Erfworld 45 (Page 41)

[Erk]

Setting an ambush for Ansom and the Arkenpliers doesn't require perfect control over Jillian. They've let her go before (though perhaps by allowing her to escape rather than blatantly flying her out) and the Lookamancers should be able to work out where she'll meet up with Ansom, who is predictable in flying to her rescue. So why wasn't it tried before?

First thing that comes to my mind is "he's never been so close to their main force". Second thing is "they may never have had any easy access to him". Third is "how do we know they haven't tried?"

but if they lay an ambush for him and it fails, they never get the chance again. Wanda, knowing Stanley would jump at the chance for the pliers, likely didn't mention the possibility until she was ready for it.

[JannaM]

DOes anyone else notice that the school girl outfit is a refrence to the lesbian band Tatu.

Or it's just a less-than-subtle way of integrating phallic symbols into a "butch" style of outfit.

[happyturtle]

but if they lay an ambush for him and it fails, they never get the chance again. Wanda, knowing Stanley would jump at the chance for the pliers, likely didn't mention the possibility until she was ready for it.

Good point, that, though I wonder how Stanley was talked into letting her go before. To let Jillian gather more intel perhaps?

But of course, it's not Wanda's plan, is it? It's Parson's plan. So it couldn't have been used until he was there to 'suggest' it.

[Erk]

Honestly, don't go swiping all the credit from Parson until we have seen him actually command a battle. The greatest battle concept in the world can fall apart with a crappy plan or a commander who can't adjust to fit changes in the field. That is probably one of the many things Wanda was waiting for... a commander who would make sure her goodness-knows-how-long of planning would not be wasted on a botched ambush run by a Warlord not worth his upkeep.

I don't think Wanda is refering to "parson's plan" as setting and launching an ambush, but rather the specifics of how that ambush is run.

[SteveMB]

Also, I continue to mock all you people that think that Jillian and Wanda "love" each other.

They.
Are.
Enemies.

This has no love. Jillian has been brainwashed and Wanda is exploiting that.

Case closed. The eroticism, the friendly patter, even the implied sexual relations... all noise. If Jillian was of her right mind she would try and kill Wanda and Wanda will kill Jillian as soon as her usefullness ends.

I agree that Wanda doesn't feel what a normal person would consider "love", but think that some emotional bond is likely. On the other hand, I think if it came to a choice between Jillian's life and Wanda's interests, the latter would probably win.

On the gripping hand, why would her usefulness end? As a mercenary, she could angle to get herself hired by whoever Wanda considered the most dangerous enemy, even after the current war is over. If the "grooming as a figurehead queen" theory is correct, then Jillian would be useful indefinitely.

Moreover, it HAS been stated in the comic that Wanda's control over Jillian is something that didn't exist before now. If Wanda already had control over Jillian to this degree in the past, Jillian would not have suggested they escape together. The Jillian we see in 40 is not the Jillian that was hanging on the wall in 30. I think it is good that things like that aren't spelled out in baby words for us. It's all there and quite simple to pick up by reading the comic in one sitting.

I don't recall that being "stated in the comic", but I agree that that's the most plausible read of the clues we've been given. As for Jillian's "very easy way" idea, my read is that she had already formed a rather strong emotional bond to Wanda (though not quite to the point where Wanda could consider her work done -- as I posited on another thread, Wanda may have thought that the "easy way" request was the sign she was waiting for, until Jillian amended it).

Setting an ambush for Ansom and the Arkenpliers doesn't require perfect control over Jillian.

True, but it's easier if Wanda has enough control to (at least) impede Jillian's fighting or (at best) effectively prevent her from figthing at all (fighting for Stanley is evidently not a possibility, given Wanda's comments on the limits of her control).

Edit:

They've let her go before (though perhaps by allowing her to escape rather than blatantly flying her out) and the Lookamancers should be able to work out where she'll meet up with Ansom, who is predictable in flying to her rescue. So why wasn't it tried before?

Hmmm... it seems to me that a lot depends on just how many times she's been captured and escaped/released. The first time, Stanley's side obviously had no way of knowing in advance that Ansom would come after her personally -- indeed, if she actually escaped for real the first time (as I speculate below), they might not have found that out at all (a real escape implies that they lost track of her, Lookamancers and dwagonback recon notwithstanding). After a few go-arounds (especially if the later "escapes" were facilitated as part of the catch-and-release intel scheme I'm positing, so Stanley's side would be better prepared to monitor just how Jillian got home), then they'd know Ansom's pattern of behavior. It may be only just now that they feel that they can count on it to the point of committing a major chunk of their remaining rather threadbare resources.

(For that matter, if the first stages of the catch-and-release arrangement happened before Ansom came on the scene and fell for Jillian, that would delay the emergence of this pattern even more.)
/Edit

Good point, that, though I wonder how Stanley was talked into letting her go before. To let Jillian gather more intel perhaps?

But of course, it's not Wanda's plan, is it? It's Parson's plan. So it couldn't have been used until he was there to 'suggest' it.

My read is that the "ambush Ansom, grab the Arkenpliers, and maybe save Gobwin Knob by taking away Ansom's leadership*" plan is "Parson's" (actually Wanda's, with the responsibility shifted to Parson and perhaps the operational details left to Parson). The old cycle of escapes and recaptures was IMO a catch-and-release intel ploy (perhaps Wanda got the idea after Jillian legitimately escaped the first time and got recaptured with new information), done in conjunction with the early stages of Wanda's brainwashing campaign (which may have been a followup idea -- "hmmm... if she's going to be in my dungeon again and again...").

*At worst, the enemy's global leadership bonus goes down a bit when the next-best available leader takes over. At best, the enemy coalition fractures into bits... or the new leader turns out to be Jillian....

but if they lay an ambush for him and it fails, they never get the chance again. Wanda, knowing Stanley would jump at the chance for the pliers, likely didn't mention the possibility until she was ready for it.

Actually, Stanley seems to have a distinct case of cold feet ("I know! That's the only reason I'm agreeing. But it still seems risky.") Thinking about it, he may be referring to the "you only get one chance" problem with the ambush scheme, and is reluctantly willing to use that one chance now because it looks like it might be his last chance.

[Erk]

I already noticed Stanley's cold feet regarding this, but as we have seen when she suggested the Summon Perfect Warlord spell back in the beginning, Wanda doesn't always anticipate Stanley's reactions perfectly. She likely expected him to leap at the chance, and didn't propose the idea until she was good and ready to make sure it succeeded.

My guess for how this could turn out is that it winds up a hard hit for the Alliance - perhaps Ansom is croaked or loses the pliers - but they will rebound and continue to fight. If Ansom dies I strongly suspect Jillian will become the Alliance leader to avenge him. I'm excited to learn the truth though. I can't see the ambush being a huge failure or Stanley would disband Parson for it, but as long as there is a reasonable degree of success without it being perfect, Parson could survive but the battle could still rage.

[Dark]

Btw, there is too much sex in this stuff to be a pure 'turn based strategy wargame world'. Well, i mean, i've never seen any where you could control a unit by sex :)?

I have :) It's a standard ability for nymph-like units in fantasy wargames. They make kissy faces and then an opposing unit joins their side.

Mmm, Wanda the Nymph...

Excuse me, I have to go turn my head the right way round again.

[rlyon@piolaxusa]

Its going to be a fiasco. Wanda has a plan - and I think it isn't for Stanleys benefit, nor Ansom's.

My bet - the Dwagons are going to be decimated by treants. Treants being the "only" unit which can attack flying units while in a forest hex.

So, this will weaken gobwin knob even further, while possibly killing Ansom. Which is what Wanda wants.

Parson, who is presently discounted by Wanda (who sabotaged his summoning in a way she *thought* would be sabotage) is going to end up facing, and defeating Wanda, who is the real villian.

Thats my take anyway.

[Erk]

That doesn't make much sense to me. No point in writing up the dwagons if they are going to be decimated before they've ever shown their power, first off. THey could have been any decent flying unit then. Second, why would Wanda bother summoning Parson at all if his summoning was supposed to be sabotage? If she wanted an ineffective warlord, she aready had plenty of choices. Not only that, she expected Stanley to go for the "full package" and get someone else to do the summoning. She really wanted a top-dollar Chief Warlord.

[Dragor]

*claps, whoops and whistles with approval*

Awesome. And I'll admit I was wrong about Wanda and Jillian not being, eh, 'involved' with each other, but I now situate myself firmly in the camp that Wanda is simply trying to manipulate Jillian.

Otherwise, absolutely spellbinding. Erfworld is now above OOTS in my 'What's going to happen next?' category. And I didn't think that would happen.

[happyturtle]

Not only that, she expected Stanley to go for the "full package" and get someone else to do the summoning. She really wanted a top-dollar Chief Warlord.

Unless what she really wanted was to empty the treasury?

I think she really did want a good warlord, but thought I'd throw the above out for random speculation (damn Sunday-Monday comic gap! )

[Gez]

DOes anyone else notice that the school girl outfit is a refrence to the lesbian band Tatu.

I don't think Tatu invented outfit fetishism. You really think nobody found school girl outfits sexy before 1999? Exhibit A, the whole nation of Japan.

[benthehater]

Regarding Stanley's hesitation on the plan, I'd throw a few things out there for consideration.

Stanley is confident in Wanda.
Stanley is not confident in his "warlord" from "stupidworld".
Said Warlord constructed the plan.

As I kind of view Stanley as an executive type rather than a ruler type, he'll basically be ultra confident in any idea that he comes up with himself, and any idea from someone else that puts his stuff at risk is one that's dubious. And I think that holds up regarding Stanley's initial objection to Wanda's "Summon Warlord Spell" idea that would empty the treasury.

Whenever he has to make an investment or a calculated risk he hesitates until convinced.

[Ralfarius]

This strip has made me very uncomfortable...

In my pants.

[Starla]

Which is to say, this is essentially Wanda's plan, not Parson. It makes him look like a tag-along to her Ladyship.

Actually from the very beginning Wanda's character established the ability to manipulate leaders. We saw her convince Stanley to spend almost his entire treasury fund to summon a warlord. She had to bargain, but she presented the facts in such a way that Stanley felt he had to conceed to her view. I wish I knew how to do that...sometimes. Power is scary to behold.

[SteveMB]

Actually from the very beginning Wanda's character established the ability to manipulate leaders. We saw her convince Stanley to spend almost his entire treasury fund to summon a warlord. She had to bargain, but she presented the facts in such a way that Stanley felt he had to conceed to her view. I wish I knew how to do that...sometimes. Power is scary to behold.

My mental image is that, immediately after Wanda asked Parson, "Do you think you can work with that?" Parson started brainstorming the ambush idea -- as djharr noted, it's a blindingly obvious way to exploit the situation. Then, in the conversation between that point and what is quoted in the current page, Wanda steered the details in her direction, while never letting anybody forget that it was all Parson's idea .

[Sir_Banjo]

Wanda's wearing a tie! I'd love to see the contents of her closet.

So would I, but I doubt it would be appropriate for the generally PG-ish rating attached to this comic.

Very, very subtle comic. As it was so different to OoTS, I didn't think much of this comic when it first appeared but it's grown on me.

[lovelyluthien]

*happy sigh*
This page is simply brilliant, both in plot and presentation.

[VoidPointer]

Weighing in as someone who has studied D/s relationships and other type power dynamics, as well as someone who is /in/ a D/s relationship, I must say that Wanda's treatment of Jillian is not at all uncharacteristic of such relationships.

-"The very hard way."

Jillian is obviously trying either to skip the "interrogation" or goad Wanda. Either way, a dominant would probably react harshly. Also the fact that this is Wanda's "hobby" resonates, though admittedly it could mean many things.

-The relaxed attitude afterward.

Also perfectly characteristic. Dominants are often careful to provide "cooldown time" for the submissive after a scene (in this case, the interrogation). Even the comment that Wanda would have killed her if she held back is /probably/ part of her maintaining her authority. Note the nurturing behavior Wanda also displays during this time, e.g. letting Jillian have her rations. The only way this part could have been any more fitting is if Wanda had kissed Jillian gently on the forehead.

-Flying back on the dwagon.
Jillian is not entirely controlled. This is true of any submissive, and the fact that it's significant-pause complex implies there is something there that Wanda doesn't want to discuss, so it's unlikely that it's a simple battle mechanic. The whole resting-in-Wanda's-arms thing is also TOTALLY a "cute lil' subbie" thing. I've observed it.

-Other dialogue.
"Not commands." Certainly not as the Tool understands the term. A submissive is not totally controlled, and Stanley would likely be incapable of understanding the dynamic. Or, Wanda might not want to bring up her exact methods, as I mentioned.

It's also worth mentioning that all this does not necessarily imply lesbian sex. For both the dominant and the submissive, the "torture" would itself be gratifying, and whether the two have gone all the way is not terribly relevant (my submissive and I haven't).

[Daedalus73]

I really like the way this comic told the story, and made clear certain truths as to the nature of Jillian & Wanda's relationship, w/out dipping past that invisible line into "gratuitous fanservice". Very well done. :)

[SteveMB]

Weighing in as someone who has studied D/s relationships and other type power dynamics, as well as someone who is /in/ a D/s relationship, I must say that Wanda's treatment of Jillian is not at all uncharacteristic of such relationships.

As I see it, there are three threads intertwined to some extent in Wanda's relationship with Jillian:

1. Dominant/Submissive: Thank you for commenting on that; it's helpful to have a description based on experience rather than vague hearsay and stereotypes.

2. Wartime Captor/Prisoner: This is the most clearly presented angle in the story to date, and the one that is most easily understood in terms of the average person's real-world knowledge, so it tends to dominate (so to speak) the discussion.

3. Wanda's Personal Agenda: This is the possibility about which we're mostly in the dark, but which readily invites speculation based on what (apparent) clues we've seen. It could be altogether absent, but I doubt it.


Obviously, the beginnings of the relationship were straightforward captor/prisoner -- Wanda was doing her job, Jillian was in captivity, and thus (the key element distinguishing the situation from a normal D/s relationship) neither had entered the arrangement voluntarily.

How matters developed from there is rather speculative. The picture that makes the most sense to me is that Wanda learned two key facts: Jillian was privy to quite a bit of useful information and had a tendency to get in over her head. Based on that, she hit upon the short-range plan of arranging for her captive to "escape" (confident that she'd be back relatively soon with more intel) and the longer-range plan of fostering a psychological dependence using a combination of torture, mind games, and mental-influence magic.

In the process, she appears to have encouraged a submissive tendency in Jillian, and a dominant tendency in herself. (How much, if at all, either of these traits had expressed themselves earlier is unknown.) In short, Wanda trained Jillian to be submissive to her, and in the process trained herself to enjoy domming Jillian.

As you noted, this did not necessarily involve lesbian sex; the story as presented is studiously ambiguous on that point. Wanda was obviously evoking sexual tension (e.g. that white leather outfit) -- at first, this was presumably a tactic to help forge the emotional bonds that would make Jillian compliant (the captor/prisoner relationship, and perhaps pursuit of a personal agenda), later, it may have evolved into something more personal (D/s relationship).

[VoidPointer]

They did not necessarily meet as captor and warden. It's possible there is a pre-existing relationship, and Jillian lets herself get captured because of this.

Of course, this is unlikely. It's just a possibility, and there could be other explanations that lead to this conclusion. I'm merely demonstrating that the assumption that warden/captive was the first dynamic is not necessarily correct, just like the assertion that Wanda doesn't care about Jillian is not necessarily true.

[sethdarkwater]

I don't think Tatu invented outfit fetishism. You really think nobody found school girl outfits sexy before 1999? Exhibit A, the whole nation of Japan.

Its not just the outfit they even resemble the two.

[SteveMB]

They did not necessarily meet as captor and warden. It's possible there is a pre-existing relationship, and Jillian lets herself get captured because of this.

Of course, this is unlikely. It's just a possibility, and there could be other explanations that lead to this conclusion. I'm merely demonstrating that the assumption that warden/captive was the first dynamic is not necessarily correct, just like the assertion that Wanda doesn't care about Jillian is not necessarily true.

Admittedly, we don't know the backstory, but the assumption that they initially met as warden and captive most easily fits what we already know. As I put it on one or two other speculation threads, "Occam's Razor" is not the name of an item in Wanda's torture kit.

As for whether Wanda cares about Jillian -- I think at first she didn't, but formed some emotional bonding of her own in the process. (As Scientivore put it, she was conditioning herself into her own role every bit as much as she was conditioning Jillian into hers.) It's hard to tell. If she protects Jillian, is it because she cares, or because she needs Jillian for her future plans? If she shows affection to Jillian, is it because she genuinely feels it, or because it's necessary to maintain her psychological control? Both interpretations fit the data.

[VoidPointer]

As for whether Wanda cares about Jillian -- I think at first she didn't, but formed some emotional bonding of her own in the process. (As Scientivore put it, she was conditioning herself into her own role every bit as much as she was conditioning Jillian into hers.) It's hard to tell. If she protects Jillian, is it because she cares, or because she needs Jillian for her future plans? If she shows affection to Jillian, is it because she genuinely feels it, or because it's necessary to maintain her psychological control? Both interpretations fit the data.

Indeed, it could go either way, and you're probably right. What we need is more data. Luckily, it should be forthcoming shortly.

[SteveMB]

For both the dominant and the submissive, the "torture" would itself be gratifying

Added as a new reply because the GitP server doesn't seem to like "Edit" at the moment:

My recollection (I haven't reread the threads; the GitP server seems a bit slow and flaky lately) is that after Page 28 was posted, there were quite a few suggestions that Wanda and Jillian were a D/s couple. After page 30, opinions shifted toward the view that Wanda was simply a cold-blooded torturer.

I think a large part of the reason for this was that page 30, panel 8 shows a hit with a cat-o-nine-tails that clearly draws blood and (if inflicted upon someone in the real world) would probably leave a permanent scar. While I don't speak from personal experience, my understanding is that this would be a serious breach of the ground rules in just about any real-world D/s relationship.

The reasoning was: A dominant is careful to avoid inflicting real physical injury to the submissive. Wanda blatantly crossed that line. Ergo, Wanda is torturing Jillian, not domming her.

However, that "if inflicted upon someone in the real world" qualifier turns out to be important. On page 38, we see that several facial bruises vanish without any evident trace between panels 2 and 3; presumably, any other superficial wounds inflicted during the interrogation are similarly healed. This appears to be one of those things that happens at dawn in Erfworld, like the appearance of rations and cleansing. It seems logical to me that, in a world where wounds of this sort are known to heal within a day without leaving any permanent trace, the ground rules of D/s behavior might at least sometimes consider them acceptable.

[VoidPointer]

Added as a new reply because the GitP server doesn't seem to like "Edit" at the moment:

My recollection (I haven't reread the threads; the GitP server seems a bit slow and flaky lately) is that after Page 28 was posted, there were quite a few suggestions that Wanda and Jillian were a D/s couple. After page 30, opinions shifted toward the view that Wanda was simply a cold-blooded torturer.

I think a large part of the reason for this was that page 30, panel 8 shows a hit with a cat-o-nine-tails that clearly draws blood and (if inflicted upon someone in the real world) would probably leave a permanent scar. While I don't speak from personal experience, my understanding is that this would be a serious breach of the ground rules in just about any real-world D/s relationship.

The reasoning was: A dominant is careful to avoid inflicting real physical injury to the submissive. Wanda blatantly crossed that line. Ergo, Wanda is torturing Jillian, not domming her.

However, that "if inflicted upon someone in the real world" qualifier turns out to be important. On page 38, we see that several facial bruises vanish without any evident trace between panels 2 and 3; presumably, any other superficial wounds inflicted during the interrogation are similarly healed. This appears to be one of those things that happens at dawn in Erfworld, like the appearance of rations and cleansing. It seems logical to me that, in a world where wounds of this sort are known to heal within a day without leaving any permanent trace, the ground rules of D/s behavior might at least sometimes consider them acceptable.

Very well-reasoned. I'd forgotten about that bit. It just goes to show that Balder and Noguchi /really/ know what they're doing when it comes to dualistic subtext.

[Gez]

Its not just the outfit they even resemble the two.

Oh, if they are indeed made after Tatu, then they aren't actually lesbian lovers and there is no sexual tension between them -- it's just an act to get more fans.

[Erk]

Oh, if they are indeed made after Tatu, then they aren't actually lesbian lovers and there is no sexual tension between them -- it's just an act to get more fans.

now THAT is a very good point XD

[SteveMB]

Very well-reasoned. I'd forgotten about that bit.

The "healing during the dawn 'reset'", you mean? I hadn't made that connection until chiming in on this sub-thread, but then it just clicked into place. In retrospect, it's a nice bit of SF/Fantasy "How does such-and-such feature of this world affect people's thinking and behavior?" world-building.

It just goes to show that Balder and Noguchi /really/ know what they're doing when it comes to dualistic subtext.

Agreed.