El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

[halfeye]

Also, Elliot has to use magic to be Strongerthanmost - his basic strength is certainly pretty good, but if you catch him off guard in an unstable stance you can push him over like he's an unreasonably athletic teenager, rather than a superpowered martial artist.

He's a human, a stance is only strong in one direction, because we only have two feet. His stance was presumably strong toward Voltaire, so Mr Veres was just in the right position.

[Lord Raziere]

No you fools! Mr. Verres is clearly a secret master of "How Not To Get Manipulated By An Immortal Mastermind-Jitsu" and just demonstrated one of its more basic techniques! Y'know what they say: crouching tiger, hidden dragon.

After all, the unassuming old men are ALWAYS the secret kung-fu master. Always.

[Forum Explorer]

No you fools! Mr. Verres is clearly a secret master of "How Not To Get Manipulated By An Immortal Mastermind-Jitsu" and just demonstrated one of its more basic techniques! Y'know what they say: crouching tiger, hidden dragon.

After all, the unassuming old men are ALWAYS the secret kung-fu master. Always.

You raise a good point. And it explains his success with those diagrams. In reality, the ones we don't see are just pictures of him kicking the opponent's ***.

[Professor Gnoll]

You raise a good point. And it explains his success with those diagrams. In reality, the ones we don't see are just pictures of him kicking the opponent's ***.

'Exposition' is just alien slang for 'kung fu action'.

[Adaon Nightwind]

This latest comic gave me shivers. I did not expect Mr. Verres to shove so hard, so presumably he is really angry; that matches with his controlled fury directed at Voltaire. But what really got me was the direct Death Threat in the last panel.. If i understand it correctly, he either promises that his next plan *will* succeed, or that he himself will attack Elliot. Since he still operates under the self-imposed laws for immortals on this plane, however far he pushes them, i very much doubt that second interpretation is valid. (Allthough there were some interesting points made by Lord Raziere about that..) Another indicator for the first option is his plan, Complicated Mess, since he directly involved Sirleck and expects several up to a lot of dead people.

I have a bad feeling about this.

[Silva Stormrage]

This latest comic gave me shivers. I did not expect Mr. Verres to shove so hard, so presumably he is really angry; that matches with his controlled fury directed at Voltaire. But what really got me was the direct Death Threat in the last panel.. If i understand it correctly, he either promises that his next plan *will* succeed, or that he himself will attack Elliot. Since he still operates under the self-imposed laws for immortals on this plane, however far he pushes them, i very much doubt that second interpretation is valid. (Allthough there were some interesting points made by Lord Raziere about that..) Another indicator for the first option is his plan, Complicated Mess, since he directly involved Sirleck and expects several up to a lot of dead people.

I have a bad feeling about this.

That vow is sooo full of loopholes. It also doesn't prevent him from already setting a plan in place to kill Elliot THEN making the vow. It also doesn't prevent him from merely maiming Elliot, banishing him to another plane of existence, rendering him in a permanent coma, etc etc.

Hopefully Mr Verres points that out next comic.

[John Cribati]

It also fails to cover making a plan where Elliott's death was a possible consequence.

[Lord Raziere]

Lets analyze this:

"I vow to not attempt to have Elliot killed"

Hm. well here is the rub with this one....

either he is promising that he will succeed in killing him this time....therefore not really an "attempt" since he is guaranteeing it will happen. and that this promise is basically "I promise I won't fail next time".

or he is going to say....cause some other catastrophe to happen, thus putting innocents in danger that Elliot could CHOOSE to stay out of, but won't because he is a heroic idiot like that, and the catastrophic situation kills him without Voltaire's intervention, because he technically wasn't targeting ELLIOT. thus "complicated mess"

or he could simply put Elliot in a position where its VERY LIKELY that he will die and thus die from other causes because "I wasn't aiming on killing him, I just attempted to put him in a very dangerous situation in a condition where some other thing will kill him. Which still is not me attempting to do it myself." like cutting off his leg, teleporting him to the ocean then just leaving him there still alive.

or he could simply "guide" Elliot to foes he wants to fight, then give him a magic item or something that "empowers" him to deal a lot of damage......by blowing up in his face, and just happened to be caught in the blast.

Or simply go "I'm not going to kill him, I'm just going guide my fist into his heart, and empower his soul to fly around as a ghost!" which admittedly is a really silly and almost to the breaking point of how far you can twist this, but hey with Fae-like, immortal beings don't assume anything until proven otherwise.

That and there something about the past tense way he said it.... could he say "I'm not attempting to have him killed, I'm KILLING HIM in THE PRESENT!"

that and he said "I vow to not attempt to have Elliot killed" not "I vow to not kill Elliot". the weird wording when the latter is simpler and more unambiguous....

yeah, there are a lot of ways to slip around this vow. He could even set up traps around everywhere and go "well I'm not attempting to have Elliot killed, these traps could kill ANYONE!" with the additional justification of "I'm trying to guide them away from falling for traps and empowering people to recognize them by seeing them everywhere." this vow doesn't stop him from doing things that are FAR MORE HORRIBLE than just killing Elliot that could just so happen to kill Elliot as well.

[Mith]

I don't think we have to worry about "I will guarantee to kill him next time." works, since he needs to attempt to kill Elliot in the process of killing him. You attempt and then succeed or fail. Yoda is wrong.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think we have to worry about "I will guarantee to kill him next time." works, since he needs to attempt to kill Elliot in the process of killing him. You attempt and then succeed or fail. Yoda is wrong.

mind you, Star Wars is the same franchise that gave us "Jedi Truth" aka "Well yes Darth Vader killed your father from a certain point of view."

just like how success is often based on your attitude towards making yourself succeed- to someone with an optimistic attitude, an "attempt" implies failure and therefore any action that didn't succeed is an "attempt" AT that action, but succeeding IS the action ALREADY DONE, and therefore not really an attempt, because to that point of view, attempt implies failure. thats why people often use "I attempted to do X" but..." while no one says "I attempted X and succeeded" they just say "I succeeded! I did it!"

So Yoda would respond "There is only try, if you think you can fail. For quitters, is trying. For winners is doing. you keep doing it, you have not failed." your succeeding at riding a bike until you crash, then you attempted to ride a bike and crashed.

So from a determined point of view, he is not TRYING or ATTEMPTING to get him killed, that view point is for quitters, he is killing him and is thus in the process of succeeding. its semantic viewpoint bull, but it can't be ruled out. especially when these laws don't really come into effect unless they themselves think they broke it. as long he perceives himself to not break his vow, it doesn't matter what your viewpoint of the vow is, because he will take the viewpoint that benefits him.

[Mith]

Fair point. Through in enough silent disclaimers and there is really nothing stopping you.

[Forum Explorer]

I think it's the 'complicated mess' one. I wouldn't be surprised if the next comic was something like:

V: "And as such, I view it's my duty to inform you that a rather large group of vampires is coming to Moperville.

E: I've got to protect them!

V: You couldn't protect anyone. You should continue doing what you're best at and run away.

E: **** you! I'll fight them all off myself before I let a single innocent life get harmed! *Dies in a fight*

V: Hey, I tried to warn him. Not my fault he threw himself into a dangerous situation in an unstable state of mind.

[Hytheter]

Well, that's that discussion put to bed.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, Mith was right about that.

lets analyze THIS Vow:
"I vow not to do anything with the intent of Elliot getting killed."

ok, so the success loophole is out.

'not to do anything' eliminates all those loopholes where he could set up a situation for Elliot to die without actually attempting it from now on. if he even intends his actions to kill Elliot in some way, he can't do it.

but it still doesn't eliminate the possibility of him already setting up and putting into motion another plan before this that would make Elliot hurl himself into danger and just coming here to "warn" him and thus getting him killed that way. But the warning would be an action with the intent to kill. So for that plan to work, the trouble has to come up INDEPENDENT of Voltaire saying anything, and thus by this interpretation Voltaire can't tell them about it, thus putting innocents in danger while Elliot is ignorant of it and thus doesn't do anything.

So Voltaire either is completely relying on some third party to lure Elliot to his death, or he is being straight with them.

[Douglas]

So Voltaire either is completely relying on some third party to lure Elliot to his death, or he is being straight with them.

My bet is he's being straight. Plan CM is viable because of Elliot being alive, so I think Voltaire needs Elliot's cooperation (possibly unwitting and manipulated) in some way.

[Landis963]

Unluckily for you, Voltaire, we've been dealing with an immortal who a) does consider that sort of thing a loophole and b) has several screws loose.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My bet is he's being straight. Plan CM is viable because of Elliot being alive, so I think Voltaire needs Elliot's cooperation (possibly unwitting and manipulated) in some way.

Agreed. Volty's plan A required Elliot's death for success. But he gave up on plan A and moved to plan CM, which sorta implies that plan CM does not require Elliot's death - because if he could still think of a way to kill Elliot, he would stick with plan A. Therefore, whatever the CM plan requires, him vowing to not kill Elliot won't endanger it. But beyond that, CM does seem to require Volty to manipulate the main characters into some kind of action (whether he is attempting direct manipulation or reverse psychology manipulation remains to be seen).

Grey Wolf

[halfeye]

but it still doesn't eliminate the possibility of him already setting up and putting into motion another plan before this that would make Elliot hurl himself into danger and just coming here to "warn" him and thus getting him killed that way. But the warning would be an action with the intent to kill. So for that plan to work, the trouble has to come up INDEPENDENT of Voltaire saying anything, and thus by this interpretation Voltaire can't tell them about it, thus putting innocents in danger while Elliot is ignorant of it and thus doesn't do anything.

So Voltaire either is completely relying on some third party to lure Elliot to his death, or he is being straight with them.

Sirlek (spelt?) is the party in question, and yes Voltaire came here with the intention of getting prohibited from telling Elliot about Sirlek, Voltaire is that devious and more.

I'm suspecting that in D&D terms Voltaire is LE and Pandora is CG, and it's going to be very satisfying to see Pandora win this one hard.

[Landis963]

Sirlek (spelt?) is the party in question, and yes Voltaire came here with the intention of getting prohibited from telling Elliot about Sirlek, Voltaire is that devious and more.

I'm suspecting that in D&D terms Voltaire is LE and Pandora is CG, and it's going to be very satisfying to see Pandora win this one hard.

Sirleck is going after Raven at the current time, which will undoubtedly bring down Pandora's rage upon him, thus neatly distracting her from the rest of Voltaire's plan. Elliot doesn't need to go after Sirleck for him to be useful. Besides, the prohibition against harming Elliot essentially locks out Plan A, implying that since Voltaire agreed to the amended deal, he doesn't want Elliot dead anymore.

[halfeye]

Sirleck is going after Raven at the current time, which will undoubtedly bring down Pandora's rage upon him, thus neatly distracting her from the rest of Voltaire's plan. Elliot doesn't need to go after Sirleck for him to be useful. Besides, the prohibition against harming Elliot essentially locks out Plan A, implying that since Voltaire agreed to the amended deal, he doesn't want Elliot dead anymore.

Wanting somebody dead and doing anything about it are two different things. Voltaire has agreed not to do anything to try to kill Elliot, that doesn't mean he wouldn't like it if Elliot died.

[Lizard Lord]

Wanting somebody dead and doing anything about it are two different things. Voltaire has agreed not to do anything to try to kill Elliot, that doesn't mean he wouldn't like it if Elliot died.

Perhaps, but it is no longer his plan to have Eliot killed. Any petty satisfaction he may get from Elliot's death would just be an unplanned bonus.

[Vinyadan]

BTW, is Voltaire French?

[Lizard Lord]

BTW, is Voltaire French?

Do you mean the origins of the name or the immortal himself? Because I don't think immortals have nationalities.

[Vinyadan]

Yes, but there's been that whole thing for the last ten years with the immortals from France pretending to be visiting students, I wonder Voltaire has some previous connection with them.

[Lizard Lord]

Yes, but there's been that whole thing for the last ten years with the immortals from France pretending to be visiting students, I wonder Voltaire has some previous connection with them.

I doubt it, but we don't yet know why they improperly reset. So who knows?

[Professor Gnoll]

The thing is- much as pages like this one answer questions and clear up confusion, they're also a big reason why the pacing is so slow. This page accomplishes almost nothing, except to possibly characterise Mr. Verres as someone who spots loopholes- something that could have been achieved without taking up an entire page to do so. And then little scenes get stretched into pages and pages, and every variable has to be addressed and explained, and then it takes a year to cover the events of an afternoon. Part of the comic's charm does lie in its tendency to address minor issues, but there's such a thing as getting too bogged down in the details.

[Mith]

I think in this case, he also had a large number of people sending him emails/tweets pointing out this potential loophole, so he found it best to address it right away.

[Vinyadan]

The loose screws part also makes the previous explanations of "according to immortal laws insane makes right" redundant.

And we have two dates to look forward to, Sarah's and Justin's! They both needed an 8 month long magic tournament to be set up, and will probably take as long as Elliot's to be played out, unless something happens in the meantime.

I guess Dan prepares a draft with happenings for many years and then plays them out as long as he feels it's needed? big sections each built around a small character group that can converge with others when needed. He very rarely uses time cuts, does he? We get very long continuous scenes.

Having to address unneeded stuff, I'd probably go for Adam (if he won't appear again; I actually liked that arc) and the hog. I actually have no idea why we had a whole arc for that. And the card games, of course.

[Mith]

Adam? Do you mean Abram the Wizard?

[Yuki Akuma]

Abraham's existence set up a bunch of stuff in later storylines, even if he won't appear again (although he COULD, depending on how his "I return to atone for my sins" spell works). Sister 2 gave Nanase her Guardian form, and also burnt her magic out so she couldn't just answer the problems of the next few arcs herself - as well as establishing that magic COULD be overused, so it can't be used to solve ever problem anyway.

It also revealed Adrian's true nature, and established his relationship with Pandora, which is getting payoff soon™.

The boar story was mostly character development for Adrian and continuing the character development for Grace that started around Hammerchlorians. It also helped establish the "someone is marking people without their consent!" storyline.

I'm not sure there's really any pointless arcs, although there are certainly a few comics that could be excised without losing anything meaningful.