Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[Kurald Galain]

So the question #1017 (the latest comic) raises is: how could the vampire Durkon get so many uses of the obscure spell that causes newly created vampires to awake without three refreshing days in a coffin.

As answered in that thread,

A typical staff has 50 charges, and a typical spell takes a standard action to cast. So even assuming the staff was half depleted, it could easily raise twelve vampires in slightly over one minute.

What takes more time is capturing and draining twelve people; although of course you get the first vamp to help you creating the second, then you have two vamps to help you creating the third, and so forth until you work your way up to a giant vamp.

Yeah, high-level magic is scary like that. So are vampires.

[Chronos]

In other words, a staff doesn't have any number of instances of any specific spell in it. It just has a bunch of charges, that can be used for any spell in the staff. Spells which are higher level than the other spells in the staff might take two or even three charges, but that doesn't mean much here, because we have no idea what level the rapid vampirization spell is. And since we already knew that spell was in the staff, this comic doesn't really tell us anything new.

[SavageWombat]

Can't call him "HPoH" any more, as he's abdicated.

X-HPoH?

[b_jonas]

In other words, a staff doesn't have any number of instances of any specific spell in it. It just has a bunch of charges, that can be used for any spell in the staff.

Wait, really? That sounds much more powerful than I thought. That means a staff is basically a spontaneous caster in a can, and can be used by wizards or clerics. Thank you for the info.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wait, really? That sounds much more powerful than I thought. That means a staff is basically a spontaneous caster in a can, and can be used by wizards or clerics. Thank you for the info.

And now you know why they're so hideously expensive.

[Quild]

I understood that the staff can't have more than 50 charges. Right?

Tarquin says that creating a mummy uses a few charges of the staff. For what I know, he could be right and the staff could use only one charge for 5 mummies and Malack does not want to say how cheap it really is so Tarquins asks to raise every Draketooth as a mummy.

But he could be right. Is he? Can we know?
Can we estimate how many charges would use the protection spell (used at the very least twice, after Laurin dispelled the spell and before Tinkertown) and the spell that quickens vampire's raise (used at the very least 13 times).

[unbeliever536]

I understood that the staff can't have more than 50 charges. Right?

Tarquin says that creating a mummy uses a few charges of the staff. For what I know, he could be right and the staff could use only one charge for 5 mummies and Malack does not want to say how cheap it really is so Tarquins asks to raise every Draketooth as a mummy.

But he could be right. Is he? Can we know?
Can we estimate how many charges would use the protection spell (used at the very least twice, after Laurin dispelled the spell and before Tinkertown) and the spell that quickens vampire's raise (used at the very least 13 times).

Probably not, at least not without knowing the level of the spell(s) in question.

A standard Staff of Necromancy can cast Waves of Fatigue, a 6th level spell, for 3 charges. Create Undead (which creates mummies)* is also a 6th level spell, so that's a good guess for the cost to cast it from the staff. Or if it isn't, but it's a reasonable place for Tarquin to start and then reach "a couple of charges". In any case, 6th level spells are 3 charges, 5th level spells are 2 charges, and all weaker spells are one charge a pop. I feel comfortable putting Protection from Daylight at the sub-4 level, so figure that's one charge. The no-coffin vampire spell is basically a highly specialized (but powerful) version of Create Undead, so it's probably between level 4 (Animate Dead) and level 6? Not sure. Ballpark it at level 5, or 2 charges per cast. For convenience, we'll assume that Malack has like 5 of these because he lives like Tarquin, at least in terms of adventuring gear, so he starts with a fully charged staff.

We then have:
-6 mummies * 3 charges each = 18 charges
-Raising the former High Priest, 2 charges
-Durkula casting Protection from Daylight, 1 charge
-Raising 12 vampires (eleven in that strip plus one in 1015), 24 charges

This gives 45 charges spent, meaning the staff is about gone - pretty much to be expected, given that Durkula doesn't expect to need it more than another couple of hours from now at the outside.

*Of course, Malack isn't high enough level to make mummies with Create Undead...

[Aeliren]

Probably not, at least not without knowing the level of the spell(s) in question.

A standard Staff of Necromancy can cast Waves of Fatigue, a 6th level spell, for 3 charges. Create Undead (which creates mummies)* is also a 6th level spell, so that's a good guess for the cost to cast it from the staff. Or if it isn't, but it's a reasonable place for Tarquin to start and then reach "a couple of charges". In any case, 6th level spells are 3 charges, 5th level spells are 2 charges, and all weaker spells are one charge a pop. I feel comfortable putting Protection from Daylight at the sub-4 level, so figure that's one charge. The no-coffin vampire spell is basically a highly specialized (but powerful) version of Create Undead, so it's probably between level 4 (Animate Dead) and level 6? Not sure. Ballpark it at level 5, or 2 charges per cast. For convenience, we'll assume that Malack has like 5 of these because he lives like Tarquin, at least in terms of adventuring gear, so he starts with a fully charged staff.

We then have:
-6 mummies * 3 charges each = 18 charges
-Raising the former High Priest, 2 charges
-Durkula casting Protection from Daylight, 1 charge
-Raising 12 vampires (eleven in that strip plus one in 1015), 24 charges

This gives 45 charges spent, meaning the staff is about gone - pretty much to be expected, given that Durkula doesn't expect to need it more than another couple of hours from now at the outside.

*Of course, Malack isn't high enough level to make mummies with Create Undead...

Don't forget, he presumably casted Protection from Daylight more than once, at least for Gontor and the giant ex-Creed vampire.

[zimmerwald1915]

Don't forget, he presumably casted Protection from Daylight more than once, at least for Gontor and the giant ex-Creed vampire.

Possibly out of his own spell slots, assuming he wasn't lying about researching protection from daylight, and that his research was successful.

[Quild]

Possibly out of his own spell slots, assuming he wasn't lying about researching protection from daylight, and that his research was successful.

That's actually what I'm trying to figure. Could he have cast that many spells without his researches to be successful?

If not, we have to add an use of the spell on himself for the current day, and indeed, two for the vampires who went outside.

That's a 48 charges spent.

I think we'll figure soon that he does has the spell :D

[Hamste]

I pointed this out in the other thread but isn't it possible the raise vampire quickly spell can target multiple corpses kind of like how animate dead can? We haven't seen it be used to raise multiple vampires but none of the situations we saw it cast warranted casting it on multiple corpses.

[unbeliever536]

I pointed this out in the other thread but isn't it possible the raise vampire quickly spell can target multiple corpses kind of like how animate dead can? We haven't seen it be used to raise multiple vampires but none of the situations we saw it cast warranted casting it on multiple corpses.

Animate dead can target one or more corpse, but Create Undead can only target a single one. The fact that the spell appears to be touch ranged based on how Malack uses it points in the later direction as well.

[Hamste]

Animate dead can target one or more corpse, but Create Undead can only target a single one. The fact that the spell appears to be touch ranged based on how Malack uses it points in the later direction as well.

Animate dead is touch ranged as well. Create undead may be closer in terms of what is happening but we can't really be certain the spell can only quickly raise one vampire at a time unless someone gives a hint about it or there is a scenario where it feasibly would have been better to animate more than one at a time.

[Pyrous]

Also, Create Undead is not touch. At least the SRD version.

EDIT: And both of the spells create a new undead from a corpse. Malack's Hasted Vampirization simply hastens an already happening vampirization. I see no reason it couldn't hasten more then one at a time. Or that the staff couldn't do it by simply spending more charges. There's yet no evidence that it could, though.

EDIT2: I could see a limit in the HD of the creatures being vampirized.

[unbeliever536]

Also, Create Undead is not touch. At least the SRD version.

EDIT: And both of the spells create a new undead from a corpse. Malack's Hasted Vampirization simply hastens an already happening vampirization. I see no reason it couldn't hasten more then one at a time. Or that the staff couldn't do it by simply spending more charges. There's yet no evidence that it could, though.

EDIT2: I could see a limit in the HD of the creatures being vampirized.

The question at hand is whether it would cost more charges (that is, if charges/vampire => 2 or so) - if it does, the staff is probably (based on my reasonable sounding WAGs) almost spent. Whereas if it costs only ~6 charges to raise all those vampires we see, the staff is nowhere close to spent. Although I'm actually not quite sure why we're doing this in the first place? Ah, I see. We're trying to figure out how possible it is that the Recently Lowered Priest of Hel didn't actually learn Protection from Daylight - not like it would be a bad idea to do so anyway, but he might not have.

edit: Also you're right about those ranges. Consistency, eh?

[Chronos]

There's too much we don't know about the staff. While a staff might cost 1 charge for a 4th-level spell, 2 for a 5th, and 3 for a 6th, you could also have a staff that costs 1 charge for a 6th, 2 for a 7th, and 3 for an 8th. It'd be a more expensive item, but then, as said, Malack has plenty of wealth for items. All we actually know is that ever spell costs at least one charge, the staff started with at most 50 charges, and every vampire we see at the Godsmoot had to be targeted by the rapid-vampirization spell. I really doubt that it's a multi-target spell, just because it'd be used on multiple targets so seldom, but even that is possible.

Quoth b_jonas:

Wait, really? That sounds much more powerful than I thought. That means a staff is basically a spontaneous caster in a can, and can be used by wizards or clerics. Thank you for the info.

Well, you also have to have a spell on your class spell list in order to be able to cast it from a staff (or fake it using the Use Magic Device skill). So a cleric with a wizard's staff, or vice-versa, probably won't be able to use most of the spells in it, and a fighter with any staff probably won't be able to use any of the spells at all. And most staves only have two to six different spells in them, usually along some theme, so you can't necessarily pick and choose a staff with exactly all the spells you'd want.

[Quild]

For the records, last panel contains 3 vampires that did not appear in last panel of previous page.
One hit by a purple magic effect (from Hermod's HP)
One hit by a green magic effect (from Frigg's HP)
One killed.

[ghoul-n]

So guys, sorry if it was discussed already, but was there any sort of agreement on whatever that green glowy enrage thing did to Roy back in #1009?

Looks like some weird Heal + Greater Restoration combo and I just can't get it out of my head.

[unbeliever536]

There's no consensus on any part of how that ability worked, except that it relates to the Greenhilt sword and gave Roy a full heal. The color of the aura indicates that it relates to the starmetal in the blade, but there was not consensus on that point (I recall someone proposing an heirloom-based prestige class, for example). It's persistence implies a buff, but what kind is unclear.

[Kornaki]

Thought: Durkonula's counterspell weakly indicates he can still memorize Thor's Lightning (or dispel magic, I know).

Also, the fact that he readied an action to counterspell this one priest out of the whole room is a bit remarkable. Is there any other way he could have done that?

[unbeliever536]

Thought: Durkonula's counterspell weakly indicates he can still memorize Thor's Lightning (or dispel magic, I know).

Also, the fact that he readied an action to counterspell this one priest out of the whole room is a bit remarkable. Is there any other way he could have done that?

By the Domain Agreement, the former high priest has access to some equivalent of Thor's Lighting a la (Thor/Hel)'s Might. If the Domain Agreement is worth the divine metaphorical paper its written on, that equivalent should be enough to counter the High Priest of Thor's.

[zimmerwald1915]

By the Domain Agreement, the former high priest has access to some equivalent of Thor's Lighting a la (Thor/Hel)'s Might. If the Domain Agreement is worth the divine metaphorical paper its written on, that equivalent should be enough to counter the High Priest of Thor's.

If Thor's lightning is a standard cleric spell, then yes. If it's a domain spell in a domain not offered by Hel, then no.

But there's no need to resort to shenanigans here. The vampire could simply have counterspelled with dispel magic.

[illyahr]

If Thor's lightning is a standard cleric spell, then yes. If it's a domain spell in a domain not offered by Hel, then no.

But there's no need to resort to shenanigans here. The vampire could simply have counterspelled with dispel magic.

Or has Improved Counterspell and used a spell of the same school but higher level.

[grandpheonix]

Is it fair to assume tarquin has improved unarmed strike, deflect arrows and snatch arrows as feats?

[Chronos]

That's the only possibility within the rules consistent with all of the evidence, but enough people insist otherwise that the topic has been dropped for lack of consensus.

[grandpheonix]

That's the only possibility within the rules consistent with all of the evidence, but enough people insist otherwise that the topic has been dropped for lack of consensus.

I mean, a human fighter with 15ish levels would have the feats to throw around, yeah? 1 improved unarmed strike
H deflect arrows
B snatch arrows
2 wep prof whip
3 wep focus g axe
6 wep focus whip
9 combat reflexes
12 Improved grapple
15 combat expertise

[Douglas]

The problem is that it doesn't let him catch 2 arrows in the same round unless he also has Infinite Deflection, and there are several distinct problems with the idea of him having Infinite Deflection.

[grandpheonix]

I dont know what, but I always thought Tarquin picked that up from one of those splatbooks that he was talking about earlier during his fight with Elan (how he picked up a way to Pun fight as well?)

[unbeliever536]

If Thor's lightning is a standard cleric spell, then yes. If it's a domain spell in a domain not offered by Hel, then no.

But there's no need to resort to shenanigans here. The vampire could simply have counterspelled with dispel magic.

Quite right. I had assumed we knew both of the living Durkon's domains.

[Steven]

I dont know what, but I always thought Tarquin picked that up from one of those splatbooks that he was talking about earlier during his fight with Elan (how he picked up a way to Pun fight as well?)

Quite possibly.

But in this thread we require evidence for things and, importantly, consensus. On the subject of Tarquin there is little of either. (The evidence doesn't fit RAW to the satisfaction of all.)