Bard vs Figher/Rogue/Sorcerer

[Icewalker]

Elan Vs. Nale

The statistic differences between a bard and a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer


First check, level 9 (9th, and 3rd/3rd/3rd, respectively)

Bard (Elan)
At ninth level, a bard has:

• BAB +6
• Saves +3/+6/+6
• Loads of Bardic Music as 9th level bard (countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness)
• Bardic Knowledge
• a few spells, up to 3rd level
• Suggestion

Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer (Nale)
At 3rd/3rd/3rd level, a fighter/rogue/sorcerer has:

• BAB +6
• Saves +5/+5/+5
• 2 fighter bonus feats
• trapfinding and trapsense +1
• Sneak Attack +2d6
• Evasion
• A famailiar (You know, we haven't seen Nale with a familiar...hmmm)
• Many and more varied spells, but only to 2nd level
• Specialization in enchantment spells

whos better? I'm going to add the comparison between a 18 and a 6/6/6 soon as well.

[Icewalker]

level 18 bard vs level 6/6/6 fighter/rogue/sorcerer:

Bard (Elan)

• BAB +13
• Saves +6/+11/+11
• LOADS of Bardic music: countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, suggestion, inspire greatness, song of freedom, inspire heroics, mass suggestion, inspire courage +3
• Bardic knowledge
• Some spells, up to 6th level

Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer (Nale)

• BAB +13
• Saves +9/+9/+9
• 4 fighter bonus feats
• Sneak Attack +3d6
• Evasion
• Uncanny Dodge
• trapfinding and trapsense +2
• A familiar
• A large number of spells, only up to 3rd level
• specialization in enchantment spells

[Solo]

Straight bard. Multiclassing makes you rather weak, and you get XP penalties unless you manage things carefully.

[Icewalker]

I think Nale can pull off careful level management, so I wouldn't worry about that one.

But yeah, looks like Elan would be superior. Especially now that he's taking dashing swordsman.

Then again, those figher bonus feats look like they could tip the tables. An extra 4 feats, as well as a +3d6 sneak attack? I dunno...

[The Viking]

Didn't Elan take a level in wizard as well as Dashing Swordsman, though?

[Icewalker]

Nah, he decided not to take wizard.

[Ariko]

No, he started to, then got into the dispute with V that led to Elan crying, v feeling horrible, and Elan ultimately deciding not to take wizard levels after making up with V.

Aww, icewalker beat me to it

[happyturtle]

Esp after V told him how wizards were all serious and never laughed. Too much of a downer.

[factotum]

Nale doesn't necessarily need to have even levels in all 3 of his classes, though, does he? Perhaps some other combination of levels provides a more powerful end result.

[EvilElitest]

Bear in mind, that their is one thing that give Nale an advantage. Brains

Look at the last brother fight

Nale was not at all ready for Elan as it was, being unprepared for his dramatic entrence as well with Sabrein +Haley hostility. As it was, he was unable to think of an advanced tatic, though he did prettty good on his feet.
He also was armed with a dagger, rather than his +3 sword, and was wearing no armor, and has uses up one of his spells prior to the fight, maybe more if he tried to increase his charm around Haley.
Elan has a magical rapier and a level in Dashing swordsmen, while Nale was unprepared for him.
Nale almost won regardless.
I think Nale will defeat Elan without help, simple because he is smart
from,
EE

[Skydiving_Ninja]

Um...Nale's able to cast Suggesstion, so he's a lv. 6 sorc at least.

[happyturtle]

The main advantage Elan has over Nale is loyal friends. Right now, Nale only has two companions, and one of them is friendly to Elan.

[StudlyDuck]

Most of a bard's abilities are intended for support. In a 1 on 1 fight, he can't use a lot of his best abilities.

[warmachine]

Don't forget weapon and armour proficencies, in particular, effective proficencies due to arcane spell failure. Also skill points and HP.

Bard 9

• All simple weapons, longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip.
• Light armour and no shield (otherwise chance of arcane spell failure).
• 72 + 12xINT skill points.
• 6 + 8d6 (avg 34) + 9xCON

Rogue 3/Fighter 3/Sorcerer 3

• All simple and martial weapons, including greatsword and longbow.
• Braces only (otherwise chance of arcane spell failure).
• 60 + 12xINT skill points (starting with Rogue).
• 6 + 2d6 + 3d10 + 3d4 (avg 37 starting with Rogue) + 9xCON

Stats aren't known, mind you. Obviously, Nale is wearing a chain shirt to keep Evasion but runs a 20% spell failure, which is why he barely uses them. Also, Sorcerer 3 doesn't grant 2nd level spells.

I'm going with the Bard build. OotS is a high magic fantasy world and the higher the level of spell, the better.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, you have 2nd level spells at sor3. Hell, you have 2nd level spells at sor1...

[warmachine]

Yeah, you have 2nd level spells at sor3. Hell, you have 2nd level spells at sor1...

Normally casting 2nd level spells at Sorcerer level 1? Does that sound vaguely plausible? Well, SRD entry for Sorcerers states that level 3 Sorcerers can't do it, let alone level 1. Unless you mean off scrolls but that's a costly and unreliable way to cast spells.

[Icewalker]

Oh, damnit, you're right, I was just seeing first two in the chart, forgot they were cantrips...

[Khoran]

Stats aren't known, mind you. Obviously, Nale is wearing a chain shirt to keep Evasion but runs a 20% spell failure

Now, perhaps I am being presuptuous, but I would imagine that by now Nale has been able to pick up a Mithril Chain Shirt at level 9, which would take him down to a 10% Spell Failure.

[Oxymoron]

I wonder if Nale takes a prestige class to compensate, perhaps the Crimson Stabber? Whenever he makes a sarcastic comment in combat, he adds his cha bonus to att and dmg.

[Nightmarenny]

Also take into account states and fighting style.

Assumingly they should have the same ability scores physically.

So assuming something like

9 Str
14 Dex
10 con

Elan has a Rapier and probably has finese
Nale uses a Long sword and armor.

[Jawajoey]

Bear in mind, that their is one thing that give Nale an advantage. Brains

Look at the last brother fight

Nale was not at all ready for Elan as it was, being unprepared for his dramatic entrence as well with Sabrein +Haley hostility. As it was, he was unable to think of an advanced tatic, though he did prettty good on his feet.
He also was armed with a dagger, rather than his +3 sword, and was wearing no armor, and has uses up one of his spells prior to the fight, maybe more if he tried to increase his charm around Haley.
Elan has a magical rapier and a level in Dashing swordsmen, while Nale was unprepared for him.
Nale almost won regardless.
I think Nale will defeat Elan without help, simple because he is smart
from,
EE

I wouldn't say that Nale almost won. Elan clearly and strongly won the battle, although Nale was still quite well enough and clever enough to get out of total defeat. He was quick enough to do the Haley deception, then get out of there, to come back with Sabine to help fight Elan.

So yeah, Nale still has his advantage of tactical intelligence (even stalling Sabine at the right moment was both wise and cleverly done). Not that he doesn't have problems with his tactics. Arrogance being one flaw, and stupid overthinking being his flaw for fights prepared in advance (think about it, that fight was Nale at his smartest, until V came and out clevered him by exploiting his weakness.

If Nale was prepared, ie with all his real gear and a proper weapon, and if he had not been surprised and unprepared for Elan to be competent in a melee, he wouldn't have been beaten quite so soundly.

And I think, now that Elan is dashing swordsman, Elan has the strict combat advantage, but weighing in Nale's intelligence, I think it's an about even fight.

Straight Bard vs Nale, though, that depends largely on how much Nale's faults come into play. If they don't, then Nale wins.

[ocato]

Well, the fighter levels make this iffy. If you consider that the L9 Nale might've hit 4th level fighter for that nifty bonus feat +damage, he is probably going to be able to use his sword well. Imagine all of the +to your weapon of choice fighter feats coupled with sneak attack.

He just doesn't cast any spells really. The fact that he cast suggestion reminds us he's probably higher than a total L9. I'd be hardpressed to see him below L10 because we know the some of the other OotS members are closer to 15. V was casting mass spells on 13 guys. Assuming Nale is about L13 or 14 is probably a safer bet than 9. I think casting suggestion was a situation of plot > rules. Face it, if Nale was able to cast 3rd level spells he'd have 6 levels in Sorcerer and have access to fireball and lightning bolt and a cadre of other very useful spells. I just cannot see Nale not wailing on Elan with all sorts of debuffs and evocations if he could get away with it. He's a sorcerer so it isn't like he has restricted schools.

But still, it seems like Nale is probably a L4 fighter, L6 sorcerer, and L3-4 rogue. He just has Multiple Attribute Disorder and his charisma is so-so at best. That'd limit his spells but... why'd he go so far into sorcerer if its his last ditch extra ability? Probably to bring it up to par with the fighter and rogue stuff. If he has weapon focus/specialization etc etc and a good sneak attack, his one-shot on elan is pretty feasible with a crit. And by "specialization in enchantment spells" he means "My charisma limits my spell list so I just bring a wizard along for the chud work, like buffing and shooting lightning."

That seems reasonable. So he's probably got Elan's number in a straight equal level Bard vs. Fighter/rogue/sorcerer melee fight, but the dashing swordsman probably bridges the gap somewhat. That and Elan's lack of use of his spells is almost criminal. 18 Charisma man! Cast good hope or shout or something!

[Icewalker]

Why do you think he has a low charisma? I'd say Nale's charisma is quite high, he's a very loquacious and cunning guy, although his plans are a bit stale, as V points out just before lighting bolting him.

[Luklan]

A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance

This is the only thing that Elan never seems to take advantage of. It's as if he...

... Okay, could any of you imagine it being perfectly within Elan's capabilities to forget they were now in D&D 3.5, and not 3.0, as from the very first episode? Kinda off topic there, but the fact he never use any of his spells, when bard's get some very useful buffs, makes me think maybe he forgets he can cast them in light armour...

Spells like Displacement, Rainbow Pattern or if he can cast it, Greater Heroism, would really turn the tables on Nale, far more than a few lvl 3 sorcerer spells, that couldn't be cast without that chance of arcane failure. And if Nale doesn't wear armour, that's a little more in Elan's favour.

Feats wouldn't make up for a spell like Greater Heroism (the creature gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, immunity to fear effects, and temporary hit points equal to your caster level), or Greater Invisibility.



Of course, since Elan never uses them, the point is moot, and I think the fight would be a lot more even. Without Plot getting in the way, I think Elan would win the fight anyway. Despite the fact he fell for a suggestion spell, I beleive he has higher saving throws as well, and since he's far freer to wear armour, he's better off there than Nale is.

Also, remember, the more Sorcerer levels Nale has, the more incompetent in a fight he becomes. He doesn't seem that bad, so I presume he's on par with Elan, rather than having a load more sorc levels or whatever.

[Bogardan_Mage]

This is the only thing that Elan never seems to take advantage of.

Isn't that what his chain shirt is? My knowledge of D&D isn't quite what it could be, but considering it appeared on him as part of the 3.5 upgrade...

Oh, and Nale's multiclassing does give him one thing that he wouldn't have if he were a bard. It lets him be Lawful Evil, as he tells Roy when honouring his contract with Xykon.

[happyturtle]

If Nale was prepared, ie with all his real gear and a proper weapon, and if he had not been surprised and unprepared for Elan to be competent in a melee, he wouldn't have been beaten quite so soundly.

But if Nale was prepared, he might have needlessly complicated things and made it even worse.

[holywhippet]

At high levels a bard can be very dangerous fighter thanks to their spell casting. A combination of stoneskin and Tensor's transformation (just called transformation in 3rd edition AFAIK) means you have a fighter who enters combat immune to physical damage and with a long of combat skills. As noted though, Elan seems to have no spellcasting ability or at least none he demonstrates.

It's worth noting that both Bard and Sorceror are supposed to require your character to have some kind of special ancestry (generally you are supposed to be descended from a dragon). It makes me wonder about the two brother's lineage.

[nocker]

At high levels a bard can be very dangerous fighter thanks to their spell casting. A combination of stoneskin and Tensor's transformation (just called transformation in 3rd edition AFAIK) means you have a fighter who enters combat immune to physical damage and with a long of combat skills. As noted though, Elan seems to have no spellcasting ability or at least none he demonstrates.

It's worth noting that both Bard and Sorceror are supposed to require your character to have some kind of special ancestry (generally you are supposed to be descended from a dragon). It makes me wonder about the two brother's lineage.

Er...

I can't find a single correct fact in this post.

[nocker]

Elan Vs. Nale

The statistic differences between a bard and a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer
whos better? I'm going to add the comparison between a 18 and a 6/6/6 soon as well.

(snipped descriptions)

One thing you should note is that Nale's probably not exactly balanced on his multiclassing, since he cast suggestion during the climatic fight with Elan. As this is a 3rd level enchantment, he'd need to be level 18 already.

An "efficient" way to do his multiclassing (efficient quoted because, hey, this is Nale we're talking about) is something like Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Sorcerer X. This way he gets 2 fighter bonus feats, +2d6 sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, lots of skills (specially if his first level is rogue) and then sorcerer spellcasting up to level 15 (by level 20) which would mean 7th level spells.

BAB and hitpoints would be worse than a equally split multiclass, but nothing he can't "fix" with transformation, greater heroism and such.

Of course, since this is Nale, he probably went for fighter 4, for the weapon specialization...

[ocato]

Suggestion is a 3rd level spell for Sorcerers, so he only needs 6 levels in sorcerer, though I agree that he is probably more heavily stacked in sorcerer than fighter or rogue if he cast suggestion.

I didn't mean to say he had low charisma, I believe he has mid-range charisma, maybe 14-16. If you think about it, he usually uses his wits more than his charm, unlike Elan who does the opposite. Nale got huge bonuses to charisma based checks against Roy (who was going to ignore him anyway), Belkar and V have atrocious charisma anyway, and if he was wooing, Haley would've swooned at "you got a perty face thar lady."

Nale's spell list is an enigma, to be honest. It seemed a modest charisma was the only explanation for him shunning most buffing and direct damage spells, both of which would be seriously useful in those rare direct fights he engages in.