LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double

[golentan]

Uncomfortable question for trans folks: If you clock someone obviously presenting female (female nametag/clothing/no male gender markers at all, but with a certain softness around the face like a couple young ladies I know who jumped straight from one puberty to another) but who has incoming facial hair (not yet noticeable if you're not looking for it, looked like a case of "forgot to shave that morning")...

Is there someway to enquire without being a total berk? Or warn them without coming off threatening? I left with a smile and a wave and a "thank you ma'am" rather than saying anything because if she's liable to panic if she realizes she's been clocked, or if she's not out to her coworkers, or if she's a cis-woman with Polycystic Ovary or something else that leads to and is self conscious about it, or if it would come off as gender policing... I don't want to be that guy. But it's kinda one where I wanna give a Rainbow Five if all is well, or a friendly heads up if it's a cause for concern.

[AmberVael]

My advice is to treat it as if it has nothing to do with being trans. Because as you yourself point out, it might not have anything to do with it. If you feel compelled to point it out don't offer any speculation on cause at all, just point it out on the assumption that for one reason or another they might want to be a little less hairy. And if that seems too rude just do what you did and don't bring it up.

[Dire Moose]

I think the observation I'd make is that it took me a long time to figure it out about myself and I've known people who took substantially longer than I did. And years later, I'm still trying to decide exactly what it means about me and the full details of it all. So, do I think a kid would have it all figured out? Hardly. But then, that's no reason to stifle or dismiss a child's expression. Its more a lesson in humility and learning not to make judgments that you really don't have the information to make- don't go assuming anything either way really, just take everything step by step and let it play out. Its okay to get things wrong. To experiment with something and have it not work out. Chances are, everyone is doing that right now in some area of their life. So let the kid experiment or try on a different identity if they want. Most of the more irreversible and drastic steps would happen later down the line anyway, so you're probably not taking any real risks.

If it's ok to ask, how did you figure yourself out? You seem like you took kind of a different path from the others I've seen here, and as I'm still trying to work out my own identity it might be helpful.

[AmberVael]

If it's ok to ask, how did you figure yourself out? You seem like you took kind of a different path from the others I've seen here, and as I'm still trying to work out my own identity it might be helpful.

First, just to be absolutely clear for you and anyone else reading this, I am a transwoman. GitP does have fancy trans symbols for gender, but I find them (and things like them) to be both counterproductive and a source of confusion about what being a transwoman even means- I feel the simple female symbol more accurately represents me, and so I use that.

It may be telling that while I advise taking it slow and letting things unfold naturally, I came to my initial realization in a single moment. I wasn't aware of any questioning or uncertainty beforehand, no gradual build up or charting of points that led me to identify as trans. All I was aware of was a growing dissatisfaction which culminated in one bad day and a serious breakdown. That breakdown was where I knew I was trans, but even that wasn't just about being trans. It was about my spirituality (which I'll skate by for board reasons), what I wanted to do in life, and also being trans. And while I had thought about the others, the trans part kinda came out of nowhere, at least from my perspective back then. Looking back, I can see tiny hints and pieces (my questioning certain pieces of expression, wanting to rebel a little against societal standards) but even those are nothing compared to the kinds of stuff others talk about, and neither do I consider them to truly indicative that I was trans rather than just wanting to embrace a few more traditionally feminine aspects of expression over the masculinity pressed onto me.

I think I can identify why exactly it happened this way. I lived in a culture and family environment where these things- being trans especially- were simply wrong, incorrect and unaccepted at best. And that culture was something I bought into at the time. So, I think a lot of my progress was more subconscious, an internal struggle that I felt but couldn't necessarily identify until the truth was undeniable to me, at which point things boiled over. But the consequence of this is that its hard for me to point out anything before that sudden moment of realization, because even if things happened it wasn't something I attached much meaning to, or even understood. The other consequence of this is many of the initial reasons and logic I built up at the time to explain why I identified as trans I now consider fallacious and born of ignorance, explanations that I grasped at wildly to try and cement and affirm this new identity I felt so very certain of. In fact, I think I only avoided the mistake that had already led me to a breakdown by luck and long thought and reasoning that led me to dismiss many of my earlier assumptions.

Long thought and reasoning is really half of the answer here too. The initial realization was one really traumatic moment for me, but it wasn't over for me then. I thought about it. I visited a local LGBT group to try and get a better grasp of our modern understanding on the subject, and for about a year I took part in a gender identity specific discussion group that furthered that for me. I visited and talked things over with a therapist for about a year or two. And I thought about it on my own even more after all that. It sounds really obvious to say "think about what you want" but I think its really not so easy- its about being able to prune away the assumptions and pressures of society, about being able to detach yourself from your own discomforts and misconceptions about your nature and notice what you're actually inclined to do or what you're doing that you don't even recognize. I find that there are many outdated definitions and ideas in society that hold us back, especially in the context of gender- it is really easy for them to cloud and confuse the subject. Take gender expression, for example. People still get gender expression confused and mixed in with gender identity when on another level it is more recognized than ever that traditional feminine and masculine desires/qualities don't necessarily equate to female and male. (Shouldn't it just be self-expression at this point?)

And the truth is, I'm still thinking about it all. I feel much more settled and certain in my identity and desires, but I'm still trying to refine my comprehension on the subject of my identity and gender identity in general. I think that's how it should be, because people are complex. Its not just about finding a magic word and settling on it and understanding yourself; we're unbelievably intricate, and none of us come with a manual. Its about a lot of trial and error and examination that shouldn't ever stop.

Anyway, I hope that something in all this is helpful, or at least illuminating? I could delve more into my specific ideas and thoughts on gender identity and such or answer particular questions if you have any.

[Dire Moose]

Thank you for sharing. What you went through is actually sounding a lot like what I'm going through now.

It may be telling that while I advise taking it slow and letting things unfold naturally, I came to my initial realization in a single moment. I wasn't aware of any questioning or uncertainty beforehand, no gradual build up or charting of points that led me to identify as trans. All I was aware of was a growing dissatisfaction which culminated in one bad day and a serious breakdown. That breakdown was where I knew I was trans, but even that wasn't just about being trans. It was about my spirituality (which I'll skate by for board reasons), what I wanted to do in life, and also being trans. And while I had thought about the others, the trans part kinda came out of nowhere, at least from my perspective back then.

That sounds exactly like where I am now, minus the final breaking point where everything was made clear. Right now, I really feel I should have come farther in life than I have and am kicking myself for wasting the time I had while feeling like I can't move forward with any of the plans I once made. I have no idea though whether there is a third factor involved, but then again, neither did you. Maybe I'm just waiting for a similar moment.

Looking back, I can see tiny hints and pieces (my questioning certain pieces of expression, wanting to rebel a little against societal standards) but even those are nothing compared to the kinds of stuff others talk about, and neither do I consider them to truly indicative that I was trans rather than just wanting to embrace a few more traditionally feminine aspects of expression over the masculinity pressed onto me.

I've talked before about how I'm starting to notice things in my past as well, though like you said, not all of them are significant. Still, I can definitely point to a few that are, beyond a doubt.

I think I can identify why exactly it happened this way. I lived in a culture and family environment where these things- being trans especially- were simply wrong, incorrect and unaccepted at best. And that culture was something I bought into at the time. So, I think a lot of my progress was more subconscious, an internal struggle that I felt but couldn't necessarily identify until the truth was undeniable to me, at which point things boiled over.

Also true. I believe it's still very suspect that the end of my previous gender-questioning phase coincided with the start of my involvement in that same kind of culture. And even then, a few things persisted afterward for a while. Now that I've left said culture behind, I'm starting to see those same patterns again.

Another thing that might be involved: I was really afraid of the possibility of not being straight at around that same time due to worries over what I'd have to do to "fix myself." Now that I know there's nothing wrong with it and no need to change, I've long since accepted my bisexuality. Is it possible I'm afraid of admitting something else because it would mean having to undergo a dramatic and difficult change?

But the consequence of this is that its hard for me to point out anything before that sudden moment of realization, because even if things happened it wasn't something I attached much meaning to, or even understood. The other consequence of this is many of the initial reasons and logic I built up at the time to explain why I identified as trans I now consider fallacious and born of ignorance, explanations that I grasped at wildly to try and cement and affirm this new identity I felt so very certain of. In fact, I think I only avoided the mistake that had already led me to a breakdown by luck and long thought and reasoning that led me to dismiss many of my earlier assumptions.

I'm still trying to figure out what is and isn't important as well. Some are worth following up on, some aren't, and I'm not sure about the rest.

Long thought and reasoning is really half of the answer here too. The initial realization was one really traumatic moment for me, but it wasn't over for me then. I thought about it. I visited a local LGBT group to try and get a better grasp of our modern understanding on the subject, and for about a year I took part in a gender identity specific discussion group that furthered that for me. I visited and talked things over with a therapist for about a year or two. And I thought about it on my own even more after all that. It sounds really obvious to say "think about what you want" but I think its really not so easy- its about being able to prune away the assumptions and pressures of society, about being able to detach yourself from your own discomforts and misconceptions about your nature and notice what you're actually inclined to do or what you're doing that you don't even recognize. I find that there are many outdated definitions and ideas in society that hold us back, especially in the context of gender- it is really easy for them to cloud and confuse the subject. Take gender expression, for example. People still get gender expression confused and mixed in with gender identity when on another level it is more recognized than ever that traditional feminine and masculine desires/qualities don't necessarily equate to female and male. (Shouldn't it just be self-expression at this point?)

And this is also a sticking point for me. To what extent can I explain myself as a non-traditional man before I start considering myself something else? The lines here are very blurry.

And the truth is, I'm still thinking about it all. I feel much more settled and certain in my identity and desires, but I'm still trying to refine my comprehension on the subject of my identity and gender identity in general. I think that's how it should be, because people are complex. Its not just about finding a magic word and settling on it and understanding yourself; we're unbelievably intricate, and none of us come with a manual. Its about a lot of trial and error and examination that shouldn't ever stop.

I'm already trying to address this now that I can't ignore it anymore. It may take a while, but I am going to try to make myself more androgynous within the next few months and start presenting as female occasionally after I can pass effectively. Hopefully, this will help me to understand where I really fit in (I'm guessing some kind of non-binary identity in the middle, but who knows?), and at worst it will probably still be enlightening even if it leads nowhere.

Anyway, I hope that something in all this is helpful, or at least illuminating? I could delve more into my specific ideas and thoughts on gender identity and such or answer particular questions if you have any.

Yes, it is certainly helpful. I can definitely see a lot of the same patterns in myself, though I've yet to have the kind of "moment of truth" that you did and as such I'm still left feeling very unsure of myself. I'm sure this is a sensitive topic to discuss, but if possible I would like to know more details about how that moment happened, if necessary via PM. I completely understand if not though.

[AmberVael]

And this is also a sticking point for me. To what extent can I explain myself as a non-traditional man before I start considering myself something else? The lines here are very blurry.

I'd like to focus on this one little piece, because it really sums up my thoughts on this entire business.

Damn the lines.

All these little labels and lines and boxes that we make are our attempt to understand the world, to recognize its patterns and tendencies and give them names. And part of that is recognizing averages about humanity and individuals. But the problem is, individuals are not averages, not tendencies. While getting a result of 7 from 2d6 may be the average, if you roll a 12 with 2d6, no matter how you shout about averages and tendencies that 12 is still going to be a 12 and just as legitimate a roll. Lines give us a false impression, denying the outliers and the exceptions when in reality the vast majority of us are outliers and exceptions in some way.

The end result is that only what you are defines you. Don't limit yourself with thoughts of "well this is too far to still think of myself as a man" or "this seems like it means I'm trans." If you want to be the prettiest most feminine man on the block or juggle pronouns and gender like rainbow scarves, then just embrace that whether it seems to fit into a category or not.

[golentan]

Be true be legendary you!

[Coidzor]

And this is also a sticking point for me. To what extent can I explain myself as a non-traditional man before I start considering myself something else? The lines here are very blurry.

It's an ongoing process, as long as you don't run away from it and own it, you should be good. You have time. Not infinite time, but time.

[Dire Moose]

I'd like to focus on this one little piece, because it really sums up my thoughts on this entire business.

Damn the lines.

All these little labels and lines and boxes that we make are our attempt to understand the world, to recognize its patterns and tendencies and give them names. And part of that is recognizing averages about humanity and individuals. But the problem is, individuals are not averages, not tendencies. While getting a result of 7 from 2d6 may be the average, if you roll a 12 with 2d6, no matter how you shout about averages and tendencies that 12 is still going to be a 12 and just as legitimate a roll. Lines give us a false impression, denying the outliers and the exceptions when in reality the vast majority of us are outliers and exceptions in some way.

The end result is that only what you are defines you. Don't limit yourself with thoughts of "well this is too far to still think of myself as a man" or "this seems like it means I'm trans." If you want to be the prettiest most feminine man on the block or juggle pronouns and gender like rainbow scarves, then just embrace that whether it seems to fit into a category or not.

That makes a pretty good amount of sense. I guess it is kind of up to whatever I want. I've also been informed on numerous occasions that "it's not a choice," though.

As for me specifically, I don't want to be a feminine man; I want to be a woman (though I somehow also don't want to give up being a man) and keep the same interests that I already have. Which I guess might put me closer to trans, but less in the "I want to permanently switch to the opposite" and more in the "I want to try being both as it suits me" sense. I don't know if there's a word for that, though, and as I learn what I actually feel about being a woman by presenting as one I might change my mind again. But yeah, I'll just try being me and see what I like.

It'll still be a while before I can try all of that though.

[Coidzor]

As for me specifically, I don't want to be a feminine man; I want to be a woman (though I somehow also don't want to give up being a man) and keep the same interests that I already have. Which I guess might put me closer to trans, but less in the "I want to permanently switch to the opposite" and more in the "I want to try being both as it suits me" sense. I don't know if there's a word for that, though, and as I learn what I actually feel about being a woman by presenting as one I might change my mind again. But yeah, I'll just try being me and see what I like.

Gender and sex don't dictate your interests anyway. The only thing that would dictate a change in interests would be having to deal with annoying and backward gatekeeping in order to get treatment.

[Dire Moose]

Gender and sex don't dictate your interests anyway. The only thing that would dictate a change in interests would be having to deal with annoying and backward gatekeeping in order to get treatment.

I don't think I really want to go the full route and do hormones or surgery, though. Like I said, I want to be able to switch between both instead of being tied down to one or the other, if that makes any sense.

Then again, I'm still figuring things out and may decide otherwise in the future.

[cobaltstarfire]

Dire Moose you could be gender fluid, that fits pretty well with "I want to try being both as it suits me". Or maybe you're neither and don't fit in the binary at all.


I'm just passing through to express appreciation for the conversation on gender identity vs gender expression. It's something I've been feeling very confused about for months now, and now I think I understand a little better. (my confusion was basically "What makes me female anyway?")

Looks like the answer is "while I express/have interest in many ways male, I still feel that I am female, and that is what makes me female".

So thanks for sharing the conversation in here, I've been too afraid and unable to figure out how to ask after it myself, so it was kind of nice to peek in here and find that the question has been answered in a way that helps me make sense of some things.

I don't feel a super strong connection to my gender, but I know I identify with it on some level. (I hate having my gendered referred to for any reason because I don't personally think my gender is important, but I also hate being mis-gendered, if that makes any sense at all).

[goto124]

We humans like to have a sense of identity. It could mean gender identity, but it also includes stuff like country, race, religion, etc (all outside the scope of this thread).

We can't really explain why we feel parts of our identities to be so important, at least not beyond 'it makes me feel unique and like myself'.

[Coidzor]

I don't think I really want to go the full route and do hormones or surgery, though. Like I said, I want to be able to switch between both instead of being tied down to one or the other, if that makes any sense.

Then again, I'm still figuring things out and may decide otherwise in the future.

Well, that's one point of reference then, and all the more reason not to worry about whether your interests are masculine or feminine and to just care about whether it interests you or not.

[cobaltstarfire]

We humans like to have a sense of identity. It could mean gender identity, but it also includes stuff like country, race, religion, etc (all outside the scope of this thread).

We can't really explain why we feel parts of our identities to be so important, at least not beyond 'it makes me feel unique and like myself'.

I honestly don't think I'd feel any less myself if I suddenly physically turned into a boy one day, which is probably one of the other reasons I had previously been feeling confused about gender and how it relates to me in general.

[Ifni]

I honestly don't think I'd feel any less myself if I suddenly physically turned into a boy one day, which is probably one of the other reasons I had previously been feeling confused about gender and how it relates to me in general.

FWIW, I've seen a couple of (informal, unscientific, sample size only a few hundred people) polls online asking people whether they felt a sense of personal internal gender, and about 50% of nominally-cis women said no. (In the examples I saw, about 20% of nominally-cis men said no, with the rest saying yes.) So I don't think it's particularly uncommon to have a bit of trouble grokking gender identity. Some people feel it as a strong part of their identity, some people don't.

I've seen the suggestion to trans people a few times to ask cis friends/family "How do you know you're a woman/man?", to try to get them to think about their internalized notions of gender - but at least for me, that question would kind of miss the mark. It'd be like asking me "How do you know you were born in Honiara?" - well, my birth certificate says so, and my parents have always told me so...

If someone followed up that question with "But how do you know deep down inside that you were born in Honiara?" - well, er, I don't. And my reaction to hearing this (in the absence of other context) would be "Wait, what, do other people have an internal intuitive knowledge of what city they were born in?"

Likewise, I don't feel that I know deep down inside that I'm a woman, and I have trouble even imagining what that would feel like. (Obviously, in the context of gender, I know that some people do have an internal 'sense of gender', that can accord or conflict with their assigned gender at birth. But it still seems about as weird and incomprehensible to me as it would be to find out that some people have an in-built sense that they were born in London - it's something I have to accept without fully understanding.)

When I identify my gender as female or myself as a woman, all I really mean is that in our culture, I'm socially classified as a woman. When I say I'm cis, all I mean is that I always have been socially classified as a girl or woman. That's not a negligible part of my identity, because it's not a negligible part of my personal history - the fact of that classification has affected my life - and so I don't want to identify as agender, because it feels like denying the experiences that I've only had because of that social classification. But all the important parts of my personal experience of gender have been related to the social/cultural classification, and have had very little to do with internal identity. Thus when I say I'm a woman it's the former that I'm thinking about.

But if other people want to say they were always a girl, even while being socially classified as a boy - they're using a different definition of 'girl' to the one I usually mean, but I don't own that definition, and there's nothing wrong with theirs, and if it helps alleviate dysphoria then all power to them. (I would get a bit annoyed if someone insisted that all women have a strong internal sense of gender identity, and I'm therefore either lying or agender - or that the only thing that is ever important with regard to gender is one's internal sense of gender - but I haven't really seen that argument made seriously, as opposed to off-hand remarks.)

[AmberVael]

I honestly don't think I'd feel any less myself if I suddenly physically turned into a boy one day

As someone who is kinda in this situation, I don't feel any less myself either. But then, I would say the same if I were a brain in a jar. I'm me, regardless of the container you stick me in.

But, that doesn't mean I want to be a brain in a jar. As you might imagine, I'd really rather not. Now, having a more masculine appearance isn't so bad as that, but- well, imagine that someone else chose what you wore each day. And that you really didn't like their taste in clothing. Can you get around and do everything fine? Sure. Is it bad clothing? Not really. But its not what you want, and it doesn't express you. So, optimally you'd like to be able to choose your own clothing.

To me, thats the vast majority of what I mean when I call myself trans. I have a preference about my physical form, and I'd like to be able to express it rather than being stuck with someone else's wardrobe. The rest... its a load of social constructs I will use, break, or ignore as my whims dictate.

[Talion]

So I've been mulling something over for about a week and would appreciate confirmation/clarification.

While I don't identify as either (I'd consider myself somewhere under the Hetero-Ace umbrella, mostly because I don't think about anything related all that often) I'm a little hazy on the Bi vs Pan distinction. In a functional, definition sense are we basically looking at:

Bi: Attracted to either side of the gender binary but not to those who identify outside that distinction?

Pan: Attracted to either side of the gender binary as well as any grouping that exists outside said binary?

Which really leads into question two: I mean absolutely no offense, but how exactly does a person distinguish themselves between the two when, functionally speaking, there are only two different equipment slots? I understand that, functionally speaking, there are shades of grey in just about everything, but I can't quite grasp this one. The best I can come up with is a complete breakdown of the gender binary and instead placing emphasis various, alternative traits that are considered attractive by the person in question?

Thanks in advance and I hope I didn't insult anyone with my questions.

[Hawkfrost000]

Bi: Attracted to either side of the gender binary but not to those who identify outside that distinction?

Pan: Attracted to either side of the gender binary as well as any grouping that exists outside said binary?

As someone who moved from identifying as Straight, to Bi, to Pansexual, I'd say that covers it pretty well.

When I identified as Bi, it was because I felt attracted to people who identify as men or women. Later I realized that I identified more as Pan because I was attracted to people who identify as men, women, both, neither, and/or are transitioning between two of the above.

[cobaltstarfire]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand that gender expression and identity is important to other people. That's why I said just for me personally I have trouble "getting" gender and relating it to myself.

Likewise, I don't feel that I know deep down inside that I'm a woman, and I have trouble even imagining what that would feel like. (Obviously, in the context of gender, I know that some people do have an internal 'sense of gender', that can accord or conflict with their assigned gender at birth. But it still seems about as weird and incomprehensible to me as it would be to find out that some people having an in-built sense that they were born in London - it's something I have to accept without fully understanding.)

This is largely the same as how I feel. I also don't think it'd be right to call myself a-gendered, though on occasion I do feel like I am the past year or so.

And if not feeling too terribly connected to my own skin makes me a brain in a jar that's ok. Though I have to say the "someone else dresses you" strikes me as one of the best ways I've heard of describing trans.

Edit: I've seen people argue that Bi doesn't have to be restricted to just men and women, it could just be two of anything. But apparently there's some sort of schism within the community about it...

[Coidzor]

There's a reason why this topic of discussion almost got the support thread shut down several times. Suffice to say, it's a contentious issue.

[noparlpf]

So I've been mulling something over for about a week and would appreciate confirmation/clarification.

While I don't identify as either (I'd consider myself somewhere under the Hetero-Ace umbrella, mostly because I don't think about anything related all that often) I'm a little hazy on the Bi vs Pan distinction. In a functional, definition sense are we basically looking at:

Bi: Attracted to either side of the gender binary but not to those who identify outside that distinction?

Pan: Attracted to either side of the gender binary as well as any grouping that exists outside said binary?

Which really leads into question two: I mean absolutely no offense, but how exactly does a person distinguish themselves between the two when, functionally speaking, there are only two different equipment slots? I understand that, functionally speaking, there are shades of grey in just about everything, but I can't quite grasp this one. The best I can come up with is a complete breakdown of the gender binary and instead placing emphasis various, alternative traits that are considered attractive by the person in question?

Thanks in advance and I hope I didn't insult anyone with my questions.

This has come up several times and pretty much every time it leads to a thread getting locked for a few days. The short answer: Nobody can agree on the definitions.

[Talion]

Alright. Thank you all for your insight into the matter. It's been very helpful.

*Edit: I also didn't, and don't, mean to cause any trouble because of this.

[Astrella]

@Ifni; I wouldn't say I really know what it's like to feel like a woman, I've drifted a lot between more binary and non-binary interpretations of my identity myself, all I know is that a) having estrogen-high hormones levels makes me feel better b) I prefer my body this way more, it just felt uncomfortable and disjunct c) the social label of woman is one that best describes my experiences, both from what I receive from other people and what I internalize. Would I be a woman in a different genderless society? Likely no, but that's not how things are. I mostly want people to just not give me crap.

[Ifni]

I can definitely sympathize with that

[Threadnaught]

Heterosexual men should have sex with other het men.

What is the validity of this point of view?

If all het men just had sex with other het men, how would it impact the LGBTAI+ community?

[Coidzor]

Heterosexual men should have sex with other het men.

What is the validity of this point of view?

Do you have some context to go with the damn fool notion or are you just spitballing here?

If all het men just had sex with other het men, how would it impact the LGBTAI+ community?

Well, functionally, gay dudes' dating pools would expand enormously because there's no real way to check and see if the dude you're shtupping is straight or gay when you're a dude shtupping another dude.

And all dudes shtup other dudes in this kooky alternate reality you're positing.

It's only the dudes who are bi or pan or what have you that would be identifiable in such a case.

[The_Snark]

Heterosexual men should have sex with other het men.

What is the validity of this point of view?

... there isn't any, unless I'm missing something? It seems to be the inverse of the sentiment that gay folks should ignore their orientation and confine themselves to heteronormative sex. Neither of those is valid. Points of view which insist that people have sex they don't want are not valid.

It might have a use as a rhetorical device, as a way to illustrate how "you should just have sex with (opposite gender)" might feel to someone who is strongly homosexual. That's about all I can think of.

[golentan]

Heterosexual men should probably have sex with heterosexual men. Self Love is a very valuable tool for relieving stress.

Heterosexual men should probably not have sex with OTHER heterosexual men. People shouldn't have sex they're not enthusiastic about (or at least not repulsed by, nod to some of my ace friends). If they find themselves in a "If it's you it's okay" romance though, that's up to them? Homoromantic heterosexual men are most certainly a thing, just please, PLEASE guys, whether you choose to have sex or leave it as a loving platonic relationship, PLEASE don't use the term "Bromance." Worst neologism of the last decade or so.

[Heliomance]

So I've been mulling something over for about a week and would appreciate confirmation/clarification.

While I don't identify as either (I'd consider myself somewhere under the Hetero-Ace umbrella, mostly because I don't think about anything related all that often) I'm a little hazy on the Bi vs Pan distinction. In a functional, definition sense are we basically looking at:

Bi: Attracted to either side of the gender binary but not to those who identify outside that distinction?

Pan: Attracted to either side of the gender binary as well as any grouping that exists outside said binary?

Which really leads into question two: I mean absolutely no offense, but how exactly does a person distinguish themselves between the two when, functionally speaking, there are only two different equipment slots? I understand that, functionally speaking, there are shades of grey in just about everything, but I can't quite grasp this one. The best I can come up with is a complete breakdown of the gender binary and instead placing emphasis various, alternative traits that are considered attractive by the person in question?

Thanks in advance and I hope I didn't insult anyone with my questions.

The best definition I've come across is that bi people are attracted to men, and to women, and maybe to anything in-between/outside, but potentially in different ways, whereas pan people don't see gender as a relevant category when selecting potential mates. But yes, no-one can actually agree on a definition, and any you suggest have some people who identify as (bi|pan) disagreeing. There's no definitive answer. Mostly it comes down to each (bi|pan) person deciding which one they personally prefer.