Saga Edition Thread III: Saga Academy

[Getsugaru]

I presume build suggestions are asked in this thread.

I'm currently working on a Massassi Force-user build who's weapon of choice is a pair of "Sith" lanvaroks as well as a traditional "Massassi" lanvarok (got to love the "you wear them on the wrist and can therefore still use weapons in your hand" rule). The intent is to mix Force abilities with the Massassi's innate talent for its traditional weapon (also, the idea is that he's to of been frozen in carbonite for at least a few millennia, so he'll be a bit of a fish out of water in a later era; original, I know. ). I'm aware that the Massassi has penalties to all mental stats as well as Strength being seen by many as a dump stat in SAGA, but I feel this could still be a fun build to figure out.

One of the goals with this build (which will likely involve the point-buy system) is to make the character smarter than should be expected. In addition, with how weird getting skills is in SAGA, the first class level decides a lot. As Massassi are primitive, jedi would likely be the best class to choose, as all of the free feats can still be obtained from the class. However, jedi also get the least number of skills in the game, so I uncertain if some other class would be better.

Finally, I'm rather uncertain of the best talents for maxing Force abilities as well as for making best use of the lanvarok. The only certainty I know of is needing some way to infuse the weapon with the Force somehow to make it both stand up to lightsabers as well as to maybe use it in place of a lightsaber for things such as block, deflect, etc. If that isn't possible, however, then I'll probably just coat them in Sith Alchemy.

I know this concept is rather ambitious, but for that reason I feel it would be a fun build to play (on the condition I figure out how to actually make this work). Any help would be most appreciated.

[Mando Knight]

I'm currently working on a Massassi Force-user build who's weapon of choice is a pair of "Sith" lanvaroks as well as a traditional "Massassi" lanvarok (got to love the "you wear them on the wrist and can therefore still use weapons in your hand" rule).

You still can only attack with two weapons with a full attack action (otherwise multi-limbed droids or people with armor with lots of weapon mounts would be simply OP). According to the errata, you also only get free proficiency with the Massassi lanvarok, so you'd need to burn a feat on Exotic proficiency if you want to also use a Sith lanvarok... on top of Force Sensitivity and dual-weapon fighting, that means you're shaping up toward having a pretty feat-intensive build.

In addition, with how weird getting skills is in SAGA, the first class level decides a lot. As Massassi are primitive, jedi would likely be the best class to choose, as all of the free feats can still be obtained from the class. However, jedi also get the least number of skills in the game, so I uncertain if some other class would be better.

If you're after skills, go Scout (it's also the only class that has Survival as a class skill, letting you take advantage of your conditional bonus feat). Soldier also offers armor proficiency and an extra trained skill over Jedi, as well as more talents for general melee builds. I generally find Jedi talents lackluster if you're not using a lightsaber, IMO, so all it offers is Force Sensitivity.

Finally, I'm rather uncertain of the best talents for maxing Force abilities as well as for making best use of the lanvarok. The only certainty I know of is needing some way to infuse the weapon with the Force somehow to make it both stand up to lightsabers as well as to maybe use it in place of a lightsaber for things such as block, deflect, etc. If that isn't possible, however, then I'll probably just coat them in Sith Alchemy.

Force Adept has what you're looking for, but it'll take a while to get there. Empower Weapon improves your melee damage, and Primitive Block (KotOR p. 38) lets you negate melee attacks... notably not excluding lightsabers from the weapons you can block.

Inaccurate tag? What does that do? I do not remember what that does.

It prevents the weapon from being fired at Long range, which is usually irrelevant. A carbine can get around most of that restriction by extending the stock (presuming you usually keep it folded): Medium range for a pistol is 41-60 squares, but 61-150 for a rifle (i.e. a carbine with an extended stock). A blaster rifle (which doesn't have Inaccurate) can fire at Long range, which is 151-300 squares.

Also wouldn't a rifle not allow opportunity attacks?

Carbines can always make opportunity attacks, and any weapon with a folded stock can also make them.

[Getsugaru]

You still can only attack with two weapons with a full attack action (otherwise multi-limbed droids or people with armor with lots of weapon mounts would be simply OP). According to the errata, you also only get free proficiency with the Massassi lanvarok, so you'd need to burn a feat on Exotic proficiency if you want to also use a Sith lanvarok... on top of Force Sensitivity and dual-weapon fighting, that means you're shaping up toward having a pretty feat-intensive build.

Ah, I was unaware of that errata. it also makes sense for why we don't often see builds involving characters not involving multiple upper-body limbs.

If you're after skills, go Scout (it's also the only class that has Survival as a class skill, letting you take advantage of your conditional bonus feat). Soldier also offers armor proficiency and an extra trained skill over Jedi, as well as more talents for general melee builds. I generally find Jedi talents lackluster if you're not using a lightsaber, IMO, so all it offers is Force Sensitivity.

That definitely makes Scout the more valuable class for first level. As for Jedi, while lightsaber skills aren't as valuable, there should still be a few talents that are Force-oriented. Still, most are Force talents, which mean anyone can take them so long as they have Force Sensitivity.

Force Adept has what you're looking for, but it'll take a while to get there. Empower Weapon improves your melee damage, and Primitive Block (KotOR p. 38) lets you negate melee attacks... notably not excluding lightsabers from the weapons you can block.

That is wonderful. Now I know of a way to make the Lanvarok both on par with lightsabers, but also in a way better than them.

I looked at the Force Adept, and noted that it requires at least three Force Talents. As such, I was curious about any Force Talents that would be useful in combat with the Lanvarok. If there aren't really any good ones, then instead perhaps some Force Talents that could change some of the skills I cannot or will not obtain to Use The Force checks. Any suggestions? In a pinch Battle Meditation (and Improved Battle Meditation) so as to initiate my Duty Bound ability of my own accord...

...I cannot believe I've forgotten this (I suspect because it may be because of how many house rules I've played with over the years), but does the minimum level requirement of prestige classes state the earliest level you can take the class, or is it that you need to be a level higher than that to take levels in the class( i.e. if I want to take Force Adept, can I do so as my 7th level, or would I need to wait until my 8th level)?

[Blackdrop]

...As for Jedi, while lightsaber skills aren't as valuable, there should still be a few talents that are Force-oriented. Still, most are Force talents...

...In a pinch Battle Meditation (and Improved Battle Meditation) so as to initiate my Duty Bound ability of my own accord...

No, they aren't. While most of the Jedi Consular/Guardian/Sentinel talents use Force Points or work off the Use the Force skill, they are not Force talents. Force talents are any of the talents in the Alter, Control, Dark Side, Guardian Spirit(JATM), Light Side(CWCG), and Sense talent trees, along with any of the talent trees specific to a Force Tradition. This is clarified in the Jedi Academy Training Manual (page 14, last sentence of the second paragraph under the Force Talents header).

...I cannot believe I've forgotten this (I suspect because it may be because of how many house rules I've played with over the years), but does the minimum level requirement of prestige classes state the earliest level you can take the class, or is it that you need to be a level higher than that to take levels in the class( i.e. if I want to take Force Adept, can I do so as my 7th level, or would I need to wait until my 8th level)?

The latter

[Jigawatts]

I second the suggestion of starting with Scout. Go Scout 1/Solider X/Whatever PrC X. Dont even worry about going Jedi if you arent using a rocking a lightsaber.

As for Force talents, I used the crap out of Equilibrium (which also brings you up all the way on the condition track). DR 10, and Force Recovery are other solid options (Force recovery is better if you have ways to get extra second winds, good ol' synergy).

[Jayngfet]

It is however worth it speaking from experience. It shouldn't be your ONLY gun unless you're a Jedi or something, but its gotten me out of a few jams simply because being able to make a quick escape mid fight is good, or else finding a balcony to get cover with from enemies hiding below. The difference can probably save your life, if not at least some force or destiny points.

Mobility, action economics, and what you have available in what quantity is important to any game. Having a couple of zipline shots is something I feel is valuable, even if you'll wind up using another weapon of some sort.

[Malifice]

So let me get this right:

1) There is no such thing in SWSE as having some levels of CT damage being 'persistent' and others not. Either all your CT damage is subject to being 'persistent', or none of it is. Certain effects move you down the CT [damage over your DT, the effects of some talents, etc]. If at any time any one of those effects is noted as being persistent, all your CT damage becomes persistent.

2) If your CT damage is 'persistent', all this does is just stop you from using the recover action, and from healing HP via 8 hours rest until the condition to remove the persistent condition is met. You can still move up the CT via other means even if your CT damage [talents, feats and so forth] is 'persistent' .

Example:

Assume a PC is 3 steps down the CT (-5 to all actions). The CT damage is not persistent, meaning he could elect to use the recover action on his turn. On his turn however, he rather foolishly elects to use the Force Exertion talent [recall a force power, but move 1 step down the CT, persistent till you rest for 1 minute].

He thus ends his turn at -4 steps on the CT [-10 to all actions, half movement], and [now] his CT damage is persistent, making him unable to use the recover action to remove those levels of CT damage until he can rest for 1 minute.

3) Is this accurate? And if so:

4) Is it correct that [even though he has a persistent condition] if he spams the Resilience talent [move +2 steps on the CT as a full round action] for 2 rounds, all his CT damage is gone?

5) He also could use the Equilibrium talent, spend a force point and clear all CT damage as a swift action?

6) And Indomitable would not work seeing as the condition is now persistent [and Indomitable specifically doesnt work on persistent conditions]?

It looks like Force users can spam some pretty impresive CT restoration [even persistent conditions] talents, making it next to impossible to keep them down the CT for more than a round or two, even if those conditions are permanent.

Two last questions:

7) Does the Resilience talent above mean Jedis with the Reslience talent never need to sleep, eat, or drink?

8) Are there any options for the other non force using PCs to heal CT damage once its persistent so efficiently?

[RandomLunatic]

#s 1-5 are correct. 6 is not-persistent conditions only prevent the Recover action, which Indomitable is not. #7 the answer is "Technically, but it won't remove the persistent condition so it's still going to be annoying." To answer 8, aside from Indomitable, you can also get a Bolster Ally from the party noble, but that's only 1/encounter.

[Jayngfet]

CT recovery is pretty important to the system. For most characters an ion charger stun baton can knock them three steps down if it manages to actually connect solidly, and that's per hit. But that's a simple weapon, so literally anybody gets to do that trick. A high strength dual weapon character can basically just knock down anybody short of a full boss or a tanky character in a singular round.

As for jedi never needing to sleep or eat: Jedi basically barely do that anyway.

[Malifice]

6 is not-persistent conditions only prevent the Recover action, which Indomitable is not.

The Indomitable text stats 'This does not remove any persistent conditions that may be affecting you'

I read that as 'You cant use this ability if you are suffering from any persistent conditions'.

Are you saying it should be read as 'Even though you move to the top of the CT and to a normal state when you use this ability, the persistent condition remains'

To answer 8, aside from Indomitable, you can also get a Bolster Ally from the party noble, but that's only 1/encounter.

Yeah I also found 'soothe ally' from the medical droid talent tree. Theres a similar one in the Jedi healer tree.

CT recovery is pretty important to the system. For most characters an ion charger stun baton can knock them three steps down if it manages to actually connect solidly, and that's per hit. But that's a simple weapon, so literally anybody gets to do that trick. A high strength dual weapon character can basically just knock down anybody short of a full boss or a tanky character in a singular round.

Ive increased the CT in my games to:

-1 []
-2 [][]
-5 [][][]
-10 [][][]
KO []

Each box is one step. Meaning you need to drop someone -10 steps down on the CT to KO them, and slowing recovery down. KO'd creatures make a con check to recover after 5 rounds down [instead of 10].

It slows down the CT sniper builds pretty hard, and makes one shots much harder, however when you get pushed down the bottom of the CT, it takes longer to get back up.

I erratad/ HR'd the three recovery talents to read:

Resilience allows you to move +2 steps up the CT when you take the recover action
Equilibrium moves you +3 steps up the CT, and removes persistent conditions [costs a FP]
Indomitable moves you +5 steps up the CT, otherwise treated like the recover action [cant use with persistent conditions]. 1/day

Aside from Equilibrium, the only way to remove persistent conditions from creatures in my game is either

• The stated method in the condition
• Critical care application of the Treat injury skill [takes 1 minute, DC 20, requires medpac, trained only]
• A DC 20 result on Vital transfer [which moves the force user -1 step on the CT and inflicts a persistent condition req 1 hour to remove, FP negates]
• Surgery

I also give everyone 3 second winds per day. I rule Vital Transfer costs a force user one of those second winds to activate [which he can spend a FP to negate] and it transfers the second wind to the recepient, who spends it immediately for a free second wind, and +1 step up the CT. First Aid does the same thing in my games [free second wind and +1 step on the CT]. Surgery grants +1 more [and removes persistent conditions].

Im still tinkering.

[russdm]

For a possible to start star wars saga game:

I am really thinking of going R2 Series droid with elite hacker skills. With skills to repair all that gear you meat-bags damage. I think a droid like R2-D2 with parts of the personality of a droid like HK-47. I shall call him, R2-47 or R2-HK

I know I need to use the main book and using Scavengers' guide to droids will help, but are there any other books or processes that would help to make the droid at first level?

[Sith_Happens]

I shall call him, HK-D2

Fixed that for you. Yes, I know it doesn't make sense, but it sounds the best therefore it is the best. :P

[Blackdrop]

I think you should call him C1-10P, or "Chopper" for short.

[russdm]

So? Which is easier, using the stats from the core rulebook or using Scavengers build a droid?

[Getsugaru]

So? Which is easier, using the stats from the core rulebook or using Scavengers build a droid?

In my opinion, the Scavenger's Guide to Droids is much more of a complete system when it comes to droid building. Do you know your droid budget from your DM? I built a level 8 droid with both combat and utilitarian functions in under my budget of 30000 credits (long story short, the credits were from my other character who had three levels of noble and therefore credits to burn on both a droid and an used ship, which the group most definitely needed).

[Barzotten]

One Question, do i need the heavvy weapon feat to use: blaster rifle (heavy) that does 3d10 damage?

[RandomLunatic]

No. The Heavy Blaster Rifle is listed under rifles, so it uses WP (Rifle), not WP (Heavy).

[Barzotten]

@randomlunatic thanks, it was the heavy part that confused me

[russdm]

In my opinion, the Scavenger's Guide to Droids is much more of a complete system when it comes to droid building. Do you know your droid budget from your DM? I built a level 8 droid with both combat and utilitarian functions in under my budget of 30000 credits (long story short, the credits were from my other character who had three levels of noble and therefore credits to burn on both a droid and an used ship, which the group most definitely needed).

Level 1, and I get maximum starting credits. I haven't decided what class yet, but it is between Noble or Scout/Scoundrel. Slicing skills and equipment repair is big to me, but I like the idea of droid having the Wealth talent as it would be funny.

Using Scavenger's guide to droids to build and using Astromech Chassis.

What I have so far, adding in for droid: Credit Reader, Survival kit, 2 Specialized subproccessors (Bureaucracy, Galactic Lore)

Spoiler

Show

HK-D2 CL 1
Small Astromech Droid scoundrel 1
Init +7; Senses Perception +6
Languages Basic, Binary, Jawa Trade Language, High Galactic, Huttese
Defenses Ref 16 (14 flat-footed), Fort 11, Will 13; 0
hp 18; Threshold 11
Speed
Melee by weapon +0
Ranged blaster pistol +2 (3d6+0)
Base Atk +0; Grp -3
Atk Options Point Blank Shot
Abilities Str 11, Dex 14, Con ─, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 10
Special Qualities 2nd Degree, Droid Traits, Hardwired Design (Mechanics), Skill Focus Mechanics if trained, Mechanics is a class skill
Talents Trace
Feats Point Blank Shot, Tech Specialist, Weapon Proficiency (pistols), Weapon Proficiency (simple)
Skills Initiative +7, Mechanics +13, Perception +6, Pilot +7, Stealth +12, Survival +6, Use Computer +13
Possessions blaster pistol

[Degwerks]

I've gotten somewhat confused on Droids listed in both the Saga Core book and the Scavengers guide.
It shows stats for the droids in 2 forms, one with class levels and the other without. Both forms show the same hitpoints and damage thresholds though. This confuses me to no end. In particular I'm looking at the GY-I Information Analysis Droid.

I was, as a potential character purchase for a Noble, to buy a few droids with my Wealth talent and earned credits. I was looking for a pilot droid with some basic utility functions that I could purchase so I myself or the other members didn't have to waste skills/feats on some things. However, I noticed how a GY-I could be customized as a Financial Wizard, now I'm looking at hard at that to increase my wealth.

Which would be better off for me: 1. Buying a GY-I with my Noble and customizing it into a Financial Wizard and other upgrades OR 2. Playing a Droid Hero and taking Noble as a class and upgrading myself as a Financial Wizard etc...

I'm new to this so all the droid customizing and being a droid hero itself is confusing. Would being a Droid Hero, taking Noble as a Class, and having the Wealth talent allow me to use the Financial Wizard upgrade/mod to allow me to treat my levels in Noble as 2 higher for the credits gained each level as well? If so, I'd re-skin/fluff the Wealth talent to be some kind of Galactic Stock Exchange dividends that are paid out to me each level up.

[Sith_Happens]

...Wrong thread, I think you have.

[Jayngfet]

...so I'm going through the core books as a GM and one of my players is taking a couple of levels in jedi. If my understanding of the system is right it goes like this:

He takes force sensitivity as a bonus feat, upon getting a level in Jedi.

He can't take lightsaber proficiency on his second jedi level, because that's not a bonus feat for the jedi class.

However, the lightsaber combat talent tree doesn't require you to be proficient in the lightsaber. So he can take block, deflect, and throw saber and so long as he never makes a regular attack roll he'll basically be fine. Even then saber based powers don't require you to be proficient in the lightsaber so he can just ignore the proficiency and any time he'd get saber training he could just get force powers instead.

As the inverse, one could have no force sensitivity at all and just take saber proficiency. However, they can use jedi consular talents to still be a totally wise mentor since most of them use persuade as a base and keep UTF optional. They can even go so far as to take battle meditation despite being completely unable to use the force.

This is obviously just a couple of really stupid rules loopholes, and realistically I'm probably just going to houserule them as jedi bonus feats, but it is evidently possible to just take your first level in your base class, the other 19 as straight jedi, but be a complete charlatan about it the entire time.

[Mando Knight]

It's mostly a quirk of RAW that the Jedi class assumes you took it at first level and thus have both of its starting feats (besides WP: Simple, which all the base classes get). It's definitely within your discretion to append Force Sensitivity and/or Lightsaber proficiency as prerequisites to various talents (Acrobatic Recovery is one I'd allow regardless). Adding in the starting feats to a class's bonus feat list is also (AFAIK) a relatively common houserule.

However, they intended to allow non-Force Sensitives to be able to take the class to represent things like training droids or alternate Grievous builds (though the core book puts him at Soldier 8/Elite Trooper 3/Officer 3 instead).

[MeeposFire]

Anybody else think that many advanced melee weapons really don't feel like they should be a separate feat from simple melee? Does anybody really think that a vibrodagger is less like a dagger than a standard axe or a staff? I understand why lightsaber is its own proficiency as a blade with no mass and its properties would take extra effort and has special issues to deal with. A vibrodagger is used just like a dagger it just hurts more due to its powered blade as far as I can tell.

Now of course I can just declare that it requires the proficiency by making up reasons that probably are fairly to very weak and there might be a balance reason (though really is that proficiency really needed for overall balance or did the designers think we needed a martial weapon analogue in Star Wars?) but honestly I really think many advanced melee deserve their own special proficiency.

[Jayngfet]

The issue, as I see it, is that nobody starts with advanced weapon proficiency.

I mean it sounds like the kind of thing Nobles and Soldiers should use as their bread and butter but neither can use them without investment, and Noble isn't really geared to that and Soldiers are mostly better off either focusing on blasters or going Martial Arts for defense bonuses if they want Melee.

Besides, from a raw "cool" perspective if someone is going to invest in extra for short range weapons, they will pick up a lightsaber 100% of the time. They have more feat/talent support if one's multiclassing anyway and do more damage. Availability can be an issue but any party fighting Dark Jedi more than once will invariably have extras and you gotta deal with paperwork anyway.

I mean that's why my player is going the Jedi route anyway. They beat a low level darksider and took his saber. A few lucky rolls happened and now we're just going with it.

[Mando Knight]

The issue, as I see it, is that nobody starts with advanced weapon proficiency.

I mean it sounds like the kind of thing Nobles and Soldiers should use as their bread and butter but neither can use them without investment, and Noble isn't really geared to that and Soldiers are mostly better off either focusing on blasters or going Martial Arts for defense bonuses if they want Melee.

Besides, from a raw "cool" perspective if someone is going to invest in extra for short range weapons, they will pick up a lightsaber 100% of the time. They have more feat/talent support if one's multiclassing anyway and do more damage. Availability can be an issue but any party fighting Dark Jedi more than once will invariably have extras and you gotta deal with paperwork anyway.

I mean that's why my player is going the Jedi route anyway. They beat a low level darksider and took his saber. A few lucky rolls happened and now we're just going with it.

That's a good point. There isn't much danger with distributing the Advanced Melee feat to all of the classes (or just rolling it into Simple) because of that... a vibroblade is only 2d6 and doesn't slice through an AT-AT's leg joint like a 'saber can. Any dangerous outliers can become Exotic weapons. Thanks to the power of blasters, mundane melee is just too niche in Saga and even Jedi mostly lean on that DR negation and general Force Wizardry to make their builds competitive.

[MeeposFire]

The issue, as I see it, is that nobody starts with advanced weapon proficiency.

I mean it sounds like the kind of thing Nobles and Soldiers should use as their bread and butter but neither can use them without investment, and Noble isn't really geared to that and Soldiers are mostly better off either focusing on blasters or going Martial Arts for defense bonuses if they want Melee.

Besides, from a raw "cool" perspective if someone is going to invest in extra for short range weapons, they will pick up a lightsaber 100% of the time. They have more feat/talent support if one's multiclassing anyway and do more damage. Availability can be an issue but any party fighting Dark Jedi more than once will invariably have extras and you gotta deal with paperwork anyway.

I mean that's why my player is going the Jedi route anyway. They beat a low level darksider and took his saber. A few lucky rolls happened and now we're just going with it.

Exactly part of my point. Vibro daggers in particular are said to be used by so many but nobody knows how to use one effectively without putting in the same effort as a blaster and that is knowing how to use a dagger already.

It makes it hard to make you want to use such weapons.

[Barzotten]

I'd like to make a Dw gunslinger but i've got a problem:

1) Should i start as a scout or a scoundrel?

2) would it be possible, considering the limited number of Feats and talents, to also Give him some expertise ad a mechanic/pilot/ ? (like the feat for modifying weapons etc)

3) race: human for maximizing or jawa (just for fun)

Ps: sorry for the horrible format, im writing from mobile

[Mando Knight]

1) Unless you need the number of skills that Scout and Scoundrel have, Soldier is better from a combat perspective as the main class, though Scout is useful for Evasion.

2) While anyone with the appropriate skill trained can pick up Tech Specialist or Vehicular Combat and then Skill Focus to make the checks easier, a dual-wield gunslinger will usually find it too feat-intensive to invest much in piloting because most of your feats won't be usable with both vehicular weapons and dual pistols.

3) For a dual-wield gunslinger, Jawa is at a marked disadvantage because it can't dual-wield Heavy Blaster Pistols (which on average deal an extra point of damage per die compared to regular pistols).

[Philistine]

1) The main reason to incorporate Scout into a Gunslinger build is for easier access to Bounty Hunter for CT-killer builds. A DW Gunslinger won't be a CT-killer, and Scout doesn't have a whole lot to offer for either of the mentioned secondary roles.
The main reason to incorporate Scoundrel into a Gunslinger build is for Point Blank Shot as a free Bonus Feat. If you're really badly Feat starved this might be worth a look, but the bigger HD, full BAB, and access to armor you get with Soldier may well be more valuable.
Are there any other PrCs you're interested in, to combo with Gunslinger? If so, that might give you some guidance.

2) You could go ace pilot or mechanic in addition to DW Gunslinger, depending on level, but you probably can't afford to do both. Pilot has better stat synergy, as both piloting and gunslinging run on Dex while a mechanic needs Int; but there's very little Gunslinger-y stuff that works in the cockpit, which can he frustrating (and means you'll be more Feat starved).

3) Human is always a solid choice, but you might also look at high-Dex species. Jawa depends very much on your GM's sense of humor - and on the length of the campaign, because joke characters have a way of getting old fast.