG1 still.

I think Anomen's a top tier combateer, so yes; Cop Show is just a reference to a paladin duo, the rest of the party usually follows the lead and is filled with Good and Neutral peeps.

Crom Faeyr is meh on a semi-cleric due to DUHMs and all that. FoA on Anomen any day.
Mazzy is the go-to Gesen carrier and/or Kundane dualwielder (she's versatile).

Yes. When I think Anomen, I think epic fail flail. (He's powerful, alright, but more insufferable than Dorn in my book.)

As for Viconia, it's not a major factor, but it's worth noting.

I apologize for not noting Kivan's issues myself. I don't use Kivan as a rule in EE - the vanilla characters are mind-numbingly dull in BG1. Dismiss them as cheap fan-fiction if you like, but the new crew add much more to the experience, with BG2-style interjections, banters, and mini-romances. I'll take that over a bland killbot with a unique voiceset set any day, but that's just me.

For the record, I don't care much for Dorn, myself. He's obnoxious, he's arrogant, he's demanding, he's no better than Minsc with none of the charm. He is, however, a BG2 style character, and that means that there's more to him than the introductory conversation and a few brief snippets of conversation regarding a personal quest. So I'll use him. And I'll even enjoy his evil rendition of the Count of Monte Cristo plot line a little bit. But Dorn is always the first newbie I'd drop if I wanted a 6th NPC in my party. (He's not even a fun kind of evil, just a big not-as-dumb-as-he-looks brute that kills for petty reasons.)

[J-H]

It seems like Gesen bow arrows travel very slow - I seem to recall not being able to have more than one in flight at a time. Am I remembering incorrectly?

Also, this:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3573240...e-Screen-Vol-2

[T.G. Oskar]

He was cool when he was reaching out to people and making fun of himself for being Crusher. Now he's an obnoxious "king of the nerds" (with little to that name) with an unhealthy Felicia Day (whom I also find grating) fetish. Pay little attention, I'm a grump.

I'd say "go figure", but you're entitled to it. Maybe his portrayal in tBBT is projecting on his personality? Note that Wil, Felicia and a few others (e.g.: Morgan Webb), due to their popularity, will seem like that to you; how they are in their personal lives, away from what they project, may be entirely different.

In a straight-up duel with equal gear, I can envision beating him with the "lowly" Nalia. That's just trivia, of course - nobody makes such NPC duels. Regarding other things, Edwin still suffers from being a single-classed mage - and single-classed anything that isn't a Paladin or Bard isn't necessarily the most optimized. His advantage, is, IMHO, more pronounced in BG1 - where having a ton of sleep spells really does wonders for encounters like Gnoll's Keep, and his contenders are characters like Dynaheir (two barred schools, yuck) or Xan (whom I find good, to be honest - Evocation is not as essential, IMHO, but Magic Missile's reign supreme is pretty pronounced in BG1).

Multi-class mages will end up a strong contender to Edwin. I already find myself preferring Aerie to the snob; the cleric levels open up some ridiculous tactics or enhance some of them. In a game where it's mostly viable to rest after every encounter and with there being a Wish to remind you of spells and a ton of other usable items, Edwin's advantage isn't all that great and sometimes I'd rather have the Amulet of Power instead of Memento Thay on my main spellcaster. He's still good, but I wouldn't call him overpowered. My philosophy is that all the characters have their niche.

First and foremost - in EE, Dynaheir (and all Evokers) only have one barred school, which is Enchantment. She (and her PC counterparts) gain access to Conjuration, meaning at least they can use the Armor spell, and eventually stuff like Monster Summoning. Sure, there's a HUGE loss of spells (Sleep, Confusion, Chaos, Greater Malison IIRC), but she's more suited to blasting people and removing poison anyways. Xan is...different, to be honest. Same thing could be said of Xzar, but then again, all single-classed mages in BG I are specialists anyways, so they're pretty different.

Still - that Edwin can prepare so many spells is still an advantage. The thing is that you've mentioned a pretty clear something: you rest after every battle, making anything that's usable a limited amount of times per day effectively an at-will resource, meaning anything that gives over that at-will resource is superfluous. Aerie differs because she brings an entirely different set of spells, rather than more of the same spell, therefore giving you options - however, Aerie is constrained in actions, rather than resources (cf. the Mystic Theurge problem in 3.5). As long as Aerie can pre-buff, she's fine, but when you're in the midst of battle, having more options can be troublesome. Doesn't remove that her flexibility is still great (she's a formidable switch-hitter and complements very well other characters).

As for Nalia (essentially an Imoen clone without the spell) beating Edwin - the key is how it eventually boils down. Edwin's 1/2 extra spells per level should be enough to compensate for, say, one lucky Dispel Magic, and two 9th level spells means 2 extra Wishes Nalia can't use. Besides - isn't he a Conjurer? Wouldn't the first thing he'd do is actually summon a creature before battle, just to serve as distraction for his overload of spells? Nalia may want to focus on pelting Edwin with arrows, but she can't ignore the distraction for long. All it takes for Edwin is one or two more spells, which he has. But, as you mentioned - NPC duels are impractical. Go for resource management - two Mages are better than one, three Mages are better than two, and if one Mage has more spells than the others but you STILL get the others, the better. Mostly a reason why, despite being so horribly weak and delayed, I still like having access to Paladin, Ranger and Bard spellcasting: those are extra resources that can help on a pinch, even if you rest after every single battle.

Not sure what do you mean by "to Viconia", because Viconia is a pretty vanilla character that does not stand out much from Anomen and Jaheira. Her exceptional wisdom and magic resistance is mixed with the usual single-classed Cleric woes. She is certainly not better in combat with that THAC0 of hers.

Umm...story-wise, she stands out as a sore thumb. Being yet another character of an inaccessible race (Drow), being actually closer to the racial interpretation of the Drow unlike her "cousin" Drizzt, yet still being different enough from a vanilla Drow, being strongly magic-resistant (and as mentioned by another poster, in EE she can ignore her magic resistance for beneficial spells)...that makes her stand out. That she doesn't stand out mechanically may be what you mean, but she's still another Cleric, and a fast-leveling one at that (given that Anomen, Jaheira and Aerie are multi-classed; Viconia will reach HLAs and her holy symbol long before any of the three can reach 9th level spells). She's a caster, not a frontliner - which is why you're looking at her from a different perspective (as you mentioned, every character has its niche). The reason why you probably don't look at her advantages is because Aerie covers your Priest casting well, because Anomen and Jaheira can bring some Priest spellcasting while contributing as frontliners as well, and...I dunno, maybe because of Jan?

Even if I go for a blackguard Bhaalspawn, for the entirety of SoA my go-to evil party would still contain Korgan, Edwin, Viconia, Dorn and probably either Imoen, Jan or Hexxat for thieving; my frontliners are diverse (Korgan is an axe user, Dorn hogs the zweihanders), so I don't have any conflict in that regard; only until ToB do I have to think who Sarevok should replace (and he might not replace anyone, depending on how much XP he is behind the party when you first meet him). With time, the advantages of the Bhaalspawn being allowed to 18 every stat wane in BG2, because you can easily buff your stats with spells and potions. So again, why wouldn't I pick Dorn for an evil party? He's pretty one-dimensional, but he's also exceptionally strong, and evil, so a natural fit. He's way easier to use and find than the neutral or even evil-friendly Good alternatives like Mazzy.

...and yet you use Viconia. And Edwin. And are willing to use Dorn, even if you're going for a Blackguard PC. Do note that, despite leaning towards NG in behavior, Jaheira is still True Neutral, and she can spend points in Scimitars (of which there should be a few in BG II) without conflicting with your party (not to mention she brings Druid spellcasting). I see a strong contender there.

Viconia has 14 Charisma. For most intents and purposes, there is little difference between Charisma 14 and 16 (ever noticed how you can't seem to get any cool rewards without an 18 Charisma character? Reputation will be more important for determining people's reactions). You can just as easily rival Dorn's "face" qualities by just having Edwin cast Friends.

That Dorn has a naturally high Charisma, enough to save a resource on...I dunno, another Magic Missile? (:P)...works. Not to mention having to cast it every time you want to speak to someone...then again, I might be forgetting its duration.

The only reason you might think that is because Eldoth is a latecomer or because he brings Skie, but his poison arrow making ability (really wrecks spellcasters) is the one distinguishing feature that makes him way better. Anyway, the problem with Bards is that they're just horribly, terribly implemented from AD&D.

Isn't Eldoth a worse archer than Garrick, anyways?

But yeah - again, a reason why I'm happy for Voghlin in the new SoD is because Skald IS really good as a Bard kit. Sure - upon reaching HLAs you can get Enhanced Bard Song which is basically everything the Skald provides, but you're looking for the benefits early on. Frontliners always appreciate every boon to attack and damage - used tactically, you can turn off the song, cast a spell, then start singing once again. Not to mention that Bards can just get utility spells, saving your caster's slots for the really good ones.

I find I can stomach his characterization way more than I can do Dorn's. Him and his band being outsiders is an interesting opportunity to wander into a new realm. Dorn's questline feels way more arbitrary in comparison (while also taking up way more of your time than other NPCs) and overall not that interesting.

Blade is awesome, though I assume that he just doesn't do a lot of actual barding is the problem.

Well, I was planning to get Haer'Dalis on my group just to fill up slots, anyways. It's just that I prefer Skalds for their bonuses, that's all. Still - Haer'Dalis is built for melee combat, whereas you'd prefer him to be fighting out of melee range, meaning you need to spend points on ranged weapons, and never specialize in them (making his specialization in Short Swords a wash, even if you dual-wield them). I mean - otherwise, he'd have to count as a frontliner, no?

Get Purifier, the paladin-only Bastard Sword, and hand Carsomyr over to Keldorn. IMHO, the most fun you can have with an early game Cavalier is with Axes. If you're a shield character, do the Copper Coronet quest early and buy yourself the shiny axes from Bernard afterwards. They're really good.

Hmm...I was planning to dip in Axes just for returning throwing axes just to keep the PC in line while the Mages went haywire with AoE blasting spells. Having to spend points in Bastard Sword kinda hurts when there's so little good Bastard Swords in BG I (other than the Bastard Sword +1, +3 vs. Shapechangers - great for the TotSC quests!) and specialization slots are so spread-out.

[kivzirrum]

Yes. When I think Anomen, I think epic fail flail. (He's powerful, alright, but more insufferable than Dorn in my book.)

Anomen, in my opinion, is a lot more tolerable once he has his trial. If he passes, he acts like more of the ideal knight and is somewhat less pompous. If he fails it's even better. There's some good entertainment value to his angst for a while, and then he chills out.

I apologize for not noting Kivan's issues myself. I don't use Kivan as a rule in EE - the vanilla characters are mind-numbingly dull in BG1. Dismiss them as cheap fan-fiction if you like, but the new crew add much more to the experience, with BG2-style interjections, banters, and mini-romances. I'll take that over a bland killbot with a unique voiceset set any day, but that's just me.

While of course I have no opinion on how anyone compares to the EE characters, I wouldn't call Kivan dull. Some of the BG1 characters are, definitely, but some of them are interesting even if they are less in depth than the characters in BG2. But people like Kivan still have enough going for them to recommend them. And BG1 is less about character development than the sequel, anyway. It's just a different focus.