Mutants and Masterminds 3e; unlimited power?

[DemonSlayer]

Hey,

I was fiddling around with the M&M 3e system today, and I noticed that for some (if not most, if not ALL) powers, if you just add enough flaws, you can get your PP cost for that power down to zero. Or lower, actually, but common sense dictates that a negative cost isn't allowed. Powers that cost zero power points no matter the rank, however, pose another problem.

Take, for example, the Damage power. This power costs 1pp per rank. Adding the Resistible modifier to it (-1pp per rank), gives you a total power cost of zero, no matter how many ranks you put in. I realize that players are limited by the Power Level of your character (attack bonus + effect rank cannot exceed Power Level * 2), but still, it seems like a bit of a loophole, having a power that costs you nothing- you'd be able to take most powers in the book with careful management of flaws.

Is my reasoning correct, or am I missing another limiting factor here (other than the GM simply not allowing things)?

Thank you!

[Grod_The_Giant]

The cost becomes fractional, not negative- 1 point per rank to 1/2 point per rank to 1/3 point per rank, and so on, to a recommended minimum of 1/5 point per rank. See the start of the "Modifiers" section for details.

[DemonSlayer]

Ah, you're absolutely correct! Thank you :)!

[RickAllison]

Doesn't that only apply to ranked flaws? What about flat ones (like Activation, Removable, etc.)?

[Volthawk]

Doesn't that only apply to ranked flaws? What about flat ones (like Activation, Removable, etc.)?

There's a line in the bit describing them that says that they can't reduce the price of an effect below 1.

[RickAllison]

There's a line in the bit describing them that says that they can't reduce the price of an effect below 1.

Where is that at? We have some powergamers in the group...

[Volthawk]

Where is that at? We have some powergamers in the group...

Right at the beginning of the section on modifiers, under "Flat-Value Modifiers".

[RickAllison]

Right at the beginning of the section on modifiers, under "Flat-Value Modifiers".

Here's what I'm seeing in my copy:

The following section lists available flaws, starting with
the flaw’s name and the amount it reduces effect cost (in
power points per rank or flat value), along with a description
of how the flaw modifies effects in game terms.

A flat-value flaw cannot have more ranks than the effect
itself.

And I get that the flat-value flaw can't have more ranks, but that doesn't address the issue. Requiring a standard action to Activate alone could put a 1 PP/rank power into negatives. I know any DM can veto it, but is there any text against it? Or against combining multiple flaws?

[Volthawk]

Here's what I'm seeing in my copy:



And I get that the flat-value flaw can't have more ranks, but that doesn't address the issue. Requiring a standard action to Activate alone could put a 1 PP/rank power into negatives. I know any DM can veto it, but is there any text against it? Or against combining multiple flaws?

You're looking way too late. I said the start of the entire section on modifiers, as in before both Extras and Flaws, in the Applying Modifiers section, under "Flat-Value Modifiers". Page 188, where it says:

FLAT-VALUE MODIFIERS
<Text explaining the basics of this stuff, irrelevant>

A flat-value flaw cannot reduce an effect or power’s final cost below 1 power point.

Here's a link to the SRD section that contains the same line.

[RickAllison]

You're looking way too late. I said the start of the entire section on modifiers, as in before both Extras and Flaws, in the Applying Modifiers section, under "Flat-Value Modifiers". Page 188, where it says:



Here's a link to the SRD section that contains the same line.

Ahhh, okay, I see it now, thanks! I figured something was up, but couldn't find it.

[tensai_oni]

Late comment from me, but if you have problems with powergamers then keep one thing in mind.

Mutants and Masterminds isn't like DnD which has an "if it's RAW, it's legal" approach. M&M doesn't hide that some power/extra combos are absolutely broken and you as a game master are 100% allowed to ban certain powers if they are too powergame-y, even if they're 100% rules-legal. It's a game where players create their characters with the game master's input and if a character is too powerful (or too weak), the game master should point it out and help the player change that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Late comment from me, but if you have problems with powergamers then keep one thing in mind.

Mutants and Masterminds isn't like DnD which has an "if it's RAW, it's legal" approach. M&M doesn't hide that some power/extra combos are absolutely broken and you as a game master are 100% allowed to ban certain powers if they are too powergame-y, even if they're 100% rules-legal. It's a game where players create their characters with the game master's input and if a character is too powerful (or too weak), the game master should point it out and help the player change that.

This. There *are* TO level exploits possible- you can loop summons with all of their points in Affects Others effects to (temporarily) bootstrap yourself towards infinite pp, you can use Remote Sensing and Perception range powers to kill everything from your impenetrable HQ, you can do absolutely stupid stuff with Contagious powers and random bystanders, you can have a Triggered power with a dozen+ iterations all triggering on, say, "target affected by this power", you can abuse the **** out of arrays by pure RAW, you can do similar stupidity with Metamorph...

The thing is that it's easy to tell that someone is going nuts, unlike looking at a D&D build. As long as no-one goes into clear TO range, optimization tends towards the horizontal- squeezing more effects out of your points. Just make sure no one traded off more than, oh, 50% Pl, and that everyone has full defenses and an offensive power with at least one +1/rank extra (discounting Ranged) and things should work out generally okay.

[Larpus]

Late comment from me, but if you have problems with powergamers then keep one thing in mind.

Mutants and Masterminds isn't like DnD which has an "if it's RAW, it's legal" approach. M&M doesn't hide that some power/extra combos are absolutely broken and you as a game master are 100% allowed to ban certain powers if they are too powergame-y, even if they're 100% rules-legal. It's a game where players create their characters with the game master's input and if a character is too powerful (or too weak), the game master should point it out and help the player change that.

Indeed, this system really does bend over backwards to accommodate even the craziest character concepts, such as a character whose body is composed by a swarm of insects and, as such, is invulnerable to all/most physical attacks.

I'd bet it'd be the perfect system for an adventure in the world of One Piece and all its crazy devil fruit powers.

But it also places all the final decision-making in the hands of the GM, in couple instances (such as the Variable power), it even explicitly says "yeah it's legal, but don't be a ****, if the GM doesn't want it, don't freaking use it".