Childworld/Dreamworld

[Maerad of Pellinor]

Okay, I've wanted to start this thread for a long time, and now with the new Klog page (5), I think I can. Discussion was started in this thread and I'll quote the most important parts, then add on at the end. The spoiler is the quotes so you don't have to scroll through if you just want to read the original thread (which actually has a lot more thoughts than I'm copying here; I stopped where I did because it gets complicated to follow after this without breaking up quotes....)

Spoiler

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In order to fully comprehend Erf World, one needs to comprehend the intentions of the world's creators, which from Wanda's point of view means the Titans of Arc. Which raises the question, did the Titans have a sense of humor? They created one of their tools in the form of a child's toy hammer, and gave it the power to turn walnuts into Pigeons. Could that heve been, at least in part, a joke? If you need a sense of humor to fully comprehend Erf World, then Wanda's poorly developed sense of humor could be a major handicap for her.

Hmm. That's a good idea. While I think that the Arkenhammer doesn't look like a child's toy, it does look a bit, well, ridiculous for a device that can tame Dwagons.

It seems like it's fairly certain that Erfworld and Earth are very, very closely linked. Wanda's spell could summon Parson from Earth, people from Earth look like people from Erfworld (albeit bigger), things have similar names (dwagons-dragons, gwiffons-griffons, et c.), and they speak the same language as we do. Stanley's reaction to Earth's words is very similar to our reaction to his words was--I'm sure that if you look back far enough, you'll find tens of threads with the basic title "Dwagons? How stupid!", although Stanley's saying our words are stupid may be the Rob and Jamie's way of getting back at us, the audience. But let's it's not, because otherwise we'll kill all speculation into that.

Now that I think about it, Erfworld almost seems like a children's world: no R's in words, so it's easy for little kids to say, food that magically appears (and Happy Meals (or close to it) with toys), naughtymancy, magic and magical artifacts, Evil Bad Guys that are almost defeated (forget holy/unholy for the moment)--almost is the key here, because what little kid doesn't want safe action and adventure?, everyone's short, things created by Grown-Ups (Titans; adults seem huge to little kids), colors for each kind of magic, you can't curse, et c. It's a small child's paradice.

And if that's so, then the Arkenhammer is attuned to the bad child. The naughty one. The one who doesn't listen to his parents. The one who is free from all rules, free to do whatever he wants. And he gets the rewards, while the good child doesn't. That's even better--kids get to disobey the rules in Dreamworld and don't get punished for it! Kids get to make fun of the goody-two-shoes one who doesn't get any dwagons! Again, perfection for the little kids.

Then the Real World comes in, in the form of Parson, and does one of two things: either he kills the dream, or he makes it last forever (I'm not sure yet, and I think we need to see more of the comic to decide, if this is true). Let's say first that he ruins it. He's not so bad at first--after all, he's just like a very big child. But he tries to make order, with his charts and klogs. He tries to make evil win, and that's not good--because even if children like to be naughty, they want to be forgiven in the end (btw, I mean really small children throughout this post; maybe three or four). He's tall, and he makes fun of the short people. He takes over, and tries (and succeeds) to outsmart the children. He's a bully.

Or we can view his actions as saving the dream: He wants to escape from Adultworld, too. He stops naughtyness from being completely destroyed as children grow up, even though it's always kept in check by Ansom. He slowly introduces grown-up ideas, making the children have something to look forward to (e.g. curse words). He's someone children can make fun of, because he's so stupid and awkward. And they can order him around whenever they want, and choose either to or not to follow his advice.

One interesting question is where Sizemore fits in -- superficially, he represents a quiet studious "kid", but he's with the "naughty" side. Perhaps the quiet studious kid who keeps getting into trouble as a result of his curiosity? Also, note that he appears to be the immediate source of the "order" found in Parson's klog about the magic system.

Thinking about the characters as children leads me to think about their 'families'. Wanda's tribe, the Croatan, is lost. If Wanda is in some sense like a child who has lost her family, in other words an orphan, then her lack of hope and poor sense of humor is explainable as the result of psychological trauma. Her apparent loyalty to Stanley may be the result of her trying to make the Plaid tribe her new family. But even the Plaid tribe of Stanley and Sizemore is in danger. It's "nearly lost." What effect has the near destruction of their tribe (family?) had on Stanley and Sizemore?
Sizemore expects to die soon. Why does he return from the Magic Kingdom, to face his doom? (I don't know for sure that Sizemore had other options, but it seems at least possible he could have stayed in the Magic Kingdom, rather than returning to Gobwin Knob with Wanda.) Does Sizemore remain loyal to Stanley (his big brother?) because the two of them are among the last members of the Plaid?
Jillian doesn't know what she really wants. Is this because she's rejected her family? She doesn't let anyone except Wanda know she really a Royal. She has rejected both the obligations and privilages tha tcome with being a member of her family. She is drawn to both Anson, who has a family like hers, and Wanda, who has no family.
Anson has a family (he is a Royal) and tries to live up to its expectations. He is attracted to Jillian, who seems to have no family. Does Anson's family approve of his relationship with Jillian? Perhaps Royals are only supposed to marry other Royals? Does Anson feel guilty about his relationship with Jillian, because, as far as he knows, Jillian in not a Royal?

Now, think about the average child. She (I'm too lazy to type s/he and the example is Wanda) doesn't think of herself as a child, unless she's told that by adults. And to be a child is usually demeaning. Yes, childhood brings priviledges that adulthood takes away, such as the ability to play hide-and-seek in public without being too embarrassed, but for the most part, being a child means you can't do what you want to do. Children don't like that. So in their ideal daydream world, there is no such thing as a child--or, if there is, then the daydreamer isn't the child. But suppose Erfworld is created by lots of children. Then none of them will want to be the child, and so none of them are children. And so their characters (their projections of themselves into Dreamworld) have never been children.* Thus, Wanda doesn't know what a child is, and the books (which are Parson's only source of information for Klog #5) know/say nothing about children or growing up. There are only adults.

*I say "have never been children" because growing up can be a scary prospect, so it's much easier if they never have to grow up at all and just start out as adults. So they get the best of both worlds, which is what they want out of Dreamworld.

Why are cities required for creating people? Maybe each PC (main character/child who has projected herself into Dreamworld) has her own way of looking at the Ideal Life and so has to be in charge of her own city to be fully happy. And all NPCs (everyone else in Erfworld; the people who are "allowed" to die; the people who are just in the background a single panel of the comic) have to be thought up by someone, so they have to spawn from a city too.

How could warlords fit into this? Favorite stuffed animals? People children imagine into existance with more detail?

Reminds me of the joke "Imagine this: there's a fishbowl with a duck inside it. How do you take the duck out without touching it?" The answer is that you imagine it out....

[ObadiahtheSlim]

There are no children in Erfworld because there are so few games that actually have children in them. Any game that does have them are almost always hard coded to have the children unattackable/unkillable. Can you think of a RTS or TBS with kids in it?

[Gri]

warcraft 3
Warwind 2

[SteveMB]

How could warlords fit into this? Favorite stuffed animals? People children imagine into existance with more detail?

The "favorite stuffed animals" and the like seem like closer parallels to the gwiffons, dwagons, etc. Significant supporting characters (not necessarily warlords; Mung seems like a likely example) would naturally be imagined in somewhat more detail than individual grunts among the troops.

The mention of Mung reminds me of perhaps the main difficulty with this interpretation -- parts of the story are a bit on the mature side to be the creations of a child's imagination. The whole "complex" relationship between Wanda and Jillian (brainwashing, BDSM sexual overtones) is the obvious example, but the discussion between Vinnie and Ansom about Stanley's political legitimacy also seems a bit over the head of someone who would create a fantasy world with military units based on stuffed animals and marshmellow peeps.

[Flakey]

Some of the more basic troop types remind me of the friendly (different from serious) table top gaming mindset. "If you dont have it, make it up from whats lying around".

Marbits, marshmallow peeps, and stuffed toys. All items that Parsons probably was planning to use as unit counters in his trial run of his new game, before he went plot into Erfworld.

[Strengfellow]

One can also draw paralels with Winnie the Pooh.
Christopher Robin is the creator of the world indeed CR is the font of wisdon to which all defere and often leads or at least accompanies his creations in there adventures.
Yet Pooh et al have a life outside of CR's presence which is then recounted to CR upon his return.
Which mirror's the situation regarding the Titans quite nicely.

[DogBrain]

How about this one:

"What if a fantasy wargame were in a world that was 'real'?"

[Demented]

Then Warcraft III would be awesome.
"I have been chosen, by the big metal hand in the sky!"

World of Warcraft, on the other hand, can go stuff itself with chopped nails.

There'd be almost nothing different in any of Molyneaux's games.

[DogBrain]

"Nobody knows what's going on in this world. I guess... a few of us would like to."

Erfworld doesn't even make sense to those of its inhabitants thoughtful enough to try to do more than be caught up in the moment.