Blood Bowl ITP III: Where You Either Win or Blame Nuffle... Sometimes Both

[Wraith]

Blackhearse Boneheads 1 - 0 The Hammersjurg Destroyers

A tense and entertaining game where the Norse managed to defend right up until turn 15, despite the early loss of their Yhetee to Badly Injured and yet another Thrower to the icy embrace of death.
I could complain that I was treated unfairly by the dice, having Dub-Skull'd (or single-skull rerolled into single skull) on 5 separate occasions, but aside from those two deaths I received relatively few Defender Down or Stumbles attacks and Unpronounceable was robbed of a 1st half touchdown by a Snake Eye'd dodge roll, so it was about even overall. It only went to pieces due to the combined effect of my cage standing too close to the sidelines AND a Dub-Skull by a werewolf that turned a potential chain of blocks into 3 of my guys getting surfs in one turn - until that point, I was in reasonably control of the situation, but the undead capitalised incredibly.

==========

Goldson's Golddiggers 2 - 0 The Band That Feeds

Went about as well as I expected, and then was systematically shat upon by the dice roller.

Just couldn't get out of the starting blocks - I threatened a turn 3 touchdown, and the Dwarfs immediately took apart half of my team and closed in for the kill, leaving me with 8 players in the second half after grinding me back towards my own End Zone and scoring in turn 8.

The second half went worse; Unpronounceable barely even needed tackle, getting me down to 5 players and wondering if he could possibly have scored any quicker as I failed GFI after GFI.
The last drive was just insult to injury - despite having 7 players on the pitch vs 11 dwarfs, Sweltering Heat only took one of *MY* Linemen and THEN the game decided that I hadn't suffered enough and promptly Badly Injured my AG4 Thrower with a thrown rock, meaning that my vague attempt at a 2 turn touchdown was dead before it even begun.

Ah well - no particularly lasting injuries, at least, so at least I now have a reasonable team on the bench for another league, another day. Well played on both accounts sir, I'll get you next time I promise

[Unpronounceable]

Thanks for the games Wraith, I'm fully expecting the luck to come around next time we meet :P

4 Level ups on the Gold diggers, which I guess is what 5 injuries will do for you. Got a +Agi Blitzer but otherwise more guard/MB

The Boneheads however got a double on my Wrestle ghoul. I'm not sure what to take, my default plan was strip ball and probably still will be as I can't see much worth taking on strength. Either guard (but have 3 soon to be 4 pieces already) or maybe stand firm to make him annoying to move away? Any suggestions please?

[Wraith]

Ghouls are your fastest players by a long shot, so I might consider Tackle, or maybe Diving Tackle? Good for running up to people and preventing them from running away from you.

I might have said Dump Off, if you can find anyone that you could reliably give the ball to; having Wrestle is good for GETTING the ball but not so much for holding onto it, as you're still going to end up on the ground at some point. Dump Off is good because you get the attacker down too, so you're keeping the ball in your team's possession AND stopping the other guy from threatening it with a tackle zone.

Getting him Guard now and then Side Step later could be a lot of fun - Side Step is better on a Dodge player most times, anyway, and you'll struggle to get that combination on another player.

...Yeah, I got nothing. The double doesn't do anything for you, your best skills are in General/Agility so I'd stick with one of those.

[Silfir]

I'd take Guard anyway - having it on mobile pieces is golden, and you don't have many. (Mobile pieces. Not that four is a lot of Guard, relatively speaking. You can always use more!) Or, since he's supposed to be doing quite a lot of blitzing, give him Mighty Blow to make that more fun. (And make your opponent despise him all the more.) (It has a real application in that it can result in the dedicated ball carrier of the opponent's team taking an extended nap after dropping the ball.)

Trouble with Side Step or Diving Tackle in my view is that Wrestle makes those skills just a little bit less effective - might as well take advantage of the double. Best non-double in my mind is Tackle, in case you have none and will be facing a team with dodging ball carriers, like Amazons. (There's also Strip Ball, but I'm liking it less for having tried it on my own ghoul these days.)

[LCP]

I'd take Guard anyway - having it on mobile pieces is golden, and you don't have many. (Mobile pieces. Not that four is a lot of Guard, relatively speaking. You can always use more!) Or, since he's supposed to be doing quite a lot of blitzing, give him Mighty Blow to make that more fun. (And make your opponent despise him all the more.) (It has a real application in that it can result in the dedicated ball carrier of the opponent's team taking an extended nap after dropping the ball.)

I'd argue against both of those. Mighty Blow works at cross-purposes with Wrestle, which avoids injury rolls. And Guard is great on mobile pieces, but Ghouls are AV7 players without regen on a team with no apothecary. Ghouls don't like being used to give assists unless everyone in contact with them can then be blocked away, and the only point of Guard is to give assists when you're in contact with multiple opposing players. Plus with Mummies and Wights Undead teams are not short on access to Guard.

I agree with Wraith - that's just an annoying player to get a double on. Ignore it and go with your planned skill progression anyway.

[Silfir]

Mummies don't really belong in the same sentence when discussing Guard here - they're basically stationary. The only other mobile Guard pieces are your two Wights, who are slower and lack Dodge. I guess I wouldn't load all my ghouls up on Guard, but some should have it.

I don't agree that Wrestle and Mighty Blow are at cross-purposes at all. Who do you blitz with Wrestle pieces? Pieces that already have Block. For those, it doesn't matter whether you have Block or not. (Same for pieces that have Wrestle. Block doesn't help get injuries there either.) (I've seen this notion frequently taken to the extreme - forgoing Block or Wrestle entirely to start with - on Chaos Beastmen. Not the first, or the second, but one specifically built for causing injuries. Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Claw, order not fixed - and then, possibly, Block.)

As for ghouls being vulnerable - in my eyes, not having Guard doesn't make them less vulnerable. Just less useful. It's not like you use a Guard ghoul like you would a Guard mummy.

[Wraith]

I don't agree that Wrestle and Mighty Blow are at cross-purposes at all. Who do you blitz with Wrestle pieces? Pieces that already have Block. For those, it doesn't matter whether you have Block or not. (Same for pieces that have Wrestle. Block doesn't help get injuries there either.)

I see what you're getting at. I disagree with your logic as I don't only attack Block pieces with a Wrestle player.

Block+Mighty Blow still works on non-Block players, who are the overwhelming majority in any sensible League. Wrestle+Mighty Blow does not, you're still trying to get Defender Down/Stumbles and there are skills like Tackle that a) make your Block more effective and b) have further uses in stopping people from Dodge-ing away easily.

There's no 'right' answer, it all depends on what role you want the Ghoul to have. Between the Wight and Mummy killers and the Zombie LoS fodder, I believe that their role should be optimising their manoeuvrability, ball handling and the other utility skills that others struggle to get access to.

Besides, if there's any justice in the world then the player in question will get irrevocably fed to Rakzog and Varak Break'Eadz in his next match so it's all a waste of discussion anyway....

[LCP]

Mummies don't really belong in the same sentence when discussing Guard here - they're basically stationary. The only other mobile Guard pieces are your two Wights, who are slower and lack Dodge. I guess I wouldn't load all my ghouls up on Guard, but some should have it.

From my perspective as someone who plays primarily a bash style, Guard is a cumulative thing. It adds up even if it's not on the speediest players, and having it on multiple slow players gives you similar board coverage to one faster player.

What's more, if you're in a position where only your Ghouls can deliver Guard assists... your Ghouls are your fastest players. So that means no-one else can reach, which means a Ghoul has to do the blitzing too. And this is the Wrestle Ghoul, who should probably be the one doing that.

I don't agree that Wrestle and Mighty Blow are at cross-purposes at all. Who do you blitz with Wrestle pieces? Pieces that already have Block.

Sure. And with Mighty Blow I like to blitz pieces I have a strong chance of scoring an injury roll against - ideally pieces without Block where I have Block myself. That's the conflict I'm seeing.

Mighty Blow comes into effect when you make an injury roll. Wrestle removes one of the results that grant you an injury roll. It's a fairly base-level conflict.

As for ghouls being vulnerable - in my eyes, not having Guard doesn't make them less vulnerable. Just less useful. It's not like you use a Guard ghoul like you would a Guard mummy.

I agree it doesn't make them more vulnerable - I just think it's a skill that's at cross-purposes with their vulnerability. To get the best use out of Guard you want to be marking multiple opponents at once. To get the best use out of your Ghouls you want to be minimising the amount of time they spend getting clobbered.

[Silfir]

Sure. And with Mighty Blow I like to blitz pieces I have a strong chance of scoring an injury roll against - ideally pieces without Block where I have Block myself. That's the conflict I'm seeing.

Mighty Blow comes into effect when you make an injury roll. Wrestle removes one of the results that grant you an injury roll. It's a fairly base-level conflict.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to repeat the exact point you've made before.

Like I said, it's not about creating a piece to blitz with for the purposes of injury. It's about taking a piece that's already doing a lot of blitzing and giving it some extra kick. It's the same reason you would pick Tackle, except Tackle only requires a normal and is only useful against pieces with Dodge, so I'd take the opportunity to get Mighty Blow first.

To get the best use out of Guard you want to be marking multiple opponents at once. To get the best use out of your Ghouls you want to be minimising the amount of time they spend getting clobbered.

Well, the best way to do that would be to park them in the reserves box. That's not going to win you matches.

As long as my ghouls are alive, I prefer to give them the skills that I think are going to have more use in more circumstances. Like you said, Guard becomes better the more players have it. I don't see why that shouldn't include ghouls, and specifically the Wrestle ghouls that are going to take shots at ballcarriers from time to time and end up in the thick of it as a result, or have the reach to get assists in the right place at the right time. It's not that they're the perfect players to have it, it's that it's the best skill they can pick up with a double (next to Mighty Blow), and in my eyes it's worth taking. That ghouls aren't going to keep having lots of skills for infinity is no reason to load them up on sub-par skills.



Before we spend any more time repeating our points at each other, though, probably best to let restless undead shamble in peace.

[LCP]

I'm not sure why you felt the need to repeat the exact point you've made before.

Like I said, it's not about creating a piece to blitz with for the purposes of injury. It's about taking a piece that's already doing a lot of blitzing and giving it some extra kick. It's the same reason you would pick Tackle, except Tackle only requires a normal and is only useful against pieces with Dodge, so I'd take the opportunity to get Mighty Blow first.

Sure, but you're paying for that extra kick. A doubles skill increases your TV by more than a regular one, and here it's being used to less effect than on a non-Wrestle piece that might have regular access to MB (and therefore also bring the pain for cheaper). Obviously having MB is better than not having MB, but it's TV efficiency that I'm thinking of here.

Well, the best way to do that would be to park them in the reserves box. That's not going to win you matches.

That's just reductio ad absurdam. Obviously there are other things they want to be doing at the same time as not getting hit. But most of those things involve the ball, not going toe-to-toe to grant assists.

Guard's not a terrible choice. I certainly think it'd be better than MB. But I still think there are skills from the ordinary skill list that I'd pick first for a Wrestle Ghoul.

[Silfir]

Sure, but you're paying for that extra kick. A doubles skill increases your TV by more than a regular one, and here it's being used to less effect than on a non-Wrestle piece that might have regular access to MB (and therefore also bring the pain for cheaper). Obviously having MB is better than not having MB, but it's TV efficiency that I'm thinking of here.

I see nothing TV inefficient in a piece that's going to blitz a lot having Mighty Blow, whether for 20k or 30k.

That's just reductio ad absurdam. Obviously there are other things they want to be doing at the same time as not getting hit. But most of those things involve the ball, not going toe-to-toe to grant assists.

Well, you've usually already got a ball handler ghoul or two to pick up the ball once it's on the floor and keep it once it's in their hands, with Block and Sure Hands and such. The Wrestle ghoul's job is to get it on the floor in the first place. They can do so by blitzing the ball carrier directly - or by providing assists.

This is not a case where you choose for one piece to have Guard over another - it's the choice between having one more piece with Guard or, quite simply, not. I don't think the mummies and wights are enough, I think ghouls can put the skill to great use, and I think that still holds true for a Wrestle ghoul. You think differently - that's perfectly valid. Probably best to leave it at that.

[Qwaz]

The Boneheads however got a double on my Wrestle ghoul. I'm not sure what to take, my default plan was strip ball and probably still will be as I can't see much worth taking on strength. Either guard (but have 3 soon to be 4 pieces already) or maybe stand firm to make him annoying to move away? Any suggestions please?

See what you've done now

[careem soda]

Hey Tasroth, what times are good for you for the KO game? I'm not available until 23:00 GMT on weekdays, as I am in GMT -5, however I'm free most of the weekend. What day is best for you?

[Wraith]

See what you've done now

Now I'm kinda hoping he takes Multiple Block, just to upset everyone.

[LCP]

Yeah, I'm changing my vote to Hail Mary Pass. Or Multiple Block, that's good.

[Unpronounceable]

See what you've done now

Meh, we'd only got to 17 pages, I thought the thread needed some debate adding ;)

[Unpronounceable]

Sure. And with Mighty Blow I like to blitz pieces I have a strong chance of scoring an injury roll against - ideally pieces without Block where I have Block myself. That's the conflict I'm seeing.

Mighty Blow comes into effect when you make an injury roll. Wrestle removes one of the results that grant you an injury roll. It's a fairly base-level conflict.

The only problem I see with that logic in the current league is that you can probably count the number of non-block pieces currently in the league on one hand as it's a skill pretty much worth taking on every piece and all the teams have 2 seasons of Xp now. So whether he has block/wrestle is almost moot point only defender down/stumbles matter for injuries.

Anyway I think I'm going to go for guard, can never have enough guard.

[Tasroth]

Hey Tasroth, what times are good for you for the KO game? I'm not available until 23:00 GMT on weekdays, as I am in GMT -5, however I'm free most of the weekend. What day is best for you?

Honestly, I can be pretty flexible. However since I'm a bit busy over the next few days, a 23:00 GMT start would probably be easiest for me. Not sure I can do tonight, but I can be around tomorrow at about that point.

[Unpronounceable]

Wymblidon Warpstoners 3 - 2 A communist party.

A very fun game, thanks Careem.

The Communists won the toss and elected to receive, the ball had maximum scatter and landed just on the Necromantic teams side of the LoS. An early attack of bad luck however saw the Communists star player, Nekbrekerekh, double skull himself on a particularly pointy goblin leaving him stunned. This allowed the Rats to recover the ball and form a cage up one flank. Using sacrificial goblin screens, and thanks to a few Ko'd Communists, they managed to stall to turn 7 before scoring.

The Communists came straight back however with a well played 2 turn touchdown thanks to the fast werewolf. Good marking left only a thin green line infront of the werewolf who easily blitzed his way through the goblins to score.

The half wasn't over yet and the Warpstoners finally achieved a thrown teammate touchdown thanks to Swatstump the +Agi goblin

--

The second half, the Rats received and quickly caged up near the LoS, the Communists moved in to block the cage and it looked like a protracted grind was about to happen. However the rats managed to blitz away a lone zombie on one cage corner and nearly the entire team managed to get through the gap and run deep into the undead half, a long way from their slow Golems and Zombies. However the Wights and werewolves were still a threat and the rats ran the ball in for a 3rd touchdown in short order.

The Undead now had 5 turns to score 2 goals, however somehow the sacrificial goblins managed to stall the Communists so that they didn't score till turn 16. It was costly though with only a half dozen warpstoners left on the pitch. Thankfully no injuries (well except goblins but they don't count).

Thanks again for the game Careem!

[Wraith]

Some high scoring games this week, are the remaining teams going to top 5 touchdowns in one match?

Ms. Dot's Nurse Academy vs. Papa N's Storytime Crew - Still no sign of Ivellius? Another game to forfeit?

Kleptoquarterbacks vs. Smashers of Sotek - SaruSama has already said that his internet is out for the next week or so, so I'll validate that as I roll the day over. Thank you again for the update, sir.

Black Ribbons vs. California Skulls - LeSwordfish has been asking, and as far as I've seen Luzahn hasn't answered. Has there been any word further?

Deadline is this Monday, remember! I mean, I'm not in any rush to face the Grudgebringers, but it'd be good to know if the wheels are a-turnin'

[LeSwordfish]

Nothing from Luzahn, though i'll admit i've made no effort other than that in the thread.

[Neon Knight]

Nothing from Luzahn, though i'll admit i've made no effort other than that in the thread.

Ditto for my Standard League game with him.

[Wraith]

Come to think of it, I haven't heard from Manticoran either. While I would assume that Ivellius has chosen to drop out of the league, please remember to let me know for sure if you're unable to get in touch with your opponent as I don't want to make an incorrect assumption later on.

[Luzahn]

Hey, sorry for my elusiveness, I've been busy enough lately that some things have been falling by the wayside. I'll be available for the rest of the day today, as well as afternoons/evenings throughout the week.

[LeSwordfish]

Okay - afternoon for you will be quite late for me, I think. How does Monday afternoon (for you) sound for our game?

[Luzahn]

Okay - afternoon for you will be quite late for me, I think. How does Monday afternoon (for you) sound for our game?

Sounds good to me; I'll be available from around 2:30 onward monday.

[LeSwordfish]

What timezone is that? I'm in BST+1.

[Luzahn]

What timezone is that? I'm in BST+1.

I should be -5.

[Neon Knight]

Hey, sorry for my elusiveness, I've been busy enough lately that some things have been falling by the wayside. I'll be available for the rest of the day today, as well as afternoons/evenings throughout the week.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have a fairly difficult time finding a space for our game, sir. I'm back to college and my schedule for the week is a wee bit front loaded. I'll try and see if I can find a slot to play in. Sorry to hear you've been busy; right now I can certainly sympathize.

[Wraith]

....Crap.

So, in haste I went ahead and advanced the day with what I knew last.... which was 2 and a half hours before Luzahn's return. Apologies to Luzahn and LeSwordfish, I saw Neon Knight's response to be the last one and it never occurred to me that it was a different conversation.

On the one hand it doesn't greatly effect the rankings, but on the other I've cost the Black Ribbons a game. Luzahn, the day-changing process is irreversible but if you wish to get in touch I shall do whatever I can to make it up to you.

Calender for Week 12:
Wheeeeeeeeee! (Qwertystop) vs. Wymbildon Warpstoners (Unpronounceable)
papa N's Storytime Crew (Ivellius) vs. Smashers of Stoek (Maethirion)
Champions of Dread (Devmaar) vs. California Skulls (LeSwordfish)
Ms. Dot's Nurse Academy (Manticoran) vs. Throwaways and Throwers (Shishnarfne)
A Communist Party (CareemSoda) vs. Okami Ye Faithful (Silfir)
Kleptoquarterbacks (Sarusama) vs. Something Ratten in Den. (Neon Knight)
Black Ribbons (Luzahn) vs. Spartans of Khorne (Brother Oni)
The Scaretoon Network (Wraith) vs. Grimnir's Grudgebringers (LCP)

Games to be completed by: Monday 07th September

This week features a Necromantic-Mirror-Match and a Chaos Dwarf/Khemri grind, both games I would very much enjoy seeing. Good luck everyone!