Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

[Svata]

True. I'll try it.

[IronicGentleman]

I think Cabal Therapy might be a good switch in for duress for the mono-black deck, depending on how well you know the people you play with, also I like Nekrataal a little more than Shriekmaw it doesn't have Evoke, however the first strike makes it a little more difficult to trade with when you have him on the field and swinging since he can come in and pop the creature most likely to block him and walk away.

Believe me, I'd run Therapy if it were Modern legal. Now ... to go hound WotC about a reprint ... Like that'll ever happen ...

I see your point about Nekrataal, but that slot's raison d'etre is Evoke. I wanted another removal spell that could be a creature if I got flooded. Not that that happens often, with only 21 lands, but it's useful to have. It's mostly a sorcery-speed Terror.

[Sith_Happens]

The lord was a one-of. But yeah, the best one runs a mono-green deck full of fatties and ramp, but when I pointed out that some of their creatures were still rather inefficiently costed, they said that the ramp makes up for it. Which it does, to a point, but only so much, you know? The others do a white weenies type deck and a rdw-ish thing. I made the base of it for them out of what they had, but then they filled in the gaps with five and six drops. Just unsure what to do. The only deck that they consistently win against is my awful mono-blue mill that has virtually no creatures and not nearly enough counters. I'm going to try my only slightly less bad G/W landfall deck because as bad as it is, its still fun. The best things in it are Karametra and Baloth Woodcrasher.

Resuggesting suicide black. These legitimately seem like exactly the kinds of players who will keep thinking they were close to winning as long as you keep being low on life at the end of the game.

Believe me, I'd run Therapy if it were Modern legal. Now ... to go hound WotC about a reprint ... Like that'll ever happen ...

Oh man, Cabal Therapy would break Modern so hard.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Oh man, Cabal Therapy would break Modern so hard.

Only if they also reprinted Veteran Explorer. :P

[Zombimode]

This morning I made another jab at a Scornful Egotist deck. The result:

Creatures:
4x Scornful Egotist
4x Spire Golem
4x Errant Ephemeron
4x Ulamog's Crusher

Instant/Sorcery:
4x Energy Tap
4x Rush of Knowledge
4x Counterspell
4x Dispersal Shield

Echantments:
4x Sensory Deprivation

Lands:
24x Island


The all-common theme is no coincidence. It's supposed to be a Pauper deck.

Thoughts?

[Sith_Happens]

I know basically nothing about pauper, but that deck seems really, painfully sl–ALL HAIL THE GREAT LORD EGOTIST.

[Zombimode]

Yeah, against tournament level pauper decks this is probably too slow.

Early plays to relieve pressure are Sensory Deprivation (aka blue Sword to Plowshares), turn 3 Spire Golem, and Counterspell in a pinch.

Turn 4/5 marks the point where the decks picks up speed. Drawing 6+ cards, playing a Spire Golem for free, setting up next turn Ulamogs Crusher with counter spell backup AND having counter spell mana this turn seems good.

Targeted discard is of course a huge problem for this deck.

[IronicGentleman]

Only if they also reprinted Veteran Explorer. :P

I know you were joking, but if we're being serious, Therapy would do it on its own. It's balanced in Legacy, but Modern ...

Early plays to relieve pressure are Sensory Deprivation (aka blue Sword to Plowshares), turn 3 Spire Golem, and Counterspell in a pinch.

May I suggest Daze, in even more of a pinch? Helps you a bit with the discard problem as well.

Turn 4/5 marks the point where the decks picks up speed. Drawing 6+ cards, playing a Spire Golem for free, setting up next turn Ulamogs Crusher with counter spell backup AND having counter spell mana this turn seems good.

The insanity!

Targeted discard is of course a huge problem for this deck.

Isn't it always?

[ryuplaneswalker]

How do we know what jace is doing right now? And doesn't he have a job to be doing on Ravnica?

Because he is on the flavor text to Hedron Archive

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"You've begun to understand the hedrons' true purpose," said Ugin. "The Eldrazi can be imprisoned."
"And how did that work out last time?" asked Jace.

Think, about the characters involved in this conversation, Ugin dueled Nicol Bolas pre-mending.


Also, I am guessing since Ugin is on Zendikar, Presumably Sorin is there and..

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As the person who crafted the Hedrons, Nahiri went mad from the whispers of the Eldrazi, and is possibly serving them because this is Magic the Gathering and the good guys are not allowed to win post-mending.

[TurboGhast]

Because he is on the flavor text to Hedron Archive

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"You've begun to understand the hedrons' true purpose," said Ugin. "The Eldrazi can be imprisoned."
"And how did that work out last time?" asked Jace.

Think, about the characters involved in this conversation, Ugin dueled Nicol Bolas pre-mending.


Also, I am guessing since Ugin is on Zendikar, Presumably Sorin is there and..

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As the person who crafted the Hedrons, Nahiri went mad from the whispers of the Eldrazi, and is possibly serving them because this is Magic the Gathering and the good guys are not allowed to win post-mending.

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Innistrad basically ended well for all the heroic characters involved. (Except Garruk.) Return to Ravinca also ended with a heroic character solving the maze. The heroes winning is never completely out of the question in a story by design.

I feel like I need to refine my point...

[tgva8889]

My favorite story theory as of right now is:

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Sorin and Nahiri got into a spat because there aren't supposed to be vampires on Zendikar and they're Sorin's fault (or she thinks they are, but I'm pretty sure they're Sorin's fault). Sorin, as a result, turns Nahiri into Avacyn, because he's busy trying to fix Innistrad and she happens to be there annoying him. Nahiri/Avacyn then creates the Helvault because she's a good stone mage.

Also! I'm looking for a bunch of cards that represent items I could give to players in an RPG. Preferably single-use type effects, but longer-term effects work if they could reasonably wear off. I'm looking for things that might be items, like potions or spellbombs or stuff. Anyone got any obscure ones?

[IthilanorStPete]

My favorite story theory as of right now is:

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Sorin and Nahiri got into a spat because there aren't supposed to be vampires on Zendikar and they're Sorin's fault (or she thinks they are, but I'm pretty sure they're Sorin's fault). Sorin, as a result, turns Nahiri into Avacyn, because he's busy trying to fix Innistrad and she happens to be there annoying him. Nahiri/Avacyn then creates the Helvault because she's a good stone mage.

That's an impressive bit of tinfoil-hat level theorizing, but

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I'm pretty sure it's contradicted by UR stories. IIRC, Sorin's thoughts of Nahiri are that he doesn't know where she is. There's definitely nothing about her being Avacyn, which would be hard to avoid thinking about. I like the bit about the Zendikar vampires, though.

[tgva8889]

Actually:

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Based on the UR story in question, Sorin might know where Nahiri is, but it's clear that he didn't want to bring her to Ugin and didn't want to tell Ugin where she was or why she wasn't there with him talking to Ugin about remaking the hedron network.

Spoiler: The story bits in question

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Sorin saw Ugin's eyes wander to the ground, searching for his next thought. Sorin could see the next question forming—the logical next leap for Ugin's mind to take. He knew that next question would cut deeper. Sorin unconsciously counted the moments.

Ugin's eyes swiveled back to Sorin. "Where is the hedron mage? Where is Nahiri?"

The notion of shame had long since evaporated from Sorin. Over the millennia, Sorin's human frailties and neurosis had grown, blossomed, and withered away—he was as immune to regret as he was to old age. And yet, for the first time in years, an uncomfortable feeling grew within him, an unpleasant itch, the sense that he was responsible—solely—for something important going awry. It wasn't remorse exactly, just a dull, discordant echo ringing in the space where remorse had once resided.

"She is—not here," said Sorin, to no particular patch of air.

"That is clear," said Ugin. "I inquired about her whereabouts. Is she still on Zendikar? We should rejoin her, as soon as I am able to travel."

"I do not believe that she is there," Sorin said carefully.

Ugin's neck pleats fanned in irritation. "Speak facts, you vague thing. She's dead?"

"No," said Sorin. "She lives." The fuller extent of the truth was not something Ugin needed to know at this time, in Sorin's estimation. "I think I may know where she might be."

We DO know that Nahiri went off to find one of Ugin or Sorin after discovering that the hedron seals weren't working as well as she'd hoped, the Zendikari worshiped the Eldrazi as gods (or at least the stories of them) and that there were vampires on Zendikar that shouldn't have been there.

[Ionbound]

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I feel like that supports the 'Nahiri is a vampire' theory honestly. Sorin obviously feels just a bit bad about something and thinks he knows where Nahiri might be. He also clearly knows something he's not sharing with Ugin, but I feel like if he somehow turned a Planeswalker into a non-PW angel (did he steal a trick from Nixilis?), he would have used different, likely more evasive language. Where I feel what he says and thinks here is 'I did something and then Nahiri ran off to...Somewhere. I think I know where.'

[tgva8889]

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Based on the text I quoted, I suspect that Sorin actually knows exactly where Nahiri is, and that he knows she's not dead. It is also clear that he did something to Nahiri directly, because otherwise 1) he wouldn't have been so evasive and 2) he wouldn't have tried as hard as he did to get Ugin to help without Nahiri. If Nahiri just got mad or became a vampire, those aren't reasons for her to not still want to be on Zendikar or to not have already gone to Zendikar and helped out, helping her people or whatever. Especially since, on top of the Eldrazi, she knows that there's a super-powerful and very angry demon on that plane. Also, it's her home, and I don't think becoming a vampire would have prevented her from feeling strongly about Zendikar, given her objections to what Ugin and Sorin planned to use it for in the first place. We already know that vampirism clearly didn't stop Sorin from caring about his home; why would it change Nahiri?

It's pretty clear, at least, that Nahiri is alive in the sense that she is conscious and thinking. It is unclear whether or not she can go to Zendikar in her current state. That is why I don't believe she's a vampire. Even as a vampire, I can't imagine Nahiri wouldn't want to just come back to Zendikar and do her job. Thus, my belief is that there's got to be something that's keeping Nahiri from appearing before now, otherwise I'm almost certain she would have. I don't think vampirism would have been that thing; clearly not Sorin's vampirism anyways, since he clearly has no problem planeswalking.

Given the nature of Sorin's abilities, my guess is that either she somehow got trapped on Innistrad, or she's trapped on some plane we've never seen or been to yet. I'm not sure how, but her being Avacyn makes the most sense to me given that Avacyn, despite being a creation of Sorin, is mono-white. Also the appearance thing, but there's many possible explanations for that.

That's just why I believe what I believe.

[Fable Wright]

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Based on the text I quoted, I suspect that Sorin actually knows exactly where Nahiri is, and that he knows she's not dead. It is also clear that he did something to Nahiri directly, because otherwise 1) he wouldn't have been so evasive and 2) he wouldn't have tried as hard as he did to get Ugin to help without Nahiri. If Nahiri just got mad or became a vampire, those aren't reasons for her to not still want to be on Zendikar or to not have already gone to Zendikar and helped out, helping her people or whatever. Especially since, on top of the Eldrazi, she knows that there's a super-powerful and very angry demon on that plane. Also, it's her home, and I don't think becoming a vampire would have prevented her from feeling strongly about Zendikar, given her objections to what Ugin and Sorin planned to use it for in the first place. We already know that vampirism clearly didn't stop Sorin from caring about his home; why would it change Nahiri?

It's pretty clear, at least, that Nahiri is alive in the sense that she is conscious and thinking. It is unclear whether or not she can go to Zendikar in her current state. That is why I don't believe she's a vampire. Even as a vampire, I can't imagine Nahiri wouldn't want to just come back to Zendikar and do her job. Thus, my belief is that there's got to be something that's keeping Nahiri from appearing before now, otherwise I'm almost certain she would have. I don't think vampirism would have been that thing; clearly not Sorin's vampirism anyways, since he clearly has no problem planeswalking.

Given the nature of Sorin's abilities, my guess is that either she somehow got trapped on Innistrad, or she's trapped on some plane we've never seen or been to yet. I'm not sure how, but her being Avacyn makes the most sense to me given that Avacyn, despite being a creation of Sorin, is mono-white. Also the appearance thing, but there's many possible explanations for that.

That's just why I believe what I believe.

You fail to consider one last key point of evidence, from the time when Sorin found Ugin in the hedron cocoon:

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When Sorin first sees the hedron cacoon, he immediately reacts, almost panic-like. Specifically, "Sorin's hand went to the hilt of his sword. Lithomancy on Tarkir? Had Nahiri traveled here before him and bested the dragon? The oracle's visions had not warned him of any of this." Sorin seeing the hedrons causes him to not only think of Nahiri potentially having tracked down and killed Ugin (think about that for a second), but also to grab his blade. Presumably, for protection if she were to be here.

(Quoted directly from here.)

Why would Sorin consider it possible that Nahiri traveled to Tarkir if she was Avacyn, who both can't planeswalk and has no animosity towards Ugin?

[IthilanorStPete]

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Based on the text I quoted, I suspect that Sorin actually knows exactly where Nahiri is, and that he knows she's not dead. It is also clear that he did something to Nahiri directly, because otherwise 1) he wouldn't have been so evasive and 2) he wouldn't have tried as hard as he did to get Ugin to help without Nahiri. If Nahiri just got mad or became a vampire, those aren't reasons for her to not still want to be on Zendikar or to not have already gone to Zendikar and helped out, helping her people or whatever. Especially since, on top of the Eldrazi, she knows that there's a super-powerful and very angry demon on that plane. Also, it's her home, and I don't think becoming a vampire would have prevented her from feeling strongly about Zendikar, given her objections to what Ugin and Sorin planned to use it for in the first place. We already know that vampirism clearly didn't stop Sorin from caring about his home; why would it change Nahiri?

It's pretty clear, at least, that Nahiri is alive in the sense that she is conscious and thinking. It is unclear whether or not she can go to Zendikar in her current state. That is why I don't believe she's a vampire. Even as a vampire, I can't imagine Nahiri wouldn't want to just come back to Zendikar and do her job. Thus, my belief is that there's got to be something that's keeping Nahiri from appearing before now, otherwise I'm almost certain she would have. I don't think vampirism would have been that thing; clearly not Sorin's vampirism anyways, since he clearly has no problem planeswalking.

Given the nature of Sorin's abilities, my guess is that either she somehow got trapped on Innistrad, or she's trapped on some plane we've never seen or been to yet. I'm not sure how, but her being Avacyn makes the most sense to me given that Avacyn, despite being a creation of Sorin, is mono-white. Also the appearance thing, but there's many possible explanations for that.

That's just why I believe what I believe.

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Huh. That's very interesting wording, enough that it's a reasonable theory, not tinfoil hat-level at all. Does the UR from Khans where Sorin finds Ugin's bones mention Nahiri at all?

[Androgeus]

Adding to the current story based discussion

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My problem with turning Nahiri in to Avacyn is this quote from the Eldrazi trapping story.

He peered at Sorin.

"And Sorin, you of all people understand the necessity of balance."

This seems to me to be saying Sorin has already ensured that Innistrad's vampires won't kill all the humans. If it's actually Avacyn (and the helvault, which is either the basis or derived from Hedron technology) or some other measure that ultimately failed could be debated I guess.

[Duck999]

And some of the actual story:

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Nahiri lived among the Kor for many years. Eventually, she got bored, and retreated for solitude. There she stayed for many years, feeling nothing. She faded away. Then the Eldrazi broke free. She felt pain from it, awaking her from her sleep. This is when she calls for Sorin.

[TurboGhast]

My favorite story theory as of right now is:

Spoiler: Theory

Show

Sorin and Nahiri got into a spat because there aren't supposed to be vampires on Zendikar and they're Sorin's fault (or she thinks they are, but I'm pretty sure they're Sorin's fault). Sorin, as a result, turns Nahiri into Avacyn, because he's busy trying to fix Innistrad and she happens to be there annoying him. Nahiri/Avacyn then creates the Helvault because she's a good stone mage.

Also! I'm looking for a bunch of cards that represent items I could give to players in an RPG. Preferably single-use type effects, but longer-term effects work if they could reasonably wear off. I'm looking for things that might be items, like potions or spellbombs or stuff. Anyone got any obscure ones?

There are two whole cycles of spell bomb cards. Those aren't super obscure, however. The only potion cards in the game aren't legal in modern, so that might be obscure enough.

[Fable Wright]

Also! I'm looking for a bunch of cards that represent items I could give to players in an RPG. Preferably single-use type effects, but longer-term effects work if they could reasonably wear off. I'm looking for things that might be items, like potions or spellbombs or stuff. Anyone got any obscure ones?

They're not particularly obscure, but you might look at the Charm cycle, especially the Planar Chaos ones. Those in particular, and more generally all the ones before Alara block, appear to be a definite item that the caster is holding. Otherwise, consider Alchemist's Vial, Vial of Poison, Vial of Dragonfire, possibly Angelheart Vial, Elsewhere Flask, and Moonglove Extract. Mystic Compass may not be what you're looking for, as it's a permanent effect, but it is pretty neat as an item to give a party.

Otherwise, look at this for ideas. Astrolabe, Balm of Restoration, and Barbed Sextant jumped out immediately from the first page, and there seems to be a lot of things that could make for interesting items, like Colfenor's Urn and Codex Shredder.

[tgva8889]

You fail to consider one last key point of evidence, from the time when Sorin found Ugin in the hedron cocoon:

Spoiler

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When Sorin first sees the hedron cacoon, he immediately reacts, almost panic-like. Specifically, "Sorin's hand went to the hilt of his sword. Lithomancy on Tarkir? Had Nahiri traveled here before him and bested the dragon? The oracle's visions had not warned him of any of this." Sorin seeing the hedrons causes him to not only think of Nahiri potentially having tracked down and killed Ugin (think about that for a second), but also to grab his blade. Presumably, for protection if she were to be here.

(Quoted directly from here.)

Why would Sorin consider it possible that Nahiri traveled to Tarkir if she was Avacyn, who both can't planeswalk and has no animosity towards Ugin?

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It's entirely possible Nahiri could have visited Ugin before she visited Sorin, depending on the timeline. Ugin "disappeared" some thousand years ago, and Sorin has only gone looking for him now. The fact that he speaks of an oracle would lead me to agree with you, though.

I don't know if Sorin understands Avacyn; it's sort of unclear what sort of relationship they have, since they've never interacted "on screen." It's possible that Avacyn would (try to) kill Sorin upon seeing him because he's a Markov vampire. I also don't really know why Sorin would assume Nahiri has any ire towards Ugin; it must be because of whatever falling out Sorin and Nahiri had that he would assume such a thing. The fact that he assumes Nahiri might have slain Ugin is sort of a strange event in and of itself, since it implies things about Nahiri that none of our stories about her indicate. She doesn't really show any malice towards Ugin; she disagrees with his assessment, but not in a vengeful rage-type way. So overall that whole section just confuses me. I think Sorin is less afraid that Nahiri did something to Ugin and more afraid of having to confront Nahiri again.

I'm also not sure if Sorin knew where Avacyn had gone or waited on Innistrad until that whole mess cleaned itself up. I would assume he did, which would make the "Nahiri is Avacyn" theory not work. I imagine he'd be even more scared if Avacyn figured out she was a Planeswalker and up and left Innistrad, although then Sorin wouldn't know where to find her. Eh, whole host of problems with my theory now. I accept that it overall doesn't work.

That raises the other interesting question; did Nahiri helped Sorin on Innistrad? If so, maybe their falling out was because of something more intimate. That would certainly be awkward. I can imagine a conversation where Sorin and Nahiri are talking, and Nahiri questions him on why he would inflict vampirism on her plane when she did so much work to help him maintain the balance on his own world, they fought and Nahiri said something to the effect of "I never want to see you again and if I do I'll smite you where you stand."

None of these problems address my main concern, which is "whatever Nahiri is doing, why hasn't she come back to Zendikar to check up on the hedrons?" People seem to assume that she's not dead and thus still alive and capable of planeswalking, so why hasn't she gone to her homeplane any time in recent memory? She clearly cared enough about it to stand sentry for centuries, as well as argue with Ugin and Sorin about using it as a prison for the Eldrazi. It doesn't seem in-character for her to just forget about it; something must have happened to her that prevents her from going back.

Thanks for the suggestions, keep them coming! I found the Seals in addition to what's been mentioned. I might also use some auras, especially if I can find ones that function as sort of temporary effects.

[Sith_Happens]

Really, just go through all your artifact cards and a good portion of them will qualify.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Re : Spoilery stuff

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I have serious doubts about Sorin doing anything to Nahiri on purpose, Sorin is supposed to be the Black-Aligned Good guy planeswalker. I would guess that Avacyn was created when Sorin was an old-walker and had enough power to just create magical constructs at will and thus wouldn't really need Nahiri to do that, hence my idea that Nahiri is the one that turned evil, as we have/had several good-aligned white planeswalkers as of such and no evil ones and it has been a while since we had a white aligned villain in the setting not counting The Phyrexians since they were all five colors.

[tgva8889]

I'm asking more for the non-artifact cards, or the obscure ones I didn't think of.

[Re'ozul]

Just saw this again, and can't help but think how incredibly this could be as an eldrazi (eldrazi Walker?)
I know the idea is stupid even on a conceptual level, but it looks so awesome.

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[IronicGentleman]

Wooo! Lantern Control wins GP OKC! http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ern-2015-09-13

What's the playground's opinion on the deck?

To me it seems virtually invincible so long as the pilot knows what he's doing. Hate cards don't even really work!

The trouble is, of course, that the pilot needs an intimacy with the deck that no other build needs, as well as needing an incredible level of knowledge about the metagame.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Wooo! Lantern Control wins GP OKC! http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ern-2015-09-13

What's the playground's opinion on the deck?

To me it seems virtually invincible so long as the pilot knows what he's doing. Hate cards don't even really work!

The trouble is, of course, that the pilot needs an intimacy with the deck that no other build needs, as well as needing an incredible level of knowledge about the metagame.

The deck is very weak to Burn. Elsik got lucky in the quarter finals- he stole game one, which is like a 10% chance, and in game two his burn opponent had to mull to 4.

The deck is similarly weak to fast combo decks. It takes a little bit of time for the deck to get the lock online- time which Infect, Grishoalbrand, and Amulet Bloom can exploit if it doesn't have a specific opening hand.

It's a very difficult deck to play, but it's not invincible. Also, I don't think it needs more skill or knowledge than any other controlling deck at the moment.

But it is an excellent deck. Not very fun to play against. But I love it.

[Sith_Happens]

What's the playground's opinion on the deck?

I think it's far too close in game plan to a Stasis deck to in any good conscience be allowed to live. But we'll see, maybe it starts crumpling once people actually start hating for it and becomes a bit player anyways.

[IronicGentleman]

The deck is very weak to Burn. Elsik got lucky in the quarter finals- he stole game one, which is like a 10% chance, and in game two his burn opponent had to mull to 4.

The deck is similarly weak to fast combo decks. It takes a little bit of time for the deck to get the lock online- time which Infect, Grishoalbrand, and Amulet Bloom can exploit if it doesn't have a specific opening hand.

It's a very difficult deck to play, but it's not invincible. Also, I don't think it needs more skill or knowledge than any other controlling deck at the moment.

But it is an excellent deck. Not very fun to play against. But I love it.

He also 2-1ed Burn earlier, and didn't get lucky. The deck can keep burn off gas, and 'Skites help a ton.

Amulet is certainly a tough matchup, but, as Bob Huang pointed out, Lantern has hand disruption and adequate removal, making Grishoalbrand rather weak to it. Infect is just good against any slow deck, that's a given, though Lantern still has a chance if it gets the lock early, a hand disruption spell, and a Spellbomb.

I'm not saying any of those are easy matchups, but Lantern definitely has more than a 30% against them.

I, personally, think it does take more knowledge, simply because maindeck Surgicals and Needles mean that you have to know what you're up against to know what to aim at.