afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[Judge_Worm]

in complete mage, there is a illusionist spell that shows the caster the targets worst nightmare.

now, this is completely suicidal, but what would a caster see if they used it on:

Asmodeous.

Demogorgan.

The General Of Gehena?

They're immune to it. But if they weren't...
Asmodeus- himself, most likely. None in the hells are truly outside his control, and no demon could really challenge him. The forces of good recognize him as a cosmic balancer, the forces of Law have that neat little pact primeval, and the slaad are well slaad. Leaving only himself as the biggest threat to himself.
Demogorgan- I'd guess Lolth or Dagon. Or a mirror, or toothpaste.
General of Gehenna- everything.

The scariest one would probably be if it was somehow used on Primus or Io.

[JoeyTheNeko]

They're immune to it. But if they weren't...
Asmodeus- himself, most likely. None in the hells are truly outside his control, and no demon could really challenge him. The forces of good recognize him as a cosmic balancer, the forces of Law have that neat little pact primeval, and the slaad are well slaad. Leaving only himself as the biggest threat to himself.
Demogorgan- I'd guess Lolth or Dagon. Or a mirror, or toothpaste.
General of Gehenna- everything.

The scariest one would probably be if it was somehow used on Primus or Io.

looking through the book of vile darkness and monster manual 3 (for ultraloths.) neither asmodous, demogorgon, or ultraloths are stated as immune to mind affecting powers. so I don't see where this immunity is coming from.

even so, the spell just doesn't affect the target forcing a save if it's immune. the caster still sees what their worst fear is. regardless, I would want it answered.

[ShurikVch]

What's will happen if in the Region of Dreams/Nightmare Realms dreaming spellcaster with Lucid Dreaming and Oneiromancy cast spell which move to another plane (Plane Shift/Gate/...)?

[Smorgonoffz]

One question:
Sinc the abyss, being semi sentient and all, spawns an infinite variety of demons of which few exist for enough time to be know to the other planes, does baator being a plane of law and order posses a finite number of devils Evolutions?

[afroakuma]

Why do I feel like the questions get immensely more annoying when I take time off?

Do glooms (ELH monster) have any particular proclivities towards any Plane, or are they more of a Prime World thing?

Unspecified. Prime/Shadow, I expect.

How does Athar philosophy influence their everyday lives? With most factions I can easily imagine how their philosophy would color their perception of various adventures. The Athar dislike gods, aaand that pretty much seems to be the extent of their philosophy. They don't tear down religious buildings or slay angels or anything like that, so, how do Athar act that sets then apart?

The Athar believe that faith in the powers as divine beings as opposed to merely powerful outsiders with a superiority complex distorts the truth of the multiverse and takes people away from seeking rapprochement with the Great Unknown or recognizing that such a thing exists. Some want to tear down the powers, others are happy to exploit people of faith and/or break their faith in the gods. Still more search for truth, or try to bring truth to others. Above all, as a faction, the Athar stand for the principle that the powers are not the be-all end-all answers of the cosmos and invite others to join them in recognizing that the multiverse isn't fully known or quantifiable based on the principle that the powers are gods.

What's, exactly, happening when Nightmares use their Astral Projection?

They're entering the Astral Plane. If you're going to accept the fluff in the spell as the be-all end-all you're going to run into a much more immediate problem:

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane

I think I'm going to have to start calling this particular sin by a label or something, because it comes up an awful lot: the books are written from the perspective of humans and near-human races who live on the Prime doing things that are out of the ordinary, where the ordinary is "bog-standard Prime world expectations." As a result you get crap like this.

Lo, oh Fiend with the Hairdo Grandiose, what if any powers in the multiverse would be likely to organize a grand tournament, between teams of planewalkers, outsiders and other strange entities, for the sake of their own amusement?

Bah, whomever. Fighty gods.

Fires of Dis has the passage from Avernus to Dis as a portal inside Tiamat's lair.
The Manual of the Planes' formulation seems to indicate that the aforementioned passage is at the base of the Pillar of Skulls, outside Tiamat's lair whose entrance is nearby.
That annoys me... I can't decide what to choose. Any opinion for or against each specific interpretation? What's more coherent?

Reading over it, they don't really conflict. It's rather poorly written, but what it appears to say is that Tiamat's lair is near the Pillar of Skulls, which is near the access to Dis. Which can be in Tiamat's layer.

A) Assuming 3.5e, if an non-native outsider (who qualified) took the Human Heritage feat, would it become a native outsider or would it remain [Extraplanar] while on the prime?

Doesn't give the Native subtype, so if it's Extraplanar on the Prime, the feat won't do a thing.

B) Where would Dismissal send a creature with more then 1 home plane (a la Planar Chasuble): The first native plane, the second, or randomly between the two?

Which one's the first one? I would assume random chance of either or.

Does this mean if the outsider was already on one home plane, but failed its will save, might it just stay where it was like the spell had failed?

Still a 20% chance of flicking a target somewhere random, but yes, if the spell succeeds, the creature is already on its home plane and has no impetus to be otherwise. The spell's text does not, after all, specify anything beyond "away."

C) Where exactly does a banishment send an Outsider?

Given that it claims to be a more powerful version of dismissal (despite, RAW, only functioning on your home plane), it should fling them home, throwing them off course 20% of the time.

Even besides the planar destination, does it end up in a random direction or the same place with respect to the planes (assuming they are coterminous)?

Don't follow.

I was thinking. Souls that worshipped a god don't go to the plane itself, they go to the god's realm. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense for the exemplar races to encourage atheism?

Given the amount of function that the powers bring to the table, it would be tremendously wasteful to encourage primes to ignore them. It would take some very selfish and narrow motives to do that sort of thing. You know, devil-style.

in complete mage, there is a illusionist spell that shows the caster the targets worst nightmare.

I am not familiar with this spell. Name?

What's will happen if in the Region of Dreams/Nightmare Realms dreaming spellcaster with Lucid Dreaming and Oneiromancy cast spell which move to another plane (Plane Shift/Gate/...)?

Nothing, really. A dreamer doesn't actually cast spells within the Region of Dreams; while they might "plane shift" or open a "gate," what they experience is an alteration of the existing dream to conform to this new information.

Sinc the abyss, being semi sentient and all, spawns an infinite variety of demons of which few exist for enough time to be know to the other planes, does baator being a plane of law and order posses a finite number of devils Evolutions?

We assume so, yes.

[Evolved Shrimp]

I am not familiar with this spell. Name?

Phantasmal Strangler, on page 113 of Complete Mage.

[Jowgen]

Hello, hope you're well, I got an assortment of questions (all from a 3rd ed perspective) I was hoping to get some answers to, if you're willing

Question 1: Locking away a dangerous thing

Lets say you have a greatly powerful and mysterious artifact (who's power is only exceeded by it's mystery...), that seriously messes with planar boundaries in its vicinity.

What would be some safe places to lock that thing away?

The best I could think of would be near Sigil's spire, since that ought to reliably shut the thing's powers down as far as I understand it, but there's little to stop someone from walking in and just taking the thing. Could one expect the Rilmani to be willing to keep the thing locked up good?

Question 2: The power of Holy Water

What are the precise properties of both Holy Water in general and the holy water from the blessed fields of Elysium? I recently read an adventure from Dungeon magazine where a bunch of planar players are having a bidding war for the multiverse's greatest source of diamond, and in it Elyisum offers constant access to their holy water, which is written to sustain living creatures like food. So now I'm wondering about what other powers this particular holy water and holy water in general might have had attributed to it throughout the ages

Question 3: Nuclear chess

I know questions about the lower planes and the alignment war aren't on your list of favorite things, so I get it if you ignore this one. I'm thinking of putting together a high-level one-shot quest where the PCs learn about some powerful macguffin that can be used once to basically tear a big hole in a plane, killing thousands and permanently opening the location up to extraplanar intrusion. The goal would be to acquire that macguffin, make their way to some significant location on the lower planes and kamikaze themselves to deal a powerful blow to the forces of evil, potentially shifting the balance in favor of one alignment or another.

So the question is, what would be an effective location to target? If your goal was to weaken cosmic evil as a whole, and you had one magical nuke to use on one place, what would be the best spot to put it for maximum damage?

As is, I'm thinking somewhere on Baator, since that might a) throw a wrench into the finely oiled cogs of their evil machinery, and b) leave them vulnerable to Abyssal attacks, maybe shifting the blood-war in the demon's favor; but "somewhere on Baator" isn't quite specific enough for my taste. So yeah, any input you could offer?

[Evolved Shrimp]

I'm thinking somewhere on Baator, since that might a) throw a wrench into the finely oiled cogs of their evil machinery, and b) leave them vulnerable to Abyssal attacks, maybe shifting the blood-war in the demon's favor

If you want to weaken evil, why would you want to shift the balance in the Blood War? If one side wins, wouldn’t they then be free to menace the rest of the multiverse?

[JoeyTheNeko]

Why do I feel like the questions get immensely more annoying when I take time off?

I am not familiar with this spell. Name?

I double checked my books and I had choosen the wrong one.

the spell is manifest nightmare, on page 130 of heros of horror.

likewise, a spell known as manifest desire is on the same page, that shows the caster the targets greatest desire, which has a similar question of what would asmodous, demogorgan and the general of gehenna and the caster see if cast on them and it worked?

[Jowgen]

If you want to weaken evil, why would you want to shift the balance in the Blood War? If one side wins, wouldn’t they then be free to menace the rest of the multiverse?

Mainly it's how the Lords in the Abyss constantly fight among themselves. Even if they defeated Baator (which I'm not sure is possible), Demogorgon & co would -like always- first worry about getting rid of each other before they went after something else in the multiverse. A lot of relative power would change hands, with some players maybe dying for good or others really prospering; but the way I see it, it's just not in the nature of the Abyss to be able to function under one Asmodeus-like leader.

Second, it's how certain deities would be affected. Baator being over-run with Demons seems like something that would be mighty inconvenient for Tiamat; which might shift the balance in the Dragonfall war in Bahamut's favor. Provided she doesn't get hit too hard in the frey, Lolth might well prosper from all of this, but I doubt she could pose a real threat to Corellon even is she became supreme ruler of the Abyss.

Still, there is probably a long list of things I am missing here (horrible ramifications, better alternatives, etc.); hence why I beseech the wisdom of the great skin-kite-maker.

[enderlord99]

I think the most effective place to blow up if you want to weaken Evil would be the Town in the Center.

[afroakuma]

Phantasmal Strangler, on page 113 of Complete Mage.

Doesn't say what they said it says.

Question 1: Locking away a dangerous thing

I'm quite certain I've covered this before, on more than one occasion. Is there a reason the normal answers won't work, and is that reason that you do not want the normal answers to work?

The best I could think of would be near Sigil's spire

Pfft no. In addition to making it harder to secure and guard, the rilmani will be on you fast to take the thing, chuck it anywhere else and in all likelihood give you a sound beating for your arrogance. Do you think they want people looking at the Spire like some sort of cosmic landfill for magical hazardous waste?

Question 2: The power of Holy Water

What are the precise properties of both Holy Water in general and the holy water from the blessed fields of Elysium?

Holy water in general is described in the SRD. The "holy water" from the adventure you describe is a distilled product of the River Oceanus, known as the waters of Oceanus, which acts as a restoration spell and removes hunger when imbibed. If you read the adventure then I'm sure you saw the sidebar.

I'm thinking of putting together a high-level one-shot quest where the PCs learn about some powerful macguffin that can be used once to basically tear a big hole in a plane, killing thousands and permanently opening the location up to extraplanar intrusion. The goal would be to acquire that macguffin, make their way to some significant location on the lower planes and kamikaze themselves to deal a powerful blow to the forces of evil, potentially shifting the balance in favor of one alignment or another.

That sounds like an incredibly dumb plan.

So the question is, what would be an effective location to target? If your goal was to weaken cosmic evil as a whole, and you had one magical nuke to use on one place, what would be the best spot to put it for maximum damage?

As is, I'm thinking somewhere on Baator, since that might a) throw a wrench into the finely oiled cogs of their evil machinery, and b) leave them vulnerable to Abyssal attacks, maybe shifting the blood-war in the demon's favor; but "somewhere on Baator" isn't quite specific enough for my taste. So yeah, any input you could offer?

Certainly: it's a bad idea. Unbalancing the Blood War invites devastation across the whole of the Upper Planes. Demons don't need to be globally organized; they are infinite in number and the only thing that keeps them from bringing ruin to the heavens en masse is the fear of getting hit from the side by the devils. Topple the balance in such a fashion and evil prevails. Blasting a hole in reality is a tremendously poor idea; if it connects anywhere, the seepage of evil into that place will have terrible repercussions, and if it connects to "nowhere" the consequences for the Great Wheel might be much worse.

In short: nukes are bad. There's fallout.

[JoeyTheNeko]

Doesn't say what they said it says.

I double checked my books and I had chosen the wrong one.

the spell is manifest nightmare, on page 130 of heros of horror.

likewise, a spell known as manifest desire is on the same page, that shows the caster the targets greatest desire, which has a similar question of what would asmodous, demogorgan and the general of gehenna and the caster see if cast on them and it worked?

sorry for copy paste, but it seems you missed my corrective post.

[Jowgen]

I'm quite certain I've covered this before, on more than one occasion. Is there a reason the normal answers won't work, and is that reason that you do not want the normal answers to work?

Well, none of the normal approaches I found dealt with a dangerous thing that specifically messes with planar boundaries in a poorly understood way. I figured maybe you knew a particular place somewhere that isn't normally a good pick to lock things away but has, like, especially reinforced planar borders or something; which made it useful for this particular case.

Pfft no. In addition to making it harder to secure and guard, the rilmani will be on you fast to take the thing, chuck it anywhere else and in all likelihood give you a sound beating for your arrogance. Do you think they want people looking at the Spire like some sort of cosmic landfill for magical hazardous waste?

Huh, I did not figure the Rilmani to be so uppity; but I suppose the "no littering" thing very much makes sense

Holy water in general is described in the SRD. The "holy water" from the adventure you describe is a distilled product of the River Oceanus, known as the waters of Oceanus, which acts as a restoration spell and removes hunger when imbibed. If you read the adventure then I'm sure you saw the sidebar.

Wow. I know you're good at this, but remembering a specific thing from an obscure source like that... you're good, dude. Like, real good. Either way, Holy Water is different than that stuff and boring; got it.

In short: nukes are bad. There's fallout.

Fair points, thank you for taking the time.

[Shalist]

I figured maybe you knew a particular place somewhere that isn't normally a good pick to lock things away but has, like, especially reinforced planar borders or something; which made it useful for this particular case.

Carceri (Plane of Imprisonment), Ravenloft, and Athas all come to mind, with all sorts of ruffled feathers and interesting ramifications for each. Also, I believe the flow (phlogiston) is cut off from the planes entirely.

Sigil is also firmly isolated from planar travel (aside from the portals, of course), though one could argue that leaving it there would be kinda like lighting a bag of poop on fire and ringing the Lady's doorbell...

Pandemonium has been mentioned before as the multiverse's largest haystack / dumping ground for troublesome evil artifacts; perhaps yours would be prevented from loitering in one location long enough to cause any real trouble. Naturally, any statistically significant increase in the number of insane people, or long lost evil artifacts reemerging, throughout the multiverse would be pure coincidence.

---

@ afroakuma: Is there any simple way to prevent something from leaving the flow? Alternately, are there any particularly resilient structures / creatures / etc. that are unable to leave it?

[afroakuma]

Well, none of the normal approaches I found dealt with a dangerous thing that specifically messes with planar boundaries in a poorly understood way.

So, option 2 then.

I figured maybe you knew a particular place somewhere that isn't normally a good pick to lock things away but has, like, especially reinforced planar borders or something

"Especially reinforced planar boundaries?" What kind of arbitrary specificity are you hunting for? Are you trying to get me to say Ravenloft or the Demiplane of Imprisonment or something foolish like that? Because no given plane has "especially reinforced" anything. You're basically pulling at straws. If you want the thing to not do its thing, lock it in a fancy box that cancels out the effect, then put it in one of the usual terribly obnoxious places.

Huh, I did not figure the Rilmani to be so uppity; but I suppose the "no littering" thing very much makes sense

Hardly uppity. It's their homeland. They don't want your garbage.

@ afroakuma: Is there any simple way to prevent something from leaving the flow?

No.

Alternately, are there any particularly resilient structures / creatures / etc. that are unable to leave it?

No. There are some things that would of course prefer not to, and the phlogiston itself cannot be brought within a crystal sphere, but it's exceptionally good at getting away when you try to force it through the sphere wall (read: you're not going to keep something out by somehow catching phlogiston and containing it inside the thing you want to exclude). And if the object one is trying to sideline messes with planar boundaries, odds are good that someone will want to remove it from the Flow before anyone can discern whether or not there will be consequences of it being there.

[JoeyTheNeko]

so afro, what's your best guess as to the greatest desire and worst nightmare of asmodous, demogorgan, and the yugoloth leader?

I suppose I'm curious as to the hearts desire and greatest nightmare of primus and the slaad lords, too.

[Dalmosh]

What is the relationship between the god Hades, and the Altroloth Charon? Is this Charon the same being as the Charon from Greek mythology?

Were there Kytons in Baator before the Baatezu became established there?

[Tzardok]

Charon is similar to the one from Greek mythology insofar as he is a ferryman on the styx; to be exact, he is the leader of the merranoloths who ferry people over the styx and has codified their rules. It is possible that he has become part of Olympian mythology and that he has build an alliance or relationship with Hades, but his origin lies outside of the Olympian pantheon.

[Jowgen]

Got some pretty straight forward questions about Book-shaped artifacts.

The three in question are the Demonomicon, the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness.

My main question is: what information do we know for certain to be contained within their respective pages?

From what I managed to find, the two Evil ones serve as a bit of a catalog of the different types of fiend, but in the BoVD's case I recall some text implying it holds a great deal more of that.

Second question, where did the Book of Exalted Deeds come from originally? The BoVD has a very detailed origin story that goes so far as to cover different copies and variations, but I couldn't find anything on its good counter part.

Lastly, bit of an afterthought question, but what language(s) ought they respectively in?

EDIT:

Are you trying to get me to say Ravenloft or the Demiplane of Imprisonment or something foolish like that?

I would never dare employ such a tasteless tactic, and I can assure you I meant no disrespect. My thoughts went along the lines of somewhere like Carceri, but you know, without the part where it can just be entered and left by any old plane-shift spell (lest I really missed something in MotP). Regardless, I digress on the matter.

[ShurikVch]

Got some pretty straight forward questions about Book-shaped artifacts.
...

Note: you forgot about one more book...

[atemu1234]

Note: you forgot about one more book...

Yeah, that needs to show up more in theoretical optimization.

[afroakuma]

What is the relationship between the god Hades, and the Altroloth Charon? Is this Charon the same being as the Charon from Greek mythology?

Yep. They don't have much relationship, really.

Were there Kytons in Baator before the Baatezu became established there?

Quite possibly. We don't know a great deal about the kytons, and they like it that way.

My main question is: what information do we know for certain to be contained within their respective pages?

Supposedly the Demonomicon articles from Dragon are excerpted from the book. It also includes "a treasure-trove of lore on demons and the Abyss, containing the personal names of certain demon lords and extensive descriptions of the lords and their layers. It even lists certain evil individuals from history and outlines what sorts of demons they became after their deaths, and details a hierarchy of demon types beginning with the wretched manes and terminating in the mighty lords and princes of the plane" and a great many spells.

The Book of Vile Darkness is just choc-full of evil everything. Specifics aren't given. Its good counterpart is similarly vague.

Second question, where did the Book of Exalted Deeds come from originally?

Unspecified.

Lastly, bit of an afterthought question, but what language(s) ought they respectively in?

None of them stipulate any particular language. Do as you like.

[Dalmosh]

How are the Seldarine and the Olympian Pantheon affected by occupying the same coterminous location of Arvandor?
Or is that not canon?

[Jowgen]

Note: you forgot about one more book...

Not really forgot, I just figured that asking about the content of a book that's literally infinite would be a bit of a moot point

Yeah, that needs to show up more in theoretical optimization.

I'll say; I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned.

Care for a thread on it?

-books-

I figured the Demonomicon was the best fleshed out in terms of content. And it's to a personally satisfying degree, which is great.

Shame there isn't much on the BoVD. It's like they a 5 minute teaser for something epic that then never comes out. As per it's title-stealing splatbook, the symbols on the cover represent "a darkness so deep that it shames hell itself"... what in the name of Asmodeus could that possibly be?

As to how there is no lore on the Good counterpart of an iconic evil thing...

[afroakuma]

How are the Seldarine and the Olympian Pantheon affected by occupying the same coterminous location of Arvandor?
Or is that not canon?

That's... very not canon.

I'll say; I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned.

Probably because, as a major artifact, it's not conventionally obtainable. Anyway, that topic is very much not for this thread. I'm already inclined to skin people for that.

Shame there isn't much on the BoVD. It's like they a 5 minute teaser for something epic that then never comes out. As per it's title-stealing splatbook, the symbols on the cover represent "a darkness so deep that it shames hell itself"... what in the name of Asmodeus could that possibly be?

As someone who has been researching that, you don't want to know. And I do not mean in a D&D canonical sense. I mean in a "humans are awful" sense.

But really, what do you want it to contain? It's a reference work for evil whatnottery. It's got evil stuff.

[GilesTheCleric]

Q#?: I asked previously if the planescape setting contained all of the other settings, and was told yes; however, I forgot about spelljammer, which I think also contains all the other settings. In terms of describing the setting of a deity, is there any functional difference between planescape and spelljammer, or would they both work equally as well for describing a setting that contains all deities?

[Tzardok]

Officially, Planescape and Spelljammer are an united setting; Spelljammer models the Prime Material Plane, while Planescape models the other planes. Most other settings are worlds in Spelljammer, which is included in Planescape.

[afroakuma]

Q#?: I asked previously if the planescape setting contained all of the other settings, and was told yes; however, I forgot about spelljammer, which I think also contains all the other settings. In terms of describing the setting of a deity, is there any functional difference between planescape and spelljammer, or would they both work equally as well for describing a setting that contains all deities?

Spelljammer represents the Prime Material Plane. Planescape represents all the planes of existence. It's the larger net by far.

[Mr Adventurer]

Apologies if this has been asked before - please let me know if so.

Is the Phlogiston (that is, the Prime) canonically infinite? Or is it merely "no edges known to have been found"? (Or if neither, what?)

Are Crystal Spheres generally so vast that they contain star formations? I.e. when the inhabitants of a planet look up and see stars, are those stars generally as we would understand them from a modern standpoint? If there are cases where this is not true, what are the stars the inhabitants see?