[Unchained] Jason Buhlman confirmed Summoner is in for some nerfs

[Bhaakon]

So the next time your DM freaks out about synthesists, play a vivisectionist instead. People love that class because it's so balanced, right guys?

Two different issues, I think. People hate synthesists because it attracts the type of doofus who thinks they can show up to a game with 3/3/3/18/18/18 stat array and not get called on it. Is it super-useful for a summoner to have an 18 Int, Wis, and Cha? Not really, but it still ticks a lot of people off in a way that merely building a strong character doesn't. People will articulate the problem as being one of power, but I think they really just mean that it's cheesy. It's the same reason that a lot of people hate chargers builds, even through they're actually significantly less powerful than a decently run caster. It's a negative aesthetic reaction to a very, very obvious attempt to game the rules system, even if the end result is only modestly impressive. Game balance is, at best, tangentially related.

[squiggit]

It'd certainly help my NAD argument. Evolution Surge needs to stay, though. It's a well designed spell.

Maybe. I like Evolution surge, but I can see how it contributes to problems. It's one of those things where using it to temporarily upgrade your eidolon can be cool and fun, but it also makes the eidolon potentially too flexible when used tangentially.

I actually think Summon Eidolon is one of the worst though. One of the supposed gameplay choices a summoner has to make is whether to keep their eidolon out or abandon their super beatstick so they can pump out minions. Summon Eidolon goes a long way to trivializing that by letting you pull the eidolon back out in one round.

This. The only good, original class to come out of Paizo, and their playerbase is calling for rock bottom nerfs.

I'd say the Alchemist is also pretty cool. I like the Magus too, but it's just pathfinder duskblade so can't really call that original.

[Mithril Leaf]

Maybe. I like Evolution surge, but I can see how it contributes to problems. It's one of those things where using it to temporarily upgrade your eidolon can be cool and fun, but it also makes the eidolon potentially too flexible when used tangentially.

I actually think Summon Eidolon is one of the worst though. One of the supposed gameplay choices a summoner has to make is whether to keep their eidolon out or abandon their super beatstick so they can pump out minions. Summon Eidolon goes a long way to trivializing that by letting you pull the eidolon back out in one round.


I'd say the Alchemist is also pretty cool. I like the Magus too, but it's just pathfinder duskblade so can't really call that original.

Bloodrager and Skald are both sort of nifty although they're really just Barbarian and Bard ACFs,

[Psyren]

Barbarian is a Bloodrager ACF

[thompur]

Am I the only one who thinks that they should do away with spells for the Summoner and Witch, and give them more interesting class features of the SLA and SNA quality? Also, tie the Eidolon's abilities more closely to the Summoner itself. Juat spitballi'n here, but maybe have its physical stats more directly linked to the Summoner's mental stats or health. Just a thought...

[Milo v3]

Not sure if everyones seen this already but I just found this today. In part of it they describe some of the things that'll happen with the classes (I love the skill thing), including a description on stuff for the summoner.

[Snowbluff]

Not sure if everyones seen this already but I just found this today. In part of it they describe some of the things that'll happen with the classes (I love the skill thing), including a description on stuff for the summoner.

*flips table internet*

I can't read this! It's in some form of sonic code. It's encrypted in such a way that I can't use control-f to mine information!

[Squirrel_Dude]

Not sure if everyones seen this already but I just found this today. In part of it they describe some of the things that'll happen with the classes (I love the skill thing), including a description on stuff for the summoner.

"The Pathfinder Strategy guide, coming out this december." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, that book. It shouldn't need to exist.

My favorite comments about the Barbarian were the ones about how they're getting temporary hit points instead of all the constitution math, with the added benefit of not having Barbarians die when they hit 0 hitpoints and drop out of rage. You know, that thing they didn't do before Paizo screwed things up. I do like the comments about decreasing the number of rage powers/+x bonuses, and replacing them with things like "gain a swim speed during rage."

On the Summoner comments: I like the idea of forcing the choice of a suite of abilities for eidolons at level 1 as a concept, but I don't trust the implementation to go well. At least not in a way where certain outsider choices are obviously better than others. In that case you would just be losing the current build-your-own monster for little balance benefit. It also sounds like it would make eidolons less interesting/unique as their own "type" of creature, and turn them into just a superior, generic, summoned monster. Also "If we do the summoner right, [Pathfinder Society] might force people to change. Hahahahaha."

Their discussion about magic items sounds like Weapon of Legacy, but extended to all magic items. Sounds like a decent idea.

[Bhaakon]

My favorite comments about the Barbarian were the ones about how they're getting temporary hit points instead of all the constitution math, with the added benefit of not having Barbarians die when they hit 0 hitpoints and drop out of rage. You know, that thing they didn't do before Paizo screwed things up.

Isn't that a purposeful throwback to 2nd edition? I'm not entirely sure, but I recall berserkers dying in that manner in Baldur's Gate if they weren't careful.

[the_david]

My favorite comments about the Barbarian were the ones about how they're getting temporary hit points instead of all the constitution math, with the added benefit of not having Barbarians die when they hit 0 hitpoints and drop out of rage. You know, that thing they didn't do before Paizo screwed things up.

You mean like they did in D&D 3.5, right?

The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.)

[georgie_leech]

You mean like they did in D&D 3.5, right?

When the Rage ends. 3.5 Barbarians rage for the full duration, while Pathfinder Barbarians drop out when they go unconscious, i.e. when they go below 0.

[NightbringerGGZ]

*flips table internet*

I can't read this! It's in some form of sonic code. It's encrypted in such a way that I can't use control-f to mine information!

Summary for those who can't interpret the code:

1. RogueEidelon needs a watch or somebody who can show him how to use a day planner app on his phone.

2. Advanced Class Guide - It's out. Buy it please.

3. Monster Codex - Focuses on 20 iconic monsters, provides lore & ecology data. New mechanics for each monster. 9 pages of stat blocks for each monster. Feats, spells and archetypes aren't restricted to particular monsters. New templates that add partial class features instead of full class levels.

4. Strategy Guide - Intended for new players. Nothing for us here.

5. Pathfinder Unchained - Out in April!

• Playing with the Action Economy.
• Rogue gets new conditions that it can apply to targets it sneak attacks. Hamper: Halves the targets speed for a round, target can't take 5-Foot Steps.
• Rogue has a way to weaken opponents defences, gaining +4 to hit (allies get +2)
• Rogue & Barbarian Talents being reviewed and updated.
• Barbarian won't require a bunch of math when you rage. Temporary HP bonuses.
• Rage Powers will be less complicated, won't have usage limits. Instead you'll get a suite of powers which last the entire Rage.
• Monk is bumped to full BAB. You get a suite of class features you can pick from. Some existing class features can be picked up at earlier levels.
• Summoner will retain the concept. When you pick your Eidolon you pick an Outsider type which is the chasis for your critter. This choice will restrict the Evolutions you can add on.
• Tactics & Fatigue System. Intended for martial classes. You gain a Fatigue Pool which refreshes inbetween combats.
• You gain special abilities in combat which burn Fatigue. Combat Feats will determine what you can do. For instance, burn Fatigue to deal extra damage on a Power Attack.
• Based on BAB Bonus & Con modifier.
• Takes some time to recover Fatigue, which is intended to balance against spell durations. Do you wait and recover Fatigue & lose time on a buff spell?
• New system for spell components. Each school of magic will have a material component. Casting spells without this item causes spells to be less powerful. Special components will make spells more powerful.
• System for magic items to make them leveling/scaling.
• New system for making monsters from scratch. Pick a monster theme, you'll have final numbers pregenerated and then can add a few options on top of it. Intended to help you create custom monsters much quicker.
• Class adjustments are not full rebuilds, rather the book modifies existing class features.
• 256 Pages, No Playtest. Plenty of complaints on Paizo forums.

6. Occult Adventures - Coming Summer 2015. Psychic Magic classes. Go look at the play test.

Q&A
1. How will Unchained affect PFS?
A. We won't know until after launch.

2. Since Unchained will fix clases, will Unchained be the new default?
A. No. They don't want to force people to use Unchained or create a divide in the community. Trap Sense replaced by Danager Sense, much more awesome ability.

3. Will Unchained Classes negate Archetypes?
A. Hopefully not. New abilities are treated as the old ones for feats/rules which play off them. Might make some archetypes less powerful.

4. Anything to expand skills?
A. A lot was done with skills. Every class gets their normal Class Skills as Adventuring Skills, but also get 2 points to spend on RP skills (Craft, Proff, Lore).

5. There will be new Crafting rules for mundane items. Also a new system to make magic crafting mechanics more fun.

[Snowbluff]

Thank you!

Having archetypes remain playable with the new classes would be ideal. Another good thing would be if these options were freely available in PFS.

Summoner changes sounds like the crummy prebuilt eidolons. It's as we feared. The only responsible action is arson.

Fatigue rules sound interesting, but everyone knows that buffs are better. Additionally, not a lot of people like 4e. PF continues it's trend of following 4e by adding a new short rest system.

PF adds the special spell components from 3.5, and enforces the god-awful spell component rules by making them worse. Grod's Law blah blah blah.

Scaling magic items are something I'm excited for, but I'd prefer it if they just scrapped most of the standard ones and rolled them into stats.

Monster builder isn't as exciting when you remember the race builder.

Lack of playtest? Fine with me. I think the number of complaints is small compared to the potential problems releasing this material before it's ready would cause.

[Milo v3]

Summoner changes sounds like the crummy prebuilt eidolons. It's as we feared. The only responsible action is arson.

To me, it doesn't sound like prebuilt eidolons, more themed eidolons. If you pick demon, you don't get smite good or whatever, if you pick Qllipoth (or however it's spelt) you might be able to get a madness ability at high levels, etc.

Also, missed in the list is that the video mentions people having to pick a number of offensive and defensive evolutions, to stop people from making giant eidolons with a billion attacks.

PF adds the special spell components from 3.5, and enforces the god-awful spell component rules by making them worse. Grod's Law blah blah blah.

This is mitigated in my view by the fact they clarify that each School will have a component, rather than having a component for each spell.

[Snowbluff]

To me, it doesn't sound like prebuilt eidolons, more themed eidolons. If you pick demon, you don't get smite good or whatever, if you pick Qllipoth (or however it's spelt) you might be able to get a madness ability at high levels, etc.

We don't get smite good, anyway. So this might be good, except these are tied to base forms limiting customization. It should be based on your alignment instead or something. For example, only good summoners can put smite evil on their eidolon. Chaotic ones get madness. Etc. You know what that means? It's crappy because the alignment system makes more sense here.

Also, missed in the list is that the video mentions people having to pick a number of offensive and defensive evolutions, to stop people from making giant eidolons with a billion attacks.

Oh, you mean like the max attacks stat on the current eidolon?

This is mitigated in my view by the fact they clarify that each School will have a component, rather than having a component for each spell.

1 component pouch -> 9(?) components.

[Psyren]

The new rogue sounds like it'll have a much easier time landing attacks and using maneuvers, so I'm excited about that. +4 is a big deal especially once you add in flanking, unseen and the other bonuses they can get. By itself that almost gets them to full BAB; the bonus for allies is icing on the cake.

Loving the "fatigue pool resource" idea.

It'll be hard to have an opinion on Summoner until we know specifics. Worst case scenario, if they don't fix it enough or the new version does truly become useless (unlikely but possible), it will just remain banned or houseruled at the same tables it is now.

Barb 2.0 sounds like it will simultaneously be stronger and easier to use.

[Snowbluff]

The new rogue sounds like it'll have a much easier time landing attacks and using maneuvers, so I'm excited about that. +4 is a big deal especially once you add in flanking, unseen and the other bonuses they can get. By itself that almost gets them to full BAB; the bonus for allies is icing on the cake.

+4 on sneak attacks? Yeah, that sounds pretty helpful.

Wait, whose rogues can't hit anything? Dex is a god stat, you only attack when you are getting an advantage to hit, and you don't precision damage rather than power attack. o.0

[squiggit]

Everything actually sounds kind of neat.

Except for the Summoner changes. My prediction was that the changes will make the summoner more boring to a greater degree than more balanced and making eidolon options more restrictive does just that.

Eh. We'll see how it turns out.

[Bhaakon]

Except for the Summoner changes. My prediction was that the changes will make the summoner more boring to a greater degree than more balanced and making eidolon options more restrictive does just that.

I don't see how they could fix the bookkeeping nightmare and stepping on toes complaints without severely restricting eidolon evolutions. Half the summoner complaints boil down to "the eidolon is way too versatile," which is what makes it both interesting and problematic.

[squiggit]

I don't see how they could fix the bookkeeping nightmare and stepping on toes complaints without severely restricting eidolon evolutions. Half the summoner complaints boil down to "the eidolon is way too versatile," which is what makes it both interesting and problematic.

You reduce on the fly versatility by messing with evolution surge and expand sample eidolons for players who want an easier package. You don't strip versatility out completely into neatly prepackaged boxes when that's the best part of the class' design. This helps DMs and Players who don't want to deal with bookkeeping issues without punishing people who like flexible classes because they're flexible.

Would you feel the same way if Unchained made Sorcerer bloodlines pick every spell for them?

[PsyBomb]

You reduce on the fly versatility by messing with evolution surge and expand sample eidolons for players who want an easier package. You don't strip versatility out completely into neatly prepackaged boxes when that's the best part of the class' design. This helps DMs and Players who don't want to deal with bookkeeping issues without punishing people who like flexible classes because they're flexible.

Would you feel the same way if Unchained made Sorcerer bloodlines pick every spell for them?

Being flexible is awesome. Being better than the Fighter at melee, while ALSO being better than the rogue at skills at the same time, while being one class ability (out of three good ones) of the actual character? Not so much.

I'm all for nerfing the Summoner, although I think I'd go about it slightly differently than most. Their main deal is the Eidolon, after all, and being able to make awesome Eidolons is part and parcel of making it a good class. The trick is to dial back the Summon Monster SLA and Spellcasting to the point where Eidolon teamwork is the main deal. The limit to Offensive Evolutions plus some retuning of certain ones (Skilled is a big offender) will do that.

Well, either that, or make the default into a Synthesist that drops full-replacement of the physical stats for a modifier equal to the Eidolon's stat minus 10. That would be fair, fun, and to the point of the original idea (which was to "play the monster"). Also need to iron out that spell list, though...

[squiggit]

Being flexible is awesome. Being better than the Fighter at melee, while ALSO being better than the rogue at skills at the same time, while being one class ability (out of three good ones) of the actual character? Not so much.

On its own restricting what your eidolon can do doesn't stop it from being a better beatstick than the fighter. Unless the "fighter" eidolon is ****ty... but again, that has nothing to do in and of itself with putting them into categories and more to do with the numbers being worse.

That's my issue. You're right. Summoners are problematic, but this change is tangential at best to fixing their issues.

What makes the summoner as is cool? You have the best companion pet in the game, it's both strong and flexible and can be realized a dozen different ways and the core class itself has a kit themed around supporting said beastie (and summoning other beasties).

What makes the summoner problematic? The companion pet is as strong as some of the weaker PC classes and deals a ton of damage. The core summoner itself on top of that is not a pushover, with a great spell list and good class features and medium BAB, making it a decent character even without the eidolon.

Take all that together and I don't see how "Pick a prepackaged eidolon at chargen" fits anywhere into it as a good solution.

[Bhaakon]

You reduce on the fly versatility by messing with evolution surge and expand sample eidolons for players who want an easier package. You don't strip versatility out completely into neatly prepackaged boxes when that's the best part of the class' design.

Or the worst, depending on your group. One of the reasons that so many people play class-based games over more free-form systems is ease of use. That's important to a lot of people who don't want to sit around calculating point-buy abilities for hours at character creation. One player's dream is another's nightmare. The versatility of the summoner is both the best and worst aspect of the class.

This helps DMs and Players who don't want to deal with bookkeeping issues without punishing people who like flexible classes because they're flexible.

Isn't that what they're doing?

The previous version of summoner isn't going anywhere. If your GM is OK with bookkeeping, it's still there. If it gives your GM headaches, there's the new version with selections limited by a thematic choice at character generation.

[PsyBomb]

On its own restricting what your eidolon can do doesn't stop it from being a better beatstick than the fighter. Unless the "fighter" eidolon is ****ty... but again, that has nothing to do in and of itself with putting them into categories and more to do with the numbers being worse.

That's my issue. You're right. Summoners are problematic, but this change is tangential at best to fixing their issues.

What makes the summoner as is cool? You have the best companion pet in the game, it's both strong and flexible and can be realized a dozen different ways and the core class itself has a kit themed around supporting said beastie (and summoning other beasties).

What makes the summoner problematic? The companion pet is as strong as some of the weaker PC classes and deals a ton of damage. The core summoner itself on top of that is not a pushover, with a great spell list and good class features and medium BAB, making it a decent character even without the eidolon.

Take all that together and I don't see how "Pick a prepackaged eidolon at chargen" fits anywhere into it as a good solution.

I agree with all points, which is why my proposed solution doesn't include prepackaging Eidolons. SO, for better resolution on what I'd like to see...

1) If this guy is going to be a 9th-level caster, make him 9th. If he's going to be 6th, then do away with the pseudo-9th casting. Either way, remove the Summon Eidolon spell, it just exists to let them cheese their own supposed limits
2) Rebalance or remove certain problematic Evolutions. Skilled and certain attacks need new point values, for example. Pounce can probably be unrestricted to be allowed on all forms if the offensive evolution limit thing is enforced.
3) The Summon Monster SLA badly needs to be nerfed into the ground. My recommendation: make it summon ONE monster at a time with all other current restrictions.
4) Unlike most, I think that Evolution Surge needs to stay. It is too integral to the playstyle of the class, and is their "ohcrap" button.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Something I wish was asked of the rules team on that panel, and something that they didn't mention is whether or not they were going to use Unchained as an opportunity to not just rework classes, and apparently also magic itmes, but also some of the more basic building blocks of characters, like feats and spells.

[PsyBomb]

Something I wish was asked of the rules team on that panel, and something that they didn't mention is whether or not they were going to use Unchained as an opportunity to not just rework classes, and apparently also magic itmes, but also some of the more basic building blocks of characters, like feats and spells.

Tangentially, the Fatigue system seems to be built off of stronger use of combat feats and the like from what they said. I'm imagining a system where burning Fatigue turns them into Mythic versions of themselves sans the MP activations for X amount of time (probably either a round or round/level). Just need to figure out how many points you might have, and what the consequences are for burning them.

[Blackhawk748]

Tangentially, the Fatigue system seems to be built off of stronger use of combat feats and the like from what they said. I'm imagining a system where burning Fatigue turns them into Mythic versions of themselves sans the MP activations for X amount of time (probably either a round or round/level). Just need to figure out how many points you might have, and what the consequences are for burning them.

I see it this way: Its either gonna suck really really hard, or someone on the Paizo forum is gonna scream OP and they are gonna release an Errata nerf. Now with that said i hope they dont muck it up as it would be nice to have Martial characters at least near Casters, without going into PoW

[Milo v3]

Something I wish was asked of the rules team on that panel, and something that they didn't mention is whether or not they were going to use Unchained as an opportunity to not just rework classes, and apparently also magic itmes, but also some of the more basic building blocks of characters, like feats and spells.

Well, they did say they were doing stuff with skills like the new Lore skill and the separation of backgroundy skills and adventurer skills.

[Snowbluff]

More skills sounds like a craptacular idea. Lore sounds even worse, when we have too many knowledge skills already. If there were only 5 like there should be, it wouldn't be an issue.

On its own restricting what your eidolon can do doesn't stop it from being a better beatstick than the fighter. Unless the "fighter" eidolon is ****ty... but again, that has nothing to do in and of itself with putting them into categories and more to do with the numbers being worse.
...

Take all that together and I don't see how "Pick a prepackaged eidolon at chargen" fits anywhere into it as a good solution.

I agree with this.

Honestly, if Eidolons are outskilling rogues, maybe rogues are the problem? The rogues that are getting fixed, right? I think a good metric for all of the other classes would be if they make them worth it compared to an eidolon.

[Milo v3]

More skills sounds like a craptacular idea. Lore sounds even worse, when we have too many knowledge skills already. If there were only 5 like there should be, it wouldn't be an issue.

I like Lore, means you can be an expert in X without knowing Everything that might be tangentially related to X.