Underdark

[arixe]

So I've always been fascinated with drowning and the under dark but unfortunately never owned or played any campaign involving those so are there any published 3.5 campaigns or pathfinder equivalent.

Also if any one has played them what are some of the pros and cons

[TheCrowing1432]

Pros

-??????


Cons
-Everything is awful and wants to kill you/eat you/enslave you. Sometimes all three.



There is really no reason to go into the underdark ever unless your campaign's Macguffin happens to be in there. Most parties that go there tend to die within the first encounter or two, unless they are heavilly optimized.

The underdark sucks.

[arixe]

Well sounds like I've made a horrible mistake but there has to be some good things. Mostly where's the fun if any.

[TheCrowing1432]

Well sounds like I've made a horrible mistake but there has to be some good things. Mostly where's the fun if any.

Really depends on what you mean by "fun"


Outside of drow/grey dwarves/illithid cities, theres nothing IN the underdark other then caves, darkness and caves, and darkness oh and did I mention? Caves and darkness.


I mean theres all sorts of interesting creatures that live there, unfortunately most of them are really good at hiding, are really hard to kill and dont carry treasure. So they are walking bags of exp at least.


Aside from the creatures and the caves there are the aforementioned cities.


The Drow/Illithid cities are pretty much kill on sight unless your party happens to be evil and the drow squad that was sent after you is feeling particularly merciful, but I wouldnt hold my breath.

Illthids on the other hand typically enslave other races in order for them to work on their elder brains. A long illthid might be persuaded to leave you alone, but a whole squad? Unlikely, unless again, your party is evil/has a good bargaining chip.


As far as Grey Dwarves go? Well yeah sure, they're evil, but they're also dwarves, much easier to persuade then drow or illithids, anything to do with treasure/riches will typically save your hide here.

Now is there any good races in the underdark? Well, the closest would be the Deep Gnomes, but they tend to be highly isolationist and distrustful of strangers, they tend to be a smattering of TN and NG so that might work in your partys favor if they are good.



If you DO insist on sending your party down there, heres a few tips.

Knowledge and Survival.


You need to know how to survive down there and navigate the deep winding labyrinth. Knowledge Nature/Dungeoneering/Geography/Architecture/Nature/Arcana are all incredibly important to know where you are and what you are fighting.

Food.

There is little to eat and to drink in the underdark unless you know where to find it, chances are your party will be surface folk with little knowledge of where the food and water is located in the underdark. So bring clerics with food creation spells, everfill canteens, infinite rations. Anything to keep starvation at bay.

Power.

The tier list exists for a reason, creatures from the underdark have high LA for a reason. They are powerful and if your DM plays their strengths correctly, they will hit your party hard and fast. You must respond with equal power. Dont bring Bob the fighter who took weapon focus longsword, hes gonna get cut down fast.

Bring Dan the wizard who used divination spells to predict the future so he knows whats coming and what spells to prepare. Bring Steven the Druid who can transform into a dragon when the going gets tough.

[arixe]

So sounds like a overrated overly complicated dungeon

[TheCrowing1432]

So sounds like a overrated overly complicated dungeon

It really is.


I mean it all comes down to your DMing ability. Descriptive language can make even the most mundane forest trail/desert dune sound interesting.

Sure the underdark is all caves and darkness, but with the right atmosphere it can prove to be a very cool adventure..............





.....up until the drow death squad pumps you full of sleep poison, takes your stuff and carts you back to Menzoberanzan to be sacrificed to Loth.

[arixe]

I see I'll save it for players I truly hate.

[jiriku]

I think maybe TheCrowing has had some bad experiences. :P

Underdark adventures can be great fun; many players enjoy getting deep into "hostile territory" and having to fight their way through. Offhand, I can remember the following published adventures in the Underdark:

Descent into the Depths of the Earth
Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
Vault of the Drow
Queen of the Demonweb Pits
City of the Spider Queen

Some are very old and all require at least a little conversion to suit your particular campaign, but they're great, great fun. These modules are considered classics for a very good reason.

[Crake]

I think the biggest thing most people have against the underdark is it being forced upon them. People who don't want to go to the underdark, but feel forced to for plot related reasons wont be having fun there. The few people who DO enjoy going there are free to do so of their own free will, but I share TheCrowing's opinion, the underdark is a really ****ty place, with very little roleplay potention short of masochists who enjoy roleplaying as drow slaves. It's great if you like playing murderhobos in caves, but that's about the extent to which I think it serves a purpose. One long, infinite dungeon crawl with little to no interesting NPCs to interact with? Yeah, no thanks.

Obviously that's entirely my opinion, but forcing a niche play experience in people (and from the sounds of it, it's VERY niche) is not a good way to get people to want to play with you again. This is only made worse if you're not a great DM. Obviously I'm projecting here, I'm sure you wouldn't do that and that you're a great DM, but my experiences with the underdark have been pretty bad. Even in games like neverwinter nights and baldurs gate, I've always found the underdark boring and dreary.

[arixe]

Interesting the dm i started with kind of for lack of a better word romanticized drow. Honestly lolth is one of my favorite gods for the shere corruption factor. Making pcs evil is the best. Like if my players went into the under dark and got consummed by it one way or another id totally use them as villans in the future. But yeah main thing that got me interested was the uniqueness of the underdark

[Crake]

Interesting the dm i started with kind of for lack of a better word romanticized drow. Honestly lolth is one of my favorite gods for the shere corruption factor. Making pcs evil is the best. Like if my players went into the under dark and got consummed by it one way or another id totally use them as villans in the future. But yeah main thing that got me interested was the uniqueness of the underdark

I don't think I've ever read any literature that ever portrayed lolth as having any other relationship with non-drow than "kill, maim, rape, torture". She utterly despises anything not drow, and even amongst drow, they have to prove themselves worthy upon hitting 5th or 6th level to not be turned into a hideous spider monstrosity (driders). So as a goddess of corruption? I don't really see it to be honest. If you want corruption, any number of demon princes, or archdevils fit that bill so much better. I'm honestly of a very similar mind, having corrupted many players over my relatively short time as a DM, but I just don't see how lolth could possibly fit that bill while adhering to the existing literature surrounding her. For corrupting players, Graz'zt works great for power, Malcanthet for lust, Asmodeus for order and heirarchy, Orcus for necromancy, Zuggotmuy for dark nature-types, Demogorgon for psychopathic killer-types, Dagon for all your lovecraft needs and of course who can forget the catch-all Pazuzu for every other possible situation imaginable.

But yeah, if you want corruption of players, unless those players are drow (in which case, aren't they pretty much already there?) I don't see how lolth, who's default stance on non-drow is "I hate you, go die a horrible painful death" could really play the part of corruptor. I mean sure, you can run what you want, but if it's the corruption factor you're looking for then really if there's no interesting NPCs around for the corruption to take effect on (as is the case in the underdark), does it really have any meaning for a player to be "corrupted"? I could rant for hours on this topic to be honest, as corruption plays a huge role in my games, and it's a theme I love to explore. I have yet to fail to corrupt a player who I have set my sights on so far, some to rather beneficial, and others to quite horrible ends.

If you do look to play the corruptor kind of DM, you need to be able to do two things very well: Reward evil played well, and punish evil played poorly.

[arixe]

Sorry that was a scattered thought i ment the underdark is a good place for a corruption story and lolth is an interesting goddess

[Raezeman]

I'm DMing a group where the players encountered a friendly NPC who told them that she and her team was going to the underdark, to the drow city Erelhie-Cinlu to investigate what the drow are up to and do as much as sabotage possible. This mission was planned because the drow have been rather silent for a while and usually means they have some big bad evil plans. The group was to escort this person in exchange for information, and I made up this mission of hers to make the NPC feel like a real person in this world with real objectives, and not just a plothook device to get the group somewhere. The group however basically said: you know, we can sidequest a little and help these people out with their mission in the underdark. So, the group decided they wanted to go to the underdark, so now the next couple of sessions will have them in the underdark disrupting Drow plans and everything!

[Katana1515]

If you're group likes evil games (and my group can't get away from em), the underdark can be a very fun place! Scheming drow politics, espionage and intrigue are great story fodder, and their cities themselves are fascinating settings.

For a more traditional party? The underdark is the 'heart of darkness' the shadowy place where barely understood perils lurk yet great potential wealth or opportunities linger. It's usually best for a fun interval/story arc rather than a whole campaign, but a little imagination can get around this. Perhaps the characters are part of a large dwarf expedition to reclaim lost holdings, or are advance scouts for an avenging army trying to punish a Drow City for its foul crimes against surface dwellers.

[MyrPsychologist]

I love the creatures of the underdark. Mindflayers are some of the absolute coolest things to come out from D&D and their cities are very fascinating. I also happen to have a fascination with the concept of lost civilizations, ruins, and exploration. I even like a lot of the monsters in the underdark and find some to be truly interesting and unique.

That being said, I hate going into the underdark with one of the most intense passions. I'd rather play planar roulette than have an entire campaign set in the underdark. It would be boring drudgery where literally everything is unreasonable and wants to kill, eat, or enslave the party.

If you want to include this hellish place I'd say include it in small doses. You make brief excursions into the underdark for an item or to find something important. You don't stay.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The Underdark simply isn't nuanced or varied enough to be interesting to me. When the default attitude of everything is Hostile, and the default alignment of 95% of the creatures is Evil, there's simply not a lot to do other than fight stuff.

There's an excellent critique of the first two Mass Effect games out there; I'd link but I can't find it. It focuses on one particular interaction in each game. In each, a guard approaches Shepherd with a demand that you surrender your weapons. In the first game, the two possible responses are >Yes and >No. In the second game, the two possible responses are >No and >Hell no. And, in the words of the writer, probably no one ever said yes in the first game. But without the ability to say yes, saying no is meaningless.

And that's why the Underdark mostly sucks.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Really, the Underdark needs just two more major races within it. It needs a good race and a neutral race. Or at least a city or something. It needs a place that can be base camp, a place where characters can have friendly encounters, a place where there can be bonds and affections and protectiveness, so players can feel shocked by betrayal, swear revenge, weep at a funeral... Hell, in reductive terms, a place where a plot hook can just be a plot hook, not a setup to likely betrayal. A place where a PC can talk to an NPC without being treated like poop. Diversity makes settings great.

So here's my question. Other than access to Underdark-specific creatures, what would you gain by setting a campaign in the Underdark versus setting it in Thay or Zhentarim Keep?

[Keltest]

Really, the Underdark needs just two more major races within it. It needs a good race and a neutral race. Or at least a city or something. It needs a place that can be base camp, a place where characters can have friendly encounters, a place where there can be bonds and affections and protectiveness, so players can feel shocked by betrayal, swear revenge, weep at a funeral... Hell, in reductive terms, a place where a plot hook can just be a plot hook, not a setup to likely betrayal. A place where a PC can talk to an NPC without being treated like poop. Diversity makes settings great.

So here's my question. Other than access to Underdark-specific creatures, what would you gain by setting a campaign in the Underdark versus setting it in Thay or Zhentarim Keep?

Dwarves and Svirfneblin. Two races that could reasonably be found that deep that wont try to kill you just for existing (unless youre a Drow, in which case you probably deserve it).

[Duke of Urrel]

I think I agree with the majority who say that the Underdark is an irredeemably dismal place unless the dungeon master really works to make it interesting.

I think a very strong argument can be made for the existence of less boring, less revolting, and above all less immediately deadly zones within the Underdark. Deep gnomes (svirfneblin) and deep hallfings have to live somewhere, and I would like them to know at least some comfort. Moreover, all those nasty races – the drow, derro, duergar, mind flayers, kuo-toa, &c. – need victims to prey upon, and they probably find it just as inconvenient to fetch them above ground as the surface dwellers find it to delve for treasure deep below ground. They should have some victims in their own neighborhood to grab – victims whom the PCs can play a role in rescuing. Sure, the deep gnomes and halflings are suspicious and isolationist when they meet the PCs for the first time, but I imagine they brighten up considerably after the PCs rescue some of them from slavery or worse.

There should be large zones of phosphorescent fungus where PCs don't have to blunder around blindly, but can see an eerie, cavernous landscape in all directions, like a starry night sky back up on the surface, only with stalactites hanging down from it. There should be pristine, even beautiful underground lakes filled with enough tasty blind fish to make the Gollum lick his lips.

And there should be treasure – really big, big treasure that makes all the long trudging through the dark worthwhile. I'm thinking about interplanar portals that open directly into gold, platinum, or diamond veins on the Elemental Plane of Earth.

[Inevitability]

As has been said before, the underdark contains many creatures that are found nowhere else. Maybe the PC's run a small company that gathers body parts of those creatures for use in magical items or as spell components? While it would be a risky job, the rewards would be great too.

At first, they are exploring nothing but a few fungi-infested caves that could barely be considered 'underdark', but as time passes and they level up more and more, they start to fight Carrion Crawlers, Hook Horrors and even aberrations like Aboleths and Mind Flayers.

Some quests might veil something bigger behind them. For example, that random wizard who asked for as many Neothelid hearts as possible? He was a thrall to a mind flayer cabal who wishes those they see as blemishes on the superior race of mind flayers exterminated.

[Oryan77]

I would ignore all these naysayers if you really want to run a game in the underdark. Honestly, I'm surprised by the responses so far. Sounds like nothing more than a bunch of narrow minded critiques and not very helpful to you at all.

You can do whatever you want to do with the underdark and the drow. For one, the drow are definitely not just a single minded hive mind race. They each still have their own goals and personalities regardless of being CN alignment. So, what is being said so far is absolutely not true unless all you do is play them as chaotic stupid. Part of the fun for a DM is getting the chance to toy with the PCs, and what better way to do that than using the drow. Jarlaxle is a great example of a drow that works with other races for his own evil intentions.

Also, not all drow cities kill visitors on sight. The Vault of the Drow details specific areas within the city where visitors are allowed to go as long as they have passes. Besides, if this is an issue, make up a drow city that is more tolerant of other races.

City of the Spider queen is an underdark adventure. It is mostly hack-n-slash, but there are lots of scenarios in there that provide roleplaying opportunities. It depends on the group playing. If they only see the underdark as a place to swing a sword, then that is what it will appear to be. One memorable encounter that I had in that adventure was with a tribe of Stone Giants in the underdark. It was all roleplaying and I never unsheathed my sword.

As DM, I ran Dead Gods (2e Planescape converted to 3.5e) and we spent many session in the underdark. I created an encounter with Myconids which became allies for the PCs. Later on, the Myconids showed up to assist the PCs in a large fight against a band of drow mercenaries.

As to the underdark just being a dark place? There is fungus that can light up caverns, there are lakes, I had an encounter in a mushroom forest, and there are real world photographs of spelunkers roaming around caverns filled with giant crystals (google it, it is spectacular). There is no reason a cavern with a giant crystal "forest" wouldn't exist in the underdark. Really, how is describing the underdark any worse than describing a trek through the woods or any other location? "There's a road, a bunch of trees, more trees, it's day time, now it's night time, oh, a rock, hey more trees!" The underdark is only bland if you want it to be bland and boring.

I say go for it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Dwarves and Svirfneblin. Two races that could reasonably be found that deep that wont try to kill you just for existing (unless youre a Drow, in which case you probably deserve it).

In the default Forgotten Realms setting, neither of those races are as cosmopolitan as I'm thinking is necessary. But you're right, there are some options even if they aren't to my mind ideal. I kinda think adding a city that's like a mini-Sigil would really improve things.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I don't see why everyone is saying PCs will get ganked the second they step into a Drow city. Sure, if they are in the nicer areas that only nobles get to be in. But thats true of non-Noble Drow as well. The slums, where you'd like first enter a Drow City to begin with, has all kinds of non-Drow. With minimal effort, you'll look like some servants out in the market. If your high enough level, your just a mercanary just as well as any other non-Drow Mercenary. Until you start stirring up trouble, the Drow won't bother if your sticking to the slums. Plenty of opportunity there (though I admit it would not be a place I call a safe haven for the PCs).

The real difference between a Drow City and a surface city, as far as the PCs are concerned, is the areas they are unwelcome are bigger in Drow Cities.

[arixe]

Im starting to see the issue here underdark isnt very kick in the door friendly it punishes those who stir up trouble and rewards those with a silver tongue and a quick wit. And the bland ness of underground has never really bothered me. When i looked up the maps for the underdark it looks more like a country the a cave network

[jiriku]

I'm puzzled by those who claim a lack of roleplay opportunities. I have City of the Spider Queen open in front of me right now and nearly every zone that doesn't consist of mindless monsters has at least one NPC or faction that is expressly open to negotiating with surface-dwelling PCs. The module also includes a suggestion to run it with the PCs representing a competing drow faction or a group of other Underdark races, and notes places in which doing so would open up more roleplay options, or make existing options easier. Now, I can see how a kick-in-the-door style of play by the PCs or an all-evil-creatures-attack-on-sight mentality by the DM would shut off a lot of these roleplay opportunities, and people who aren't comfortable making deals with drow, duergar, and mind flayers might avoid doing so even when the opportunity is there... but... the opportunity is there.

[unseenmage]

Really, the Underdark needs just two more major races within it. It needs a good race and a neutral race. Or at least a city or something. It needs a place that can be base camp, a place where characters can have friendly encounters, a place where there can be bonds and affections and protectiveness, so players can feel shocked by betrayal, swear revenge, weep at a funeral... Hell, in reductive terms, a place where a plot hook can just be a plot hook, not a setup to likely betrayal. A place where a PC can talk to an NPC without being treated like poop. Diversity makes settings great.

So here's my question. Other than access to Underdark-specific creatures, what would you gain by setting a campaign in the Underdark versus setting it in Thay or Zhentarim Keep?

There is this book for 3.x D&D. I believe it's called the Underdark, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It has these races in it... And a couple of them aren't even evil. Isolationist and Neutral to the point of being useless but not evil.

Gloamings are neutral (IIRC) and they glow like a torch. Again, IIRC, they're nomadic and splintered and don't do cities well. But they're not evil.
There's also a very deep city full of the descendants of an ancient race. They are also non-evil but they're also isolationist.

The last time a DM ran me through the Underdark it was on the underground equivalent of roads. Ran into some interesting characters and had some tense moments. Just like adventuring down a free road on the surface. Mind we stuck to the Upperdark (first 7 miles of depth) where things are relatively safe but the DM and I both knew what to expect if we went any deeper.

And also I poured a lake filled with a Sahuagin army down a chasm into the Lowerdark. Turns out water's pretty scarce down there in places and I upset quite a few economies down in the very deepest spots.


My advice, don't let a few naysayers OR a few fanboys (myself included) color your expectations. Read the Underdark book yourself and take from it what you can. That's what you're supposed to do with any campaign setting book IMHO.

[arixe]

Lol i see an oppertunity to do a funny culture studdy those who assume all drow are evil are unreasonable and attack them on sight as well as though those who go into the under dark to understand what makes it tick. Im not saying all drow will negotiate or there arnt mindless beasts that will try to attack on sight. But i bet the players that get ganked have a dm or a party member that assume all drow kill or enslave all non drow. Its a prejudiced issue with the player and dm not the race

[MyrPsychologist]

Im starting to see the issue here underdark isnt very kick in the door friendly it punishes those who stir up trouble and rewards those with a silver tongue and a quick wit. And the bland ness of underground has never really bothered me. When i looked up the maps for the underdark it looks more like a country the a cave network

No.

The Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things. You can't outwit and charm a drow slaving party. They aren't interested in your non-drow explanations. You are their source of money and power and they just want you. You can't reason with a mindflayer because it's goal is literally to consume your brain. etc for like almost everything in the Underdark.

It's a place that rewards stealth. You hide, you watch, you learn. Come unprepared to a fight and you WILL die. Get ambushed and you WILL die. It's a very cuthroat place where the only assumption you can safely make is that you are not safe. nothing will help you.

This is why it's bland. It's not that it's underground that makes it bland. It's that encountering NPCs will always roughly go the same. Watch them, figure out what they are, kill them. Repeat. Players don't really need to concern themselves with other avenues of approach because they're just encountering something that is automatically hostile and evil.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No.

The Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things. You can't outwit and charm a drow slaving party. They aren't interested in your non-drow explanations. You are their source of money and power and they just want you. You can't reason with a mindflayer because it's goal is literally to consume your brain. etc for like almost everything in the Underdark.

It's a place that rewards stealth. You hide, you watch, you learn. Come unprepared to a fight and you WILL die. Get ambushed and you WILL die. It's a very cuthroat place where the only assumption you can safely make is that you are not safe. nothing will help you.

This is why it's bland. It's not that it's underground that makes it bland. It's that encountering NPCs will always roughly go the same. Watch them, figure out what they are, kill them. Repeat. Players don't really need to concern themselves with other avenues of approach because they're just encountering something that is automatically hostile and evil.

Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.

And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.

Underdark is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.

[unseenmage]

...

Underdark Any campaign setting is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.

Italicized and edited for emphasis.