OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread

[A.A.King]

It's come up THREE TIMES on separate occasions. How much more do you need.

Regardless of the solitaire context. Just imagine Haley saying the same line about having kissed a boy.

I need this information, if true, to come up in an different context. Had it for example been Elan be the one who said instead of Bandana I'd have agreed with you on what the missing word, about the latent bisexuality and about the kissing girls. You know my reasoning for why I don't think Bandana wouldn't have this information, if true, and therefore couldn't be alluding to it.

Yes, it would have been totally different if it had been "Kissed a boy", but not everybody who secretly lies about the number of times he/she kissed a person of the same gender by claiming it to be nothing more than 0 isn't automatically a bisexual.

Bandana, little heart breaker that she is, simply has had more than one obsessive ex-girlfriend and after being attacked a few times by women who simply couldn't let go she simply jumped to a conclusion after seeing one woman attack another.

But seriously, I don't think of it as anything more than friendly banter just yet and maybe the giant showing once again his opinion about people who would have ended at "ewww, gross"
If this really is Haley's big secret, which I don't think it is, it will come up later. So why not wait till then?

[Killer Angel]

I will admit to being a little disappointed by this being a golem they're fighting, but the revelation of ghost airships more than makes up for that. Rich may have beaten out Neil Gaiman for best fantasy use of airships, in my view.

To be fair, the Flying Dutchman is around since 18th century...

[A.A.King]

Haley didn't exactly pretend to be asexual. Her crush on Elan wasn't a secret to anyone but Elan, and she actually used her potential to fall for guys to her advantage back with the teenage goblin in the first arc.

Haley's trust issues lead her be afraid of queerphobic response from people. She has exactly zero reasons to expect this response from Bandana, especially when BANDANA STARTED IT HERSELF.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure we have yet to meet any people in the OOTS world who are queerphobic. Granted, up until now we haven't met many who were queer, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant decided that, in his world, such a thing simply doesn't exist. Far from it, actually. At this moment I believe the world of OOTS to atleast in that regard be a world better than our own and people there don't have to be afraid of queerphobic responses.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[oppyu]

Bisexual is a label that a lot of people disagree on (what constitutes bisexuality, what's the line between a bisexual and someone who is not bisexual, is it really even a thing, etc.), but there's no questioning that some part of Haley is attracted to women at this point. Even if it weren't canonically established already nobody would be doubting Haley's attraction to men if the genders in the conversation were reversed, she's kissed more than one woman and one of her sub-personalities is named Haley's Latent Bisexuality.

[Quild]

Imagine that Crystal is a guy and Bandana asked if it's the ex-boyfriend. Sounds better?

That is actually what bugs me about it, it wouldn't sound better at all. It would sound really weird.

How do you spontaneously expect the undead monstruosity that attacks someone to be an ex?
Would Bandana ask the same thing if it was Bozzok or Yor attacking?

[littlebum2002]

one of her sub-personalities is named Haley's Latent Bisexuality.

This. I can't believe bisexual erasure is so bad that our character literally has a part of her personality labeled "latent bisexuality" and people still deny she's bisexual.

[oppyu]

Honestly at the time I took that personality to mean Haley was predominantly heterosexual but every now and then a subconscious part of her occasionally glanced at women. It wasn't until this comic's confirmation that Haley actively engaged with her attraction to women (enough to identify that she was/is into women and knows what she likes and doesn't like) that I really considered her bisexual at least in some sense of the word.

[HandofShadows]

One NASTY Flesh Golem. I doubt it's a standard type somehow considering how it/she is acting.

As for Haley's "bending both ways", just remember Elan was courious. Someone better have a stock of scrolls of Remove Curse around though.

[fishguy]

Probably Cadaver Golem. "Misshapened constructs easily mistaken for flesh golems, but they are more intelligent and dangerous, capable of making use of the skills and abilities of those who contributed to its body."
Edit: It cannot be a cadaver golem, as it requires at least six bodies.

I think the guild had a few cadavers lying around at that time due to Belkar's thrashing of the membership.

[Shadowknight12]

That is actually what bugs me about it, it wouldn't sound better at all. It would sound really weird.

How do you spontaneously expect the undead monstruosity that attacks someone to be an ex?
Would Bandana ask the same thing if it was Bozzok or Yor attacking?

IMO Bandana is being biased from her own experience. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her exes had been turned into a wight, vampire or some other type of undead and had been sent against her in a dramatic duel. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing a cheesy BBEG would do to the hero's second in command, and it's also the type of adventure that would happen to Julio.

[Quild]

IMO Bandana is being biased from her own experience. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her exes had been turned into a wight, vampire or some other type of undead and had been sent against her in a dramatic duel. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing a cheesy BBEG would do to the hero's second in command, and it's also the type of adventure that would happen to Julio.

Sounds like a fair assumption.

[Keltest]

This. I can't believe bisexual erasure is so bad that our character literally has a part of her personality labeled "latent bisexuality" and people still deny she's bisexual.

The key word here is "latent." There may be (read: is) some part of her that is attracted to women as well, but unless something has changed since Azure City, it is not a part of her actively involved with decision making.

[happycrow]

The key word here is "latent." There may be (read: is) some part of her that is attracted to women as well, but unless something has changed since Azure City, it is not a part of her actively involved with decision making.

I'm straight and that's a rejoinder I might say to a gay friend of mine (or any of them) in similar circumstances. I'm filing this under "not particularly significant."

Quite curious what happens once she gives up on the arrows and pulls out Crystal's old knife, though.

[Ivrytwr]

Hmmm, not happy to see Crystal back.
Roy could make quick work of her, I wonder if Durkula could take advantage of this ...
Poor Elan, missing out on plot points dropping everywhere.

Thanks Giant.

[Kaytara]

Haley's Not-So-Latent-Bisexuality rears its head. Approval. It's always good to see the 'ew, not THEM' instead of 'ew, no homo' as a response to that question, too.

Personally I've assumed that 'latent' referred to her being in denial about it when it was used back in the Azure City arc, and that, for whatever reason, she's no longer in denial about that. Arguing that someone is actively vs. latently bisexual depending on whether they're *currently* dating a man or not seems... weird.

[goodpeople25]

The key word here is "latent." There may be (read: is) some part of her that is attracted to women as well, but unless something has changed since Azure City, it is not a part of her actively involved with decision making.

Just a question why are we so sure it is latent it was called that only by Haley's self loathing also the fact she thought the dress was hot seems to contradict the latent part.
i dislike reaching into the meaning of the strip but taking everything at face value led into the Tarquin fiasco im.

unless latent means hidden to others not herself in this case is that a possible definition?

[Keltest]

Just a question why are we so sure it is latent it was called that only by Haley's self loathing also the fact she thought the dress was hot seems to contradict the latent part.
i dislike reaching into the meaning of the strip but taking everything at face value led into the Tarquin fiasco im.

unless latent means hidden to others not herself in this case is that a possible definition?

Latent means not yet manifested. And if she were repressing it, her inner selves would probably refer to it as repressed, not latent. As far as I have seen, she has no reason to lie to herself about it to that level.

[Dodom]

Am I the only one who just finds Crystal pathetic?
She thought she'd be rezzed and good as new, but instead she's only going to exist as this monstrosity and is apparently self-aware, I see something tragical in her rage.

[MDR]

I'd be surprised if a place such as this town doesn't have a way to capture and hold runaway constructs.

As for the sexuality discussion...yes, Haley has expressed at least a previous curiosity. Was it just a phase she went through, or does it imply she is attracted to both genders? I do not know. Nor do I care. Either way it has not shown itself to be important (yet). But in this particular case, I think it was just for joke purposes. I know that when I read the 'Ewww, gross.' comment, my jaw dropped and I thought "Really? You said THAT, in front of HER?", but then I read the part about having better taste, and I gave a good laugh because I just got skunked by the Giant.

[goodpeople25]

Latent means not yet manifested. And if she were repressing it, her inner selves would probably refer to it as repressed, not latent. As far as I have seen, she has no reason to lie to herself about it to that level.

Im not saying this is true but that its possible but Haley's self loathing is only one part of her And on the lying to herself part isn't that part of Haley's arc at that point also wether or not she lies about to her self on that level depends on the significance of the bi-sexaulality like the aforementioned Rachel
But whatever l think it could be significant u don't let's just agree to disagree.

Unrelated anyone think we'll get Rachel backstory with bandana just a guess

[pendell]

See Haley, this is why you go melee and pick up Penetrating Strike.

So she's become some kind of flesh golem that retains its intelligence score. Is it homebrew or from a rulebook? But why was she turned into this and not raised?

This has to be a homebrew of some kind. As to why she was turned into a flesh golem, I offer two speculations:

1) Raise dead and/or resurrection is a lot less commonly available than we might think. It took a whole book to get Roy raised, which would not have happened if every town had a resurrection-while-u-wait drivethrough.

2) It may be cheaper to make a flesh golem than it is to pay the diamonds for raise dead, plus flesh golem Crystal is a more dangerous enemy than living Crystal was, especially if Bozzak has a deal with whomever is running the show now that Grubbwiggler is dead ..

.. unless Grubbwiggler was golemed by his assistants as well?

Just because he was killed doesn't mean he stayed dead, after all.

*Tips his hat to the Giant for another excellent comic*.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[happycrow]

Am I the only one who just finds Crystal pathetic?
She thought she'd be rezzed and good as new, but instead she's only going to exist as this monstrosity and is apparently self-aware, I see something tragical in her rage.

Pathos, yes, tragedy, no. Crystal has never had enough of a soul to warrant the decision-making inherent to tragedy.

[gerryq]

Hey, Haley's latent bisexuality apparently wasn't quite so latent.

Oh God, there are going to be pages and pages of people deeply offended by the gayness.

So far, I only see pages of people trying to find gayness where there's not much evidence of it.

[littlebum2002]

Latent means not yet manifested. And if she were repressing it, her inner selves would probably refer to it as repressed, not latent. As far as I have seen, she has no reason to lie to herself about it to that level.

Yes, Latent bisexuality means Haley has not yet explored her bisexuality (except, apparently, for some kissing, which honestly doesn't mean much). But that does not mean she is not bisexual! She has literally stated outright she IS bisexual, she actually has a literal personification of bisexuality in her head. But we still have massive bisexual erasure like this:

In OOTS 382 the one mention of "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" definitely sounds like a joke to me. It wasn't "in the background, hanging out and meaning stuff." She appeared in even less panels than "Peroxide".

She says, "I kissed a girl once, okay more than once" as the possible secret to cure her speach, but only AFTER having also admitted "cheating at solitair". I don't think the OOTS world has a big vendetta against Solitair Cheaters. Somebody wanting to keep something secret doesn't have to mean the world wants you to keep it secret. It might be nothing more than "Everybody experiments in college".

I don't buy that she told Bandana about her (by you) supposed bisexuality secret, because I don't buy that the OOTS world is a world which would require ppl to keep it secret. Therefor I don't think that line reveals information about Haley, because I don't believe Haley to be close enough to Bandana to share secrets with her not shared with anyone else. Deal with it.

and

You know the term "girlfriend" used by girls doesn't necessarily sex partners. Haley means "I have better taste in friends than that."

and

So far, I only see pages of people trying to find gayness where there's not much evidence of it.

Haley is bisexual. We know this. It is a fact, it is canon. She is attracted to men and women, she just hasn't told anyone she is attracted to women, or that she experimented with kissing girls when she was younger. (just like she hasn't told anyone anything else about herself, either.) But "not acting on your sexuality" does not mean "not having your sexuality". So she is attracted to women, and that's why she said "I have better taste in girls than this". She means, IF she would have ever dated a girl, then they would have been better than Crystal, which honestly doesn't say much.

I've heard about bisexual erasure from my bisexual friends, but never really understood how bad it was until I saw someone state outright they were bisexual and see people STILL denying it. Ouch.

[Tvtyrant]

IMO Bandana is being biased from her own experience. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her exes had been turned into a wight, vampire or some other type of undead and had been sent against her in a dramatic duel. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing a cheesy BBEG would do to the hero's second in command, and it's also the type of adventure that would happen to Julio.

Now I'm imagining a Scott Pilgrim VS. The World scenario.

[happycrow]

So far, I only see pages of people trying to find gayness where there's not much evidence of it.

There will be pages and pages of "deeply-offended" people anyway. I've got a "pretty sure I've got V nailed down" theory I'm leery of even posting for fear that it'll wind up locked-in-three. Our track record on any topic touching on gender is pretty bad.

[happycrow]

In terms of a rescue by another PC, architecturally they don't look like they're near the Temples. But the building Elan bounced towards *does* look a bit like "Hats and MORE!" That's probably reading too much into it given the clear backgrounding of the other buildings, but given their locations in town, if there were to be an intervention, I'd expect it to come from Belkar or Varsuvius rather than Roy.

[Psyren]

To those wondering "how did Crystal find Haley" - she has enough of Haley's hair to make a stylish pompadour, that would make scrying extremely easy especially now that they're off the airship. And the Cloister should have worn off a while back.

As for how they got to her - Villain Teleportation, plus Bozzok and co. may have been to the Northern Lands before whereas the Order (save Durkon) have not.

[Bulldog Psion]

This might be somewhat crude and gory of me but... did anyone else expect there to be a decapitation when they read the comic title?

Well, I guess I'm a bit crude and gory then, too.

However, I did figure that it was her IQ a second later, even before clicking through to the comic, considering how much was said about her being smarter this way in the last discussion thread, and that being used as an argument for "revenant."