5e Multiclassing; Worth or not?

[Nishant]

So, I'm starting my own 5e campaign with some friends. I went ahead and said they were free to multiclass within the rules given, homebrew backgrounds, and if they can make a lore, create subraces as well. One of my players, my younger cousin, chimed in about the actual utility of multiclassing. Sure, it can make sense from a flavor perspective, but you can really do almost anything you want with the classes and variants already given, due to its toned down design. So, what is your opinion/experience. Are they worth it, what do they offer, etc.?

[Steampunkette]

Most of the strongest Nova or DPR builds are multiclasses. 2 levels of Fighter, Rogue, or Warlock are really common as well.

2 levels of fighter gets your wizard the ability to fling a 9th level and 8th level spell in the same turn. Toss in 2 levels of sorc and you can throw an 8 a 7 and a 6 in one round. Action Surge for 2 actions and Quicken that 6th level spell as a bonus action. Big badda Boom. Or if you're an evoker drop that 6 to a 5 and maximize it on the fly with your intelligence mod on the damage roll.

Oh, wait. Woops. Sorry. With 16 wizard and 2 Sorc you're an 18th level caster (for slots but not known) so you can go ahead and push that 8 and 7 up to 8 and 9, since you'll have a free 9th level slot. Just can't put a 9th level spell there. Sure it's not perfect, but if it can take 27d6+(int*2) and 60+Int to the face in one round without dying putting that much damage in it's face is probably what you're going to want to do.

Two Delayed Blast fireballs at 8 and 9 and a 5th level maximized fireball. All without so much as ruffling your party member's cloaks since you can sculpt the spell around them. Pretty badass stuff. Especially if the BBEG has minions or pets.

[SharkForce]

you can't quicken a spell and cast a non-cantrip spell in the same turn.

in any event, while i would agree that there is usually not much value in, say, a 10/10 multiclass, there *is* much to be had from multiclassing at certain break points with certain classes, and there is much to be gained from "splashing" certain classes.

of course, it isn't without cost either.

some example more full multiclass builds (ie not a 2-3 level dip) include 6 levels of paladin with 14 levels of sorcerer (good spellcasting, level 9 slots if not spells known, good melee ability, full armour, more spells known than a straight sorcerer, and a save-boosting aura, plus some healing, or rogue/monk (usually shadow monk + assassin. some prefer more monk, some prefer more rogue levels... there are a lot of break points you could choose, but most aim for not doubling up on evasion). i personally feel like there's a lot to be said for abandoning fighter like a sinking ship once you've got level 11 or 12 (depends how much you want that ASI), because there isn't much compelling in it beyond that point (unless you're a champion and expect to spend a significant amount of time at level 18 or above).

but basically, there's a lot you can do with multiclassing, though most of it comes from taking only 2-3 levels from the second class.

[Nishant]

What about, say, the Barbarian, or Warlock or ranger? I don't really see any synergy to go off of with Bear Totem, for example.

[SharkForce]

to multiclass into, or out of?

rogue can gain a surprising amount from a few levels of barbarian (the only rage bonus a dex-based rogue can't take advantage of is the damage bonus). barbarians can gain a fair bit from a 3 level fighter splash.

warlocks often stand to benefit substantially from fighter splash if they're a blade lock, or can gain quite a bit from a 3 sorcerer splash if they're a blast lock (a few more spells/cantrips, but mostly metamagic). i've also seen paladin both ways (that is, paladins with lock splash, and lock with paladin splash).

rangers... well, rangers mostly don't really have a ton of obvious stuff. still, can make a good multiclass splash for rogues. combat style, possible extra attack, medium armour and shield proficiency can be useful, and hunter's mark is pretty handy. still, i think you'll see less ranger multiclasses in general. mostly if you're going ranger, it's to go deep into ranger.

[PhantomRenegade]

Most capstone abilities are kind of underwhelming, most classes can benifit a lot more from a 1 or 2 level splash early than from their capstones, especially if the splash is utility focused rather than damage focused.

[Mjolnirbear]

Pally can also multiclass with bard. Some of the paladin's massive damage comes simply from the spell slots which he can use to power smites. My paladin4/bard3 has level three spell slots, and no level three spells known. But level 3 smites are strong...especially if you wait for a crit as I usually do.

Having more spell slots also can mean huge nova. Cast a smite spell, then smite on that same attack...it's a lot of dice. You'll never outdamage a fireball hitting multiple targets but your single target damage when it counts is massive.

Bards have great control spells too. Support abilities like inspiration can help a teammate. Cutting words can turn a crit into a normal hit. And all those skilllllllllls...

Paladin and rogue have a good synergy though a bit MAD.

It does depend on the class too. Druids? Don't bother, at least not if shapeshifting means anything to you. Though a dip into monk for wisdom to AC can make the difference between pain and glory for a moon druid and only sacrifices one level of shifting.

[CNagy]

Rangers are somewhat limited. They work best multiclassing into Fighters, Rogues, and Monks.

Monks are the easiest; a 4 level Ranger dip gets you a fighting style (as written, Dueling should work with martial arts,) and Horde Breaker (situational, but what in my experience is a fairly common situation, but an extremely rare extra attack that doesn't cost any actions), and an ASI. 3 levels if you don't need the extra ASI, and you get the 17th level Monk Monastic Feature ability.

On the flipside, Ranger multiclassing Monk is usually about taking 7 or 8 levels. You end up with Evasion way before a Ranger would normally get it. An extra attack in the form of martial arts is sorely appreciated. Shadow Monk makes for an incredibly dangerous Ranger scout.

Fighter and Ranger are both good for a 4 level dip. The next breakpoint for Fighter is 6th level, but that means missing out on Ranger's 15th level Evasion. On the flipside, there is no compelling reason to go past 8th level Ranger if you go past 4th. Still--4 levels is really good deal; extra fighting style, good archetype bonuses (and an extra 1 or 2 spell slot levels, depending.) Personally, I think Fighter gains more from Ranger than vice-versa, but it is still a good dip.

Rogue benefits from at least 5 levels of Ranger (2nd attack, Horde Breaker, some spells.) 7th is another good spot--disadvantage on all OAs against you is pretty sweet. If you need 6 total ASIs, then the 8/12 Ranger/Rogue split.

For the Ranger going Rogue, 7 levels is an obvious target (sweet, sweet Evasion). I'd go 12/8 Ranger/Rogue, because everyone loves ASIs. So let's talk about Volley and Assassination--talk about raining on someone's parade. Attacking from range makes it easier to get the drop on unsuspecting (hordes of) enemies. And by spending a bonus action first, you can kick it all off with a Lightning Arrow. And... uh, this part works according to the RAW but every one of those attack can be affected with Sharpshooter--the -3 to hit (thanks, Archery style) isn't so harsh when you've got advantage on all of the attacks thanks to the Assassin archetype. One of those hits will get you an extra attack with Horde Breaker, too, if any of the enemies are close enough to each other.

[BW022]

Are they worth it, what do they offer, etc.?

There are certainly less optimal or needed than in 3.5. Class abilities and feats are gained through class levels, so multi-classing has more definite drawbacks than previously. There are also backgrounds, sub-classes, and (more powerful) feats which can give some skills, spells, and abilities sufficient for backgrounds, flavor, or usefulness. Finally, in 5e, certain roles aren't so critical as in previous editions. Heavy armor isn't necessary for tanking, folks can heal naturally, etc.

In the long term, multi-classing is pretty much universally not optimal -- at 10th+, 1st or 2nd-level abilities gained from a multi-class are not likely worth the what you are missing out in terms of what you are missing out on via single classing.

This said, there are certain times when multi-classing multi-classing is useful. In small parties, low-level campaigns, or in specific campaigns... low-level dips might be helpful in keeping the character or party alive. If you only have three PCs, and one is a rogue, one a warlock, and one a wizard... having the warlock start with a level of cleric (war or tempest domain) might be extremely useful in allowing him to take heavy armor and weapons for tanking and get access to healing spells. Heck, the wizard might want to start with a level of bard or cleric for healing spells. Neither might be optimal by 10th, but it could certainly make a more survivable party needed to reach 5th.

Everything said... it doesn't really matter. Players should pick whatever class(es) they wish. They shouldn't be forced into being optimal. If the above party doesn't multi-class, then the DM should be aware they have a tanking problem, scale back some encounters, and/or allow the players to be creative -- hiring a fighter, using animals, ensuring they have surprise and using ranged attacks, buffing the rogue, etc.

[SharkForce]

There are certainly less optimal or needed than in 3.5. Class abilities and feats are gained through class levels, so multi-classing has more definite drawbacks than previously. There are also backgrounds, sub-classes, and (more powerful) feats which can give some skills, spells, and abilities sufficient for backgrounds, flavor, or usefulness. Finally, in 5e, certain roles aren't so critical as in previous editions. Heavy armor isn't necessary for tanking, folks can heal naturally, etc.

In the long term, multi-classing is pretty much universally not optimal -- at 10th+, 1st or 2nd-level abilities gained from a multi-class are not likely worth the what you are missing out in terms of what you are missing out on via single classing.

can't say i agree with this.

we still basically have more-or-less linear progression classes, and more-or-less quadratic progression classes. it sucks for a wizard to not get their next spell level. it sucks for a paladin to delay their aura. it doesn't really suck all that much for a fighter to delay their second or third use of indomitable.

[Mandragola]

can't say i agree with this.

we still basically have more-or-less linear progression classes, and more-or-less quadratic progression classes. it sucks for a wizard to not get their next spell level. it sucks for a paladin to delay their aura. it doesn't really suck all that much for a fighter to delay their second or third use of indomitable.

There's truth to this. Most casters don't want to MC but most martials can quite happily.

There are a bunch of key break points, like getting your second attack, even for martials. This can mean you want to get to level 5 (or whatever) before switching. Trouble with this is that you find yourself comparing the level 6 ability of your original class with the level 1 ability of your new class and sometimes it doesn't really make sense to switch. If the thing you really want is at level 3 of the new class then you can have a couple of barren levels.

A lot of the MC builds I see ignore this problem. They kick off properly at level 8, 12 or even 20. I see that as quite a big problem when playing. I want it to always be fun to level up my character, and to get cool new toys each level. I also don't want to have a weak character for a few levels, say if I've gone paladin 2 valour bard X and pick up my 2nd attack at level 8 instead of 5.

Then again one or two MC options are probably a bit too good. 2 levels in warlock gives you a ranged attack just as good as that of a single-class warlock of your level (or as good as a dedicated archer), for example. There's still a cost to that but I tend to think cantrips should scale with class level, just as extra attack does. It's weird how you can only do level 1 spells but can fire 4 EBs.

[HoarsHalberd]

Most of the strongest Nova or DPR builds are multiclasses. 2 levels of Fighter, Rogue, or Warlock are really common as well.

2 levels of fighter gets your wizard the ability to fling a 9th level and 8th level spell in the same turn. Toss in 2 levels of sorc and you can throw an 8 a 7 and a 6 in one round. Action Surge for 2 actions and Quicken that 6th level spell as a bonus action. Big badda Boom. Or if you're an evoker drop that 6 to a 5 and maximize it on the fly with your intelligence mod on the damage roll.

Quickening means you can only cast that spell and cantrips that turn. Bonus action spell means no level spells for the rest of the turn.

But yeah, full splits are rarely optimal, but can be fun and flavourful, whereas little dips can be very, very useful. Action surge, cunning action, darkness devil sight and armour proficiencies can really make a difference.

[Capac Amaru]

I'm playing a multiclass sorcerer/fighter.

Level 4 is a real slog.

I don't have the spells to compete with the wizards, or the damage to compete with the monk.

But with action surge I can pull off a once per long rest nuke (either damage, double burning hands, or double sleep) and second wind helps keep me up since the monk and I are basically the shield wall.


But at next level I finally get level 2 spells and extra damage dice on my cantrips... just 3000xp to go...

[Nishant]

I'm playing a multiclass sorcerer/fighter.

Level 4 is a real slog.

I don't have the spells to compete with the wizards, or the damage to compete with the monk.

But with action surge I can pull off a once per long rest nuke (either damage, double burning hands, or double sleep) and second wind helps keep me up since the monk and I are basically the shield wall.


But at next level I finally get level 2 spells and extra damage dice on my cantrips... just 3000xp to go...

Personally what I'm interested in is trying to figure oue a nice way to multiclass Totem!Barbarian with a Paladin. rather that use the spells, focus on divine smite type deal.

[JNAProductions]

Well, by RAW, you can Smite while Raging. Shouldn't really have too much trouble, barring being a bit MAD, but you can actually afford a lower Con stat by wearing Medium armor.

[Nishant]

I was actually wondering if I could neglect Cha, given the main use of the spells would likely go towards smiting, instead focusing on Str, Con, and Dex. Bear totem gives the damage resistance which is pretty nice, after all.

[JNAProductions]

You need at least a 13 to multiclass into and out of Paladin, but besides that, shouldn't be an issue.

[Nishant]

You need at least a 13 to multiclass into and out of Paladin, but besides that, shouldn't be an issue.

My Half-Orc barbarian, Karn is currently at Str20, Dex 14, Con 16, 10 Int, 10 Wis, and 13 Cha, so it works out. Not sure if those were overall good rolls or not, but that's what he is at level one.

[Angelmaker]

My Half-Orc barbarian, Karn is currently at Str20, Dex 14, Con 16, 10 Int, 10 Wis, and 13 Cha, so it works out. Not sure if those were overall good rolls or not, but that's what he is at level one.

These stats are over the top. Usually you start witha. 27 point buy build and no stat before race modifier is above 15. so for a level one this are kind of monstrous stats to have :)

@multiclassing: with a bit of mad, i am working on a barsorcerer. With draconic heritage from sorcerer and unarmored defnse from barbarian, he has an unarmored ac of 17, if i read the rules right, which is kind of fun. For a one level dip its ok, but his casting stat is not as good in the beginning, so not much room for feats.

Still, multiclassing allows for nice builds.

[Nishant]

These stats are over the top. Usually you start witha. 27 point buy build and no stat before race modifier is above 15. so for a level one this are kind of monstrous stats to have :)

@multiclassing: with a bit of mad, i am working on a barsorcerer. With draconic heritage from sorcerer and unarmored defnse from barbarian, he has an unarmored ac of 17, if i read the rules right, which is kind of fun. For a one level dip its ok, but his casting stat is not as good in the beginning, so not much room for feats.

Still, multiclassing allows for nice builds.

We tend to roll stats and go with it, but we allow point buy for those who like more stable results. Truth be told, I rolled higher, but I chopped int and cha down a bit to smooth the numbers a bit. I remember back in 3.5, my friend rolled a character with all negatives, but decided to role play it anyway. the DM gave him a homebrew feat called 'dumb luck' that randomly let him crit, or succeed a role, etc. it was pretty funny. He killed a dragon by tripping, smashing into a pillar, which broke onto the dragon, bringing the dragon onto a statue and stabbing it through the head.

That draconic heritage dip is a pretty neat idea, though. Nice boost for AC you would lose the capstone for barbarian, but that can still give you a maximum AC of 23 unarmored if you roll or stat up a certain way.

[SharkForce]

draconic sorcerer gives you an AC of 13 + dex.

barbarian gives you an AC of 10 + dex + con.

neither of them just gives you a bonus to AC. they just give different formulas. those formulas do not stack.

so, odds are good you're reading it wrong.

[Nishant]

draconic sorcerer gives you an AC of 13 + dex.

barbarian gives you an AC of 10 + dex + con.

neither of them just gives you a bonus to AC. they just give different formulas. those formulas do not stack.

so, odds are good you're reading it wrong.

I'd be willing to mix as a DM to 13+dex+con given intent. The rules only state that you can't stack unarmored bonus, so you can't combine the barbarian and monk feature together.

[SharkForce]

I'd be willing to mix as a DM to 13+dex+con given intent. The rules only state that you can't stack unarmored bonus, so you can't combine the barbarian and monk feature together.

those rules are designed to keep your enemies rolling on the d20 instead instead of needing near-impossible rolls to hit with. the intent and the letter of the rules are, in this case, consistent. you should not add them together.

[JNAProductions]

That is definitely not RAI. 5E was trying to avoid ridiculous numbers that 3.P had, so very few things actually stack.

[Nishant]

That is definitely not RAI. 5E was trying to avoid ridiculous numbers that 3.P had, so very few things actually stack.

I was just saying what I would do as a DM. He can't cast in a rage, which would likely still be his main source of damage. But thats a DM to DM, Player to Player thing.

Whats your favorite multiclass Idea, optimized or flavorful?

[PoeticDwarf]

I'm sure multiclassing is with some builds worth it. I saw my favourite build online.
Variant Human: 3 Assassin (later more levels in assassin) 5 Ranger (6 fighter is also possible).
Take colloseus slayer and the feats alert and sharpshooter.
He sneaks around from up to 1200ft and with +19 stealth (pass without trace and expertise) nobody can see him.
He shoots two arrows, auto crit (I think he surprises everyone with +19 stealth) first attack is 4d6(sneak attack)+2d8(longbow)+3(longbow)+10(sharpshooter) second attack is 2d8(longbow)+2d8(colloseus)+3(lonbow)+10(sharpshoo ter)

Roll initiative: He's got +8 so he's probably first, he shoots with adv. 2 arrows (300-1200ft no adv. or disadv.) He doesn't surprise but he does still 1d8(colloseus)+1d8(longbow)+3(longbow) and maybe +10(+3 to hit but still with adv.) and second attack 1d8+13 or 1d8+3

At higher levels with 20 dexerity he is really strong.

[Finieous]

In a suitable campaign, my next character would be a Battlemaster 11/Swashbuckler 9 with Shield Master and Sentinel.

[tieren]

I jumped into a campaign recently after many (many) years away from D&D to help fill in for someone and quickly rolled a Ranger based on my outdated experience. The group asked me to stay on as a regular, and I am now trying to decide how I would like it to progress.

I originally thought of multiclassing into nature domain cleric because I wanted something closer to my old greenman kit ranger, but the cleric in the group is already nature domain and I want to stand out more individually.

I decided to try to make a strong archer. I took Archery fighting style at level 2, and I am a variant human and the feat I took was sharpshooter. I am now looking at going 11 levels into fighter to get the extra attacks and battlemaster trick shots (precision attack, etc...), and a few levels into a war domain cleric for the war priest extra attacks and the +10 to hit channel divinity, but I am struggling with the cleric and ranger break points.

I was originally thinking ranger 5/fighter 12/cleric 3, but I don't get much from the 4th and 5th level in ranger, other than 2nd level ranger spells, as the fighter levels will give the extra attacks and ASI's.

Can anyone help me with advice and guidance?

[Mandragola]

It does probably make sense to go for extra attacks only from one source, or you end up with dead levels, so ranger/fighter probably isn't a great combo. And by the time your character would actually have 3 attacks either a pure fighter or ranger would have more than that, thanks to swift quiver or just being a fighter. My advice would be to pick one or do something like ranger/assassin, which seems like a decent way to do a bunch of damage. You can then take maybe 2-4 levels of fighter if you like, for action surge, then maybe an archetype and ASI.

[tieren]

It does probably make sense to go for extra attacks only from one source, or you end up with dead levels, so ranger/fighter probably isn't a great combo. And by the time your character would actually have 3 attacks either a pure fighter or ranger would have more than that, thanks to swift quiver or just being a fighter. My advice would be to pick one or do something like ranger/assassin, which seems like a decent way to do a bunch of damage. You can then take maybe 2-4 levels of fighter if you like, for action surge, then maybe an archetype and ASI.

What would you think of Ranger 3/ fighter 12/cleric 5 then? I'd get some more spells from the cleric levels (including war domain spells), not duplicate the extra attack benefit and still get 5 ASI's over the build like most non-fighters. The rogue class does not appeal to me personally and I am looking for more of a war build than an assassin.

(I am already ranger 3 so less than that isn't an option at this point)

I am also up to considering eldritch knight instead of battlemaster. I'd lose the superiority die for the trick shots, but I could use the true strike cantrip, weapon bond, and maybe with a ranger 3/fighter 15/cleric 2 build could use arcane charge to get to some interesting firing positions.