Help! I've Starting to Like Stanley! *Spoiler*

[Silverlocke980]

...While my personal feelings aren't quite as tragic as the title makes it sound, it's a catchy opening, isn't it?

Now, it's not really that I like Stanley- in fact, he's completely unlikeable. He's a big jerk despite his small size and he's lacking in most of those things (like common sense or morals) that I tend to associate with people.

But...

But I am starting to like him, the actions he performs, rather than the person. Stanley, himself, is a jerk. But, he's a soldier who has risen to become a noble, he thinks deeper than I would ever have expected him to on the whole "Holy/Unholy" issue, and I'll save the rest for my dissertation below.

So, I'm going to say these things. Stanley may be a jerk, but where has he come from? The bottom up. Stanley has made his way to the pinnacle of his society, starting at the lowest rung. He's not got much reason to view things as "happy" or "bright"; or to be all that nice to anybody, even his head commander.
(It may also be why he's so "eh" on the subject of tactics- Stanley may understand fighting and combat for the individual soldier, which is his experience, but not army-level strategy.)

His words on "like they're not ruling on fear" in regards to Ansom's nobles and the like makes me think that he's seen these things firsthand himself- maybe even been a victim, somewhere, of the games of the powerful. Stanley isn't likeable, but he's a lot more understandable now... and the revelation of how he started makes his Holy/Unholy thing a lot more interesting now.

After all, starting from the bottom like he did, is it any wonder he believes in the Titans? He doesn't subscribe to common morality, that's obvious. But maybe his morality is a deeper belief in the Titans, in their Holy will (caps intended), for him and the Arkentools. Rising from the bottom to the top like he did, Stanley may well believe that it really is the will of the Titans that he succeed. How else could he explain his meteoric rise to ruler of eleven cities (though he may have lost ten of them)? He is a Tool, just like the Arkentools.

And it's made his character so much, much more interesting.

...Crap. I really am starting to get interested in this nutcase-in-miniature.

Thoughts? Discussions? Compliments on my greatness/avowals that I should "shove it"?

[Innis Cabal]

i think Stanely is going to be shown as the person in the hright, attacking those that slighted his country and tribe.

[Querzis]

Oh sure, hes a good little delusionnal villain. I like him, he make a great bastard. Most of those are just speculations though and as far as I'm concerned «Like they are not ruling by fear» just after saying that they all say he is evil quite clearly mean that he is rulling by fear. Of course it also means that he think Ansom is rulling by fear but that really doesnt seems to be the case until now.

I guess he must have a pretty high charisma though, when I read that comic about «Holy/Unholy» it was really just a bunch of nonsense and stupid excuses coming from a furious little crazy bastard for me (and it seems for Parson too) but it look like some people agree with him. Evil/good a propaganda? Holy/Unholy now thats a real freaking propaganda. Evil/good are just determined by the golden rule: never do something to someone if you woudnt want it to happen to you (I'm french so I guess the real english version is a bit different but whatever). Therefore, its really easy to qualify torture, murder, slavery, starting wars to get arkentools, quest for ultimate power and other things like that evil.

But what determine Holy/unholy? In Erfworld, it seems that its widely accepted that Arkentools are tools of titans but who know if thats even true. And if they are tools from the titans who the hell say that the titans have something to do with who tools get attuned with. And even if they do, who the hell said that it wasnt just «get attuned to the first one who touch you» for the Arkenhammer? Or the first one who crack a walnut with the Arkenhammer get attuned to it (I'm pretty sure only Stanley would do something like that). And what the hell prove that the titans really existed and that they are not just another religions created by mankind? I agree that Stanley really seems to believe in titans though not that it trully change anything.

Holy/unholy, now thats a real propaganda that killed billions of people in the real world and apparently in Erfworld too. Evil is easy to determine, except if you believe in moral relativism...where the hell did that stupid theory came from anyway? Why would intentions have something to do with good or evil, even if I think its the best thing to do, it doesnt change the fact that killing an old defenseless aristocrat is evil (guess who I'm talking about).

[nooblade]

I think Stanley is admirable. I guess I look at "relative ethical situations" different from some people around here.

It looks to me that Stanley has been put down for most of his life. Ansom is hounding him because he succeeded the last ruler of Godwin Knob. He's really short and sensitive about it. He makes it look like he's really fed up with people judging him about the whole goodness/evil thing. He obviously wasn't sheltered in some kind of noble family.

I think that he's just having a hard time dealing with all of his personal problems. Its easy to criticize him for it, but you have to admit that he is looking for some kind of fair moral code that suits him. He probably is evil, according to the narrow D&D scale, but only because he spends more time cracking walnuts than actually being helpful for his minions.

Plus, what has Stanley ever done really bad? A few pre-emptive attacks? Making Wanda do more work? Intimidating annoying people with dragons? I could see myself doing these things without a second thought about how "evil" it was. Just because he isn't the most "chivalrous paladin" doesn't mean he's bad. If there's nothing wrong with standing in rows, fighting like a robot, and killing with until the other side surrenders or is massacred, there's probably nothing wrong with an ambush to make it so at least your side doesn't lose too many people. Seriously. The Civil War was hell. Just becuase of some retarded notions about honorable fighting.

Ansom on the other hand is a less severe case of the snotty Miko paladin syndrome. Listening to him makes me want to smash his face in.

And as far as "ruling by fear" goes, I remember he said something more like "ruling with violence", which is a given in any military group. The US military uses violence to whip its new recruits into shape, just like any other, but that doesn't make anyone necessarily evil. What happens when you do something wrong? Court Martial. MPs. You can't just escape from prison, they'll shoot you. Sounds like violence to me. Stanley was right as far as that goes.

[SteveMB]

And as far as "ruling by fear" goes, I remember he said something more like "ruling with violence", which is a given in any military group. The US military uses violence to whip its new recruits into shape, just like any other, but that doesn't make anyone necessarily evil. What happens when you do something wrong? Court Martial. MPs. You can't just escape from prison, they'll shoot you. Sounds like violence to me. Stanley was right as far as that goes.

What he said was "Like they're not ruling by violence and fear. Psheh."

Taken in isolation, this statement could mean that Stanley understands that Ansom's regime is not as benign as appearances would suggest, or is making a general observation that any ruler will use "violence and fear" when necessary, particularly in a war situation. However, Stanley simply does not strike me as that sophisticated or objective. This interpretation from earlier in the thread seems more plausible to me:

His words on "like they're not ruling on fear" in regards to Ansom's nobles and the like makes me think that he's seen these things firsthand himself- maybe even been a victim, somewhere, of the games of the powerful. Stanley isn't likeable, but he's a lot more understandable now... and the revelation of how he started makes his Holy/Unholy thing a lot more interesting now.

[Silverlocke980]

Wow, the first time I've ever been quoted! Neat!

[Zephra]

he's...all right. but I hate wanda with a passion.

[Pepz]

never do something to someone if you woudnt want it to happen to you (I'm french so I guess the real english version is a bit different but whatever).

completely off topic :) but as fas as I know that was said by the French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre ;) so the french version would be the real version ;) with the english one just a weak copy ;)

on topic, I'm not sure what I think of his high Tooliness yet. He's annoying, seemingly completely useless for anything but screaming at people and being an egoist and through his utter uselessness he's lost 10 out of 11 cities. If Wanda hadn't disobeyed him they'd now have General Pretty Boy leading the final battle.

On the other hand, it appears he's gone from low ranking foot soldier to ruler, which I have to respect, and he _has_ been chosen by the Arkenhammer (for whatever reason the hammer thought it'd be a good idea o_0 )

Overall I'd like to see some more of his past, before making a decision.....
for now he'll be an annoying short brat :P

[agentx42]

...Crap. I really am starting to get interested in this nutcase-in-miniature.

Thoughts? Discussions? Compliments on my greatness/avowals that I should "shove it"?

Naahhhh. First of all, I don't know what "it" is, and whether or not shoving it might actually be an unpleasant experience. But shove away, if it pleases you.

I almost like the little nimrod myself... almost, that is. But ultimately no matter what his humble beginnings might have been, I still can't bring myself to liking this wacky little dude. But you're right, he is a much more interesting character now than he was from the get-go.

[happyturtle]

completely off topic :) but as fas as I know that was said by the French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre ;) so the french version would be the real version ;) with the english one just a weak copy ;)

Off topic, the golden rule was in the New Testament, so if that's the original, it would be Greek. But it's probably a lot older than that.

[agentx42]

Off topic, the golden rule was in the New Testament, so if that's the original, it would be Greek. But it's probably a lot older than that.

Do unto others... then scram before the cops arrive!

[rob]

Stanley's got a couple characteristics I don't mind, especially in bosses. "Knowing What He Wants" is really important for the dude in charge, and he doesn't seem to second-guess his staff.

Also, in his scene where he read Parson the riot act, I think Parson had it long overdue. Feelings of culture shock aside, Parson's now responsible for the lives - or whatever - of a whole lot of troops, and he wasn't quite getting it. Of all the a** chewings I've ever seen, that one was fairly short and to the point.

[Gez]

Stanley behaves like a spoiled kid, not like an adult. He is childish, selfish, egotist, but in a way not completely bad.

[Bilgore]

Stanley's got a couple characteristics I don't mind, especially in bosses. "Knowing What He Wants" is really important for the dude in charge, and he doesn't seem to second-guess his staff.

That, and he's not as incompetent as most people seem to believe. in many strategy games, "hero" units have charisma scores which provide a morale bonus to troops under their command. Of course strategy in these games is determined by the players, not some tiny chunk of metal (or blob of pixels), thus he has good reason for promoting good-lookig people to command positions.

And on the whole good/evil/holy/unholy issue, isn't it clear that so far Stanley is the only person do do anything creative with an Arkentool? Ansom has done nothing but smash uncroaked with his, where Stanley has been able to make pigeons (maybe they could even be used as messengers).

Even the assumption that Stanley killed the previous ruler is in doubt--just look at Vinnie's response to Ansom's accusation.
Ansom: He became an Overlord by regicide:
Vinnie: Kinda. But you're beef is, he's not royal, right?

It sounds as if Ansom has to twist the truth a bit to make Stanley sound evil, and Vinnie knows it. It will be interesting to eventually hear that story...

I'm beginning to think Stanley was a high-charisma hero (the "cute kid/prodigy" stereotype seen in so many movies) who just became bitter when he had to start dealing with politics after he started leading the entire army. Losing warlords and losing cites are not a very pleasant experience. He apparently thought the summoning of Parso was one more colossal screw-up, but maybe once Parson starts proving his ability we'll start seeing Stanley's true personality come out.

[Devils_Advocate]

Off topic, the golden rule was in the New Testament, so if that's the original, it would be Greek. But it's probably a lot older than that.

Yup. It's pretty darned old, and pretty darned widespread.

[the_tick_rules]

embarce your dark side.