El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

[halfeye]

This was my first thought upon hearing that she was looking for her wife. If someone could do that storyline while maintaining a light tone it's probably EGS, so here's hoping.

I want an update!

[Egneil]

Spoiler: New Update

Show

It looks like we're having a case of a literal genie.

As for the abused spouse angle; I never got that vibe. To me it looked more like the ancient wanted something from the griffin or from Eliot. I mean you can get the same initial actions by leaving certain things unsaid, and if you don't want to seem manipulative you can get the victim to ask you to start omitting things.

That's just my take on the scene though.

[Lizard Lord]

Spoiler

Show

Are ancients and immortals the same thing?

Because, if so, that would mean that the French Immortals broke the rules (Jerry even flat out said that they lied). I suppose that could be added to the list of theories on how/why the French Immortals "died".

[theNater]

Spoiler

Show

Are ancients and immortals the same thing?

Because, if so, that would mean that the French Immortals broke the rules (Jerry even flat out said that they lied). I suppose that could be added to the list of theories on how/why the French Immortals "died".

Spoiler

Show

It's a reasonable guess; they apparently have similar reactions to rule-breaking.

The strip in question leaves a bit of room for interpretation. It's possible they misled the girls without direct lies and Jerry didn't want to wrangle with the technicalities. Still worth putting on the theory pile, I'd say.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler

Show

Pretty sure "ancient" is just another term for immortal, probably favored by the more mythical set like gryphons.

I'm also guessing that the French immortals pulled a "from a certain point of view" twist on their words, so that they were telling the truth in a misleading way. From a certain point of view, they were already tied into events, thus the only ones suitable to finishing it. From a certain point of view, the fact that the abomination had already targeted them made them better suited to solving the problem, because the abomination might have been too smart to target professionals. From a certain point of view, they manipulated two scared girls to the purpose of equipping a new generation with the tools to fight monsters. Jerry is certainly looking at it from that last perspective.

Note that even the renegade immortal, Pandora, still obeys the rules. She tells the truth, even if she has to bend events to make it the truth ("Ellen would have died if you had left this school, because I would not have saved her.") She "guides" and "empowers" as a proper immortal should, but does it in ways no proper immortal would. She consistently follows the letter of the law while actively disobeying the spirit of the law. I'm sure she even has some legal justification for neglecting her scheduled deaths.

[Lizard Lord]

I suppose it is also worth mentioning that being "incredibly knowledgeable and wise" doesn't mean you are never wrong (heck, it doesn't even mean never doing something stupid). Unless it was a just longer way of saying omniscient, but I very much doubt that.

[theNater]

I'm sure [Pandora] even has some legal justification for neglecting her scheduled deaths.

I was under the impression the deaths aren't legally mandated, just a really good idea. Certainly, Jerry's description never indicates that failure to reset is a crime, merely that the likely consequences constitute a faux pas.

[malloyd]

I don't see any particular reason to believe griffins are particularly up on the details of the rules of immortal society anyway. And the core here is an old, old problem: How do we know the Gods don't lie? Well they said so themselves....

[Temporal Echo]

This is starting to feel like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you go to Elliot you can find out where your wife is, but Elliot has no clue what is going on with Griffon #1. However, Ellen and the others just happen to be discussing it because Griffon #1 & #2 are spotted and act differently enough for the investigation group to realize that there are 2 cloaked figures instead of 1, allowing them to tell Ashley who just happens to be there to serve as the go-between between Ellen and Elliot. This allows Griffon #2 to learn more about Griffon #1 because #2 caused an incident that caused Ellen to provide the information to Ashley who is taking it to Elliot, something that would not have happened had the ancient not had Griffon #2 cause a fuss. This makes the ancient's words at least somewhat true BECAUSE the ancient said them and caused the chain reaction that would make them true. Had the Ancient said nothing then it would not be true because Griffon #2 would not be in the mall to make Ashley call Ellen and get the info needed to help resolve the issue.

The interesting thing here though is the fact that Elliot now knows that the is a 'energy clog', leading one to wonder whether or not this whole mess was meant to give the heroes more info on Pandora's plans.

[halfeye]

Could Pandora be old enough to be that Pandora?

[theNater]

Could Pandora be old enough to be that Pandora?

While "immortal" certainly suggests that it's possible, it seems unlikely. Remember, the rule of thumb for resetting is 200 years; that kind of implies that thousands of years is right out.

On the other hand, Jerry also tells us that immortals like to name themselves after mythological figures. And Pandora, Chaos, and Raven are three distinct mythic figures. This suggests to me that she took her name from them, rather than just happening to be one or all of them.

[halfeye]

While "immortal" certainly suggests that it's possible, it seems unlikely. Remember, the rule of thumb for resetting is 200 years; that kind of implies that thousands of years is right out.

On the other hand, Jerry also tells us that immortals like to name themselves after mythological figures. And Pandora, Chaos, and Raven are three distinct mythic figures. This suggests to me that she took her name from them, rather than just happening to be one or all of them.

We seem to know for a fact that she's 900+ years old, from that it's not that huge a step to 2500 +/- 200. She seems insane enough, though maybe she oughtent to have been that insane 2k+ years ago.

[Rater202]

I'd like to point out that the original Pandora from the mythology was human.

So Pandora Chaos Raven, an immortal, can't be that Pandora.

[Douglas]

We seem to know for a fact that she's 900+ years old, from that it's not that huge a step to 2500 +/- 200. She seems insane enough, though maybe she oughtent to have been that insane 2k+ years ago.

The highest age indicator I remember getting for her is 299 plus "a few centuries", which I'd guess means 600 to 800 or so. Any more than that and I'd expect it to be "several centuries".

[Lizard Lord]

Spoiler: My interpretation of the current comic

Show

So Pandora did not send Tiger Griffin and the Immortal that did did so with the intent of getting Elliot killed? If that's correct than this would likely mean that the immortal did intentionally mislead the Tiger Griffin, even if he did not flat out lie. And either way it means that other Immortals know what Pandora is up to and don't like it.

On the other hand, by intentionally blocking the escalator, he is physically stopping Ashley from getting to Elliot. Isn't that also against the rules? Maybe this guy has found a way to break the rules without getting caught?

[Landis963]

Spoiler: My interpretation of the current comic

Show

So Pandora did not send Tiger Griffin and the Immortal that did did so with the intent of getting Elliot killed? If that's correct than this would likely mean that the immortal did intentionally mislead the Tiger Griffin, even if he did not flat out lie. And either way it means that other Immortals know what Pandora is up to and don't like it.

On the other hand, by intentionally blocking the escalator, he is physically stopping Ashley from getting to Elliot. Isn't that also against the rules? Maybe this guy has found a way to break the rules without getting caught?

He's guiding her away from the path of saving Elliot. Perfectly legal.

[The Mormegil]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oh this is going to be awesome.

[Silva Stormrage]

Spoiler: My interpretation of the current comic

Show

So Pandora did not send Tiger Griffin and the Immortal that did did so with the intent of getting Elliot killed? If that's correct than this would likely mean that the immortal did intentionally mislead the Tiger Griffin, even if he did not flat out lie. And either way it means that other Immortals know what Pandora is up to and don't like it.

On the other hand, by intentionally blocking the escalator, he is physically stopping Ashley from getting to Elliot. Isn't that also against the rules? Maybe this guy has found a way to break the rules without getting caught?

Spoiler

Show

It could be as simple as saying, "What I decided to stand there long before she made her decision to try to use the elevator. That was just a coincidence" It is possible that the rules aren't THAT well defined for immortals.

[Lissou]

The highest age indicator I remember getting for her is 299 plus "a few centuries", which I'd guess means 600 to 800 or so. Any more than that and I'd expect it to be "several centuries".

Maybe. I don't know, I've known people in their 50s who'd say they're "20, give or take a few years". Using the word "several" kind of neglects the euphemistic effect of saying it that way in the first place, I would say.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: My interpretation of the current comic

Show

So Pandora did not send Tiger Griffin and the Immortal that did did so with the intent of getting Elliot killed? If that's correct than this would likely mean that the immortal did intentionally mislead the Tiger Griffin, even if he did not flat out lie. And either way it means that other Immortals know what Pandora is up to and don't like it.

On the other hand, by intentionally blocking the escalator, he is physically stopping Ashley from getting to Elliot. Isn't that also against the rules? Maybe this guy has found a way to break the rules without getting caught?

Spoiler

Show

First off, until he's introduced as a brand new character, I'm assuming this Immortal is Jerry. The Dunkels are not part of Jerry's promise, so he's under no obligation to help him.

Second, look at the examples of "Guide and Empower" we've had so far:
Jerry:
* Creates the Hammer relic as a joke to encourage more offensive jokes (by creating a harmless but cathartic avenue for payback).
* Disarms and educates Susan after she cracked after learning the nature of the Hammer.
* Makes a quick and cryptic remark to Grace about the follies of forced and false innocence.
* Attempts to give Sarah access to magic, but ultimately fails because Sarah matures a little.
* "Accidentally" bogarts the punch bowl at the Christmas party, casually mentions that the (enchanted) punch tasted funny, keeping Diane out of !Tengu's clutches.

The Twins:
* Convinced a pair of kids to fight a psuedo vampire by giving them a pep talk and the magic to kill it, but no other support - drastically changing Susan as a result.
* Are apparently too broken now to provide much guidance or power to anyone.

Pandora Chaos Raven
* Answered a question in a cryptic (but symbolically accurate) way by Wolf and Cranium regarding Magus's arrival.
* Advises Magus repeatedly on how to achieve his goals (primarily when his goals coincide with hers).
* Attempts to get Magus to manipulate Verres. Loses her cool when she is refused, but acknowledges she already knew he would.
* Simply makes an appearance on a live television news broadcast.
* Grants Dex a magic mark and then advises him on how to best use it.
* Grants many people marks - advises only some (Sarah gets a tutorial, Tedd does not).

So far, Jerry has only attempted to indirectly block Ashley from getting involved in a confrontation she has no place in, and advise her that she's not strong enough to have a positive impact. That's in keeping with other actions immortals have taken. One could call this a rather benevolent act for an immortal, in fact, attempting to limit collateral damage from his scheme.

[Lizard Lord]

Spoiler

Show

Eh...I'm not convinced this is Jerry. The manipulating of a Tiger Griffin to kill an unwitting agent of another immortal just doesn't seem like his M.O. He only helped Nanase and Diane out of obligation to a promise in his previous life. And given how he tried to convince himself that he could now get out of that promise, it would seem serious work is something he likes to avoid.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler

Show

Eh...I'm not convinced this is Jerry. The manipulating of a Tiger Griffin to kill an unwitting agent of another immortal just doesn't seem like his M.O. He only helped Nanase and Diane out of obligation to a promise in his previous life. And given how he tried to convince himself that he could now get out of that promise, it would seem serious work is something he likes to avoid.

Spoiler

Show

Absolutely true, but based on conservation of characters, it's usually less likely to be a new character than an old one with a new coat of paint. And I don't think Pandora would talk smack against herself, even for a trick.

[Lizard Lord]

Spoiler

Show

Absolutely true, but based on conservation of characters, it's usually less likely to be a new character than an old one with a new coat of paint. And I don't think Pandora would talk smack against herself, even for a trick.

Spoiler

Show

Maybe its one of the young immortals all grown up? Its been a while since we have seen them and who knows how long it actually takes for immortals to reach an adult level of maturity.

[Yuki Akuma]

Spoiler

Show

There is no way this is Jerry, Pandora, or indeed any other Immortal we've met. The design and, more importantly, personality is far too different for any of them.

Also, Dan doesn't suddenly redesign characters like that if there's not a reason, and there's no reason Jerry wouldn't be in the form we see him at during the New Years storyline. None of the characters he's shown himself to were at the party, so no one would recognise him. Why would he just ditch his 'Santa' theme?

Besides, his actions seem far too cruel for what we know of Jerry, pre- and post-reincarnation.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

I am thinking that this new immortal is Chaos's opposite, Order.

he wears all white. and his tone of voice seems curt and impersonal. to me that indicates that he is some form of Order.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler

Show

There is no way this is Jerry, Pandora, or indeed any other Immortal we've met. The design and, more importantly, personality is far too different for any of them.

Also, Dan doesn't suddenly redesign characters like that if there's not a reason, and there's no reason Jerry wouldn't be in the form we see him at during the New Years storyline. None of the characters he's shown himself to were at the party, so no one would recognise him. Why would he just ditch his 'Santa' theme?

Besides, his actions seem far too cruel for what we know of Jerry, pre- and post-reincarnation.

Spoiler

Show

Okay, I'll grant that I'd forgotten the Colonel's (if he's not Jerry, he's Colonel Sanders, dangit) conversation with the gryphon. He's a bit trollish there. Of course, Jerry rather proudly stated that his younger self is a bit of a troll. That's the whole history of the Hammer in a nutshell. Even then, however, he's helping and only teasing her a bit. Also, as I believe I said, blocking Ashley isn't exactly a jerk move. Whether he just lets her past or follows it up with either the suggestion that she watch and see what her beau really is like* or asks if Ashley wants the power to make a difference, it could still be a constructive action.

* Ash is an adorable girl, not going to lie, but if she can't keep up she should learn not to step up. Seeing Elliot in a life-and-death fight with a gryphon could prove real enough to dissuade her from pushing further into a world she's not equipped for. I severely doubt that's the case, but some hope must be held for the Elliot/Susan shippers.

Of course, I do expect Sanders is a new character. We're already introducing a gryphon announcing to the general public about an "energy clog". This is a revelation arc, so it's a good time to reveal new characters.

[Grytorm]

Spoiler: Spoil

Show

It depends on who the "Pawn of Chaos". I could see it as either Eliot or the Griffin. Eliot is more likely but the personality of the White Immortal while they interacted with Griffin does remind me of Pandora a little. So Griffin could be the pawn. The man at the escalator does remind me of Jerry because of how he looks. But is probably not Jerry. Although I don't think Santa Hat is a given because that was at a Christmas party.

[Qwertystop]

Spoiler

Show

I am thinking that this new immortal is Chaos's opposite, Order.

he wears all white. and his tone of voice seems curt and impersonal. to me that indicates that he is some form of Order.

I doubt it, for one reason: Their names are entirely self-selected and have no particular meaning beyond that the immortal who decided to call themselves that liked the name. There's no fundamental-force-of-Chaos in Pandora, she just likes the name and actually does stuff in a pretty organized way. Similarly, there's no such thing as an "opposite" for immortals in the deep sense you imply - and if one decided to call themselves Order, that wouldn't make them any more or less different to Pandora than if they decided to call themselves Bob.

The new guy (Colonel until we get an actual name, as Calemyr said) might be her opposite in a narrative sense, in being fairly different to her in many ways and also opposed to her in goals, but there's nothing deeper in that than in two humans having the same relationship.

[Lord Raziere]

no its Order. I imagine immortals get pretty bored over such long periods of time, so they concoct various opposing symmetrical relationships to conflict with each other on to liven things up, so one plays Chaos, the other plays Order just to make their lives interesting, and act as if they're fundamental things even if they're not.

[The Mormegil]

That isn't Jerry, it's the white immortal we saw talking with the griffin before.

Also, this can easily end with Ashley getting marked, but... I'm not sure where I stand on that. We already have Sarah getting marked, and while marks are cool, all marks all the time are kinda less cool?