LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double

[Delusion]

Okay, I asked this of some folks on facebook but haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. Does anyone have good LGBT themed Sci Fi, non-military, that they can recommend for my reading material? For reference, I like most Asimov, lots of Heinlein, John Varley, Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, Philip Jose Farmer... Gosh, dozens of others...

Not sure if I would descripe it as having LGBT themes but the Quantum Thief and its sequals by Hannu Rajaniemi have some Lesbian characters.

[Mono Vertigo]

Okay, that's a difficult question for me, both because finding the right phrasing isn't easy, and because it might not have nice implications.
I'm seriously starting to wonder if it might not be better - perhaps not for the movement, but for the individuals - to separate safe spaces and support threads into LGB and T (or, more precisely, pushing aside the silliness of playing with the acronym, into sexual minorities, and gender minorities).
Tons of people who are T (or not cis in general) are also LGB (or not straight in general), sure, but there are some ventings and formulations that, while probably necessary psychologically for the one who are saying them, don't come off as friendly, or even safe at all, for the other group.
Example: "die cis scum" or the general sentiment of "ugh cis people". Yes, I know they're not to be taken literally, I don't know any trans people who posted this who actually want cis people dead or gone just because they're cis. But when you are cis but in a sexual minority... it might not feel particularly safe for them, you know? Hanging out at a place where they hope to escape being criticized for what they are, yet it happens occasionally. Technically, it's not serious, and it's pointing at a privilege, but perhaps LGB+ people who're looking for support don't desire to be dismissed for a particularity they have no control over.


(Of course I'm cis and straight enough to consider myself an ally more than a member of the community itself so what do I know. All I know is that whenever I read it in the context of venting, I don't really enjoy it but I shut up, because it's not really my place at all to speak up.)



EDIT: alright, I want to clarify things preemptively.
I, as an ally, have no right to explain to the LGBT community how they should organize themselves. There is no doubt about that.
The real question I want to get at, roughly, is: does anybody relevant (as in, part of a sexual or gender minority) feel the same way I do about it? Did I get the wrong impression?

[Astrella]

No. There's plenty of axes of imbalance between different members of the queer community, non-bi people can enact biphobia, but a bi person venting about biphobia is not a reason to group them away, same with lesbophobia, same with cissexism, same with racism, ableism, and any other form of oppression.

And constantly bringing up Die Cis Scum just shows who really uses the word. No active trans person in this thread has used it at a cis person here, but it's constantly brought up against us still. A simple "ugh, cis people", is not attacking cis people, just like a tired service worker saying "I hate customers" doesn't mean that they literally hate every customer.

Edit; out of curiosity, can you point out instances in the thread were you feel that cis people have been abused by trans people over being cis?

[Serpentine]

Maybe elsewhere on the internet/the queer community venting of the "ugh cis people" type might be best kept to trans-specific safe spaces. Maybe, I don't know, I suppose it's up to individual communities to decide that. It's a moot point on this forum, specifically, since it's not a problem here and if it comes up I'm pretty sure it'd be against forum rules anyway.

[Marnath]

I thought communities like this were meant to cut down on the rate of exclusion of various groups that goes on, not give us exciting new ways to play "Us versus Them." Complaints about being discriminated against should not be treated as attacks. Remember that tone is hard to convey in text, and what you're reading is most certainly frustration at dealing with hard-headed bigots rather than a blanket statement against an entire group.

[Jormengand]

EDIT: alright, I want to clarify things preemptively.
I, as an ally, have no right to explain to the LGBT community how they should organize themselves. There is no doubt about that.
The real question I want to get at, roughly, is: does anybody relevant (as in, part of a sexual or gender minority) feel the same way I do about it? Did I get the wrong impression?

Yes. Far, far too many people confuse sexuality and gender issues, which are really nothing to do with each other, because they're lumped together in some kind of numbers game.

[Beelzebub1111]

Yes. Far, far too many people confuse sexuality and gender issues, which are really nothing to do with each other, because they're lumped together in some kind of numbers game.

Which I think explains the poblem with trans visibility at LGBT+ events, and with getting coverage with gender-related issues.

In my opinion, gender identity and sexual orientation are so different in issues and goals, that it confuses things for the layman when they see them lumped together. And if we want to change things, the "everyman" has to understand what's wrong.

It's important to have solidarity, but it's also important to have good communication with those outside the circle.

[GrayGriffin]

Well...your gender identity does kind of affect how you define your sexuality, doesn't it? I think there is still some intersectionality there.

[SiuiS]

You might need to write the novel yourself. I'd buy it.

Woohoo! That's two votes for a Golly scifi Romance novel!

Okay, that's a difficult question for me, both because finding the right phrasing isn't easy, and because it might not have nice implications.

This is in response to...? I feel like I missed a post you're responding to and have no context.

Or did you mean it's hard to articulate this question and it's not because of anything specific?

Edit; out of curiosity, can you point out instances in the thread were you feel that cis people have been abused by trans people over being cis?

On the one limb, this is good for understanding. On the other, she doesn't have to justify her feelings. A slippery road indeed.

I thought communities like this were meant to cut down on the rate of exclusion of various groups that goes on, not give us exciting new ways to play "Us versus Them."

It's also fair to say that for 'support' that takes the form of active advice on a topic, may benefit from being more focused. Really, different groups need different kinds of help. The average lesbian doesn't need what constitutes medicinal advice for example (not that we can give it here, but still).

There are benefits and hindrances either way. We should tally them.

Yes. Far, far too many people confuse sexuality and gender issues, which are really nothing to do with each other, because they're lumped together in some kind of numbers game.

It's for the same reason feminism seems to come up so often; at the abstract level, they're a similar if not identical fight.

[Beelzebub1111]

Well...your gender identity does kind of affect how you define your sexuality, doesn't it? I think there is still some intersectionality there.

From a psychological and philisophical perspective, yes. But from the standpoint of sociology, the groups goals and problems are very different from eachother.

[Mono Vertigo]

I... feel I expressed myself badly. Like, very, judging from some reactions.
(I'm getting worse at expressing myself over time, it seems.)
It's difficult for me to put the proper words on the subject and how I feel about it, yes.
Picked the worst possible example without meaning to. It was the only concrete example I had in mind, and it pops up semi-regularly, so I thought it relevant. I didn't mean to imply it only comes from trans* people or that it's only inflicted upon cis people. Sorry.
"Abuse" seems too big a word for me. More like... it doesn't seem wholly compatible with the support of people who happen to belong to the group being criticized, particularly when the main subject IS gender and sexuality? It's a bit like having a support group for victims of domestic abuse of all genders, and have women vent regularly about "ugh, men" while male victims are also present, perhaps?
(No, it's not a perfect simile. In fact it probably sucks as a simile. Bleh.)
I'd like to type a lot more than that to expand my thoughts and hope to dissipate misunderstandings, but as already demonstrated, I suck at this, so why bother?

[SiuiS]

No, it makes sense. I am still interested in the issues of the supposed DCS thing – I think there's a spotlight effect going on, and it's easier to home in on and hold the bad to memory, for example – but the general concept you want to angle for is that by supporting everyone we dilute the environment and no one gets support.

Certainly, emotionally, no one feels comfortable who needs it. Every non-trans person has either gone mum or directly left for lack of fit. The trans people are either mum or feel called out. The allies are either mum or feel directly attacked. Something's gone wrong. Figuring out what that is is a worthy goal.

I suspect what went wrong is human nature, though. Nothing for that really.

[Beelzebub1111]

Certainly, emotionally, no one feels comfortable who needs it. Every non-trans person has either gone mum or directly left for lack of fit. The trans people are either mum or feel called out. The allies are either mum or feel directly attacked. Something's gone wrong. Figuring out what that is is a worthy goal.

Quoted for Truth.

I think a big contributor is negativity. In general, nobody is talking about when things go right, and triumphs. Everyone is so eager to be the one that pointed out how something is wrong despite it being a huge stride forward.

Let's look at the Korra finale for example. It's a huge step for Homosexual acceptance, but people in the LGBT community were quick to point out how horribly offensive it is that it's "enforcing a stereotype that one partner in a couple is masculine and the other is feminine" or complaining that it was too ambiguous. Then you have poeple complaining that just because someone fits the stereotype that it can't be true. and you have this whole big back and forth and everybody is afraid to say what's on they think or they'll be ostracized!

It's this culture, of competing to be the next big crusader to stamp out injustice, and nobody even knows which end of the metaphorical sword to hold.

[SiuiS]

That level of competing over nothing is "member of western society" not "social justice" though. The problem isn't the group but the members.

[Anarion]

That level of competing over nothing is "member of western society" not "social justice" though. The problem isn't the group but the members.

Also it tends to be a easier to discourse about negative things. Pointing out failures or problems is easy, and tends to feel like one is saying something whereas positive agreement feels without substance. I think that might be based on how most western school systems train their students, but I'm just guessing.

As far as the main question, I think addressing the issue of what support looks like is good, but splitting the community isn't. I'm not L, G, B, or T, (I'm A) but explaining myself has had the most success with people who are LGBT, and the success of gay marriage along with greater consciousness not just of homosexuality but of fluid gender and self image has been a valuable comparison for my own challenges in explaining my sexuality.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that even though different people have different support needs, the success of any one group makes life easier for others, and it's worth keeping the full LGBTAI+ discussion together for that reason, I think.

[golentan]

I'd really rather not divvy up the thread. I feel GRSM has a tremendous amount of intersection between issues and it's really way better for the whole community to remain on close, cooperative terms.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: Mono Vertigo, Astrella, spoilered for length

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I'm seriously starting to wonder if it might not be better - perhaps not for the movement, but for the individuals - to separate safe spaces and support threads into LGB and T (or, more precisely, pushing aside the silliness of playing with the acronym, into sexual minorities, and gender minorities).

Spoiler: Mono Vertigo

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Well, there *are* separate safe spaces and online places for Trans* individuals unless I'm very much misremembering things. I believe they exist both online and to a lesser extent in meatspace, though most safe spaces in meatspace tend to get crowded as people try to cram as many safe spaces in one physical space as possible.

The ones focused on LGB are only trans-exclusive when they're doing something wrong though, IIRC, like... TERFs levels of wrong.

As for further subdividing things beyond the Q&A and Support threads... Would that mean 3 threads? 4? At that point we'd run into logistical concerns with having those threads competing for space on the sub-forum and also with reposting things that have relevance in more than one of those spaces. Yes? No? Maybe?

It's not my call to make, obviously, but I see enough reasons against doing so to make sure that's the best option before trying it.

Tons of people who are T (or not cis in general) are also LGB (or not straight in general), sure, but there are some ventings and formulations that, while probably necessary psychologically for the one who are saying them, don't come off as friendly, or even safe at all, for the other group.
Example: "die cis scum" or the general sentiment of "ugh cis people". Yes, I know they're not to be taken literally, I don't know any trans people who posted this who actually want cis people dead or gone just because they're cis. But when you are cis but in a sexual minority... it might not feel particularly safe for them, you know? Hanging out at a place where they hope to escape being criticized for what they are, yet it happens occasionally. Technically, it's not serious, and it's pointing at a privilege, but perhaps LGB+ people who're looking for support don't desire to be dismissed for a particularity they have no control over.

I really wish we could stop bringing up the Dark Chaos Shuffle. That or we could bring it up one last time and actually address it, y'know, unpack all of our feelings and such, and then be done with it so that at least the regulars stop feeling the need to bring it up every few months.

Especially since it mostly gets brought up to either stop conversation or as a way of derailing the conversation to be about the Dark Chaos Shuffle. And has a chilling effect on people's willingness to engage in conversation. :/

It's almost as bad as asking about the difference between pansexuality and bisexuality.

(Of course I'm cis and straight enough to consider myself an ally more than a member of the community itself so what do I know. All I know is that whenever I read it in the context of venting, I don't really enjoy it but I shut up, because it's not really my place at all to speak up.)

It's unpleasant sometimes, but there's no real way to do anything about it without either starting a big brouhaha or being incredibly tone-policing or something equally unwanted.

Or, y'know, basically being something in the OP about trying to keep an open, non-hostile atomsphere that would likely be unread and ignored by anyone who'd want to make a post like that anyway. But maybe I'm just not seeing the right wording?

And constantly bringing up Die Cis Scum just shows who really uses the word. No active trans person in this thread has used it at a cis person here, but it's constantly brought up against us still. A simple "ugh, cis people", is not attacking cis people, just like a tired service worker saying "I hate customers" doesn't mean that they literally hate every customer.

Partially because saying it to another user in that context would run up against the board rules, and has in one or two cases, IIRC.

I'd argue that there is a certain element of "Ok, do you want sympathy, support, or do you want us to ignore you because we're not trans* too?" when someone goes really hard on in that vein, though. And there is a certain point where if one is posting and doesn't want attention, then one should probably take it to a private blog where one can screen exactly who one wants to see something and be able to comment on it.

[Jormengand]

I really wish we could stop bringing up the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

What? It's a viable way of swapping out feats you don't need for better ones!

[Trekkin]

This isn't urgent at all, so feel free to let it be while people are still debating how to manage the thread, but if I could get some advice here I'd be grateful; I'm not sure where else to ask a question at the interface between genderfluidity and gaming.

Spoiler

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I'm setting up a PnP RPG campaign, and I asked the group's previous GM if there's anything I should be particularly wary of doing as a GM. Among the usual player likes and dislikes, he mentions that one of the genderfluid members of the group "hates gendering. Just, like, avoid that." He goes on the clarify that said player dislikes "all gender and sexual based things. Don't include it. Don't even mention it" including but not limited to gender-specific pronouns and gender-specific marketing.

Fair enough; I can do that. Then he continues: "[the player in question] can also get grouchy if it's not included so it's honestly a gamble" and advises me to "just skirt the issue."


So now I'm at a bit of a loss. Ordinarily I'd just ask the player in question, but if even mentioning it distresses them I'm not sure that's the best way forward. So with that in mind, my question is twofold:

1. What is gendering in this context and where ought I to go to learn more about it? I've never heard of it as regards gaming, at least not without people going out of their way to add it.

2. How do I ask the aforementioned player about how to avoid offending them with the things they don't like mentioned?

[SiuiS]

This isn't urgent at all, so feel free to let it be while people are still debating how to manage the thread, but if I could get some advice here I'd be grateful; I'm not sure where else to ask a question at the interface between genderfluidity and gaming.

Spoiler

Show

I'm setting up a PnP RPG campaign, and I asked the group's previous GM if there's anything I should be particularly wary of doing as a GM. Among the usual player likes and dislikes, he mentions that one of the genderfluid members of the group "hates gendering. Just, like, avoid that." He goes on the clarify that said player dislikes "all gender and sexual based things. Don't include it. Don't even mention it" including but not limited to gender-specific pronouns and gender-specific marketing.

Fair enough; I can do that. Then he continues: "[the player in question] can also get grouchy if it's not included so it's honestly a gamble" and advises me to "just skirt the issue."


So now I'm at a bit of a loss. Ordinarily I'd just ask the player in question, but if even mentioning it distresses them I'm not sure that's the best way forward. So with that in mind, my question is twofold:

1. What is gendering in this context and where ought I to go to learn more about it? I've never heard of it as regards gaming, at least not without people going out of their way to add it.

2. How do I ask the aforementioned player about how to avoid offending them with the things they don't like mentioned?

Yowza.

Bandaid situation. Address them openly. "I don't want to upset you but we need to work together on that. Would you be willing to talk to me about what things upset you in games? I've been told gendering is a problem for you. Help me not be that problem."

1 isn't possible to answer. It's too broadly stated, from a second hand source, who admits their knowledge isn't 100%. My assumption is that the issue is unmindful use as if it were 'normal'. If you include gendering, it should be specifically chosen and on the table for discussion and dissection in game and out. If you do involve gender it should be a reasoned choice you're willing to defend as adding to the game and atmosphere, and without judgement. Some guy does somethig skeevy? That should not be read as an endorsement for such skeevyness on your end, and this means sometimes playing these things as parody if at all.

But there's not enough surety to run it that way. Not enough surety of trust between the seat of player and DM. Caution and respect will be your best tools.

I'd really rather not divvy up the thread. I feel GRSM has a tremendous amount of intersection between issues and it's really way better for the whole community to remain on close, cooperative terms.

I feel like I'm playing devils advocate a bit, and I apologize for that, but I think there is merit to both sides. Although a lot of the effect of divvying up would be achieved by use of tagged spoilers – although the effect would be 'ignored by most folks' rather than 'targeted by those with interest'. I don't think we need to have more threads as a general thread exists; but I do think we could take better use of the [queer] tag into account.

Spoiler: coidzor, spoiled externally because tags are hard sometimes

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Well, there *are* separate safe spaces and online places for Trans* individuals unless I'm very much misremembering things. I believe they exist both online and to a lesser extent in meatspace, though most safe spaces in meatspace tend to get crowded as people try to cram as many safe spaces in one physical space as possible.

It should be noted that the playground selects for, usually, a higher quality of patron (myself excepted, naturally~). External spaces welcome antagonism against oppressor groups, invent oppressor groups, strangely catalogue and file to pad the roster of oppressor groups, and create very, very strange rhetorical engines. We've had persons who legitimately felt remorse they were attracted to someone because that attraction was heteronormative; someone being shamed for their attraction to target gender in a group designed to alleviate shame for attraction based on target gender, to me, showcases how having this space, where a certain level of outside influence, intersectionality, and the occasional rube (such as myself) or genuinely curious but uneducated conversationalist keeps things in perspective.

A lot of issue arise when we the queer folk forget what the no queer perspective looks like and why it seems rational.

I really wish we could stop bringing up the Dark Chaos Shuffle. That or we could bring it up one last time and actually address it, y'know, unpack all of our feelings and such, and then be done with it so that at least the regulars stop feeling the need to bring it up every few months.

Especially since it mostly gets brought up to either stop conversation or as a way of derailing the conversation to be about the Dark Chaos Shuffle. And has a chilling effect on people's willingness to engage in conversation. :/

It's almost as bad as asking about the difference between pansexuality and bisexuality.

I like this idea, and recall the once-bandied idea of using the Questions & Discussion thread thusly; to have a summarized 'article', for lack of a better term, wherein after discussion to achieve some form of consensus, we could just link people to the relevant parts whenever the question or statement comes up.

Would y'all be willing? I would like to have this addressed and finalized. We've seen it used ironically, legitimately, and obfuscatorially. A clear and crystallized viewpoint would be handy. Especially as such an article would be able to have bullet points at the end or beginning with the sort of cultural guidelines we've accrued. Stuff like 'don't bring up dark chaos shuffle to justify your own actions: [reasons summarized in article condensed here]' and the like. A high-procedure thread element that gives an academic distance from otherwise personal and emotional topics to avoid the personal and emotional issues, without looking like the give mind group think yes man behavior it appears to be when others are entirely left out of discussion and just told "we are like this because we discussed it once".

It's unpleasant sometimes, but there's no real way to do anything about it without either starting a big brouhaha or being incredibly tone-policing or something equally unwanted.

Or, y'know, basically being something in the OP about trying to keep an open, non-hostile atomsphere that would likely be unread and ignored by anyone who'd want to make a post like that anyway. But maybe I'm just not seeing the right wording?

I like the idea of responding to hostility simply by quoting the 'please no hostility' section of the OP instead of using out own words (which tend toward unhelpful snark). I fear this would just end with rules violations though. We cannot actually tell people what to and not to post. :(

I'd argue that there is a certain element of "Ok, do you want sympathy, support, or do you want us to ignore you because we're not trans* too?" when someone goes really hard on in that vein, though. And there is a certain point where if one is posting and doesn't want attention, then one should probably take it to a private blog where one can screen exactly who one wants to see something and be able to comment on it.

Aye. I think a codified set of tags (see: high procedure) would help. But then I'm an idealist in that regard. I believe in systems, when those systems are designed by people to help people in a holistic and sympathetic (empathetic maybe?) manner.

What? It's a viable way of swapping out feats you don't need for better ones!

If only it were that valuable.

[Coidzor]

This isn't urgent at all, so feel free to let it be while people are still debating how to manage the thread, but if I could get some advice here I'd be grateful; I'm not sure where else to ask a question at the interface between genderfluidity and gaming.

Quite the opposite. It's a refreshing change of pace. A breath of fresh air, even.

Spoiler: Under the Spoiler

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I'm setting up a PnP RPG campaign, and I asked the group's previous GM if there's anything I should be particularly wary of doing as a GM. Among the usual player likes and dislikes, he mentions that one of the genderfluid members of the group "hates gendering. Just, like, avoid that." He goes on the clarify that said player dislikes "all gender and sexual based things. Don't include it. Don't even mention it" including but not limited to gender-specific pronouns and gender-specific marketing.

Fair enough; I can do that. Then he continues: "[the player in question] can also get grouchy if it's not included so it's honestly a gamble" and advises me to "just skirt the issue."

You've played with this person without ever picking up on this at all, that no pronouns are ever used when they're around, that not even the NPCs or animal-equivalents have spouses, families, or children in game?

And if not, then why are you GMing for a group of strangers that have formed a group together but that you've never met or interacted with?

So now I'm at a bit of a loss. Ordinarily I'd just ask the player in question, but if even mentioning it distresses them I'm not sure that's the best way forward.

You pretty much have to ask this person if the other guy doesn't have the ability to answer your questions and you'll need to have your own understanding of how to interact with them anyway.

If they can't deal with being informed that you've been informed that they have a lot of gender triggers and you need to find out what they are so that you can actually GM for them, then, well, you can't GM for them anyway and any attempt at doing so is doomed to failure.

Now, of course, you need to be tactful in how you bring it up with them, and if you have any questions about how to best begin that conversation and phrasing you'll get some suggestions. Currently nothing specific comes to mind beyond acknowledging that you've been informed that they have some form of trigger that you need to understand as the GM.

Granted, given that it's *their* triggers, they should be the one informing you of them in the first place so this is all kind of irregular anyway, but you still gotta do what needs to be done even if they aren't or won't on their own for whatever reason.

You've got to be able to talk to your players as the GM, though, at the end of the day, and if you can't have that conversation with them, then the both of you are better off not playing with one another.

So with that in mind, my question is twofold:

1. What is gendering in this context and where ought I to go to learn more about it? I've never heard of it as regards gaming, at least not without people going out of their way to add it.

2. How do I ask the aforementioned player about how to avoid offending them with the things they don't like mentioned?

As far as I am aware, gendering only really means the one thing when it's unmodified like that. It's objects and creatures possessing gender and assigning genders to them.

Now if it was (stereotypical) gender roles or gender proscriptivism, like men must be hulking, unfeeling brutes, women must be shrinking violets or whatever, yeah, that's something you don't want to have in your games anyway, but that's kind of an obvious thing to avoid and wouldn't really come up under most advice as it's assumed that if you want to DM and aren't 12 you have a better grasp of how to tell a story than that.

As for your second question, I believe asking them about their triggers and their concerns about going into a new game is where to begin.

[GrayGriffin]

Granted, given that it's *their* triggers, they should be the one informing you of them in the first place so this is all kind of irregular anyway, but you still gotta do what needs to be done even if they aren't or won't on their own for whatever reason.

Or maybe they're scared of being mocked for their triggers, which does happen, and therefore find it safer to go through an intermediary first.

[Trekkin]

You've played with this person without ever picking up on this at all, that no pronouns are ever used when they're around, that not even the NPCs or animal-equivalents have spouses, families, or children in game?

I hadn't thought to notice that before, but in retrospect, there were gender-specific pronouns and titles and things used for some NPCs. Now I'm even more thoroughly confused. Then again, the player in question is usually the one least engaged with the game, and I'm wondering if that might be part of why. Not that I'd assume such, of course.

Speculation aside, you and SiuiS are right. I'll ask them when they get back from break.

Thanks for the help, everyone. I'm always wary of broaching subjects like this while in a state of total ignorance of what I'm asking; this feels a lot more doable now.

[Mono Vertigo]

Spoiler: One last thing

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The discussion I started isn't really going anywhere, is it? Not sure where I wanted to get at with it, anyway. Asking was a mistake.

As an ally, I'm not doing a good job. I'm not facing enough homo- or transphobia directly nowadays to respond to it. As time passes, I have less and less time and money to invest in the cause. The best I'm doing is reading and/or participating to discussions online, many of which are not actually constructive at all.
And I don't have the mental energy to do the support thing right anymore, most of all.

There used to be a time, before my boyfriend's HRT allowed him to pass unquestionably as a guy, when we would not exhibit affection in public. He was afraid we'd be assaulted (verbally or worse) by human garbage feeling personally offended by the sight of two "girls" holding hands or somesuch.
That fear's completely gone.
But things have changed. People have been assaulted (verbally, physically, and sexually) in this very country by human garbage this year, sometimes in their own home, because they were Jewish, or because it was assumed they were rich (because they were Jewish).
My last name is Jewish. It's on our mailbox. I might look Jewish too. I'm not sure, but I'd rather not spend too much time in front of a mirror trying to figure out how much my face looks like an outdated caricature. I'm not precisely Jewish myself, but let's not kid ourselves, these people don't need to study a person's religious or cultural practices to decide whether they're Jewish or not, only a last name.
Today, I feel like I'm the danger magnet.
And no later than yesterday evening, I was faced again by a moron using "Jew" as an insult, but I said nothing, because it was a friend's friend, and I didn't want to ruin the atmosphere and come off as bitchy, or worse.
Nobody said anything, either. Nobody ever does.
(It doesn't feel right for me to bug my boyfriend about it when he himself has waited so long for a time he wouldn't have to be on the defensive.)
Bunch of people think that Jews are a privileged group, too. None of my friends do - I think - but it's not my friends I'm worried about. Antisemitism in general in on the rise.
I wish I had allies. Even bad ones. The only people in my family I still talk to aren't concerned by the issues and don't get it, or worse, spout that crap themselves.
When you're envious of other people because they at least have allies to complain about, then you're in a bad place to be in order to be an ally yourself, IMHO.
I should have realized that earlier.
(Also I have other problems to deal with anyway, big ones.)
Taking a break from everything LGBT-related seems like a good idea to me, and to you too, I'm sure.
Happy freakin' Holidays.


PS: if this thread reaches page 50, anybody's welcome to post the next iteration.
PPS: yes, I saw a shrink and talked to her about that. Could only stay long enough to deal with more urgent issues. (I have tons of issues.) Won't have time anymore to dwell on this precise one. But taking the time to care about myself will help, I think.

[Anarion]

Spoiler: One last thing

Show

The discussion I started isn't really going anywhere, is it? Not sure where I wanted to get at with it, anyway. Asking was a mistake.

As an ally, I'm not doing a good job. I'm not facing enough homo- or transphobia directly nowadays to respond to it. As time passes, I have less and less time and money to invest in the cause. The best I'm doing is reading and/or participating to discussions online, many of which are not actually constructive at all.
And I don't have the mental energy to do the support thing right anymore, most of all.

There used to be a time, before my boyfriend's HRT allowed him to pass unquestionably as a guy, when we would not exhibit affection in public. He was afraid we'd be assaulted (verbally or worse) by human garbage feeling personally offended by the sight of two "girls" holding hands or somesuch.
That fear's completely gone.
But things have changed. People have been assaulted (verbally, physically, and sexually) in this very country by human garbage this year, sometimes in their own home, because they were Jewish, or because it was assumed they were rich (because they were Jewish).
My last name is Jewish. It's on our mailbox. I might look Jewish too. I'm not sure, but I'd rather not spend too much time in front of a mirror trying to figure out how much my face looks like an outdated caricature. I'm not precisely Jewish myself, but let's not kid ourselves, these people don't need to study a person's religious or cultural practices to decide whether they're Jewish or not, only a last name.
Today, I feel like I'm the danger magnet.
And no later than yesterday evening, I was faced again by a moron using "Jew" as an insult, but I said nothing, because it was a friend's friend, and I didn't want to ruin the atmosphere and come off as bitchy, or worse.
Nobody said anything, either. Nobody ever does.
(It doesn't feel right for me to bug my boyfriend about it when he himself has waited so long for a time he wouldn't have to be on the defensive.)
Bunch of people think that Jews are a privileged group, too. None of my friends do - I think - but it's not my friends I'm worried about. Antisemitism in general in on the rise.
I wish I had allies. Even bad ones. The only people in my family I still talk to aren't concerned by the issues and don't get it, or worse, spout that crap themselves.
When you're envious of other people because they at least have allies to complain about, then you're in a bad place to be in order to be an ally yourself, IMHO.
I should have realized that earlier.
(Also I have other problems to deal with anyway, big ones.)
Taking a break from everything LGBT-related seems like a good idea to me, and to you too, I'm sure.
Happy freakin' Holidays.


PS: if this thread reaches page 50, anybody's welcome to post the next iteration.
PPS: yes, I saw a shrink and talked to her about that. Could only stay long enough to deal with more urgent issues. (I have tons of issues.) Won't have time anymore to dwell on this precise one. But taking the time to care about myself will help, I think.

Sheesh, that sounds like a case of too many things all happening at once. Be well, and pop by when you want. The support thing can just mean saying hi sometimes too.

[Astrella]

@Mono Vertigo; All the recent anti-semitism stuff is really gross, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with it. It's very understandable to be frustrated at your lack of support about it in your environment.

[SowZ]

Spoiler: One last thing

Show

The discussion I started isn't really going anywhere, is it? Not sure where I wanted to get at with it, anyway. Asking was a mistake.

As an ally, I'm not doing a good job. I'm not facing enough homo- or transphobia directly nowadays to respond to it. As time passes, I have less and less time and money to invest in the cause. The best I'm doing is reading and/or participating to discussions online, many of which are not actually constructive at all.
And I don't have the mental energy to do the support thing right anymore, most of all.

There used to be a time, before my boyfriend's HRT allowed him to pass unquestionably as a guy, when we would not exhibit affection in public. He was afraid we'd be assaulted (verbally or worse) by human garbage feeling personally offended by the sight of two "girls" holding hands or somesuch.
That fear's completely gone.
But things have changed. People have been assaulted (verbally, physically, and sexually) in this very country by human garbage this year, sometimes in their own home, because they were Jewish, or because it was assumed they were rich (because they were Jewish).
My last name is Jewish. It's on our mailbox. I might look Jewish too. I'm not sure, but I'd rather not spend too much time in front of a mirror trying to figure out how much my face looks like an outdated caricature. I'm not precisely Jewish myself, but let's not kid ourselves, these people don't need to study a person's religious or cultural practices to decide whether they're Jewish or not, only a last name.
Today, I feel like I'm the danger magnet.
And no later than yesterday evening, I was faced again by a moron using "Jew" as an insult, but I said nothing, because it was a friend's friend, and I didn't want to ruin the atmosphere and come off as bitchy, or worse.
Nobody said anything, either. Nobody ever does.
(It doesn't feel right for me to bug my boyfriend about it when he himself has waited so long for a time he wouldn't have to be on the defensive.)
Bunch of people think that Jews are a privileged group, too. None of my friends do - I think - but it's not my friends I'm worried about. Antisemitism in general in on the rise.
I wish I had allies. Even bad ones. The only people in my family I still talk to aren't concerned by the issues and don't get it, or worse, spout that crap themselves.
When you're envious of other people because they at least have allies to complain about, then you're in a bad place to be in order to be an ally yourself, IMHO.
I should have realized that earlier.
(Also I have other problems to deal with anyway, big ones.)
Taking a break from everything LGBT-related seems like a good idea to me, and to you too, I'm sure.
Happy freakin' Holidays.


PS: if this thread reaches page 50, anybody's welcome to post the next iteration.
PPS: yes, I saw a shrink and talked to her about that. Could only stay long enough to deal with more urgent issues. (I have tons of issues.) Won't have time anymore to dwell on this precise one. But taking the time to care about myself will help, I think.

I'm really sorry about all that. I'm fortunate enough to be able to say I've never faced serious anti-semitism before. That really sucks.

[AmberVael]

Let's look at the Korra finale for example. It's a huge step for Homosexual acceptance, but people in the LGBT community were quick to point out how horribly offensive it is that it's "enforcing a stereotype that one partner in a couple is masculine and the other is feminine" or complaining that it was too ambiguous.

>.>

Is the feminine one the aggressive magical martial artist who throws fire, or the business focused tech savant with lightning powered punches?
...the one that wears fur and leather in the style of a hunter, or the one that pretty much wears suits all the time?
......the one that rides a bear, or the one that produces and drives her own race cars?

[Coidzor]

>.>

Is the feminine one the aggressive magical martial artist who throws fire, or the business focused tech savant with lightning powered punches?
...the one that wears fur and leather in the style of a hunter, or the one that pretty much wears suits all the time?
......the one that rides a bear, or the one that produces and drives her own race cars?

Yes. /MLP:FiM

[Anarion]

Yes. /MLP:FiM

Rats, you beat me to it!