General WoD Discussion #4: Rage Against the God-Machine

[Anonymouswizard]

I wish, but if the relentlessly constant development of actual medicine were going to have hurt the quackery industry at all it would have done so long ago.

I can still dream.

EDIT' homeopathy totally works, I have a glass of water and it contains the idea to fetch the medicine. Far better than mainstream homeopathetic quackery.

Link?

The best I can do is copy-paste the blurb from the Onyx Path forums.

Deviant: The ??? – You woke up…different. Someone changed you; on a slab, an operating table, an altar. By luck or by fate, you escaped. Hunted by the ones who made you, they hold all the cards. Except one thing, what they don’t know is that a fire burns within you because what they did wasn’t right. What they don’t know is that YOU’RE hunting THEM. Deviant: The ??? presents a game where the victims of experiments band together to bring down the monolithic organizations that twisted and warped them. 320 pages. PDF/PoD + limited edition print run.

If I understand Sleepers correctly, get enough computer scientists suspicious at your server room and Bad Stuff will start happening to it completely spontaneously.

Make the server room a sanctum.

[Morty]

Curious. There's a lot of overlap with Changeling and Promethean there, but that might be a deceiving impression. I'm also very happy about Hunter getting a second edition treatment. I wonder what they'll do with it.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

The Chiron Group, from Hunter, which May Or May NotTM be a front for the Seers of the Throne or some other eldritch concern. They wouldn't like anyone muscling in on their monopoly on supernaturally-derived medicine.

Also Last Dynasty International from Mummy.

[Milo v3]

Deviant sounds like Prometheans without the Superhard to mix with other things, and with rebelling against the 1%-er's rather than being supernatural jewish sterotypes turned up to 11.

[Anonymouswizard]

So apparently we are going to get a fourth edition of Vampire the Masquerade. I know that the maths doesn't quite add up, unless we stick a number between 2 and 3 (I vote for 7, it's all smug standing just below 8), but I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll include a highly cleaned up ruleset and makes some changes to the fundamental setting (bring Roads into the modern day!).

[SaurOps]

So apparently we are going to get a fourth edition of Vampire the Masquerade. I know that the maths doesn't quite add up, unless we stick a number between 2 and 3 (I vote for 7, it's all smug standing just below 8), but I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll include a highly cleaned up ruleset and makes some changes to the fundamental setting (bring Roads into the modern day!).

And, following on that, I look forward to the likely arriving-one-year-after W:t4 having better distinctions between Fox and Berserk frenzies, among other potential tidbits. Some of the Gifts still feel weaksauce, but then, their power level was always a crap shoot.

[Halbaradkenafin]

I'm going to be playing in a Mage the Awakening game soon and I've been doing some reading on the system and setting (played Ascension a long time ago but not Awakening). I've decided to be a Mastigos and probably with Guardians (might change that though once I read through the order books) so I've been focusing mostly on reading up the Space and Mind spells to get an idea of what I can do.

One thing has occurred to me is using Google Maps (or similar) to increase Sympathetic connection to a location to then Scry/Portal to it. Does this work and how much would it increase the connection? I'd figure it's enough for Encountered or possibly Acquainted (with enough time spent using it and street view etc). I did try googling for this but there are obvious problems with searching "Mage the awakening scrying google maps" or similar.

Any suggestions for rotes? I'm thinking Ward as the character is already pretty paranoid before becoming a mage, maybe sight spells or armour spells for the extra duration?

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm going to be playing in a Mage the Awakening game soon and I've been doing some reading on the system and setting (played Ascension a long time ago but not Awakening). I've decided to be a Mastigos and probably with Guardians (might change that though once I read through the order books) so I've been focusing mostly on reading up the Space and Mind spells to get an idea of what I can do.

One thing has occurred to me is using Google Maps (or similar) to increase Sympathetic connection to a location to then Scry/Portal to it. Does this work and how much would it increase the connection? I'd figure it's enough for Encountered or possibly Acquainted (with enough time spent using it and street view etc). I did try googling for this but there are obvious problems with searching "Mage the awakening scrying google maps" or similar.

Any suggestions for rotes? I'm thinking Ward as the character is already pretty paranoid before becoming a mage, maybe sight spells or armour spells for the extra duration?

I don't own Awakening, preferring the metaphysics of Ascension (ironically, because I find it easier to understand the Consensus than The Lie), but it sounds like something the Diamond Orders would insist doesn't work. A Free Council mage would then whip out his cell phone and prove that it works better than Scrying as long as you include the most relevant Wikipedia page open on your Tablet while doing this on your phone and have a few dead AA batteries, because Google Maps might as well be a mystical symbol (you've got two mystical symbols of the location right there, as well as a few of technology), although an Awakening fan should double check this for errors.

[Tome]

Any suggestions for rotes? I'm thinking Ward as the character is already pretty paranoid before becoming a mage, maybe sight spells or armour spells for the extra duration?

Spells you want to take as Rotes:

• Spells where the increased dice pool is really important.
• Vulgar spells that you intend to cast frequently.
• Spells from outside your Ruling Arcana.

So mage armour spells, being covert spells from Ruling Arcana with fixed duration and strength, are really bad candidates for Rotes.

Ward, being a covert spell from a Ruling Arcana and typically cast infrequently with plenty of time to gather dice bonuses (ritual casting, high speech etc.), is also probably a bad choice.

The Mage Sight of your third arcanum is probably a good candidate if you intend to use it. Really, most of your Rotes should be from outside your Ruling Arcana. Things like Alter Conductivity, Spirit Tongue, Lesser Spirit Summons, Healing Heart, Momentary Flux or Perfect Timing.

Within your Ruling Arcana Scrying might be an okay choice, as the rolls can get pretty difficult. Emotional Urging is also widely applicable and a resisted roll. I'd still go with spells from a non-Ruling Arcana though.

I don't own Awakening, preferring the metaphysics of Ascension (ironically, because I find it easier to understand the Consensus than The Lie), but it sounds like something the Diamond Orders would insist doesn't work. A Free Council mage would then whip out his cell phone and prove that it works better than Scrying as long as you include the most relevant Wikipedia page open on your Tablet while doing this on your phone and have a few dead AA batteries, because Google Maps might as well be a mystical symbol (you've got two mystical symbols of the location right there, as well as a few of technology), although an Awakening fan should double check this for errors.

The philosophical difference between the Diamond and the Council is that the Council posits that humanity actually creates new symbols, while the Diamond takes the position that all symbols already exist, they're just reinterpreted and displayed in new ways. So the Diamond Orders would see it as another manifestation of the symbolism of maps and representational images. The Free Council would potentially see it as a new bit of symbolism in and of itself.

Mechanically, it'd probably get you Known sympathy, for having lots of nice accurate photographs on hand.

[Halbaradkenafin]

Spells you want to take as Rotes:

• Spells where the increased dice pool is really important.
• Vulgar spells that you intend to cast frequently.
• Spells from outside your Ruling Arcana.

Thanks, I'll have a look through the other arcana and decide which one I want to take as 1 dot to start with, I was going to go with Mind 2 and Space 3 with my remaining dots as that gives me a good range of spells and makes me more of a support character (which I'd prefer as some of the other players are new to RPGs and I'd prefer the focus be on them).

I'll have a chat with the ST about Scrying and Sympathetic connection, Known would be nice but I'd imagine he might want to keep it a bit lower. I can always increase it with New Threads anyway should I need to (for Portal perhaps).

[NooDM]

This is a question I have on MtA spells.

As I understand spells, they can be modified by the arcana you know in a number of ways including Prepared Spells from Time, Sympathetic magic from Space, Conditional Duration from Fate etc.

I was wondering if sufficient Space arcana would allow you to alter the area a spell occupies by changing the "point of reference" by which that space is determined. Not sure how to explain this physics concept, so an example or two might help get the idea of what I mean across.

1. If I used Temporal Stutter (Time 4) to send someone to the same location several seconds into the future. Normally they would end up on the same location of earth (duh).
If I changed the point of reference to be in relation to the Sun instead of Earth, they would be roughly where the earth was several seconds ago as earth moves thousands of miles within a few seconds. So the target would be stranded in space or at least really high in the earths atmosphere.

2. If Faerie Glade (Time 5) was cast to be the entirety of a room, say 30ft radius. Normally it would be restricted to affecting that area. If I changed it to the 30ft radius of, say a rock, would that then mean that so long as the rock is portable, so would be the spell?

[Tome]

This is a question I have on MtA spells.

As I understand spells, they can be modified by the arcana you know in a number of ways including Prepared Spells from Time, Sympathetic magic from Space, Conditional Duration from Fate etc.

I was wondering if sufficient Space arcana would allow you to alter the area a spell occupies by changing the "point of reference" by which that space is determined. Not sure how to explain this physics concept, so an example or two might help get the idea of what I mean across.

1. If I used Temporal Stutter (Time 4) to send someone to the same location several seconds into the future. Normally they would end up on the same location of earth (duh).
If I changed the point of reference to be in relation to the Sun instead of Earth, they would be roughly where the earth was several seconds ago as earth moves thousands of miles within a few seconds. So the target would be stranded in space or at least really high in the earths atmosphere.

2. If Faerie Glade (Time 5) was cast to be the entirety of a room, say 30ft radius. Normally it would be restricted to affecting that area. If I changed it to the 30ft radius of, say a rock, would that then mean that so long as the rock is portable, so would be the spell?

Remember that, subject to ST oversight, Mages can freely improvise any spell they like that are within their Arcana. Both of your effects are possible.

1. Sounds more like a Conjunctional spell than anything. The question for your ST is what level of Space Arcana does this take? It could well take enough Space that you might be better off just teleporting someone there.

2. Sounds like something doable with just Time... but a mobile Faerie Glade might fall under the Practice of Dynamics, and thus be out of your reach. Consult your ST for details.

[hiryuu]

I find it easier to understand the Consensus than The Lie

Start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVDaSgyi3xE

[Anonymouswizard]

Start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVDaSgyi3xE

I know exactly what Plato's cave is, I can see the shadows from here.

I just don't get how The Lie works and how it interacts with magic. I'm confused as to whether the world is The Lie and reality is actually symbols (which I think is a cool concept), or if The Lie is that the world is mundane, but then how does that interact with magic to cause paradox? How does it effect magic in any way other than just making sleepers forget it?

It may be that, although it causes weird bumps from implications, I can easily see how the Consensus affected magic and the knock on effects, that makes it harder for me to work out why The Lie actually does this stuff it supposedly does.

[NooDM]

I know exactly what Plato's cave is, I can see the shadows from here.

I just don't get how The Lie works and how it interacts with magic. I'm confused as to whether the world is The Lie and reality is actually symbols (which I think is a cool concept), or if The Lie is that the world is mundane, but then how does that interact with magic to cause paradox? How does it effect magic in any way other than just making sleepers forget it?

It may be that, although it causes weird bumps from implications, I can easily see how the Consensus affected magic and the knock on effects, that makes it harder for me to work out why The Lie actually does this stuff it supposedly does.

While mystery is part of a theme in Mage, I can see about getting some of these things across.

Everything of the Lie is a falsehood (Fallen World) and only the Supernal is real, the 5 Supernal realms are 5 different ways of interpreting the supernal (An archmage coming to a new understanding of the Supernal could make another Tower within the new realm). When you awaken in one of these realms, you are connected to that realm.

The act of spell casting is using the rules that govern the Supernal to change something of the Fallen World, thus why it is easier to do so with the Subtle/Gross Arcana of your Realm then other Arcana (The requirement of a spent Mana for your non-ruling Arcana). The Subtle (Fate, Mind, Death, Spirit and Prime) is how the Supernal works, and the Gross (Time, Space, Matter, Life and Forces) are how the Lie operates.

The main thing that goes against the Supernal is the Abyss, which not only separates the Fallen World from the Supernal, but also distorts/destroys all but the most subtle of changes to the Fallen World that goes against the Lie (Rules of Physics) via Supernal rules.
All sleepers have a shard of the Abyss within them, which is how muggles disrupt spells to removing them completely. The sleeper then either forgets or justifies the events so that they aren't "Magic" to the sleeper (Electricity was from a mains port breaking, that fireball was a pyrotechnics trick etc).

I hope that helps explain a bit how it all works, though it can be up to ST to determine or hide the exact nature for his Chronicle, as mystery is a major theme.

[Anonymouswizard]

While mystery is part of a theme in Mage, I can see about getting some of these things across.

Everything of the Lie is a falsehood (Fallen World) and only the Supernal is real, the 5 Supernal realms are 5 different ways of interpreting the supernal (An archmage coming to a new understanding of the Supernal could make another Tower within the new realm). When you awaken in one of these realms, you are connected to that realm.

The act of spell casting is using the rules that govern the Supernal to change something of the Fallen World, thus why it is easier to do so with the Subtle/Gross Arcana of your Realm then other Arcana (The requirement of a spent Mana for your non-ruling Arcana). The Subtle (Fate, Mind, Death, Spirit and Prime) is how the Supernal works, and the Gross (Time, Space, Matter, Life and Forces) are how the Lie operates.

The main thing that goes against the Supernal is the Abyss, which not only separates the Fallen World from the Supernal, but also distorts/destroys all but the most subtle of changes to the Fallen World that goes against the Lie (Rules of Physics) via Supernal rules.
All sleepers have a shard of the Abyss within them, which is how muggles disrupt spells to removing them completely. The sleeper then either forgets or justifies the events so that they aren't "Magic" to the sleeper (Electricity was from a mains port breaking, that fireball was a pyrotechnics trick etc).

I hope that helps explain a bit how it all works, though it can be up to ST to determine or hide the exact nature for his Chronicle, as mystery is a major theme.

Most of it makes sense, but I'm now confused as to how the World (not the Fallen World) relates to the Supernal. I understand better how it all interacts though.

The first thing I'd do when playing a game of MtAw is try to get Ascension's Technocracy in thematically, as I infinitely prefer their fallen good guy status to the Seers 'serve our god and strengthen the lie' agenda.

[NooDM]

Most of it makes sense, but I'm now confused as to how the World (not the Fallen World) relates to the Supernal. I understand better how it all interacts though.

The first thing I'd do when playing a game of MtAw is try to get Ascension's Technocracy in thematically, as I infinitely prefer their fallen good guy status to the Seers 'serve our god and strengthen the lie' agenda.

You might have to clarify what is meant by "The world" You mean the universe? The planet? In relation to things like the Shadow and Twilight of werewolves? I might have misunderstood the question there

You could always have the main antagonists maintaining the status quo without realizing it upholds the lie, ignorance is bliss after all. Never did like the seeming Saturday morning TV show feel the Seers made. Making a grey/grey war of Mages is my plan if my group ever wants to give being Mages a go. ATM they seem to go towards the Hunters, fine by me, lets see how well they survive haha

[Anonymouswizard]

You might have to clarify what is meant by "The world" You mean the universe? The planet? In relation to things like the Shadow and Twilight of werewolves? I might have misunderstood the question there

Okay, you have 'The World' as in the universe, and 'the Fallen World'. What's the difference? Are either objectively true?

You could always have the main antagonists maintaining the status quo without realizing it upholds the lie, ignorance is bliss after all. Never did like the seeming Saturday morning TV show feel the Seers made. Making a grey/grey war of Mages is my plan if my group ever wants to give being Mages a go. ATM they seem to go towards the Hunters, fine by me, lets see how well they survive haha

Once my group is finished with MechWarrior I intend to run Ascension, really stressing that the Technocracy has done so much more for sleepers than mages ever did, and are just sliding too far to the 'order' side of science instead of the 'wonder' side of science. The Society of Ether is a bunch of hammy scientists! who slid too far to the other side (and all of their NPCs have an exclamation mark at the end of their concept).

[NooDM]

Okay, you have 'The World' as in the universe, and 'the Fallen World'. What's the difference? Are either objectively true?

I think both are the same, as Fallen World is with the lack of Atlantis (Whatever it was) and with spells being so hard to perform these days thanks to said Abyss as the world is now "fallen from grace" (though it happened stupidly long ago if the Dark Ages book set in neolithic times is any indicator).

I hope you get to make things work for a fun time, mages would be quite the change from mechs.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay, you have 'The World' as in the universe, and 'the Fallen World'. What's the difference? Are either objectively true?



Once my group is finished with MechWarrior I intend to run Ascension, really stressing that the Technocracy has done so much more for sleepers than mages ever did, and are just sliding too far to the 'order' side of science instead of the 'wonder' side of science. The Society of Ether is a bunch of hammy scientists! who slid too far to the other side (and all of their NPCs have an exclamation mark at the end of their concept).

The Technocracy are every cliché about the world shadow government/new world order/what have you.

The Sons of Ether are Sparks from Girl Genius.

Which one is more detrimental to the average mundane, do you think?

[Anonymouswizard]

The Technocracy are every cliché about the world shadow government/new world order/what have you.

The Sons of Ether are Sparks from Girl Genius.

Which one is more detrimental to the average mundane, do you think?

I knew there was a reason the Sons of Ether were mages!

Yeah, I get just hoe cliché the Technocracy is, but I still kind of find myself rooting for them in the Ascension War, seeing as they really aren't the horror some mages say they are. Ascension is really about safety versus freedom, and I'm sure that the founders of the Order of Reason would be horrified at both the SoE and the Technocracy.

In the end, if the Sons of Ether were allowed to run free they'd likely hurt a good number of people by accident, whereas the Technocracy at least tries to limit that stuff. On the other hand the Technocracy uses brainwashing, but seeing as they are in control probably a lot less than the traditions.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Technocracy represents a lot of the negative stereotypes of science/reason - lack of imagination, disregard for individual rights and life in the name of The Greater Good of Society, tendency to hire/recruit/brainwash emotionless sociopaths who'll slaughter everyone they meet in the name of their Paradigm. And if a few (hundred thousand) people get killed in the crossfire between them and Reality Deviants, it's fine, just have the media blame it on someone else and produce some new electronic gadgets to distract the masses.

Contrast this to the Traditions, who as a whole are very much pro-independence and individual rights...as long as it's their independence and individual rights and view of reality that are being respected first and foremost. If a few (hundred) innocent people get turned into squid as a side effect, uh...mea culpa?

Mage the Ascension is very much more about priorities than morality, per se. You can have heroes on both sides, but both sides are also naturally prone to supervillainy, at least from the perspective of the ordinary chuckleheads who get in the way.

[hiryuu]

I know exactly what Plato's cave is, I can see the shadows from here.

Alright, badass. Now for step two.

nMage's magic is external. The World of Darkness is the Venn-Diagram meeting point of five (or more) "Supernal Realms", perfected otherworlds which when they meet produce reality as we know it. The abodes of Gods, Angels, Demons, Totems, Fae and Shades, each Realm is about a singular Truth. The Realms are both external to and inside the soul of every human being; they're not so much a metaphor for the World of Darkness as the World of Darkness is a metaphor for them. They're the campfire outside Plato's cave that produces the shadows on the back wall everyone is living in.

Mages are people who have had an experience that sends them inside their own Souls and into the Supernal Realm that most resonates with them. By marking the Realm - usually by signing their name into it in some way - they create a connection to it. By drawing on that connection, a mage can override the reality of the World of Darkness with the rules of their Supernal Realm. At least, that's the theory. A long, long time ago, when humans were just one more creature in a very hostile universe, a civilization arose that produced and attracted vast numbers of mages. At the height of their powers, the rulers of this civilization decided to make a physical portal to the Supernal - they stormed the heavens, killed or exiled the Gods and set themselves up in paradise before rewriting the world to their satisfaction by altering the Truth at source.

That civilization now never existed, and there's a barrier between the "Fallen World" and the Supernal made up of everything that is Untrue. Mages have to breach this cosmological Abyss when they cast spells - try to cast too potent a spell or just get unlucky and the Truths you're drawing down get mingled with Untruths, called Paradox. The Exarchs, the ancient mages who now rule the Supernal Realms, are most concerned with making sure no one else achieves the same victory and encourage Humanity to mire themselves in the World of Darkness without realizing that it's a prison the Exarchs have constructed for them.

nMage, then, has no cultural trappings to its magic beyond the Gnosticism that the game's based on - all magical traditions are equally part of the Prison-world, although some of them might have glimmerings of Truth that have made it through the Abyss in them. The central conflict is between the mages that want to preserve what Truth is left, find any new Truth that makes it in or organize a jailbreak for Humanity on one side and those that have sold out to the Exarchs and are complicit in keeping people from Awakening in return for special privileges on the other - the Freedom versus Control of later oMage, without the clash of magical styles. The World of Darkness is ultimately the creation of powerful external entities, and although humanity is responsible for innovating the systems - religion, materialism, politics, hatred, conflict and so on - that the antagonist faction then encourage, the Exarchs and their servants are actively campaigning to prevent anyone developing past them. This is the lesson of nMage - Truth exists, if only we would look up from our petty lives to see it. A Human can choose to rise above the prison of the world, but the odds are sorely stacked against him. A Mage must balance the power they have with the responsibility to use that power wisely - the test that the Exarchs failed.

I just don't get how The Lie works and how it interacts with magic. I'm confused as to whether the world is The Lie and reality is actually symbols (which I think is a cool concept), or if The Lie is that the world is mundane, but then how does that interact with magic to cause paradox? How does it effect magic in any way other than just making sleepers forget it?

It may be that, although it causes weird bumps from implications, I can easily see how the Consensus affected magic and the knock on effects, that makes it harder for me to work out why The Lie actually does this stuff it supposedly does.

The Supernal is the world of idealized forms. The world that is more real than reality. Ascension magic, on the other hand, makes you more powerful the more of a selfish, solipsistic hipster you are, and "scientists" are either amusing goofballs which exist for you to chuckle at because they're a silly joke, or they're part of a vast conspiracy that sits around BEING THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF SCIENTISTS.

[Anonymouswizard]

The Supernal is the world of idealized forms. The world that is more real than reality. Ascension magic, on the other hand, makes you more powerful the more of a selfish, solipsistic hipster you are, and "scientists" are either amusing goofballs which exist for you to chuckle at because they're a silly joke, or they're part of a vast conspiracy that sits around BEING THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF SCIENTISTS.

Eh, I always saw the low-level Technocrats as actually behaving like real scientists: researching and testing a theory. Mechanically it works just the same as a Order of Hermes mage creating a wonder, but by actually working within the scientific paradigm they manage to make devices that the general public can use.

The metaphysics are also far easier for my poor feeble engineers mind to grasp. Although I sort of get The Lie now.

Also, the people I've seen have the most fun with 'science is wrong' TTRPG settings are scientists, and half the time if you apply something like, I dunno, science, to the metaphysics of the setting you can work out a lot.

And today we covered that the Order of Hermes are arguably better scientists than the Technocracy. Also, that the Sons of Ether are just plain cool andtheyshouldhaveanentiregamelinebasedaroundthemoh waitgenius.

[Ichneumon]

So apparently we are going to get a fourth edition of Vampire the Masquerade. I know that the maths doesn't quite add up, unless we stick a number between 2 and 3 (I vote for 7, it's all smug standing just below 8), but I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll include a highly cleaned up ruleset and makes some changes to the fundamental setting (bring Roads into the modern day!).

I'm optimistic as well, but I am curious what direction they will take. Judging on forum posts on the Onyx Path forum, it seems like the premisse is a post-Gehenna setting, which sounds really exciting and new.

[hiryuu]

Eh, I always saw the low-level Technocrats as actually behaving like real scientists: researching and testing a theory. Mechanically it works just the same as a Order of Hermes mage creating a wonder, but by actually working within the scientific paradigm they manage to make devices that the general public can use.

They require approval for the theory from the higher-ups. Technocratic "research" is literally a popularity contest based on votes. Ergo, scientists are "wrong" and only good for a hearty chuckle by the Order mages, or they're part of the conspiracy. There is no grey area. You can run it otherwise, but that's not how the setting is written.

The metaphysics are also far easier for my poor feeble engineers mind to grasp. Although I sort of get The Lie now.

Also, the people I've seen have the most fun with 'science is wrong' TTRPG settings are scientists, and half the time if you apply something like, I dunno, science, to the metaphysics of the setting you can work out a lot.

"Consensus" makes every aspect of your sensory impressions internal. You can't actually work out anything, because anything you work out based on observations and even things like math is wrong by default. Your data isn't even data. It's not that the metaphysics are there to grasp, there are technocally no metaphysics at all. Any research you do is crypto-anarchy: in Ascension, vaccine deniers are right because there are more of them than anyone else. Truth doesn't matter, only public opinion does. Germ theory isn't true. Air bags only protect you because we think they do. "Sweet" as a food flavor literally does not exist. Women actually are inferior to men. Evolution isn't real, genetics are all a lie, and technology can't provide anything unless everyone agrees it does. The scientific process cannot work at all because all instances of independent observation are unique instances that only appear to be the same or similar. Then it proceeds to tell us that the people who gave us air conditioning, toilet paper, and roofs over our heads are the bad guys. The setting is written terribly and with next to no thought about the implications of consensus.

Ascension's entire cosmology is that you have gained superpowers by being so selfish and solipsistic you've realized that THE MAN is mucking about in our lives with all these rules and social contracts getting in the way, especially really bossy rules like "mass cubes whenever volume squares" or "fire is rapid oxidation in an exothermal state."

Then you have to get five of these people with mutually exclusive cosmological beliefs who are capable of enforcing their cosmological beliefs on anyone nearby into the same room. Then you have to get them to work together to solve a mystery!

And today we covered that the Order of Hermes are arguably better scientists than the Technocracy. Also, that the Sons of Ether are just plain cool andtheyshouldhaveanentiregamelinebasedaroundthemoh waitgenius.

Should point out that by their own admission, the Sons of Ether are explicitly racist, sexist jerks who get off on defrauding and discrediting those hearty-chuckle scientists that the setting is so intent on calling dangerous, moronic criminals, while at the same time completely misrepresenting what science is actually about (they advocate a definition of "science" as "that which I think is true and can punch other people into believing").

I have run Ascension for over ten years (longer if we're adding 2nd Edition into it), I can tell you that your experiences are A) AWESOME, B) not in any way implied by the text and C) not the way anyone played it, at least around here.

Ascension's cosmology, by its very nature, upholds ignorance as a virtue, education as a dangerous, foolish, useless pasttime, and solipsism as the one truth.

Even so. There has to be a good game in there someplace. I know there is, because I keep trying to plan and run it. Either that or I have some kind of Stockholm syndrome only for RPGs.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think there's a good system in there, you just insist on overthinking things in the most pessimistic manner possible (for one thing, there are not more antivaxxers in the world than otherwise, the antivaxxers are just louder).

Consensus Reality functions approximately as our reality unless stated otherwise because the majority of people either 1) believe in the Scientific Method and its ability to explain the phenomena of life or 2) disbelieve it but don't have the willpower to overcome cultural zeitgeist. The inertial mass of all the billions of people who believe that gravity is directly proportional to mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between two objects, even if they don't understand it, is enough to keep people from spontaneously flying unless they're one of the rare breed with the wherewithal to impose a different opinion on the physics of their immediate vicinity.

That said, it's not completely consistent. Nothing in World of Darkness is, old or new. You just have to roll with the premise to play the game sometimes.

[Sith_Happens]

I hope you get to make things work for a fun time, mages would be quite the change from mechs.

Until the players figure out the right combination of Arcana to become mech pilots, of course.

The World of Darkness is the Venn-Diagram meeting point of five (or more) "Supernal Realms", perfected otherworlds which when they meet produce reality as we know it. The abodes of Gods, Angels, Demons, Totems, Fae and Shades, each Realm is about a singular Truth.

That's six.

Then you have to get five of these people with mutually exclusive cosmological beliefs who are capable of enforcing their cosmological beliefs on anyone nearby into the same room. Then you have to get them to work together to solve a mystery! fight crime.

Fixed that for you.

[Cirrylius]

The inertial mass of all the billions of people who believe that gravity is directly proportional to mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between two objects, even if they don't understand it, is enough to keep people from spontaneously flying unless they're one of the rare breed with the wherewithal to impose a different opinion on the physics of their immediate vicinity.

IIRC, it was always left ambiguous whether EVERYTHING was subject to consensus. Despite the fact that Science was the paradigm we eventually settled on, nobody knows if the large constants like "what is the sky, really?" or the small constants like "how does the chemistry of life work?" are the result of paradigm shift or just a way of explaining what was already there in terms precise enough to enact change on them.

Ascension's cosmology, by its very nature, upholds ignorance as a virtue, education as a dangerous, foolish, useless pasttime, and solipsism as the one truth.

...which would be pretty terrible if their foes weren't runaway control freaks bent on sterilizing literally every single event, animal, or sapient on or off earth that can't be represented by their paradigm, or that they just don't want to because, hey, remember how everybody hated us in the Mythic Era?!? Well NOW WHO'S IN CHARGE??

It's like they're preventing rabid raccoon attacks by gradually cutting down, draining, and paving over a whole forest , then deliberately filling it with dozens and dozens of BMV's and parking garages and tax service offices to discourage anyone from wanting to come see what all the fuss was about in the first place. And also that the raccoons who AREN'T rabid are getting pissed about the whole thing and coming out and sabotaging their efforts, and great, now the number of animal attacks on the news is up eight hundred percent, somebody call the editor...

Back when they were still the Order of Reason, they had a point- protect humanity and make the world explicable. Now, that humanity can largely defend itself and tomorrow follows today on a pretty regular basis, their purpose is... continuing to do what they've done since then- kill deviants and tell people what is and isn't possible, because dammit, if accomplishing our goal was good, accomplishing our goal perfectly forever at any cost to anyone who we don't care about must be better!

The Technocrats stopped being saviors and became villains when it their mission stopped being "defend and enlighten" and became "proactively defend and enlighten and EVERYBODY STOP BELIEVING IN EVERYTHING ELSE OR DIE BECAUSE IT MAKES OUR JOB HARDER".

[A_Man]

They require approval for the theory from the higher-ups. Technocratic "research" is literally a popularity contest based on votes. Ergo, scientists are "wrong" and only good for a hearty chuckle by the Order mages, or they're part of the conspiracy. There is no grey area. You can run it otherwise, but that's not how the setting is written.

Eh, I'm fairly certain that this point is entirely false, simply from reading the book on the Technocracy. (awesome book, btw). It says that there are some scientists and inventors who have absolutely no enlightenment, and are unrelated to the Technocracy, but come up advances in science. Never the really big things (space travel) but smaller things don't have to come from the Technocrats. Anything that really builds directly onto modern science doesn't need Inspired Science! to work. (think advances in new guns, new cars (but not self driving!), etc etc)

"Consensus" makes every aspect of your sensory impressions internal. You can't actually work out anything, because anything you work out based on observations and even things like math is wrong by default. Your data isn't even data. It's not that the metaphysics are there to grasp, there are technocally no metaphysics at all. Any research you do is crypto-anarchy: in Ascension, vaccine deniers are right because there are more of them than anyone else. Truth doesn't matter, only public opinion does. Germ theory isn't true. Air bags only protect you because we think they do. "Sweet" as a food flavor literally does not exist. Women actually are inferior to men. Evolution isn't real, genetics are all a lie, and technology can't provide anything unless everyone agrees it does. The scientific process cannot work at all because all instances of independent observation are unique instances that only appear to be the same or similar. Then it proceeds to tell us that the people who gave us air conditioning, toilet paper, and roofs over our heads are the bad guys. The setting is written terribly and with next to no thought about the implications of consensus.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way (and, imo, the way the writers meant it) is that the exact opposite. Science is true, because The Technocracy have established a consensus. Scientific breakthroughs don't need a newly formed consensus, since it's already agreed that science works. Science can be built upon, since it's already firmly in everyone's mind that it works. (except in, like, AmishTown and third world countries).

Have you read the dark ages book? (or the technocracy book?) The Mages were terrible! The OoR were great! If you played a mage, it was almost the equivalent of playing a Sabbat, ha ha. The poor were people you stepped on (aside from like, certain parts of certain traditions). The OoR were super heroes, practically, making people all agree on one way, and then making everyone's lives better that way. The problem with the technocracy is that it lead to the loss of imagination, and individuality. The Traditions represent the Individual, while The Technocracy represents Conformity. You get the decision to choose who's right.

Should point out that by their own admission, the Sons of Ether are explicitly racist, sexist jerks who get off on defrauding and discrediting those hearty-chuckle scientists that the setting is so intent on calling dangerous, moronic criminals, while at the same time completely misrepresenting what science is actually about (they advocate a definition of "science" as "that which I think is true and can punch other people into believing").

I have run Ascension for over ten years (longer if we're adding 2nd Edition into it), I can tell you that your experiences are A) AWESOME, B) not in any way implied by the text and C) not the way anyone played it, at least around here.

Ascension's cosmology, by its very nature, upholds ignorance as a virtue, education as a dangerous, foolish, useless pasttime, and solipsism as the one truth.

Even so. There has to be a good game in there someplace. I know there is, because I keep trying to plan and run it. Either that or I have some kind of Stockholm syndrome only for RPGs.

Sons of Ether advocate debunked sciences. Certainly silly in our world, but from their point of view, it was definitely not poorly tested, nor crazy science. It was just too supernatural for the Technocracy. (like Christianity, which was dropped by the Order in the 18th century maybe?). You know about the spontaneous flies experiment? The one where a scientist wanted to see if rotted food creates flies, and left 3 meats on a table for a week. One was uncovered, the other was in a jar but with holes in it to let air out, and the third was sealed. The 1st was covered, the second had flies over the holes, and the thrid was without flies, disproving the theory. The Sons of etehr did the same experiment, but to them, the 3rd had flies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether Is the namesake of the SoE. They were annoyed that the Technocracy decided to disprove everything they beleived in, starting with this, so they broke out. They still follow the scientific process, but they have different results from the consensus. Dunno where you get sexist, but I guess? Don't remember anything about it, but could be. No one was pure awesomeness in MtA (aside from virtual adepts)

As for your ABC statement, I can say with certainty that it didn't affect me. Had a number of games played with Mages, all fun.
Though they were pbp, so your mileage may vary.