Page 46..errr..42, Discuss!

[happyturtle]

Vinnie is clearly a vampiwe.

[SteveMB]

Parson has to have thought about this [strong response from Ansom to guard/ gather Zamussels] as a generic possibility. Worse before it gets better will not please Tool, unless Parson has warned him of it, and perhaps prepared for it with a counter.

If Parson has any tactical sense, he'll plan to make the ambush decisively overwhelming... against the level of forces he's expecting. Given recent developments, that may mean an ambush force that is fairly closely balanced against Ansom's actual forces. (On a meta level, obviously, that leads to a more satisfying dramatic setup than either "the ambush goes off without a hitch" or "Ansom smells a rat and doesn't take the bait at all".)

Edit: For that matter, Ansom may view "walking into the ambush" with more forces than the enemy is expecting as Stanley walking into his trap. ("I would rather face enemy forces in the open, than to pry them out of those defenses.")

[Strengfellow]

Hmmm a Wampire, a Wam-pir-ray.

Either way I think he and Wanda will come to metaphorical blows at some point.

[SteveMB]

I figured that Ansom might've summoned the Archons there to begin with. Is it the next turn after Webinar found Jillian's magic items and Ansom said for someone to get him Charlie? Depending on the game, summoned units might appear in the next turn with all of their movement points used up, plus Stanley goes first IIRC. So, it would've made sense for him to summon them on top of a stack in front of his fast fliers; that's exactly what I do in games like that, in situations like that.

The catch is that, as factotum noted, he made the decision to summon the Archons ("And someone get me Charlie.") before he knew that Jillian had "escaped" (indeed, before she had in fact "escaped" -- note that Team Stanley discusses Webinar's recovery of the hat and sword, which is what prompted Ansom's decision, while Jillian is still their prisoner). That said, Erfworld mechanics may not commit you to a specific summoning point until the requested units are actually ready to appear.

The exact timing is a bit unclear, since we aren't sure whether the "escape" was conducted on the same turn that started when we saw the various popped rations, or not. The latter option would give more time for Team Stanley to set up the ambush and for Jillian to recover and receive her "reward"; the former option implies that going home was the "reward" (so getyer minds outta the gutter already ).

Edit: The "schoolgirl uniform" (mmmmmmm.... oh, sorry, I was in the middle of writing something, wasn't I?) may point toward it being a new turn, or it may just be that Wanda didn't consider the tank top to be a good riding outfit.

[Azukar]

It's been said, but I'll add my two cents:
Charlie's Archons: excellent. Four-star reference.
Vinnie Doombats: Favourite character. By far.

[Wolf53226]

Just loved the first panel with the silhouette of the angels/archons.

You know....someone is going to have to start a Vinny fan club, if it hasn't started already.

[Lefty the Drunken Lush]

Are Charlie's Archons airline stewardesses?

[Azukar]

Are Charlie's Archons airline stewardesses?

I can imagine why.

[SolkaTruesilver]

the dish is definetly an arkentool

just look at the way it's been drawn (or pictured?), and like the other arkentools, it doesn't fit in a fantasy world

[One Skunk Todd]

Does anybody else think that Charlie's fortress bears more than a passing resemblance to Orthanc or Barad-Dur? (at least as the filmmakers envisioned them) And I notice the dish seems to be mounted to a trusswork tower. Fairly advanced compared to other technology we've seen.

The Archons do remind me of stewardesses, in fact, they remind me very much of the stewardesses in Toy Story 2.

[SteveMB]

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Come to think of it, we don't know anything about what Jillian knows or has said to Wanda, and she definitely wasn't at the war council assembly on pages 21 and 22. Which doesn't mean, of course, that she wasn't told the [true] plan beforehand - but it leaves open the possibility. Still, I'm not sure Ansom strikes me as the type for that sort of thing.

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We know that Jillian was told some version of the plan, based on the conversation-in-progress we join on page 8. Whether Ansom was uncertain enough at that time to give her disinformation about parts that she didn't need to know for her mission remains to be seen.

Some more general thoughts on the "Do you trust her?" question:

Ansom knows that Jillian has been captured repeatedly in the past, and clearly considers it a distinct possibility that she'll be captured again. What we don't know is whether or not he thinks that Jillian would give up secrets after being captured. This breaks down into the questions:

1. Did Jillian actually give up anything on previous interrogations? Strictly speaking, we don't know, but I infer that the answer is "yes" because I don't see any other way of explaining the repeated cycle of captivity and escape. She might get out on her own, or be released by Wanda, a few times -- but sooner or later (probably sooner) Stanley would order her croaked rather than taken prisoner next time unless there was somthing in it for him that was worth letting a formidable enemy leader remain (intermittently) at large.

2. If she did give up information, does she admit it to Ansom? Presumably not; if she did Ansom would obviously have no choice but to either cut her out of the loop or not let her fly any more recon missions. It's possible that after Wanda is finished with her, she doesn't remember giving up anything. Alternatively, in her current mental state she might be rationalizing that telling these things to Wanda (who, in Jillian's perception, loves her and would never do anything to hurt her) isn't really a problem, and so it's not something Ansom needs to be bothered with knowing.

3. If she denies giving up information during previous captures, does Ansom believe her? Well, that's the 64,000 Schmucker Question....

[Kef]

Vinny is indeed awesome. Stanley and Co. are in trouble if Ansom starts listening to him. Ansom's becoming more interesting and likable, too.

[innovan]

Too much buildup before the fight. The fight should be happening already.

The story introduction is long over. The characters are established. The conflict is established. The plot is established. At the halfway mark you should be acting out the story with what you already have, not introducing still more characters and still more minions.

Humorous? Sure it is. But it's not effective writing.

Although given this week and a certain English major, I'm okay with avoiding violence today.

[TheEmerged]

Darn it, I *hate* it when I'm thick... took me almost 10 minutes to figure out what "dish" you folks were talking about.

Definitely the Arkendish, and definitely expands the possible list of tools if high-tech stuff is being figured in.

[jindra34]

Too much buildup before the fight. The fight should be happening already.

The story introduction is long over. The characters are established. The conflict is established. The plot is established. At the halfway mark you should be acting out the story with what you already have, not introducing still more characters and still more minions.

Humorous? Sure it is. But it's not effective writing.

Although given this week and a certain English major, I'm okay with avoiding violence today.

Who said we were at the Halfway mark???

[Brazeku]

Charlie's Angels references aside...

Archons are flying units, it seems. Which means they CAN attack Dwagons, even over rough terrain. I don't know how an Archon compares to a Dwagon in power, but in D&D, any three Archons could WHOMP any five dragons any day... even without resorting to CoDzilla cheeze (which they could, since they're high-end clerics).

Not really. Even if you are talking angels this isn't true. In 3rd edition, the most powerful dragons are basically death machines.

[ryos]

I think it possible that Ansom summoned the Archons simply to protect Dora and Webinar. The most probable reason is that he knows that Stanley would know about the dropped items and want to recover them.

However, Charlie does mention three warlords. Either he was apprised immediately of the change of circumstance, or none of the theories about the Archons getting summoned before the release are valid.

(Or Rob simply made a mistake. It happens, eh?)

I really like the way the pacing has been handled in these last two strips. No time wasted telling or showing things we can reasonably infer on our own. Bravo!

[SteveMB]

Who said we were at the Halfway mark???

My recollection is that Rob and Jamie plan for this story to last 90-some pages.

At this point, we've seen the basic setup on both sides and the tricks Team Stanley has up its sleeve (Parson, Wanda's influence over Jillian). A page or two of Ansom pulling a few surprises, in the process shifting expectations from "Ansom is walking into a trap" to "Hmmm... this could go either way" works for me as final lead-in to the opening of the main battle.

It occurs to me that both sides may think they've outsmarted the other -- Stanley by baiting Ansom into an ambush, Ansom by bringing more forces than Stanley is expecting and fighting a battle on his preferred terms (out in the open rather than into the teeth of Gobwin Knob's defenses).

However, Charlie does mention three warlords. Either he was apprised immediately of the change of circumstance, or none of the theories about the Archons getting summoned before the release are valid.

It may be that, while Ansom contacted Charlie to arrange the summoning before Jillian turned up, the details of the actual summoning (i.e. where the Archons appear, their instructions) were only just now finalized. It depends on the mechanics of purchasing and summoning such units in Erfworld.

[ryos]

Too much buildup before the fight. The fight should be happening already.

The story introduction is long over. The characters are established. The conflict is established. The plot is established. At the halfway mark you should be acting out the story with what you already have, not introducing still more characters and still more minions.

Humorous? Sure it is. But it's not effective writing.

Although given this week and a certain English major, I'm okay with avoiding violence today.

It occurs to me that, on the surface, this story is essentially all buildup. Once the actual battle starts, this chapter of the story is almost over.

It also occurs to me that that would be a rather disappointing result. I expect that a story that has been a year in planning would deliver more complexity than a single battle.

So....wait and see, says I.

[20thLevelGeek]

The battle will be happening soon enough. Ansom says he is going to be meeting up with the main column in at Gobwin Knob in only 2 turns. Which should be about enough time for this escape/ambush to resolve itself. Though I am sure it will move at the speed of plot. Which we have seen in this comic, can be pretty damn fast if it so chooses!

[nooblade]

I looked into some warlords game stuff and now I'm starting to think more and more that Stanley and Ansom are just players in a game--neither of them are necessarily good or bad. If you like Vinnie because he's reasonable, that sounds fine to me. But he doesn't act like a minion--he's probably a different player somehow united with Ansom. Some kind of alliance like what's going on with Charlie. He doesn't look like he's just a warlord.

But what's Stanley then if he isn't a warlord? The cast page says "Overlord" but we have no idea what that means. Is Ansom being controlled by someone a lot like Stanley controls Parson? Maybe the large conflict is really going to be between Parson and Ansom.

Ansom did need to build "coalitions", which kind of implies that every group mentioned individually way back when was a different agenda--like different nations. I think that they have their own motives and interests and are only willing to unite to bring Stanley down. Vinnie obviously doesn't have any kind of personal grudge against Stanley, one of the pages further back had an interesting dialouge between Stanley and Vinnie that allow me to conclude that. This makes me wonder how Ansom could be controlling Vinnie. Are they really friends? Is Vinnie only somehow looking out for his own interests? They way he said "boss" was interesting. They don't sound entirely familiar. None of the players really seem to be especially "good" when I think about it, Vinnie's vampireness makes me especially suspicious of him.

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This goes well with earlier ideas I had about levels. Stanley is very high "level" because he can get dwagons, twolls, goblins, (albeit few) humans, crap golems, uncroaked, spidews, and maybe more. Ansom is lower because he only has sourmanders, cloth golems, gwiffons, humans, orlies, and some other stuff. All of the elf units were from a different player. Vinnie's doombats probably weren't made by Ansom's devices. The archons can't be produced without enough "tech" that noone but Charlie has.

But it might still be that only Overlords can really produce units and manage resources. Ansom's overlord shouldn't need to form coalitions between all of his different kinds of forces though. Then again, the difference between Overlord and Warlord might be too fine. Maybe Ansom is a Warlord who went Overlord? Or another possibility is that Ansom is incapable of procuring reenforcements. But that doesn't make as much sense. You get the feeling that Ansom and Stanley are nearly equal opposites.

[Vreejack]

Too much buildup before the fight. The fight should be happening already.

The story introduction is long over. The characters are established. The conflict is established. The plot is established. At the halfway mark you should be acting out the story with what you already have, not introducing still more characters and still more minions.

Humorous? Sure it is. But it's not effective writing.

What makes you think this is the half-way mark? Half-way mark for what?

What makes you think there ever was an introduction? When you are creating a world the entire story will have introductory elements; there is rarely a need for a specific introduction, nor would it suffice if you did write one.

What makes you think the plot is established? The main plot may be something that has only been tangentially hinted at--something we will not recognize until later.

What makes you think there is going to be a fight? The "title" fight has already been pushed downstream to make way for this upcoming conflict, but there is no guarantee that either events will occur as you envision them.

Please let us know what you normally read so we can avoid those stories.

[jindra34]

What makes you think this is the half-way mark? Half-way mark for what?

What makes you think there ever was an introduction? When you are creating a world the entire story will have introductory elements; there is rarely a need for a specific introduction, nor would it suffice if you did write one.

What makes you think the plot is established? The main plot may be something that has only been tangentially hinted at--something we will not recognize until later.

What makes you think there is going to be a fight? The "title" fight has already been pushed downstream to make way for this upcoming conflict, but there is no guarantee that either events will occur as you envision them.

Please let us know what you normally read so we can avoid those stories.

Thank you for that obivous insight that agrees with my assumption...

[the_tick_rules]

why would ansom wanna kill jillian, weird. nice charlies angles ref. hey was the site down almost all of today for anyone else?

[jindra34]

why would ansom wanna kill jillian, weird. nice charlies angles ref. hey was the site down almost all of today for anyone else?

1. Because he has to go off and rescue her like once a week...
2. Its been like that for almost a week... but i do not think that here is the right place to discuss that...

[SteveMB]

why would ansom wanna kill jillian, weird.

It seems obvious to me that Ansom and Vinnie were bantering -- look at their expressions, and note that each of them has a chuckle ("Heh." "Hyah!") written into their dialog. Specifically, the "...are you goin' there to croak her with your bare hands?" and "I don't know, Vinny. Maybe I'll decide when I get there." are expressions of irritation about Jillian having gotten herself captured again, relatively light-hearted now that she has (apparently) escaped and simply needs to be escorted out of Stanley's territory.

Of course, Vinny realizes that it's not quite that simple, which is why he has a more serious expression in the last panel, when he urges Ansom not to go because that's what Stanley is expecting.

[innovan]

What makes you think this is the half-way mark? Half-way mark for what?

Umm, perhaps you missed this post when they started the strip?

Hi, everyone! We're psyched to be here and hope you will enjoy our show.

Prior to launch there will be more preview graphics and information about the comic, so watch for that.

Erfworld will be a full-size, full-color graphic novel, which will wind up when it reaches around 80 or 90 pages (depending on some of Jamie's art choices).

(emphasis added)

Now they're free to change their minds whenever and however they want. But publishers, who have to pay by the full color page for what they print, aren't always quite as flexible as artists wish they would be.

If they are sticking to their originally announced plan and want this to be a self contained graphic novel when published with a beginning, a middle and a conclusion within 80-90 pages, they're half-way through the published book now, on page 42 or 46, depending on how you want to count it.

[jindra34]

innovan: despite stated things that does not mean that that is the end of Erf world... in fact ending all this stuff after only 90 pages seems kinda a waste

[Demented]

It may be the end of this story arc... But only the beginning of the next.

[Erk]

That was, I would say, the least important of his arguments, Innovan. More important was "halfway mark for what?" -- you've assumed there is going to be a final climactic battle and that forty someodd pages are going to be devoted to depicting it, which to me gives the impression you haven't been reading the comic the same way I have. This isn't a hack-and-slash story, it is a tactical/strategic story, and most of the pages have been devoted to the development and implementation of the strategies involved. Most of them are not army-movement. Besides that, if the comic ends with Ansom's remaining forces rushing the walls of Gobwin Knob, that would be a pretty appropriate cliffhanger. The battle, as we have seen so far, is not in the armies hitting each other with all they have. That is what Stanley thinks a battle is, and that is why he only has one city left. The battle is what is happening in the comic right now, in strip 42. That is the battle. When the armies start bashing each other? That is just the epilogue.

It cracks me up when, as has happened a lot lately, people come in and say "this isn't how to write a story. A story needs to follow this pattern:" ... that's called 'formulaic writing' and it is a great way to produce boring, predictable stories.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding. Most of the Erfworld fans are getting frenzied with excitement after these last two pages. That doesn't sound like bad writing technique or pacing to me.