General WoD Discussion #4: Rage Against the God-Machine

[Rater202]

It's sexist becuase the female suffers more than the male-he's got his spirit offspring that wants to kill him.

The female just went through nine months of nurturing that spirit, only for it to rip its way out of her, possibly killing her, and if she survives has to deal with having her murderous ghost offspring after her coupled with the depression similar to a parent who suffered a miscarriage or stillbirth, and the trauma of having her own offspring go alien on her.

She gets fracked up a lot worse, is what I'm saying, and since the ghost children were created to enforce the otherwise arbitrary "The People shall not screw the People" rule, it being something that punishes the female makes it sexist.

[magic9mushroom]

Because it's not miscarriage. It's giving birth a screaming demon made of hate for its parents,

Okay, miscarriage+.

and it creates a dynamic where sapient people are viewed as breeding stock.

This is always going to happen in literally any RPG with heredity rules. It's a consequence of the emotional disconnect of players.

And the whole "punishing romance with the wrong people" angle, which is racist.

Reality is racist?

There's a lot more complexities than what I had in mind when I wrote that line, but suffice to say, it's sexist too along with all the other unfortunate implications.

You haven't demonstrated this.

It's sexist becuase the female suffers more than the male-he's got his spirit offspring that wants to kill him.

The female just went through nine months of nurturing that spirit, only for it to rip its way out of her, possibly killing her, and if she survives has to deal with having her murderous ghost offspring after her coupled with the depression similar to a parent who suffered a miscarriage or stillbirth, and the trauma of having her own offspring go alien on her.

She gets fracked up a lot worse, is what I'm saying, and since the ghost children were created to enforce the otherwise arbitrary "The People shall not screw the People" rule, it being something that punishes the female makes it sexist.

Sex and reproduction are different for different sexes. This is why they are called sexes. To call that sexist is to call reality sexist.

That aside, is this mention of possible death from one of the splatbooks? Because I don't recall any mention of such in the core book. (Also, the "it always happens" rule means she almost certainly knows it's a spirit baby well before the birth itself.)

[Almarck]

It's different for both sexes of course, but that doesn't change the fact that the writers put Unihar as a consequence in for no other reason than to prevent werewolf-werewolf pairings to justify why werewolves would mate outside their own "culture" as was the Metis from WtA.

Personally, I never thought the Unihar made much sense as the result of all werewolf-werewolf pairings. I mean for one, why are they all automatically hostile to all werewolves and immune to werewolf gifts? In fact, what was the justification they were completely spirit with no shred of humanity?

In short, I felt it was a hamfisted justification that was too deliberately designed to be a consequence for a specfic set of players. It's bad enough werewolves already can maul each other to death if they aren't careful, the Unihar was just over the top.


With changes to the fluff about werewolfism and wolfbloodedness happening spontaneously to just about anyone with no rhyme or reason (except genetics and exposure to a powerful werewolf being the culprit for a number of these cases), I feel that there's no point for it to remain.

[Rater202]

Sex and reproduction are different for different sexes. This is why they are called sexes. To call that sexist is to call reality sexist.

You're misunderstanding the point I'm making.

The writers arbitrarily decided that they did not want Werewolf on Werewolf mating to be a thing.

To enforce their arbitrary decision, they created a creature that was always born from a wolf on wolf miscarriage.

The fact that they specifically chose "automatic miscarriage, plus you're babies ghost wants to murder you" instead of something that would punish both male and female parents equally that's what makes it sexist.

It's not sexist from a Watsonian perspective, it's sexist from a Doylist perspective.

As for the "punish mating with the "wrong" people thing...

Imagine if the Supreme Being(s), creator(s) of the Universe, in whatever form He/She/It/They take, reveal themselves to mortals and declare that they don't like interacial boning, so if somebody tries to have children with someone of a diferant ethnicity, they baby will come out of mama chest burster style, then rapidly grow into a six foot five unkillable murderous psychopath who always goes after daddy as his first victim, well, those supreme beings would be racist as all hell, now wouldn't they.

Same general idea, just in reverse: The writers, or supreme beings of the Game Line, decided they didn't like Werewolf on Werewolf Mating, and set rules in place to punish it. That's what give it a racist implication.

That aside, is this mention of possible death from one of the splatbooks? Because I don't recall any mention of such in the core book. (Also, the "it always happens" rule means she almost certainly knows it's a spirit baby well before the birth itself.)

A Demon Baby tearing itself from the mothers womb tends to cause a few health levels worth of damage. Mother isn't in wolf or hybrid forms when demon baby pops out, she doesn't regenerate it right away. depending on the mothers attributes.

and a pack of young wolves might not know about the spirit children ahead of time

[magic9mushroom]

You're misunderstanding the point I'm making.

The writers arbitrarily decided that they did not want Werewolf on Werewolf mating to be a thing.

To enforce their arbitrary decision, they created a creature that was always born from a wolf on wolf miscarriage.

The fact that they specifically chose "automatic miscarriage, plus you're babies ghost wants to murder you" instead of something that would punish both male and female parents equally that's what makes it sexist.

It's not sexist from a Watsonian perspective, it's sexist from a Doylist perspective.

Baby's ghost wanting to murder you is equally bad for both.

Miscarriage is an RL thing that is made more likely by incest (or a dozen other things). Yes, it's worse for the mother than the father (certain events in my family have made me well aware of this) but including it in an RPG is exactly as sexist as including the concept of gender itself.

As for the "punish mating with the "wrong" people thing...

Imagine if the Supreme Being(s), creator(s) of the Universe, in whatever form He/She/It/They take, reveal themselves to mortals and declare that they don't like interacial boning, so if somebody tries to have children with someone of a diferant ethnicity, they baby will come out of mama chest burster style, then rapidly grow into a six foot five unkillable murderous psychopath who always goes after daddy as his first victim, well, those supreme beings would be racist as all hell, now wouldn't they.

Same general idea, just in reverse: The writers, or supreme beings of the Game Line, decided they didn't like Werewolf on Werewolf Mating, and set rules in place to punish it. That's what give it a racist implication.

Charles II of Spain. Is his existence in reality racist in some fashion?

A Demon Baby tearing itself from the mothers womb tends to cause a few health levels worth of damage. Mother isn't in wolf or hybrid forms when demon baby pops out, she doesn't regenerate it right away. depending on the mothers attributes.

Is this a special rule, or are you saying it does agg damage? In either case, I'd like your source.

and a pack of young wolves might not know about the spirit children ahead of time

Surely anyone who knows about the Oath of the Moon knows the rationale for each tenet. The Oath of the Moon is required to join a tribe, so you're going to have an opportunity to find out.

I guess Ghost Wolves or Pure might not know, but they're hardly the default PCs.

[Rater202]

Baby's ghost wanting to murder you is equally bad for both.

Miscarriage is an RL thing that is made more likely by incest (or a dozen other things). Yes, it's worse for the mother than the father (certain events in my family have made me well aware of this) but including it in an RPG is exactly as sexist as including the concept of gender itself.

No incest is going on though, usually+2 werewolves from opposites sides of the country who have literally no relation between each other beyond Father Wolf and Mother Luna several centuries ago(meaning they're like, 20th cousins at most, so not actually related at all) have a 100% chance of miscarrying: comparativly, if one of those same werewolves had a child with their wolfblooded fist cousin or sibling, they'd have a greater chance of having a healthy child than the two not actuallye related werewolves would.

So that eliminates "incest" as a justification for ghost children

Now, Once again, it's not their existence in universe that's sexist: If the Forsaker were real, then the ghost Children would not be sexist

But the Forsaker are not real: It's an RPG. The writers arbitrarily decided that two werewolves could not mate with each other for raisins. To enforce this decision, the writers declared that two Werewolves boning resulted in the babby being an evil murderous spirit out for it's parents blood.

This hurts the mother more than it hurts the father, because she's not only being punished by the murderous spirit, ashe's being punished by having a miscarriage, and her miscarried baby tearing it's way through her on the way out.

Werwolf Mom gets two punishments while werewolf dad only gets one.

The writers choosing something like that as the punishment for werewolf on werewolf mating is what's sexist-not that miscarriages happen, but that they always happen to a woman when she and her husband/boyfriend commit this sin, but she gets punished twice as bad as her husband/boyfriend

That out of universe choice is what's sexist: If the writers had said something like, oh, Werewolve sexual fluids are horrifically caustic to wereolves of the opposite sex, that wouldn't be sexist.

It's the use of miscarriage as punishment on top of the punishment the werewolf mama shares with her mate that's sexist.

Charles II of Spain. Is his existence in reality racist in some fashion?

No. but, if his family was not horrifically inbred, and his many many disabilities and health issues were solely the result of *Insert Whichever creator you believe in here* arbitrarily decided that two spanish people couldn't have a healthy child together, then *prior being* here would be incredibly racist.

By declaring that two people who are, essentially, only as closely related as any two other members of an ethnic group are, can not have healthy children with each other, you are arbitrarily discriminating against that ethnic group.

That's not what the writers intended, bit it's what came across.

It's not racist in universe, but it's racist out of universe.

Is this a special rule, or are you saying it does agg damage? In either case, I'd like your source.

Have something rip it's way through you're abdomen, shredding muscles and blood vessels. How likely are you to die from shock or bloodloss? If that's not lethal, nothing is, so werewolves would have to spend essence to heal it. You can't spend essence if you're in shock, or unconscious and bleeding out.

Logic dictates that unless they give birth in Garou form, they're going to be in a bad way and may probably die from the injury.

No hard rules, but come on, chunky salsa is in effect.

[SiuiS]

Reality is racist?

Yes.

You haven't demonstrated this.

Several others have. I'll even do it again!

A consequence for one sex over another is sexist.

Sex and reproduction are different for different sexes. This is why they are called sexes. To call that sexist is to call reality sexist.

Roleplaying games made to demonstrate human decisions are not reality. They are reflections of human decision. Ergo, the game shows that the decisions made by the humans, is sexist – favoring or punishing one sex over another.

Baby's ghost wanting to murder you is equally bad for both.

No. Traumatic pregnancy and birth are not bad for the male at all.

Yes, it's worse for the mother than the father

And so choosing to inflict this greater punishment on one sex over another is sexist. You even agree, why are we arguing?

Surely anyone who knows about the Oath of the Moon knows the rationale for each tenet. The Oath of the Moon is required to join a tribe, so you're going to have an opportunity to find out.

I guess Ghost Wolves or Pure might not know, but they're hardly the default PCs.

Every default PC starts out as an unaffiliated wolf. If you're lucky your ST lets you pick a tribe and start there. Many have you actually need to pass initiation.

Also the argument that only a few people won't know, so let's let them get hurt, it's their own fault is a terrible argument.

[comicshorse]

A consequence for one sex over another is sexist.

This does of course mean that by this argument sex is sexist, as only women get pregnant

[Elderand]

This does of course mean that by this argument sex is sexist, as only women get pregnant

Tell that to seahorses

There is a difference between a fact in real life that nobody had any say on the matter and a consequence in a roleplaying game where intelligent designer made a decision.

The first is just **** happens, the second is sexist.

[comicshorse]

The first is just **** happens, the second is sexist.

So reality is racist but not sexist, good to know

[Elderand]

So reality is racist but not sexist, good to know

I never said anything about racism. {scrubbed}

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Is this honestly an argument we're having right now?

I think it stems from an inability to separate in-universe racism/sexism from our-universe racism/sexism from the racism/sexism implicit in the writer's decision to make certain in-universe truths.
It's not just you, it's common. I saw a lengthy set of articles about sexism in video games that defended a lot of it as not being sexist in-universe; like the Asari in Mass Effect. They took the argument that having an entire species of oversexualized women was ok because they weren't really women in-game, ignoring that the designers specifically chose to make them physically resemble cis-women to our eyes. In-universe, not necessarily sexist. Out-of-universe, definitely sexist.

Same issue here. In-universe, Unihar may not be sexist. But the writer who decided to make them a thing, certainly was (if unintentionally)

Edit: one example that I could make to make this difference even more clear;

Imagine I'm a game creator. In my game I want there to be an entire species of beings that devote their lives to menial labour, because their ancestor spirits must atone for past crimes. Like, this is a known fact in-universe. When a new species came, they labour-species attached themselves to the master-species and went around fulfilling all menial labour for that species, even in new planets and things, creating a utopia.
Now imagine I decide that the master-species is going to resemble white humanity, while the labour-species is going to represent the worst stereotype of enslaved blacks.

In-universe, it's not racist. Each of the labour-species constantly has to reaffirm the choice to work menial labour for their masters, and there is no compulsion in the work they do.
Yet out-of-universe, I'm a terrible person, because I decided to make a horribly racist caricature of black people (even though in-universe they're completely unrelated and humans might not even exist).

Or take the Ferengi Problem. Imagine the Ferengi: cunning little bastard species of viciously back-stabbing inter-galactic financiers and bankers. Now imagined I gave them a biiiiig nose and curly hair. In-universe it might not be racist, but my decision to make a gigantic racist Jewish stereotype certainly is.

So this totally relates to the Unihar debate.
In-universe, it wasn't sexist, it just was biological fact, just as saying that cis-women have periods every 28 days or so is biological fact. However, out-of-universe, the decision to make it so IS sexist, because they had an opportunity to treat men and women equally, and decided not to, or it didn't even occur to them.

Edit Edit: And you're taking two people's statements about reality and sexism/racism, meant in different ways, and conflating them. Reality isn't sexist, because in this statement "reality" means purely biological aspects, without societal norms or structures. Reality is racist because in this statement "reality" means the entire world outside of imagination, including societal norms and structures. Just as equally, I can say reality is sexist, taking into account societal norms and structures, or reality isn't racist because race is itself just a social construction and has no meaning outside of societal norms or structures.

[SiuiS]

This does of course mean that by this argument sex is sexist, as only women get pregnant

In a way, yes. That's a different and primarily philosophical conversation though, and I think explaining the rhetoric behind it would confuse matters. I can send you a PM or Email if you'd like?

I never said anything about racism. {scrubbed}

I did! My bad. We are polluting each others' arguments. It's a common trend of Internet discussion. One thread (in the forum sense) with many threads (in the conversational sense) get compressed into one weird disagreement with only two factions. Forcing it into a binary like that makes it weird.

BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE

Appreciate how well you handled that.

I gotta ask though, your face... What's with the break whistle? Are you a union steam driven skeleton? Like, the gears I understand, but the whistle? Or, like, are you a train? Folks gotta get off the tracks when you're chugging down the rails?

Oh, when I zoom in that's not a whistle at all. Well there goes that string of jokes...

[Elderand]

[
I gotta ask though, your face... What's with the break whistle? Are you a union steam driven skeleton? Like, the gears I understand, but the whistle? Or, like, are you a train? Folks gotta get off the tracks when you're chugging down the rails?

Oh, when I zoom in that's not a whistle at all. Well there goes that string of jokes...

Yeah, that doesn't look like a whistle, I think it's a piston to make the jaw move.

[Rater202]

So, apparently Beasts have something about them that triggers other supernaturals to view them more positivly than they'd otherwise be inclined to.

Not automatic trust or friendship or anything that.

[SiuiS]

So, apparently Beasts have something about them that triggers other supernaturals to view them more positivly than they'd otherwise be inclined to.

Not automatic trust or friendship or anything that.

Beast is slowly starting to sound appealing. It's the toolkit splat we never truly had.

Hey Rater, read through Gathering of Mists here on the forum and tell me if that's the sort of game and writing you're interested in.

[Rater202]

Something I forgot to mention, but according to the RPGnet thread, Beasts don't have Sterotypes for Each other, Only for other supernaturals, and there's an entire chapter devoted to crossovers.

I'm eagerly looking forward to it.

Somebody in the Onyxpath forums thread suggested one campaign being a Beast fed up with crime getting some of his supernatural cousins together to deal with it: Vampire Batman, Werewolf Batman, Mage Batman, Changeling Batman, and Beast Batman.

Hey Rater, read through Gathering of Mists here on the forum and tell me if that's the sort of game and writing you're interested in.

Could you point to the specific subforum it's located in, or perhaps provide a link?

[Blackhawk748]

So, apparently Beasts have something about them that triggers other supernaturals to view them more positivly than they'd otherwise be inclined to.

Not automatic trust or friendship or anything that.

I am liking the sound of Beast more and more. Hell i was probably gonna get it just so i could through them at my Hunters, but now i may want to run a Beast game.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

So remember that Neolithic Mage setting that they're doing?

Apparently it's going to be so Neolithic that it's before Irem, before Vampires became anything more than "Strix-possessed corpses", and before the Sundering that split the Spirit world from ours in Werewolf cosmology.

Wow.

It is going to be EPIC.

Edit: Thyrsus are going to KICK serious BUTT. I mean, if there are Spirits freely chilling everywhere, their Spirit powers are going to be ridiculous.
Forces is going to be less electricity and more fire, which is going to change it very much thematically, I think.

Generally, I think there's gonna be a lot less knowledge of what makes a Mage different from an Uratha different from a Sin-Eater.

[Sith_Happens]

Beast is slowly starting to sound appealing. It's the toolkit splat we never truly had.

On the other hand, this newest revelation ups the likelihood by about a factor of 100 that there will be a never-ending plague of annoying players trying to use it as the Mary Sue splat.

[Rater202]

On the other hand, this newest revelation ups the likelihood by about a factor of 100 that there will be a never-ending plague of annoying players trying to use it as the Mary Sue splat.

You get those for every splat.

[Anonymouswizard]

On the other hand, this newest revelation ups the likelihood by about a factor of 100 that there will be a never-ending plague of annoying players trying to use it as the Mary Sue splat.

Idea for a fansplat: Sue: the 'Beloved'.

Although you are an awesome person and everyone who isn't horrible likes you, some people haven't got the message. You have to use the power of Awesomeness (power stat) and Cool (mana stat) to fuel your cliches (powers) and fight back the . Cliches come in the following categories:
-Black Hole (makes you the centre of the story)
-Copy Cat (lets you use the powers of a published NPC)
-Fixing (lets you retcon the game)
-God Mode (increases physical abilities)
-Jerk (increases power as long as you act like a jerk)
-Purity (morality based powers)
-Relationship (makes one specific person 'like' you)
-Sympathy (makes everyone like you)
-Tzu (let's you counter actions)

Let's see if I can get this to work as a parody, although I'll probably use the revised storyteller system with Awesome and Cool as dual power stats and mana reserves.

[Sith_Happens]

You get those for every splat.

Sure, but Beast seems almost tailor-made for it. Not that I'm counting that as a strike against the game, mind you, but be warned.

[Lord Raziere]

Sure, but Beast seems almost tailor-made for it. Not that I'm counting that as a strike against the game, mind you, but be warned.

....I dunno, Changeling: The Lost seems to have already beaten them to the punch on the toolkit mary sue front.

and no, the kidnapping and enduring lots of abuse at the hands of the Gentry does not make any potential Changeling Mary Sue's less sue. such a thing is in fact a common background in fan-fics for Mary Sues as it gives them a "problem" to be hurt over without actually having any problems around them- they are awesome at everything and solve things well but they still cry and whine about how they got abused even while they perfect their lives.

[SiuiS]

On the other hand, this newest revelation ups the likelihood by about a factor of 100 that there will be a never-ending plague of annoying players trying to use it as the Mary Sue splat.

That is not an issue with the book but with people. As Razz said, Changeling already does that, and I vet people I play with before diving in to prevent this sort of issue. I'm 30. I don't need to schedule time to sit down and open my brain ([roll]2d6+2[/roll]) to people I won't benefit from being around.

[Rater202]

Hey Rater, read through Gathering of Mists here on the forum and tell me if that's the sort of game and writing you're interested in.

Changeling Game, yes?

You or someone from that group starting a game and need players? Similar in tone and theme?

Only saw little bit-not much time to read five threads, but what I saw was interesting.

[Sith_Happens]

Changeling already does that

Changeling lets you be an [insert non-Changeling splat here] that's inexplicably different from all the other [aforementioned splat]s and has an aura of "[aforementioned splat]s like me?" This is news to me.

[Rater202]

has an aura of "[aforementioned splat]s like me?"

They don't automatically like you.

It's just they think slightly more positively of you than they'd otherwise be inclined to.

There are leagues of difference between "automatically likes me" and "slightly more likely to like may than they'd normally be inclined".

[Blackhawk748]

This is unrelated to the current conversation, but i need some help. Im running a "Hunter" game (currently the party is a Rahu, a Gangrel and a Hunter. Im calling it the Cancer Cell) and its a "monster of the week" style game. My problem? I cant think of a monster for this weeks game. So anyone think of a cool beasty i can throw at the party? So far they have tangled with some Sabbat, and Witch, a few spirits and The Taken (from Alan Wake)

[Rater202]

This is unrelated to the current conversation, but i need some help. Im running a "Hunter" game (currently the party is a Rahu, a Gangrel and a Hunter. Im calling it the Cancer Cell) and its a "monster of the week" style game. My problem? I cant think of a monster for this weeks game. So anyone think of a cool beasty i can throw at the party? So far they have tangled with some Sabbat, and Witch, a few spirits and The Taken (from Alan Wake)

Slashers are always fun.