Blood Bowl ITP III: Where You Either Win or Blame Nuffle... Sometimes Both

[Qwaz]

Since all previous ones have been ruled as 0-0 draws, I'd prefer this one follow the same rule. I made multiple attempts to try to get ahold of him, and was unable to, and it was set as a 0-0.

We've always done the 2-0 thing in the past - it makes sense to me that if one player doesn't attempt to make contact, they should forfeit the game.

Agree with LCP.

This was discussed in detail in the last thread. 0-0 if both parties can't make it to the game but both are trying. Full 2-0 forfeit, with both mvps & winnings if only one is trying or able to make the game.
I know it's a bit rough if someone's got internet problems...etc but if I was in the position of having the problems I would expect to be forfeiting my games. Honestly the loss of a BB game is likely the least of my worries if Im having such problems that I cant find time for a game in two weeks.

To do any less encourages people to runn and hide from potentially difficult/dangerous games.

As far as I can remmeber the previous 0-0 draws in the rookie league have been from time expiring with no word from either party on the state of play????
I don't think there have been any no shows in the others so far have there?

[LCP]

Manticoran's case is a little exceptional IIRC, in that they were both posting in the thread trying to get hold of their opponents, but Clarkson thought he was playing someone else.

[Silfir]

Clarkson's had two 0-0s in a row, though as far as the match against Ivellius goes both sides were MIA (or was the match actually played? Neither player posted anything), and in the case of his match against Manticoran he did post in the thread, as LCP said, stating he had confused Manticoran with Maethirion. (Which is not completely implausible.) The match didn't seem to come to pass after that - certainly Manticoran didn't post again before the deadline. (We can really only go by what goes on in the forum.) So I don't think it was unfair, from Wraith's perspective, to give him the benefit of doubt for that one. Part of the point of giving people the benefit of doubt is that you don't have to keep giving it, though.

That result would be mildly unfair for Manticoran, but no one appears to have cried any amount of tears for the two amazons who died in my hard-fought 1-0 against the Darkworlders last season (in which I only walked away with the MVP), who then proceeded to grant 2-0 forfeits (with two touchdowns and two MVPs worth of SPP) to two thirds of the league, so I think it's within limits. There are no truly fair solutions to a coach's absence - the only fair result is if all matches are actually played out. The thankless task of the league commissioner (or his deputy) is to choose the least worst option.

With all that said, this would be an opportune time to hear from Clarkson again. Or Ivellius.

[Manticoran]

Barring that, we could also consider looking for a replacement, which is usually not that hard.

[Brother Oni]

Barring that, we could also consider looking for a replacement, which is usually not that hard.

I don't think the Cyanide interface will let you swap a team out during an already running league - you'll have to abort the league first.

[Wraith]

I made multiple attempts to try to get ahold of him, and was unable to, and it was set as a 0-0.

I wish to make the process of running the league as transparent as possible, so firstly I apologise if you feel that you feel hard done to, if that is the case.
However, as a couple of people have pointed out, whatever troubles you had getting in touch with your opponent you didn't directly tell me that was the case. Had I known then I could have mediated or, if necessary, ruled a forfeit. As it stands.... I just update the tables and occasionally click the "Validate" button, I'm not in a position to constantly monitor the Steam and Forum traffic of everyone involve in the League, y'know?

With that in mind,this is a formal reminder to everyone in the Rookie League - if you're having trouble tracking down an opponent, then please just let myself or Silfir know through Steam or Forum PM's. We don't bite, and we're happy to help out as best we can. Otherwise, we kinda have to make a guess and hope for the best!

As for the other situation, I think it should be scored as a 0-0.

Noted.

As far as I can remmeber the previous 0-0 draws in the rookie league have been from time expiring with no word from either party on the state of play????
I don't think there have been any no shows in the others so far have there?

Correct. And this is why I am asking now - I'm definitely here, able to play and respond, but I don't know what Clarkson's situation is. Don't get me wrong, if he can let me know his Internet is crapped out then we all know it's definitely not his fault and 0-0 is appropriate. If not, I kinda need to work out where to draw the line between "absent for a game" and "probably not coming back" not just for me but for the games that he might be missing thereafter.

I don't think the Cyanide interface will let you swap a team out during an already running league - you'll have to abort the league first.

Sadly, correct.

======

Okay, so there's opposition on both sides - I genuinely appreciate the input from everyone so far, so thank you very much.

As it stands, I'm inclined to follow the course of action that I wait until the end-of-day deadline and hope to play Clarkson before that occurs.
If that proves impossible I will rule my game as a draw because, though I don't want to sound arrogant, I think that my team is in strong enough position to come back from a draw and it would would also leave both teams in roughly the same position that they are now (currently vying for 'about' 3rd place) without giving either of us any particular advantage over those other teams that are creeping up in 4th and 5th.
After that though... Well, missing two games in a row would be very unfortunate, but a third would have to count as a forfeit, if that's what it came to.

Am I approaching a reasonable resolution? Is there anything else that should be taken into account? Again, please talk to either Commissioner if there's something you'd like to see happen and we'll do our best to work it out.

[Manticoran]

I don't think the Cyanide interface will let you swap a team out during an already running league - you'll have to abort the league first.

99.99% this is wrong, considering that we do it in the Big Crunch on a fairly regular basis. Now, that's not to say I know HOW they do it, but they do.

[Qwertystop]

So, LeSwordfish: Weekdays will presumably still not work. Does this Sunday work?
Alternately, Friday I'm available a few hours sooner.

[Silfir]

Well, this would be already Clarkson's third missing game in a row - if indeed the 0-0 you put for him against Ivellius was one with both players absent.

I think it's right to file this under "conflict of interest", which means you're only a player in this context, and as a player you absolutely have the right not to insist on the 2-0 forfeit and accept a 0-0 draw instead. (Provided Clarkson doesn't show up and offer a reasonable playing time for a match.)



Also, one of the commissioners of the Big Crunch just got back to me on the site chat, and it looks like we haven't been looking closely enough:

Silfir: I have a quick question about the Cyanide client
Silfir: Is it possible to replace a team mid-season?
TravelScrabble: Yes
TravelScrabble: You just boot the team and accept the replacement the rest is automatic
TravelScrabble: However, don't try to replace two teams at once that gets messy
TravelScrabble: Best way is usually to wait until the new team applies so that you can boot the old one and accept the new one right away

EDIT: Addendum:

TravelScrabble: No problem, I forgot to mention the reason its best to wait until the new team has applied is this: if you boot one team and have nobody to replace them for a couple of days and then another team also leaves the league (accidentally or on purpose) the league will become a mess

Which means we could totally have replaced the Darkworlders midway through last season. It's an option on the table - but obviously it's still much preferable to have Clarkson finish the league properly, if he can at all make it happen!

It's an important thing to consider for any lurkers that might still be hanging about the place - if you wouldn't mind filling in for a coach who has to drop out (or goes MIA), make yourselves known so we know who to turn to!

[LeSwordfish]

So, LeSwordfish: Weekdays will presumably still not work. Does this Sunday work?
Alternately, Friday I'm available a few hours sooner.

Friday sounds great for me. I'll add you on steam - just drop me a line as soon as you're around.

[Neon Knight]

Hammersjurg Destroyers 1 - 0 99 Ways to Die.

Wraith to chose to receive, and started moving the ball forward in a fairly standard fashion. I managed to sneak in a blitz from the rear with a Pestigor and knocked it lose, and from there the drive descended into a fair amount of chaos, with both sides picking up the ball and then losing it again and again. The ball meandered over to the left side of the pitch where it was eventually knocked off the sideline and throw onto the other-side of the pitch, where both sides had few pieces. A Pestigor and Berserker started struggling for the ball, ending in the Norse's favor when the Pestigor double skulled on a blitz to get the Zerker away from the ball. The Norse got the ball down the pitch a bit further before it came loose once more. With one Norse turn left to score ahead of them, a Nurgle Warrior tried to blitz a norseman off the ball and bring his Disturbing Presence into play; he failed the GFI, and then the Norse made the handoff despite Disturbing Presence and ran it in to score in their last turn. The Nurgle's last turn of the half was uneventful save for a failed vanity pass.

On the Nurgle's offensive drive, the weight of Kick was felt by a deep landing for the ball. The Nurgle began blocking and taking up positions as a Pestigor trundled into the backfield for the pickup, killing a lineman who is now a Nurgle Rotter and the team's latest addition. From there, though, the half went poorly as a Pestigor and Nurgle Warrior ended up surfed off the right side of the pitch as the cage formed up on the left side. Now outnumbered by the Norse, the cage was flattened against the sideline and further casualties including KO'ed Nurgle Warriors made the Nurgle situation desperate. Eventually the ball carrier was also surfed as he was horribly outnumbered, and the ball scattered to the Norse goal line. Although they got the ball up the pitch thanks to some pass play from their resident Elfzerker, a handoff failed and set the score at 0-1 while what felt like the entire Norse team barely succeeded in pushing over Old Age, Beast of Nurgle, by pouring all their blocks on him.

Well played to Wraith. That first half was really close and tense. The second half really went south for me after you committed to the right with assists and your blitz to get the surf, but the deep kick combined with slow Nurgle vs. speedy Norse movement made it work and then I was outnumbered, outGuard'ed, and eventually outblocked.

[Brother Oni]

Meddling Insects 5 : BC Mirka 0

Scoreline says it all, I think.

[Qwaz]

5/7 Games played in the standard league already and the week was only advanced a couple of days ago....no messing around for you guys!

[Qwaz]

If anybody watched that match, any advice for me, aside from uninstalling the game?

I wasnt watching the game but i've heard you voice problems with elves quite a bit and apart from playing against them more which we talked about before It might be worth rolling an elf team (pick your favourite flavour) and put it in the the Open league (advantage that it's us you're playing against) or the Naggaroth open league (Advantage of nearly always being able to find a match).
Finding what you like to do as an elf team , or what you find frustrating as an elf team should help you play against one

[Brother Oni]

I wasnt watching the game but i've heard you voice problems with elves quite a bit and apart from playing against them more which we talked about before It might be worth rolling an elf team (pick your favourite flavour) and put it in the the Open league (advantage that it's us you're playing against) or the Naggaroth open league (Advantage of nearly always being able to find a match).
Finding what you like to do as an elf team , or what you find frustrating as an elf team should help you play against one

I think the 5-0 pasting has pretty much sealed my fate of being forced to play elves to figure out how they work (Shishnarfne managed to steal the ball off my player while in a cage and return it 24 squares for a touchdown on his final turn ).

On the plus side, it was my first game in 3 matches where the interface didn't screw up on me. On the down side, I was 2-0 down on turn 3, despite receiving at the start of the match (Shishnarfne mentioned that a Blitz was a free touchdown for Wood Elves and I'm inclined to agree).

Edit: Periodic Players has now applied for the Open League.

[Silfir]

How do you usually set up against elves?

[Brother Oni]

How do you usually set up against elves?

Typical staggered zig zag:

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That said, I don't usually set up like this if I'm receiving, hence that technical 1 turn TD off a Blitz being my fault.

Shishnarfne also suggested a wide spread for the three LOS players against an opposing Big Guy (ie with space inbetween them), with my own Big Guy with Guard in the middle.

Part of the reason I'm having trouble is the conflicting advice I'm getting - if I put pressure on the enemy team, they sneak through, steal the ball and score (Thufir and Devmaar demonstrated that). However if I cage up and don't put pressure on them, they out manoeuvre and shut my cage down, knock the ball loose, steal it and score then (Shishnarfne).

I've been watching cknoor's videos on various people's suggestions and his style of play is so alien to me. I can see why he plays the way he does (and it obviously works), but I'm still working on translating that to an anti-elf defence.

[Silfir]

That setup seems... not exactly optimal. The outermost players can be blitzed inward to create free space for receivers to run through, but it's close to the sideline, may necessitate a 1-d block, and doesn't offer that much free movement into your backfield. But it looks like it wouldn't be terribly hard to block the leftmost or rightmost player on your LOS, blitz another, and run players through the middle.

How about this instead?



This is lifted straight from How to Beat Elves. Which I think you might want to read again, even if you have already, and talk about specific parts that you have trouble with - whether the article doesn't go deep enough or, in your opinion, is plain mistaken, or in what ways it doesn't cover the issues you've been having. I felt that the article managed to more or less prepare me for the abject horror that is playing against elves, but of course every coach is different.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily use anti-agility defense setups on offense just because of Blitz. Every time Blitz isn't rolled, you want to be in position to punch those puny line elves in the face with enough players to make three knockdowns (hopefully leading to KOs or casualties) happen. The rest of your players should still cover the halfway line such that a blitz or dodges are needed for a Blitz to work. (Note that a Blitz really only works out to become a "100%" touchdown if not just one, but five elves run around your lines to form a cage around the one elf who is set to catch the ball. A singular Wardancer should not be able to win the defensive TD outright.)

Note that if the elves kick short against a slow, grindy bash team, in hopes of rolling Blitz!, they're typically shooting themselves in the foot in the 10/11(?) cases they don't roll it. The purpose of the early-taken Kick skill on an elven team against the bash sides is to kick deep to pull the play apart, to force the bash team to rush backwards to protect the ballcarrier and make their path to the endzone so long that a stall might keep them from getting there at all. Kicking short is the YOLO approach - suitable for if the elves have decided on an "everyone against the cage, all the time" strategy for their defense anyway. Which is technically not a bad thing for you.

The trouble, as you've noticed, is that that approach is hell to defend against. In theory, if you position well, the "get that ball" approach should make it more likely for the elves to get their heads smashed in with failed dodges or getting punched in the face by the players they're marking or trying to trip up. But in practice, if you leave the slightest (and I mean the slightest) opening, an elven coach will pounce on it and your chances of winning are basically extinguished. The second slip-up loses the match. It's not even that the elf coach has the easier task; it's that he gets a couple of chances to cause you problems and you only have to slip up on your positioning once, and the slip-ups very rarely even look like they are slip-ups. And sometimes, you don't make a slip-up at all and succumb to straight-up elf hax. That's what makes playing against elves so supremely frustrating - you can't make a mistake, but the elves can. And mistakes in positioning are easy to make and hard to find and stamp out.





One thing I have noticed in the Spartans of Khorne v Okami Ye Faithful match is that you often put players in contact for no apparent purpose but to have a player in contact. (I.e. not to provide an assist.) This is generally a bad idea. It can be a good idea, too, but not for the simple reason "I'm the bashy team, so I'm looking for a fight". You do, but you want a fight on your terms, whenever you can get it. If the elven team is dead-set on getting the ball broken out of your cage, they need to get in contact themselves, and you can exploit that ruthlessly. If they play a disciplined elf stall, you do want to get some players into contact, but never the cage corners, and you should try to do it in such a way that the amount of 2d-for blocks you allow is minimized. ("How to Advance" in the article I linked above can explain this better than I can.) (If you give an elf team - or any team - a lot of beneficial blocks for free, they can overpower you even if you're playing the big bad orcs.)

Lastly, it might help if you provide some of the replays of recent anti-elf failures.

[Ivellius]

I'm actually here! Played CrookedVulture (not sure if that's his name on here or not) and his exquisitely named rats.

Just kinda forgot, honestly, and haven't been around for the new thread. But whoever I was supposed to play last week never contacted me, either, so...I dunno. I'm around, though.

And it has been answered, but you can absolutely replace teams mid-season. The League might initially look wonky but it'll eventually sort itself out (I found this out a few months ago).

[Brother Oni]

Yay, found another bug. Multiple Block and Stab on the ball carrier is not a good idea as the game locks up after determining the ball scatter.

That setup seems... not exactly optimal. The outermost players can be blitzed inward to create free space for receivers to run through, but it's close to the sideline, may necessitate a 1-d block, and doesn't offer that much free movement into your backfield. But it looks like it wouldn't be terribly hard to block the leftmost or rightmost player on your LOS, blitz another, and run players through the middle.

How about this instead?

Spoiler

Show

While I acknowledge the weakness in the centre, it's why I usually put a big guy with Guard front and centre. Your perceived weakness of the outermost players being blitzed in also exists in your proposed remedy (which I recognise from the BB Tactics anti-elf page), hence why he's usually a ST4 piece or the player in front of him has Guard.

Can I ask your opinion on this set up which I've seen occasionally? I'm not 100% sure I've got it right though:

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The trouble, as you've noticed, is that that approach is hell to defend against. In theory, if you position well, the "get that ball" approach should make it more likely for the elves to get their heads smashed in with failed dodges or getting punched in the face by the players they're marking or trying to trip up.

In my experience, punching elves requires luck with the dice, something that I've had very little of this season.

One thing I have noticed in the Spartans of Khorne v Okami Ye Faithful match is that you often put players in contact for no apparent purpose but to have a player in contact. (I.e. not to provide an assist.) This is generally a bad idea.

I thought this was called marking? If it's not, then how do I mark players?

Lastly, it might help if you provide some of the replays of recent anti-elf failures.

If you like (Dropbox links):

SBK versus Euphonic Cadence
SBK versus Leapers of Loren
SBK versus Team Stabbery
SBK versus Team Hippy

I can't vouch for quality of play as the game goes on due to frustration issues or just plain giving up.

[Neon Knight]

Something Ratten in Denmark 1 - 1 Papa N's Storytime Crew.

The first drive started with the Nurgle team choosing to receive. A deep kick put the ball near the sideline, and the Nurgle team, after some blocking (including Badly Hurting a Linerat on the LoS,) the pickup failed and the ball bounced off the sideline. The Nurgle team got a break, though, when it was thrown in on their goal line. The Rats rushed down the pitch and set up a screen; 8 turns of screening and back and attempted breakthroughs followed. Numerous times the ball carrier was blitzed by Rat pieces (admittedly often by a Wrestle Gutter Runner throwing 2 die against) and emerged unscathed. While the Nurgle team did advance the ball down the pitch, the half ended with the score at 0-0.

In the second half, the Rats snatched the ball with their thrower after it landed deep on their goal line and Blitzed down the left side. The Nurgle collapsed onto the left side and almost pinned the Rats against the sideline, but the Rats broke out the rear and ran like hell for the right side. Only a lone Pestigor could keep up with the Gutter Runner, and his Blitz didn't manage to knock the Side-Stepping Gutter Runner down. The Runner dodged in a touchdown the next turn, roughly 3-4 turns into the half.

5-4 turns is somewhat tight timing for a non-agility team touchdown, but the Nurgle pressed forward as the Rats screened. First a push on the left side of the field was fended off, but a quick handoff saw the ball switch to the center of the pitch. The ballcarrier was open, however, and the Guard Gutter Runner helped my Blodge Gutter Runner get a 1 die block against the no skills ballcarrier. Push rerolled into Push. Nuts. Next turn, a pair of Pow results knocking down both the Blodge and the Dodge Gutter Runners, and a single GFI made to run in and score the tie.

My opponent commented on turn 15 that Nuffle really seemed to want a tie, which I certainly agree with. Well played to Ivellius.

[Silfir]

Can I ask your opinion on this set up which I've seen occasionally? I'm not 100% sure I've got it right though:

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Since that setup is only one pushback away from a clear path into the backfield, you probably meant this one:

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In my experience, punching elves requires luck with the dice, something that I've had very little of this season.

Blaming the luck of the dice is an easy thing to jump to - but not helpful if indeed your goal is to learn.

At any rate, the goal isn't even to injure the elves; just to fend them off or push them aside so they can't stop you from scoring on turn 8 (and no turn sooner). Any injuries you do get are the bonus, not the goal.

I thought this was called marking? If it's not, then how do I mark players?

You do it so you get more out of the marking, tactically, than the opponent does - when you can't be easily pushed away or knocked over. Every player you leave in contact at the end of your turn is a player your opponent gets to hit on their own terms. Elves have ST3 and AG4 - if they have the space, it's trivial for them to get 2d-for blocks via assists and fight, and fairly easy to dodge away.

The point I was getting at is that putting players in contact is a bad idea unless you have a specific reason why it isn't.

If you like (Dropbox links):

SBK versus Euphonic Cadence
SBK versus Leapers of Loren
SBK versus Team Stabbery
SBK versus Team Hippy

I can't vouch for quality of play as the game goes on due to frustration issues or just plain giving up.

Which of these games do you feel are closest to your best play against elves?

I've started watching the replay vs. Euphonic Cadence. I'm assuming that's the match where you kept having to field a goblin?

- As tempting as it is when the elves line up super-spreat out as Thufir's do, don't commit so many of your orcs to the LOS that the elves can just run around them. Not just because of a Blitz, but because your dedicated ball carrier - the Thrower - has a fairly big risk of failing a pick-up - 11%.
- If you do line up a lot of orcs, the only point in that would be to pummel the lineelves about horizontally so eventually one of your players succeeds at knocking him down - but on the first block, you chose to push the elf away from the next orc who might have punched him.
- Bomber Dribblesnot has no business being in the lineup when you receive. He has a rather narrow purpose - on defense against the bashier sides that form especially sturdy cages, but are rubbish at handling balls (and by extension, bombs), which might allow you break open one of these cages. (Dwarves, basically.) On defense against elves, he functionally performs like a rookie goblin - actually using his skill has good odds of making it worse.
- There was also no earthly reason I can think of to use Bomber before at least picking up the ball first.
- Instead of pulling back the black orcs so they could help your Thrower form a cage to secure the ball, you deliberately sent them into the fray against elves who outnumbered them; they promptly got knocked over, and you're left without sufficient protection for your ballcarrier, fighting Thufir's monster catchers.
- The last possible salvation was on turn 4, where you might possibly have recovered into a proper cage by dodging away the ballcarrier (and not moving the last mobile black orc into contact); but he was left wide open, and once the ball was scattered and recovered by an elf, you were basically dead in the water.

Second defensive TD followed a similar pattern; you left open space to the sides, left the ball recovery for last, and didn't protect the ballcarrier. (The range on those Catchers is insane - so I do understand they're extremely hard to deal with. But there's nothing else but to do it anyway.) At that point the game was lost.

As for your offence following Thufir's quick score, Thufir's play was pretty generous; you had wide open space to advance on the left, then one turn later one pushback against Phrygian (the bottom one of the lineelves on the right) could have opened up a caging opportunity even further downfield. You went for a direct score instead - which is understandable since you were behind by a lot at that point, so it didn't really matter if Thufir got a fourth touchdown or not.



The main issue in this game was ballcarrier security. There was none. Thufir and Euphonic Cadence are absolutely lethal about exploiting that fact. And it's not that you didn't have an opportunity to secure the ball; you apparently didn't even make it a priority. Lots of players lined up to punch the lineselves, not all of them even got that far.

Another issue is the one I mentioned - your black orcs moved into contact without a clear purpose, when often they would have done a much better job by helping you cage. It's hopeless to chase after elves with black orcs; if they don't want to be caught, they run, and if they outnumber you, they can knock you down. You have to get the ball in the midst, or at least close to the black orcs, where they can perform as cage corners or help the cage advance. If you run them into contact while the ball is not secured, you're just doing the elves' work for them.

Taking a look at Spartak's Blud Bowl Klub's roster, an immediate question jumps to mind: Who carries the ball on your team? If it's the +MA Thrower, why doesn't he have Block?

There are other issues I would have with the roster (five rerolls, an early +AV on a black orc, mostly), but since they're not immediately related to anti-elf playing performance, they're probably outside the scope of what we're talking about. But the lack of a dedicated Block/Sure Hands ballcarrier is a bad sign.

[Brother Oni]

......XXX......
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That's the one.

Blaming the luck of the dice is an easy thing to jump to - but not helpful if indeed your goal is to learn.

If I were solely blaming the luck of the dice, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Which of these games do you feel are closest to your best play against elves?

I've started watching the replay vs. Euphonic Cadence. I'm assuming that's the match where you kept having to field a goblin?

I think the Leapers game was my best play - I'll have to watch them again.
It was the Stabbery one where I couldn't sub my goblin off and the AG5 Witch Elves just punished me generally.

- Bomber Dribblesnot has no business being in the lineup when you receive. He has a rather narrow purpose - on defense against the bashier sides that form especially sturdy cages, but are rubbish at handling balls (and by extension, bombs), which might allow you break open one of these cages. (Dwarves, basically.) On defense against elves, he functionally performs like a rookie goblin - actually using his skill has good odds of making it worse.
- There was also no earthly reason I can think of to use Bomber before at least picking up the ball first.

Since I received, I set him up in anticipation of an 8 turn drive up field with him picking off concentrations of elves. I wasn't planning to throw bombs at the elves, but to an empty square next to them, thus they can't intercept it. You've said that I shouldn't blame luck of the dice but it's hard to view the mis-throw and subsequent injury as anything else (even Thufir thought I was a bit Nuffle'd), unless your recommendation was to not to hire him in the first place.

The reason why I tried to throw the bomb first was to see what openings it would create so form my cage up accordingly then move the ball carrier into position. With regard to later on in the match, bear in mind that I basically gave up and didn't bother making ball handler security a priority - it's not as if my TD difference is going to decide any tie breaks this season.

Summary of points:

• Be more careful how I mark. Don't give up easy blocks with assists rather than just easy blocks - this includes the ST4 Black Orcs (although I thought Guard would have helped).
• Improve ball carrier security - I tried doing that against Shishnarfne (as Humans, game not linked as BC Mirka are a SPP pinata solely so they could run the Legacy League with all the people who wanted to play) and he just enveloped and picked off the cage. Playing as Elves in single player has made me understand how they can sneak through though and how better to force a 2 red dice block or force more dodges.
• Need Block on my Thrower - I figured Leader was a better option, but I see that's an error. I guess I should fire both the AV+ Black Orc and thrower and start again with rookies, only this time, build them properly. Hopefully they'll both be in a usable state for the next season.
• Always assume an elf will make the dodge. Put a body in the way rather than be in a more aggressive position and only adding a mere -1 to the dodge roll.

[Silfir]

Bomber Dribblesnot is not expected, on average, to have a positive impact on most games, because he's unreliable. He's a decent pick, at best, if you're facing a superior bashing side (of which orcs should not be facing many) and want to crack open their cages to cause havoc, but even that comes at the cost of having an 11th guy on your pitch who can actually fight, like the Block lineorcs, or even a rookie lineorc. If your goal wasn't to crack open cages with him - which is a high-risk, high-reward strategy because it can lead to defensive TDs - but cause injuries, you've shot yourself (literally, in this case) in the foot - having a ST2 guy without Block on the pitch instead of a ST3 Block lineorc doesn't help with that at all, Bombardier or not. He's also worse at protecting your cage, etc. (which is why I was wondering what the goblin was doing on the pitch later - his one job on an Orc team, as far as I can tell, is to get flung into the air for 1TTDs and occasionally eaten.)

(I meant to say outright that he has no place on the pitch at all against elves, yeah. It got lost in a revision.)

I'm not sure if the +AV blorc or the Thrower need outright firing - +AV guy has a useful skill to go with it (and rookies take forever to train), and as long as you put him on the LOS each drive you do get something out of the +AV, too. The +MA Thrower is more or less salvaged once he gets block, and it's not like Leader is necessarily a bad pick - it's just a bad pick in combination with having four regular team rerolls. You could reduce the bloat by cutting two of those instead. (Or one, if you're sure that you have enough use for the fourth reroll. I think very few teams do and orcs are not one of them, but I'm frequently in the minority on this one.)

[Wraith]

(I meant to say outright that he has no place on the pitch at all against elves, yeah. It got lost in a revision.)

I'd say that there's a good argument that he has no place against any team, unless you're playing only for comedic value. Elves outrun him and/or throw his bombs back, whereas high AV teams just murder him or tend to shrug off the hits. Or, just as likely in my experience, catch the bomb and throw it back on AG2 anyway....

The art of winning Blood Bowl matches - and it is an art, as science is seldom so irresponsible - comes from minimizing your risks, making as few rolls as statistically safe as possible and letting your opponent work much, much harder than you. Bomber Dribblesnot and, frankly, all Bombardiers are the walking antithesis of these concepts. Save your inducements on something that will help you, like a reroll or perhaps a Looney, instead of something that might help if the moon is full and the stars are correctly aligned.

I'm not sure if the +AV blorc or the Thrower need outright firing - +AV guy has a useful skill to go with it (and rookies take forever to train), and as long as you put him on the LOS each drive you do get something out of the +AV, too.

Keep the Black Orc. He's only 3SPP away from his next level, he'll certainly get that a lot faster than getting a rookie from level 1 to 2, and while not optimal AV10 isn't in anyway bad. Especially since he already has Block - his odds of scoring an injury increase dramatically every time he enters a fight and probably isn't going to hit the floor.

(Or one, if you're sure that you have enough use for the fourth reroll. I think very few teams do and orcs are not one of them, but I'm frequently in the minority on this one.)

Keep the reroll until your Thrower has Block, and then consider dropping it. The last thing you want is to lose one reroll and then immediately have your vulnerable Leader player get maimed or deaded so that you lose another.
Normally I'd agree with Silfir that 3 rerolls is usually sufficient fo an Orc team, but personally I'd want 1 more 'spare' while some of your important pieces - Thrower, Black Orcs - lack Block, and especially if you're going to try to use the Goblin for throwing around in an emergency. It's a bit of a luxury most of the time, but I'd be very glad of it in a tight game.

I have a lot more to say about playing against Elves in general, and a few thoughts about playing as Khorne Daemons in particular (I've been mulling over our Open League game in my downtime at work, it's really proven stimulating from a theoretical coaching standpoint) but broadly speaking I'd just repeat our previous conversation over Steam - the key to beating Elves comes from having a very deliberate plan about how you build your team. Players with Tackle are invaluable, especially at this point in a League with so many well developed Elf teams about, and a scattering of Diving Tackle probably isn't a bad idea too.

It can be dull, but it kinda works.
As much as we make jokes about killing each others' players being the 'real' way to play the game, it only works when the dice are specifically going in your favour. Elves, however, have an abundance of AG4 - which is the most important stat a player can have which wins games directly in the 'traditional' manner - and as such don't need 'lucky' dice to succeed, just 'reasonable' ones. Kill them, and another just-as-agile player takes their place - make them 'worse', not 'fresh', and you stand a better chance.

[Brother Oni]

(which is why I was wondering what the goblin was doing on the pitch later - his one job on an Orc team, as far as I can tell, is to get flung into the air for 1TTDs and occasionally eaten.)

(I meant to say outright that he has no place on the pitch at all against elves, yeah. It got lost in a revision.)

I think my thrower was injured by that point, so I decided to go for a throw with the troll.

He's also useful for just throwing at cages, since anybody he lands on is automatically knocked down and potentially losing a 40TV player is worth the risk for cracking open the cage and a chance to blitz the ball carrier (injuring one of theirs at the same time is just the cherry on the cake). I understand it's risky, but I might as well get some use out of him, especially if he won't sub off again (I definitely didn't want him against Devmaar given my experiences with Thufir the match before but I didn't have much choice).


[Various player advice from Silfir and Wraith]

Yeah, I kinda figured that as much Blackle would be the way to go (plus I don't need doubles to get the skills). I'll see if the team is salvagable by the end of this season.
One question though - at what point do you draw the line between building your team against a play style and building your team to promote your own play style? Khorne Daemons for example - you need as much Guard as possible for the STR3 Frenzy to work, but that means you have to skimp on Tackle at low TVs.

I have a lot more to say about playing against Elves in general, and a few thoughts about playing as Khorne Daemons in particular (I've been mulling over our Open League game in my downtime at work, it's really proven stimulating from a theoretical coaching standpoint) but broadly speaking I'd just repeat our previous conversation over Steam - the key to beating Elves comes from having a very deliberate plan about how you build your team.

I think I found a campaign with Khorne Daemons on Youtube last night (I want to say cknoor, but I looked at a lot of games over the past few days), but any further suggestions would be appreciated.
The general concensus is that Khorne Daemons are not a good team (about par with Vampires and other teams listed as difficult in the LRB), only just above the joke teams like Goblins and Halflings, so as much as I enjoy hitting things, I guess I'll have to put them to one side until my skills improve.

[Silfir]

There's another thing I noticed while I was thinking this over - I don't think one MA6 guy is enough to pick up the ball with. You don't have to get a second Thrower, but at least one Blitzer (probably the MA7 one) should stay take over the other half of the pitch. This way one of the two (preferably the Thrower) will be able to reach the ball faster and the other can help protect the pick-up or provice a screen.

It's also worth pointing out that I think Thufir's LOS set-up, which is pretty hard on his line-elves because they can be pushed around horizontally with little trouble (as opposed to a tight formation), might be squarely aimed at you doing exactly what you did: Commit a lot of orcs to the LOS and neglect the coverage of the sides and having more than one guy to pick up the ball, who will then get in trouble because Thufir also kicks deep and has his Catchers run around, through or jump over the mass of orcs at the LOS.

So while it's tempting to punch elves in the face on the LOS if they're offered up like that, you should use no more than seven guys, if that. (Use the guys with Tackle ond or Mighty Blow as appropriate to maximize your odds of getting a knockdown) Two others should cover the sides so the fast elves have to make dodge rolls (or blitz) to get past into the backfield (this is where Stand Firm/Side Step comes in handy), and two others should be set up deep to pick up, as mentioned.



Re: goblins being useful for throwing at cages - that's true as far as it goes, but elves built for long-range passing (which pro elves almost invariably are) won't be caging up. This is another example of the high-risk stuff (fielding a ST2 player being high risk) Wraith mentioned that's best to reserve for very specific scenarios, or forget about entirely. (While I think the Bombardier does have a place on a Goblin team, though admittedly mostly to see if you can get Hail Mary Pass for him on a level-up so he is actually useful, I agree orcs should never be desperate enough that Bomber Dribblesnot is the best option left.)

Re: Khorne - With only two team rerolls and almost no one on the team having Block, a 2-2-3 record is nothing to sneeze at in my book.

As for Tackle on Khorne - that's actually not that much of an issue because everyone has Frenzy, which helps you getting Defender Downs or Both Downs instead of Stumbles. All the more reason why a Khorne team's competence goes up massively once you have lots of Block on the Frenzy players.

Re: Building teams - You do want stuff that's universally useful and is part of the team plan. You want a ball carrier with Block, Sure Hands and ideally Dodge, because that's important and useful to have against pretty much everyone, especially later in the game, when almost every team has picked up Strip Ball on someone. That's why I jumped on that as the central issue I saw in your team roster. (I played two matches back-to-back against Imperial Space Corps with Measured Response. I almost lost the first 2-1 and I won the second 1-0 with relatively little difficulty. Only skill-up inbetween the two? Block for my Dodge/Sure Hands Thrower.)

I like the rest of your roster just fine. You do want Block and Guard and Mighty Blow on your orcs because they need that against everyone. Skills like Stand Firm (for your cage corners, or blitzers forming a screen or protecting a lane) are more universally applicable, and also helpful against elves. Diving Tackle is worth a double or two on Stand Firm Blitzers, though Dodge should probably take priority. If there's one thing your team is missing so far, it's Piling On, which would be the skill of choice for your Tackle/Mighty Blow Blitzer.

Tackle and Dodge depend on the makeup of your league. And even if your league has several elf teams, you don't want to overcommit on Tackle; it's 20 TV every time you take it, but there are diminishing returns, and it all is worthless if your opponent has no Dodge at all. Certainly Block is more important.

[LCP]

The goblin on an Orc team is useful as a foul-monkey as well as TTM 1-turn touchdowns. Particularly against elves, when you put a valuable player down you want him to stay down. A very cheap player with Stunty and access to Sneaky Git is very useful for making sure that happens. SBBK have got 1 ST5 and 4 ST4 players, so I think they can afford to keep one ST2 on the roster.

It's also worth pointing out that as a bash side you have to be careful how much TV you sink into anti-elf measures, as a lot of the time Tackle etc. does very little against other bash sides. The Rampagers have just about rounded out their 'elf-proofing' now with 4 Tackle players + a Tentacled big guy; any more anti-elf measures I invest in will be injury-causing skills that work just as well against other teams.

[Thufir]

• Be more careful how I mark. Don't give up easy blocks with assists rather than just easy blocks - this includes the ST4 Black Orcs (although I thought Guard would have helped).
• Improve ball carrier security - I tried doing that against Shishnarfne (as Humans, game not linked as BC Mirka are a SPP pinata solely so they could run the Legacy League with all the people who wanted to play) and he just enveloped and picked off the cage. Playing as Elves in single player has made me understand how they can sneak through though and how better to force a 2 red dice block or force more dodges.
• Always assume an elf will make the dodge. Put a body in the way rather than be in a more aggressive position and only adding a mere -1 to the dodge roll.

These seem like the really key ones to me - having Block on your Thrower, while a good idea, is not necessarily as big a deal if he's going to be standing in the middle of a cage where he can't be blitzed anyway (Admittedly, players with Leap exist for that purpose, but that's something you generally need to be wary of, and Guard on cage corners can help counter them.
More careful marking was definitely an issue the first time we played, last season - you walked players up to my guys, but I could easily get assists and in at least one instance you were walking up to the guy with Guard so I didn't even need more guys to have favourable blocks on them.
As far as securing a ball-carrier goes, there are two ways of doing it - you can put defences around the ball-carrier himself, or you can put them around the players who could blitz him. The latter can work pretty well against stronger teams that don't dodge as well, but against elves you should, as you say, always assume they'll make the dodges and so your defences should be around the ball-carrier so the blitzing elf can't just avoid them entirely.

I'd say that there's a good argument that he has no place against any team, unless you're playing only for comedic value. Elves outrun him and/or throw his bombs back, whereas high AV teams just murder him or tend to shrug off the hits. Or, just as likely in my experience, catch the bomb and throw it back on AG2 anyway....

The art of winning Blood Bowl matches - and it is an art, as science is seldom so irresponsible - comes from minimizing your risks, making as few rolls as statistically safe as possible and letting your opponent work much, much harder than you. Bomber Dribblesnot and, frankly, all Bombardiers are the walking antithesis of these concepts. Save your inducements on something that will help you, like a reroll or perhaps a Looney, instead of something that might help if the moon is full and the stars are correctly aligned.

If I were playing a Goblin team I'd definitely take a Bombardier. Playing Goblins is already inherently very risky, so you may as well have something which will give you rewards for all the risks you're taking.

It's also worth pointing out that I think Thufir's LOS set-up, which is pretty hard on his line-elves because they can be pushed around horizontally with little trouble (as opposed to a tight formation), might be squarely aimed at you doing exactly what you did: Commit a lot of orcs to the LOS and neglect the coverage of the sides and having more than one guy to pick up the ball, who will then get in trouble because Thufir also kicks deep and has his Catchers run around, through or jump over the mass of orcs at the LOS.

It's quite a while since I actually thought through why I bunch up or space out my players, but yes, I'm pretty sure that was the original reasoning, to goad my opponent into committing a load of players to the front line, so those players couldn't then be doing anything more useful with the ball.

[LCP]

If anyone's looking for an open league game tonight, hit me up on Steam.