General WoD Discussion #4: Rage Against the God-Machine

[DaveBrookshaw]

Well, one of the Supernal Realms in Mage is "Arcadia", which has Fey/Faeries in it.
The homeland of the True Fey in Changeling is also Arcadia.
Both are separated by some form of barrier from the main world, except one is the Abyss, only able to cross using the Watchtower in your Awakening, the other is the Hedge, which you CAN cross it'll just take your soul and why would you want to cross anyways.

There was a lot of debate over whether Changeling Arcadia was Mage Arcadia, what that meant, which description took precedence, etc.

Mage 2.0 is going to get rid of this by removing the concept of the Supernal Realms as physical places or 'planes of existence' type deals and make them more of a symbolic thing. So Changeling Arcadia is a real place, and Mage Arcadia is going to be the supernal metaphor of Fairyland. Or at least, that's my interpretation of what little information we've got about the Supernal Realms in Mage 2.0.
Brookshaw, you're welcome to correct me again if I've got it wrong, again.

Yeah, that's abut right. The poster above you managed to get pretty much the opposite of how the argument went, though - Mage was always "they could just be two different places, or alternate histories of one another!" while Changeling was all "Changelings freak out mages all the time! The Watchtower is in cArcadia! The Oracle made a contract with the true fae!"

(The worst book in Mage for it was my doing. Like, I personally wrote the "what if changeling Arcadia is a version of Mage arcadia that was never conquered by the Exarchs because Time"-hinting bit in Imperial Mysteries. But, I wasn't the Developer then and couldn't just say "they're different places".)

They're different places in 2nd ed. The changes to the Supernal World in Awakening (which you can read about here) require them to be different places, and I don't think it's much of a loss. The Fae simply join Angels, Demons, and Beasts as Supernal creatures that share a name with something in Fallen reality.

Note to self. Call something a "Shade" in a different gameline at some point. Finish the bingo card.

[DaveBrookshaw]

And another thing.

Mages don't try to fit everything they experience into their cosmology. Mages, even in 1st edition, get more powerful when they encounter something genuinely new to them. They are not the powered-by-sophistry paradigm mages of Mage: The Ascension, who have to explain everything according to their own rules. Mage: The Awakening mages love it when they can't explain something by their own rules, and their internal mythology is based on the idea that nothing apart from their own spells is the result of the Supernal, because of the Abyss. They anger and upset other supernatural beings in the World of Darkness by being perpetually curious and poking themselves into other monsters' business.

Some mage fans did not get the memo. Many more fans of other gamelines didn't either. The sterotypical reaction of a mage to a Changeling isn't "isyourarcadiadifferenttomyarcadia", it's "cool".

And, if the Changeling objects to being studied, it's "your powers work on contracts! I have Fate 4!"

[magic9mushroom]

Well, I don't happen to be a Mage fan, but my objection of overshadowing cosmology does have some merit, I think (in 1e, at least), and isn't just a misinterpretation. Mage has a LOT of realms, including one or two that entire other splats are built around, so to me it feels like they steal the spotlight.

And, if the Changeling objects to being studied, it's "your powers work on contracts! I have Fate 4!"

And, well, this is exactly what I meant by "overshadowing crunch". Though really, the horrible one is Alter Oath (accessible to a starting mage!) and the explicit ruling in Rites of Spring that it works on pledges. A three-dot zero-cost spell - and it's not like that spell's the only thing Fate 3 grants - should not be strictly superior to a specialised, five-dot Court contract that costs XP per casting (Oathbreaker's Honesty). And that's just the willing use of it; that spell can totally ruin any changeling when used offensively by haxxoring one of their most powerful mechanics into backfiring (because you can haxxor all their tasks into stupid **** like "kill your party" or even "kill yourself", essentially forcing all their sanctions).

Similar issues apply with Spirit mages being better than werewolves at one of werewolves' core strengths (negotiate with spirits? Ha! I have Spirit 3 and just mind-control them! Protect the Gauntlet? Ha! I have Spirit 5 and can alter it at will! etc.)

[Almarck]

Also, I believe it was stated in some books that Spirit mages can apply counter spells to Werewolf gifts, but I don't recall where I read that bit.

Hm, actually that reminds me of something, can a power that requires no dice roll, it just "happens" be counterspelled?

[magic9mushroom]

Also, I believe it was stated in some books that Spirit mages can apply counter spells to Werewolf gifts, but I don't recall where I read that bit.

Numinous Shield (a Spirit 3 spell in core) allows counterspelling of spirit powers, which it notes include Gifts, while it's active.

Hm, actually that reminds me of something, can a power that requires no dice roll, it just "happens" be counterspelled?

Mage spells always require a roll IIRC. But the Potency of a spell whose successes don't apply to Potency is assumed to be 1, so that would probably be the target for a "no roll" power that was subject to counterspelling due to something like Numinous Shield.

[Almarck]

Well, in this case I was mostly talking about say, all of the numerous self buffing Gifts that require no roll and have their effectiveness tied to renown. Does that mean their potency is considered = Renown?

Also, is Numinous Shield going to make a return as it is?

[Leliel]

And, well, this is exactly what I meant by "overshadowing crunch". Though really, the horrible one is Alter Oath (accessible to a starting mage!) and the explicit ruling in Rites of Spring that it works on pledges. A three-dot zero-cost spell - and it's not like that spell's the only thing Fate 3 grants - should not be strictly superior to a specialised, five-dot Court contract that costs XP per casting (Oathbreaker's Honesty). And that's just the willing use of it; that spell can totally ruin any changeling when used offensively by haxxoring one of their most powerful mechanics into backfiring (because you can haxxor all their tasks into stupid **** like "kill your party" or even "kill yourself", essentially forcing all their sanctions).

Similar issues apply with Spirit mages being better than werewolves at one of werewolves' core strengths (negotiate with spirits? Ha! I have Spirit 3 and just mind-control them! Protect the Gauntlet? Ha! I have Spirit 5 and can alter it at will! etc.)

And followed immediately by "oh crap, Paradox! Manifestation! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

Reach, in 2E, is something made for game balance; mages can haxx a lot, with the balance that the Abyss haxxes right back if they are unlucky. No such thing as a vulgar/covert split any more. If the mage wants to be safe, that's a ritual working, which takes time-and it doesn't last, not normally.

Also, Not Every Mage Has Every Arcana, and Intergame Balance Is A Myth.

[SiuiS]

And another thing.

Mages don't try to fit everything they experience into their cosmology. Mages, even in 1st edition, get more powerful when they encounter something genuinely new to them. They are not the powered-by-sophistry paradigm mages of Mage: The Ascension, who have to explain everything according to their own rules. Mage: The Awakening mages love it when they can't explain something by their own rules, and their internal mythology is based on the idea that nothing apart from their own spells is the result of the Supernal, because of the Abyss. They anger and upset other supernatural beings in the World of Darkness by being perpetually curious and poking themselves into other monsters' business.

Some mage fans did not get the memo. Many more fans of other gamelines didn't either. The sterotypical reaction of a mage to a Changeling isn't "isyourarcadiadifferenttomyarcadia", it's "cool".

And, if the Changeling objects to being studied, it's "your powers work on contracts! I have Fate 4!"

Mm. My problem is my introductory storyteller; we've always worked from the idea that the Supernal was conceptual, that symbols were just that, etc., so when he would make offhand remarks about the Supernal bleeding into/being present in the world naturally, I just nodded along.

We figured the shadow being what it is is probably close enough to the primal wild bleeding in, for example. But there were also statements like "a gunshot is a forces 3 event" that made visceral sense.

Well, I don't happen to be a Mage fan, but my objection of overshadowing cosmology does have some merit, I think (in 1e, at least), and isn't just a misinterpretation. Mage has a LOT of realms, including one or two that entire other splats are built around, so to me it feels like they steal the spotlight.

That's the point though. In Mage, you're the monster. Just like the other splats. It's "here's unlimited power, but you're not important so no one is watching you or even caring." And eventually you become a terrible human being – or a wise one.

Mages were ***** because they had broad did regional power which they assumed was equal to living the life and knowing it inside and out.

And a starting Mage can get around 50L in an area burst, I don't think being able to alter contracts is much different. They're breakable. *shrug*

Also, I believe it was stated in some books that Spirit mages can apply counter spells to Werewolf gifts, but I don't recall where I read that bit.

Hm, actually that reminds me of something, can a power that requires no dice roll, it just "happens" be counterspelled?

Yup. You can counter gifts the same as spells. This means either beating their activation roll with a counter spell or burning mana while hit and with a shield already up.

I don't see why non-roll stuff can't be countered, either. You can shut off blood rage with a gift, why not a spell?

Well, in this case I was mostly talking about say, all of the numerous self buffing Gifts that require no roll and have their effectiveness tied to renown. Does that mean their potency is considered = Renown?

Also, is Numinous Shield going to make a return as it is?

Good question. You talking 1e or 2e, now?

[Almarck]

I think the question is more what's the potency of a gift that has no roll that's more of the problem? I mean, I get that maybe counter spellng Gifts is okay for say a showdown and it's limited by action economy anyways, but I feel that Gifts that have no roll probably should be treat their effective potency as their Renown, mostly to make them harder to resist, but also because I think it makes sense given their effectiveness is tied to something else.

The power to end Death Rage is more specific and targets specifically towards werewolves in the same book and rules, but I don't think the counter spell rules account for powers without dice rolls.

Anyways 2e because I like not having to figure out renown for x gift or deal with 1e's more complicated system. Not that I hate 1e of course, it's just that I feel that it was so confusing and tedious to pick powers.

[magic9mushroom]

And followed immediately by "oh crap, Paradox! Manifestation! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

Reach, in 2E, is something made for game balance; mages can haxx a lot, with the balance that the Abyss haxxes right back if they are unlucky. No such thing as a vulgar/covert split any more. If the mage wants to be safe, that's a ritual working, which takes time-and it doesn't last, not normally.

That sounds like an improvement.

Remember that I was complaining about Mage creeping into everything in 1e.

Also, Not Every Mage Has Every Arcana,

Every Arcanum.

And while that's true, the immediate counter is Some Mage Has Any Arcanum.

and Intergame Balance Is A Myth.

I'll certainly agree that they're not supposed to be all the same power level.

But this is a matter rather of uniqueness and overshadowing. If you run a Changeling game in a WoD where mages exist and use their powers with roughly similar skill to the changelings, the PCs are going to get overshadowed by Acanthus mages who just pop in, fix everything instantly or wtfpwn you, and walk back out (or set themselves up as your unassailable overlords), because they beat changelings at their own strengths without much effort. Ditto for Werewolves and Thyrsus mages. This is not good for a game. And there's the issue of fluff overshadowing as well.

And a starting Mage can get around 50L in an area burst, I don't think being able to alter contracts is much different. They're breakable. *shrug*

There's a difference between "CharOp can break this" (which equally applies to Changeling; I know plenty of ways to break the system in half) and "other lines' sourcebooks explicitly state that Mages Are Better Than You And Can Overrule Your Powers".

[Sith_Happens]

Mage players trend toward forcing everything into the neat boxes of their cosmology (an amazingly meta thing, too!) while everyone else is tired of mages correcting them on their history and universe.

All the more reason for the true fae to up and leave one of those boxes, make a facsimile of it out of sticks and duct tape, and proceed to live there while yelling "NEENER-NEENER" at the rest of reality.

Yeah, that's abut right. The poster above you managed to get pretty much the opposite of how the argument went, though - Mage was always "they could just be two different places, or alternate histories of one another!" while Changeling was all "Changelings freak out mages all the time! The Watchtower is in cArcadia! The Oracle made a contract with the true fae!"

I can see this split playing out hilariously in-character.

Mage: "So I was in Arcadia the other day..."
Changeling: "You were WHERE!?"
Mage: "Arcadia, I just said so. Met the most curious fey who..."
Changeling: [*backs away slowly*]
Mage: "...Oh, sorry. Not your Arcadia, the other one."
Changeling: "There is no other one! It's all a Gentry trick to steal your soul and turn you against me! ...OH GOD THEY PROBABLY ALREADY DID."
Mage: "Okay, you really need to calm down. I'm sure with our combined knowhow there are plenty of easily verifiable differences between--"
Changeling: [*pulls out cold iron pocket knife*] "Back, back I say!"
Mage: "Oh for crying out loud. It wasn't the same Arcadia. If you really need proof I can take you there within the hour!"
Changeling: [*screams in panic and vanishes without a trace through the nearest doorway*]
Mage: [*sigh*]

[magic9mushroom]

I can see this split playing out hilariously in-character.

Mage: "So I was in Arcadia the other day..."
Changeling: "You were WHERE!?"
Mage: "Arcadia, I just said so. Met the most curious fey who..."
Changeling: [*backs away slowly*]
Mage: "...Oh, sorry. Not your Arcadia, the other one."
Changeling: "There is no other one! It's all a Gentry trick to steal your soul and turn you against me! ...OH GOD THEY PROBABLY ALREADY DID."
Mage: "Okay, you really need to calm down. I'm sure with our combined knowhow there are plenty of easily verifiable differences between--"
Changeling: [*pulls out cold iron pocket knife*] "Back, back I say!"
Mage: "Oh for crying out loud. It wasn't the same Arcadia. If you really need proof I can take you there within the hour!"
Changeling: [*screams in panic and vanishes without a trace through the nearest doorway*]
Mage: [*sigh*]

Now I'm reminded of that official Changeling adventure which boiled down to "Acanthus are stupid, throw rocks at them!" (The Lordly Lofts of Bedlam, Rites of Spring p.54).

[Anonymouswizard]

How balanced against each other are Vampire 2e and Werewolf 2e? I assume that due to the new gift system werewolves begin with slightly more power, but I'm wondering if that is 'if they spend renown wisely' rather than 'always'. I'm assuming that Mage 2e gives a lot more power in return for being more squishy, but it's also the one I'm least likely to use.

[Morty]

I guess I've never really worried about all those questions because Mage, as written, doesn't really interest me. It's not a bad game by any metric, and 2e seems to be doing some pretty awesome things with it. But the themes it explores and stories it's supposed to tell just go way above my head. It starts with the entire division of Supernal Realms and Fallen World.

[Andreaz]

It starts with the entire division of Supernal Realms and Fallen World.

The Supernal is just a lens, a filter through which the world can be depicted. The world alters it and it alters the world in turn. It's pretty much just plato's cave.

[Elderand]

How balanced against each other are Vampire 2e and Werewolf 2e? I assume that due to the new gift system werewolves begin with slightly more power, but I'm wondering if that is 'if they spend renown wisely' rather than 'always'. I'm assuming that Mage 2e gives a lot more power in return for being more squishy, but it's also the one I'm least likely to use.

I actually did the math when it comes to combat.

Ignoring merits that can be taken by everyone (IE, human merits) so based solely on merits, fighting styles and disciplines/gifts here is the conclusion I came to.

Vampires are far easier to speck for combat with starting clan having a limited influence since anyone can end up with any disciplines (granted, by paying more). End result is that vampires can throw around a lot of dice.

Werewolf specked for combat is more influenced by Auspice (Full moon gifts are very good for combat) Werewolves have less options to simply add to their dice pools but many more ways to simply add automatic weapon damage.

Conclusion: Vampires combat potential is very swingy, demanding an intense amount of vitae to be spent and can end up fabulous or craptastic depending on dice roll. Werewolves are harder to speck for combat but end up with a damage potential that is a lot more stable and demands less essence.

Disciplines vs gifts: Vampires just win on the social front, there is no question, a lot of disciplines exist solely to bypass social encounters entirely. Werewolf gifts tends toward debuffing, weakening and misleading, something only the highest dots of a couple disciplines can do. In the end Werewolf gifts have a lot more utiliy to them when compared to vampire disciplines.

Rites Vs Blood Sorcery: Advantage goes to blood sorcery if you use the blood and sacrament book, becoming much more varied. However it's hard to compare because they are designed to do entirely different things. It's more accurate to compare Blood Sorcery to Gifts in which case blood sorcery get more utility than gifts but gifts have the advantage of speed. And when it comes to widespread destruction, nothing beats a pack using facets of gifts of the elementals working together.

In term of teamwork Werewolf win, period. Yeah vampires can work together but they aren't greater for it. Werewolves on a sacred hunt are much greater than the sum of their part and that's a terrifying prospect.

In the end Vampires have the advantage when it comes to social matters, ease of replenishing ressources (walking happy meal all over the place).
Werewolves have better utility, better at weakening prey, better teamwork and a higher degree of starting competency.

Still a smart werewolf pack doesn't underestimate vampires, 5 dots disciplines are very nasty things that can shut down an encounter entirely even against werewolves. Smart vampires know not to mess with a werewolf pack because they can shut down your entire operation and make unlife very difficult for you. And they can't even count on being dead to shrug off their attack since a werewolf bite is just as nasty for vampires as it is for everyone else.

[magic9mushroom]

How balanced against each other are Vampire 2e and Werewolf 2e? I assume that due to the new gift system werewolves begin with slightly more power, but I'm wondering if that is 'if they spend renown wisely' rather than 'always'. I'm assuming that Mage 2e gives a lot more power in return for being more squishy, but it's also the one I'm least likely to use.

Actually, it sounds like Mage 2e gets less power. Or rather, the same amount of power, but Paradox won't be the paper tiger it was in 1e.

Mage is definitely top of the totem pole in 1e. Yes, every mage doesn't have every Arcanum, but they'll have a lot more of the puzzle than a vampire does of Disciplines or a werewolf of Gifts or even a changeling of Contracts. They don't have quite the inherent bonuses other splats do (though they do get a free Attribute dot and mana-healing) but they don't get any banes either. And while Mana isn't completely trivial to get it seems easier than Essence and less likely to cause trouble than Vitae. And it doesn't spontaneously evaporate the ways those can.

There is Paradox, but a rote and tool makes that irrelevant until Gnosis 5 - and there are plenty of covert spells that don't even require a roll. Not to mention that if you contain it it's just bashing damage, that goes away rapidly.

[Anonymouswizard]

Actually, it sounds like Mage 2e gets less power. Or rather, the same amount of power, but Paradox won't be the paper tiger it was in 1e.

I meant compared to Vampire 2e and Werewolf 2e, at least until I get Blood Sorcery (probably the single 1e book I'm interested in) I'm assuming that a mage is generally stronger than a vampire of similar age. Or at least more versatile.

Mage is definitely top of the totem pole in 1e. Yes, every mage doesn't have every Arcanum, but they'll have a lot more of the puzzle than a vampire does of Disciplines or a werewolf of Gifts or even a changeling of Contracts. They don't have quite the inherent bonuses other splats do (though they do get a free Attribute dot and mana-healing) but they don't get any banes either. And while Mana isn't completely trivial to get it seems easier than Essence and less likely to cause trouble than Vitae. And it doesn't spontaneously evaporate the ways those can.

There is Paradox, but a rote and tool makes that irrelevant until Gnosis 5 - and there are plenty of covert spells that don't even require a roll. Not to mention that if you contain it it's just bashing damage, that goes away rapidly.

I'm assuming I can use a spell to heal said bashing damage? Plus low level Arcana seem to make resources trivial (especially mind and matter), so I'm wondering what specifically has changed to make Paradox a problem, apart from the introduction of reach. I'm still on the fence about whether I should look into Ascension or Awakening though, as Ascension's fluff sounds far more interesting.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Mage isn't the only game that has the "we override your stuff" problem.

Geist is all about dealing with ghosts, right?

Mummies can just up and completely rewrite a ghost. Like, take the ghost of the victim of a serial killer who wants to get back at her murderer by lashing out at everyone, and BOOM, now the ghost is a protective spirit that is anchored to a completely unrelated necklace that the Mummy carries around.

Now imagine how that makes a Sin-Eater feel.

The main difference is Changeling is popular enough to basically be the fourth member of the Big Three, while almost nobody cares about Geist.

Edit: Paradox is explained HERE.

The tl;dr is:
Spells normally are cast as rituals, on you or something you touch, with the weakest default values.
To cast your spell quicker, stronger, or on different things, you add "reach". Adding additional effects adds "reach". There being sleeper witnesses adds "reach".
You can only add so much "reach" to a spell (1 default plus 1 for every dot you have in the Arcanum over the level of the spell) safely. Further Reach risks Paradox, based on your Gnosis and how much you Reach. If there are multiple sleeper witnesses, it'll give the Paradox dice pool 9 again, 8 again, or rote. You can reduce Paradox dice by spending Mana, but only down to a chance die. THen you have to decide whether to try to contain it, or let it loose. Containing it allows you to contest the Paradox roll with your wisdom. Each success with your wisdom cancels out a paradox roll and deals you one Bashing damage. If there's a Paradox roll you can't succeed, then you get a Paradox Condition: think Bedlam.
Releasing it, first off, gives you a penalty to cast equal to the paradox dice pool (with some ways to mitigate that). Secondly, each success in the paradox dice pool gives the STORY-TELLER a point of Reach to mess with your spell, in ways that won't harm YOU, but will definitely make your spell not quite what you wanted.
There's also some stuff about how if you previously got a paradox dice pool in the same scene, you automatically get one paradox die on each future spell you cast, and if you've previoulsy lost wisdom due to that spell, and stuff like that.

Example:
In the example above, a mage wants to suppress his sympathetic connections, a Space 2 spell. He has Space 3, so he has 2 Reach he can use. He uses 1 Reach to increase the Duration from 9 seconds to a week (switching which Duration chart he uses), and then takes a -2 penalty to cast to further extend it to a month (advancing duration on the same chart). (I think.) (I'm not sure why the second duration extention isn't more Reach, to be honest.) The penalty to cast is cancelled out by some stuff he's going to do in the ritual itself. He also wants to suppress ALL his sympathetic connections, so that's 2 extra reach, more than he can safely take. So because of his Gnosis 3, he know for some reason has 2 Paradox dice. Don't ask me, I don't know how that works. He then has the choice of containing or releasing the paradox.
If he contains it, he rolls the 5 dice of his wisdom, gets two successes, versus 2 dice of paradox, gets one success, so takes one bashing.
If he releases it, Paradox is rolled, get's one success, so he takes a -1 penalty to cast, and the Story Teller decides to use the extra point of Reach to create false sympathetic connections replacing the ones that were suppressed.

[hiryuu]

Mage isn't the only game that has the "we override your stuff" problem.

Geist is all about dealing with ghosts, right?

Mummies can just up and completely rewrite a ghost. Like, take the ghost of the victim of a serial killer who wants to get back at her murderer by lashing out at everyone, and BOOM, now the ghost is a protective spirit that is anchored to a completely unrelated necklace that the Mummy carries around.

Now imagine how that makes a Sin-Eater feel.

It makes the Sin-Eater go "oh yeah, I can do that"

And then realize that the Mummy is dead and therefore a valid target for the Sin-Eater to go "you remember everything" and "here's a beating heart" and "oh yes let me steal your delicious superpowers and stuff them in a gun." "I see what you did to that ghost. Time for your body to explode and for me to eat your god-juice."

Because really. Being dead and messing with a Sin-Eater's stock and trade is just asking for an Optimus Prime made of cyborg ghosts to hump a hole in your skull.

[Almarck]

Facinating. How exactly does that work though because mummies are technically both dead and alive?

Mind, that isn't to say that the giest would get no-selled, but it is an interesting thing to think about on whether you'd consider the Mummy valid as being undead "enough" versus their facsimile of life thing.

There's also considering on how stealing a Mummy's Sekhem would work since it constantly keeps declining the longer it's in out or in use... as well as the extremely large multitude of ways for the mummy to keep coming back.

Also, what's the "remember everything" power? How do you think that interacts with the Memory mechanic, assuming you're talking about putting it on the mummy?

On the notion of Sin-eaters, does anyone else wonder if Sineaters are considered "claimed" for the purposes of being valid targets for a Storm Lord's Sacred Hunt?

[SiuiS]

There's a difference between "CharOp can break this" (which equally applies to Changeling; I know plenty of ways to break the system in half) and "other lines' sourcebooks explicitly state that Mages Are Better Than You And Can Overrule Your Powers".

Not really. My point wasn't that any starting chapter could break any game. My point was any starting Mage could break anything by accident if the ST doesn't pay attention or isn't clever.

Like, I'm pretty sure 50L can be considered game breaking against just about anything.

All the more reason for the true fae to up and leave one of those boxes, make a facsimile of it out of sticks and duct tape, and proceed to live there while yelling "NEENER-NEENER" at the rest of reality.

Yeah, but then the mages just nod sagely and write that into their understanding of Arcadia.

Mage: "So I was in Arcadia the other day..."
Changeling: "You were WHERE!?"
Mage: "Arcadia, I just said so. Met the most curious fey who..."
Changeling: [*backs away slowly*]
Mage: "...Oh, sorry. Not your Arcadia, the other one."
Changeling: "There is no other one! It's all a Gentry trick to steal your soul and turn you against me! ...OH GOD THEY PROBABLY ALREADY DID."
Mage: "Okay, you really need to calm down. I'm sure with our combined knowhow there are plenty of easily verifiable differences between--"
Changeling: [*pulls out cold iron pocket knife*] "Back, back I say!"
Mage: "Oh for crying out loud. It wasn't the same Arcadia. If you really need proof I can take you there within the hour!"
Changeling: [*screams in panic and vanishes without a trace through the nearest doorway*]
Mage: [*sigh*]

Hee~

I'm assuming I can use a spell to heal said bashing damage?

Nope. Resistant damage, and u think it's the only actual source of it. You take four bashing and you have to wait the whole hour to get that damage back. My gosh.

Plus low level Arcana seem to make resources trivial (especially mind and matter), so I'm wondering what specifically has changed to make Paradox a problem, apart from the introduction of reach. I'm still on the fence about whether I should look into Ascension or Awakening though, as Ascension's fluff sounds far more interesting.

You can hold in paradox and suffer supposedly-permanent wear, or you can say "screw it" and let it all flow out into the world but be personally safe.

It makes the Sin-Eater go "oh yeah, I can do that"

And then realize that the Mummy is dead and therefore a valid target for the Sin-Eater to go "you remember everything" and "here's a beating heart" and "oh yes let me steal your delicious superpowers and stuff them in a gun." "I see what you did to that ghost. Time for your body to explode and for me to eat your god-juice."

Because really. Being dead and messing with a Sin-Eater's stock and trade is just asking for an Optimus Prime made of cyborg ghosts to hump a hole in your skull.

Eh. Cross splat pissing contests mean nothing except people want to win and rub others' noses in it. Sure, you could say a Geist can do this stuff to a mummy. But don't the mummy's have a "your magic fails. Also, you catch a supernatural disease, because I hate you" power? But maybe there's a werewolf one that gets around that! But there's also a Mage spell that counters that, and...

Nobody really cares. Whatever happens in an actual game? That's important. That's all that's important.

[Rater202]

Inter Splat pissing contests only matter in mix splat games, and a mixed splat game probably isn't going to have everybody doing things that piss each other off.

[Sith_Happens]

And then realize that the Mummy is dead and therefore a valid target for the Sin-Eater to go "you remember everything" and "here's a beating heart" and "oh yes let me steal your delicious superpowers and stuff them in a gun." "I see what you did to that ghost. Time for your body to explode and for me to eat your god-juice."

Because really. Being dead and messing with a Sin-Eater's stock and trade is just asking for an Optimus Prime made of cyborg ghosts to hump a hole in your skull.

Never mind the mummies, does all that work on vampires?

[hiryuu]

Don't usually go for the "inter-splat pissing game" myself. But you march any corpse up to a splat that explicity controls the boundary between life and death and is housing a primal, archetypal being that represents a facet of the entropy value of the universe, and that won't go well. It'd probably be glorious - though unlikely to happen unless the Mummy starts something. Really you have to remember that once a Sin-Eater joins a team, they get bonuses for working on that team and the team's coaches do nothing but tell them they are living gods, so getting Sin-Eaters set off is fairly easy.

Mummies, on the other hand. I don't know. I just didn't really ping on the book. I think it was the graphic design focus, mainly. And that it came in on the tail end of 1e. Thankfully the entire setting is modular and there's literally nothing in it that I need to run a good game.

Never mind the mummies, does all that work on vampires?

I usually rule that it does, it has great ramifications for Vampire games I'm running. Because of the way death stains work, potentially, they can pick vampires out of a crowd, wade into a web of ghouls and determine their hierarchy, and see who a vampire's fed on recently - and that's just with their normal perception powers, not getting into Keys and Manifestations. Just remember that a Sin-Eater is basically a necromancer and beguiler in one package and its powers get crazy stacking bonuses if it's using them on things without a pulse. Never forget ceremonies. Everyone forgets ceremonies. Sin-Eaters have a no-fail method of finding -anything- that's even vaguely related to dead things and it's only 1 xp. They can make zombies. They can crap out magic items almost every day with very little downside, and it is stupid easy to refill all of their power stats.

[Rater202]

A Beast's power stat, it's blood potency Equivalent, is it's lair.

I think this is the first time a Splat's power stat was something tangible.

[Almarck]

That's very interesting. How does that work? Mind providing us with the Link Rater?

[Rater202]

No clue.

Mat didn't say how it worked, just that it was

Link

[Blackhawk748]

Im gonna second the "Mage can accidentally a game" as i did this in a Mage Noir game. We were doing the quest in the back of the book and i was playing the guy that came out of a movie (pretty sure thats what he did) and i had Fate (or whatever one lets me do the Scrying thing, it was a long time ago gimme a break ) well one of my rotes said i could look back in time like 5 minutes, so i did, and again, and again, and again, basically condensing what should have been a several hour mystery into a 2 hour game of "follow the Seer" until we found the bad guy and killed him with the Spirit of a Sandwich (it was a one shot and it was hysterical)

So ya, Mage is fairly easy to accidentally break, just be a little creative with those rotes and you will probably catch an ST off guard .

[magic9mushroom]

I'm assuming I can use a spell to heal said bashing damage? Plus low level Arcana seem to make resources trivial (especially mind and matter), so I'm wondering what specifically has changed to make Paradox a problem, apart from the introduction of reach. I'm still on the fence about whether I should look into Ascension or Awakening though, as Ascension's fluff sounds far more interesting.

Nope. Resistant damage, and u think it's the only actual source of it. You take four bashing and you have to wait the whole hour to get that damage back. My gosh.

This. You can't heal it with magic, but it's bashing damage, and generally only a couple of points of it. It's a joke.

There are a couple of other sources of resistant damage (pattern scouring gives 3 Mana for 1 resistant lethal, and Tremere liches take resistant aggravated if they run out of souls) but it's the only source of resistant bashing I know of. Resistant lethal/aggravated do actually live up to the hype.

The main difference is Changeling is popular enough to basically be the fourth member of the Big Three, while almost nobody cares about Geist.

No, it's that Mage often overrules Werewolf, Promethean and Changeling.

Not really. My point wasn't that any starting chapter could break any game. My point was any starting Mage could break anything by accident if the ST doesn't pay attention or isn't clever.

Like, I'm pretty sure 50L can be considered game breaking against just about anything.

I'm pretty sure having literally every Merit of three dots or less is game breaking, too.

And Hours 2 terrorism comes pretty close to that 50L (mind filling me in on how you get that as a starting character, particularly "by accident"?).

Eh. Cross splat pissing contests mean nothing except people want to win and rub others' noses in it. Sure, you could say a Geist can do this stuff to a mummy. But don't the mummy's have a "your magic fails. Also, you catch a supernatural disease, because I hate you" power? But maybe there's a werewolf one that gets around that! But there's also a Mage spell that counters that, and...

Nobody really cares. Whatever happens in an actual game? That's important. That's all that's important.

Inter Splat pissing contests only matter in mix splat games, and a mixed splat game probably isn't going to have everybody doing things that piss each other off.

Not only mixed-splat games. Also games for the splat on the side that gets overshadowed.

I.E., Mage games can handle all this just fine. But a Changeling/Werewolf/Promethean game that has Awakened mages in it is going to have problems.



Oh, something I just read on TVTropes. Apparently spirit babies have been dropped from Werewolf 2e because "sexist". Someone care to explain that? Because I'm not understanding it at all.