Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Psyren]

However you choose to characterize it, I'm glad Toriyama changed his tune because Beerus' predecessors were extremely weaksauce.

I agree, let's leave the real-world religious stuff out.

Likewise, Whis is stronger than Beerus and can turn back time because his job is to teach, mind, attend to, train, and fix the mistakes of the Gods of Destruction.

And yet he also has more destructive power too, since he can knock Beerus out with one thwack and effortlessly take on two SSGs simultaneously when just one pushed Beerus to 70% capacity. So clearly his job description is not related to his strength, but rather his attitude.

[Rater202]

And yet he also has more destructive power too, since he can knock Beerus out with one thwack and effortlessly take on two SSGs simultaneously when just one pushed Beerus to 70% capacity. So clearly his job description is not related to his strength, but rather his attitude.

1: I do believe I accounted for that-Whis isn't just Beerus's attendant, he's his teacher and personal trainer. This is stated right in the movie.

Training and Teaching the God of Destruction(or hell, just flat out teaching gods, maybe) are part of his god of destruction.

There's only so much you can teach to someone, martial arts wise, that's significantly stronger than you.

Thus, in order to properly train the god of destruction, Whis must be stronger than the God of Destruction.

2: Didn't we already get over how raw power wasn't necessarily the mark of a god in this setting?

[Psyren]

1: I do believe I accounted for that-Whis isn't just Beerus's attendant, he's his teacher and personal trainer. This is stated right in the movie.

Training and Teaching the God of Destruction(or hell, just flat out teaching gods, maybe) are part of his god of destruction.

There's only so much you can teach to someone, martial arts wise, that's significantly stronger than you.

Thus, in order to properly train the god of destruction, Whis must be stronger than the God of Destruction.

Right, I got that - but it also shows that "his job is destruction" is not necessarily tied to "he is frighteningly strong," since the guy whose job is not destruction (and is in fact nearly the opposite) is even more frighteningly strong. Thus that isn't much of an excuse for the other "divine" figures' comparative weakness.

2: Didn't we already get over how raw power wasn't necessarily the mark of a god in this setting?

Indeed, and I pointed out the other things that made them qualify - time manipulation, traveling the cosmos unaided, capricious/callous behavior etc.

Kami certainly does not qualify since, like Piccolo, he needs to drink water and breathe, and/or if Piccolo were to ever stop doing the same, he would die too. Not very godlike, or even spiritual, attributes, at least in my mind.

But regardless, my point was actually "that may have been the mark of a god in this setting back when middling/weak spirits that called themselves gods could pass muster. Toriyama it seems is moving away from that, to the truly awe-inspiring." And I was signalling my approval for that move (which may be influenced by my own Western upbringing, as I stated.)

[Rater202]

Yes, and Whis also pointed out that Beerus could die in Goku's life time.

[Jayngfet]

I think people are missing the "point" of DBZ gods.

Korin, Kami, ect. are all gods, but obviously they were surpassed long before Cell and probably before Dragonball even ended. They command phenomenal power, this much can't be denied, but that Goku and friends could surpass them is just a demonstration that Goku can do basically anything through raw fighting power. That's also the point of Roshi's spiel about the "real" strength of Turtle style martial arts: that through enough effort and technique, you can break past normal human limits and go further beyond.

Yenma, Kaio, and the others seen in early Z are a level beyond even that, but it's established almost as quickly that reaching and surpassing that tier is the bare minimum for survival. The raw feats of strength and speed needed are as such that even their god tiered powers aren't even a tenth of bare minimum, because things were escalating to such a degree that you had to go from planetary to cosmic almost overnight.

The point of Dabura and Kaioshin are to show that, in addition to beating Frieza and Cell to become the strongest in the universe, they'd essentially become so powerful that they were the strongest in any universe. Gohan barely even had to try and he still beat the king of demons with a powerup, and while Toriyama likes the idea of a demon king that he's made like half a dozen of them, remember that proportionally Goku broke all his limbs trying the same against Piccolo, and if filler counts he only even survived fighting another such king on pure luck. They were so unimaginably strong that they were essentially able to brute force past the cosmic order and the idea of prophecy and damn any consequences. It's basically the ultimate denial of power levels, that even the highest of high can't fully comprehend that kind of power.

[Psyren]

Yes, and Whis also pointed out that Beerus could die in Goku's life time.

Putting aside that he made that throwaway remark in a very droll/joking manner, he didn't specify how Beerus would die for that event to take place. Gods dying in fiction is not out of the ordinary (Morgoth, Mystra, the entire Norse pantheon in Ragnarok etc) - so long as the means is sufficiently supernatural it's still believable. Kami and King Kai meanwhile can die by comparatively mundane means.

I think people are missing the "point" of DBZ gods.

Korin, Kami, ect. are all gods, but obviously they were surpassed long before Cell and probably before Dragonball even ended. They command phenomenal power, this much can't be denied, but that Goku and friends could surpass them is just a demonstration that Goku can do basically anything through raw fighting power. That's also the point of Roshi's spiel about the "real" strength of Turtle style martial arts: that through enough effort and technique, you can break past normal human limits and go further beyond.

Yenma, Kaio, and the others seen in early Z are a level beyond even that, but it's established almost as quickly that reaching and surpassing that tier is the bare minimum for survival. The raw feats of strength and speed needed are as such that even their god tiered powers aren't even a tenth of bare minimum, because things were escalating to such a degree that you had to go from planetary to cosmic almost overnight.

The point of Dabura and Kaioshin are to show that, in addition to beating Frieza and Cell to become the strongest in the universe, they'd essentially become so powerful that they were the strongest in any universe. Gohan barely even had to try and he still beat the king of demons with a powerup, and while Toriyama likes the idea of a demon king that he's made like half a dozen of them, remember that proportionally Goku broke all his limbs trying the same against Piccolo, and if filler counts he only even survived fighting another such king on pure luck. They were so unimaginably strong that they were essentially able to brute force past the cosmic order and the idea of prophecy and damn any consequences. It's basically the ultimate denial of power levels, that even the highest of high can't fully comprehend that kind of power.

Yep - until the real gods show up and tell them they've barely scratched the surface. Sounds like my cup of tea.

[Lord Raziere]

no seriously, Psyren, thats not how gods in DB work. DB is just a wuxia taken up to over 9000 and beyond and with science-fiction added. if DB was at a lower level of power- the gods would still be weaker than the protagonist.

instead of North Kai, you'd have Goku like, helping a local rice goddess from all her crops being stolen by bandits so that a village could eat again, or fighting guys who kidnapped a river god and want to use him to exact tolls from people crossing the river...

to be a close as possible: or climbing up a mountain to learn from a mountain god of how to use the Kaio-ken or Spirit Bomb techniques so that he can go defend his village from incoming martial artists, but the mountain god himself is like "no I'm not doing it myself, I'm a mountain god, I guard this mountain and nothing else, grasshopper, your lucky that your good enough that I'm training you to do this yourself" and then when Goku goes to fight the big warlord named Freeza that sent the martial artists in another province trying to find the Dragon Balls to become immortal, the mountain god is like "whatever, I don't care, I'm a mountain god and I guard this freaking mountain, do this yourself." and when Goku fights the evil monster Cell created by the sorcerer Gero, the mountain god is like "do I look like a guy strong enough to fight that? no I'm not strong enough to fight that, all I do is guard a freaking mountain all day, he is a sorcerous thing created specifically to destroy stuff and be the greatest martial artist ever, I can't compete with that." and so when the demon Buu is resurrected by the sorcerer Babidi and poses a threat to Heaven itself, they send some Celestial God, but thing is said god has been mostly filing paperwork in heaven for thousands of years and while has had some time to polish up his kung-fu, that kind of takes back seat to his actual godly duties so he doesn't do it as much as he likes, while this Goku guy who is defending his village who has been doing it constantly, he is kicking Buu's ass like no tomorrow and eventually defeats him and saves his village.

the gods being useless or massive jerks is a long respected wuxia tradition. all DBZ did was carry on that tradition into the age of the space opera.

[Rater202]

no seriously, Psyren, thats not how gods in DB work. DB is just a wuxia taken up to over 9000 and beyond and with science-fiction added. if DB was at a lower level of power- the gods would still be weaker than the protagonist.

instead of North Kai, you'd have Goku like, helping a local rice goddess from all her crops being stolen by bandits so that a village could eat again, or fighting guys who kidnapped a river god and want to use him to exact tolls from people crossing the river...

to be a close as possible: or climbing up a mountain to learn from a mountain god of how to use the Kaio-ken or Spirit Bomb techniques so that he can go defend his village from incoming martial artists, but the mountain god himself is like "no I'm not doing it myself, I'm a mountain god, I guard this mountain and nothing else, grasshopper, your lucky that your good enough that I'm training you to do this yourself" and then when Goku goes to fight the big warlord named Freeza that sent the martial artists in another province trying to find the Dragon Balls to become immortal, the mountain god is like "whatever, I don't care, I'm a mountain god and I guard this freaking mountain, do this yourself." and when Goku fights the evil monster Cell created by the sorcerer Gero, the mountain god is like "do I look like a guy strong enough to fight that? no I'm not strong enough to fight that, all I do is guard a freaking mountain all day, he is a sorcerous thing created specifically to destroy stuff and be the greatest martial artist ever, I can't compete with that." and so when the demon Buu is resurrected by the sorcerer Babidi and poses a threat to Heaven itself, they send some Celestial God, but thing is said god has been mostly filing paperwork in heaven for thousands of years and while has had some time to polish up his kung-fu, that kind of takes back seat to his actual godly duties so he doesn't do it as much as he likes, while this Goku guy who is defending his village who has been doing it constantly, he is kicking Buu's ass like no tomorrow and eventually defeats him and saves his village.

the gods being useless or massive jerks is a long respected wuxia tradition. all DBZ did was carry on that tradition into the age of the space opera.

Well put, Raziere.

[Lord Raziere]

Well put, Raziere.

Yup. Wuxia Rule Number One:
IN THE MYSTICAL RIDICULOUSNESS OF MYTHICAL ASIA, THERE IS ONLY KUNG-FU.

It is the only strength that matters, the only thing that solves anything in this genre, the only reason this genre exists. Even in peace, the only thing that matters is showing people kung-fu fighting a tournament non-lethally for fun. It matters not whether your a god, a robot, a dragon or super-demon cyborg Cthulhu, either your kung-fu is strong...or you lose.

[Rater202]

It's also a good thing to remember that, well, um, the godly characters we see in Dragonball are still stronger than like, 90% of the universe. It's just, the mortals who exceed them were either just that badass, had special training, mystical assistance, super science assistance, or some combination of all of the above.

Goku is a particularly badass member of a badass warrior race, was trained by, in order, a quasi immortal, centuries old sage world renouned as the worlds greatest martial artist; A cat shaped minor deity that is also a sage and, a supernatural guardian of earth who was born when an alien wizard split himself into his good and evil haves and is literally named "God", the god who oversees the northerns quadrant of the universe, that god's direct superior in at least the anime(Grand Kai didn't appear in the manga, but he was mentioned. I don't remember if his training Goku was canon or if that was part of the filler), and, most recently, the strongest god in Goku's universe. Goku has trained in environments exceeding Earth's gravity several times. His species has both an inherent ability to get significantly stronger every time they almost die and a legendary, mystic transformation that Goku has unlocked and mastered almost every form of, Goku drank a potion that supposedly brings out your hidden potential once, and he temporarily became a god once... only to absorb the godly power and thus become a god for real once he mastered it.

Piccolo: Is the Reincarnation/Son of the demon born from the aforementioned space wizard's expelled evil, is probably a mutant, considering said demon's other children were, goes through some intense training on a regular basis, and fused both with the strongest warrior of his race and the aforementioned space wizard guardian(and fusion is a multiplicative force in dragonball)

Gohan, the son of the aforementioned badass alien and a woman who was at one time considered to be the strongest woman on the planet. Has apparently inherited only the best traits from his parent races. Went through levels of training that would make a spartan flinch, had his potential unlocked by an elder sage/alien wizard, went through more training from hell from both of the aforementioned badasses, spent a year in a harse environment designed to be the ultimate place to train, doing nothing but training with his badass father, learned his races legendary transformation, and had his potential unlocked again, by one of the gods who rules he universe.

Vegeta is a prodigious member of the aforementioned badass race. Other than that, take everything from Goku's, replace all of the mystic mumbo jumbo(other than the becoming a god and training with the strongest god) with even more gravity training, and add some lasers and a helping of being surrounded by people with power levels in the upper 100,000s and millions.

Frieza... Belongs to an alien race that can survive the cold vacuum of space, doesn't need to breath,a and doen'st lose memory, personality, self awareness no matter how damaged their brains are(seriously, Frieza was just an eye for a while in resurrection F), and is incredibly resistant. I addition, Frieza is a super powered mutant member of his race with oceanic potential.

17 and 18: Violate multiple laws of physics by possessing generators that rapidly produce infinite amounts of energy with no apparent input

Cell: All of the above that happened by the time of his creation, plus the 2-5 strongest humans on earth, two other Saiyans, Frieza's dad, and Gamikai knows what else.

Majin Buu: The Original Majin Buu is an Eldritch Abomination, and this property carries onto his other forms. the second Majin Buu, created when the original's good half was separated from the rest of him permanently, is a weaker eldritch abomination and also only exists in the first place because Majin Buu ate two of the strongest gods and thus gained their power.

This isn't something every Tom, Richard, and Harry mortal can do. These are the best of the best of the best.

[Jayngfet]

Yup. Wuxia Rule Number One:
IN THE MYSTICAL RIDICULOUSNESS OF MYTHICAL ASIA, THERE IS ONLY KUNG-FU.

It is the only strength that matters, the only thing that solves anything in this genre, the only reason this genre exists. Even in peace, the only thing that matters is showing people kung-fu fighting a tournament non-lethally for fun. It matters not whether your a god, a robot, a dragon or super-demon cyborg Cthulhu, either your kung-fu is strong...or you lose.

I think a lot this would be cleared up by reading Journey to the West, Sun Wukong does similar and even greater feats with great regularity. His weapon is 20,000 tons and he wields it with great ease, this is actually one of the main reasons use considered powerful to the point where even Super Saiyan God is probably weaker.

Remember that his main plan early on was actually to overthrow all of the gods and he was strong enough that they were all convinced he could probably do it. He's regularly shown fighting gods and demonstrate outnumbered thousands to one without having any real problems and bullying dieties around like nerds on a playground. The entire point of the story is that the incredibly powerful have to slow down and think.

[Psyren]

the gods being useless or massive jerks is a long respected wuxia tradition. all DBZ did was carry on that tradition into the age of the space opera.

To repeat myself again: I'm not saying it's not authentic. I'm saying I'm glad he's changing that/introducing deities that more fit the Western ideal of what a deity is. That's all. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that Beerus/Whis appearance was the first time anyone in the series even said "god" in the Japanese version.)

So parroting at me how authentic it is over and over is pointless. Me am western sensibilities no care. Capisce?

[Jayngfet]

To repeat myself again: I'm not saying it's not authentic. I'm saying I'm glad he's changing that/introducing deities that more fit the Western ideal of what a deity is. That's all. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that Beerus/Whis appearance was the first time anyone in the series even said "god" in the Japanese version.)

So parroting at me how authentic it is over and over is pointless. Me am western sensibilities no care. Capisce?

Kami is literally the japanese word for God. The manga outright just calls him "god" as his regular name. It's clear at the time he was introduced that he was intended to be it. The be all, end all deity of the world. In Japanese storytelling as far as I'm familiar "Kami" is even usually the word used to denote that specific type of god.

Though I have a sneaking suspicion Toriyama set up the alien thing from the beginning since he reused a bunch of design elements for Piccolo from previous aliens from Dr. Slump. But then much like the ruler of hell, who "god" is supposed to be or look like depends heavily on how Toriyama feels during that story and at that moment.

[Prime32]

To repeat myself again: I'm not saying it's not authentic. I'm saying I'm glad he's changing that/introducing deities that more fit the Western ideal of what a deity is. That's all. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that Beerus/Whis appearance was the first time anyone in the series even said "god" in the Japanese version.)

No, it's just the first time anything's been translated as "god", because censors are less strict about that nowadays. Same reason "HELL" and "Mr. Satan" can be used now, rather than "HFIL" and "Hercule". "Super Saiyan God" uses the English word, but everything Saiyan-related is named in English, and turning yourself into a god through spiritual perfection is not a Christian concept. The Japanese title of the movie (Dragonball Z: Kami & Kami) does not use the English word.

So parroting at me how authentic it is over and over is pointless. Me am western sensibilities no care. Capisce?

The majority of people you're arguing with (if not all of them) also have "western sensibilities", and the majority of Western religions have had an "ideal of what a deity is" that's fully compatible with DBZ.

Dragonball gods are not written just to be "authentic" to something, they're following the writer's own religious beliefs. They did not decide for this movie "Oh well, our religion is incorrect, better use the correct one.". They just introduced a guy who can hit harder, and is otherwise no different from the god characters who've come before.

[Psyren]

Kami is literally the japanese word for God.

I meant that Beerus actually says "godu" in a westernized way. To me it is telling.

(And no, in episode 2 he mentions it before even knowing that what he's looking for is a Saiyan, so the Anglocization of all things Saiyan is not a factor.)

No, it's just the first time anything's been translated as "god", because censors are less strict about that nowadays. Same reason "HELL" and "Mr. Satan" can be used now, rather than "HFIL" and "Hercule".

Jap DBZ never censored any of that even in the 90s, so this theory is out.

"Super Saiyan God" uses the English word, but everything Saiyan-related is named in English, and turning yourself into a god through spiritual perfection is not a Christian concept. The Japanese title of the movie (Dragonball Z: Kami & Kami) does not use the English word.

The majority of people you're arguing with (if not all of them) also have "western sensibilities", and the majority of Western religions have had an "ideal of what a deity is" that's fully compatible with DBZ.

Dragonball gods are not written just to be "authentic" to something, they're following the writer's own religious beliefs. They did not decide for this movie "Oh well, our religion is incorrect, better use the correct one.". They just introduced a guy who can hit harder, and is otherwise no different from the god characters who've come before.

Okay, first off, can we stop dropping the J-word and the C-word (you'll note I haven't mentioned either even once.) Not only is it going to get the thread locked, it isn't even the only western mythical influence out there. Beerus for instance is clearly influenced by Egyptian mythology.

Second, Whis goes far beyond "guy who can hit harder." He can literally teleport from planet to planet, disable other gods with a single touch, and even rewind time itself. Kami and King Kaiou can't do that, and Kaioushin can only jump back to the Kaioushin planet. The magnitude of difference is not merely in physical power.

Third and final, in no way did I say Toriyama thought "our religion is incorrect" or anything along those lines. I'm saying the series is incorporating a broader perspective on what such a being truly entails. Yemma and Kai did not go anywhere, to my knowledge, but now we have entities that are truly awe-inspiring alongside them.

[Jayngfet]

I meant that Beerus actually says "godu" in a westernized way. To me it is telling.

(And no, in episode 2 he mentions it before even knowing that what he's looking for is a Saiyan, so the Anglocization of all things Saiyan is not a factor.)

It tells nothing but that Toriyama wrote himself into a corner and used a word that means the exact same thing.

Okay, first off, can we stop dropping the J-word and the C-word (you'll note I haven't mentioned either even once.) Not only is it going to get the thread locked, it isn't even the only western mythical influence out there. Beerus for instance is clearly influenced by Egyptian mythology.

Second, Whis goes far beyond "guy who can hit harder." He can literally teleport from planet to planet, disable other gods with a single touch, and even rewind time itself. Kami and King Kaiou can't do that, and Kaioushin can only jump back to the Kaioushin planet. The magnitude of difference is not merely in physical power.

Third and final, in no way did I say Toriyama thought "our religion is incorrect" or anything along those lines. I'm saying the series is incorporating a broader perspective on what such a being truly entails. Yemma and Kai did not go anywhere, to my knowledge, but now we have entities that are truly awe-inspiring alongside them.

People will use concepts when they're literally the only actual things that refer to what you're talking about. When you say "western god" you clearly aren't referring to Zeus or Thor or Ra or any other western god who's mortal and flawed and capable of losing fights, or having to stack up against larger than life mortals capable of measuring on their own merits without them.

If you mean something, say it. Don't weasel around it and deny it when we fill in your blanks for you.

[Psyren]

It tells nothing but that Toriyama wrote himself into a corner and used a word that means the exact same thing.

I disagree.

People will use concepts when they're literally the only actual things that refer to what you're talking about. When you say "western god" you clearly aren't referring to Zeus or Thor or Ra or any other western god who's mortal and flawed and capable of losing fights, or having to stack up against larger than life mortals capable of measuring on their own merits without them.

If you mean something, say it. Don't weasel around it and deny it when we fill in your blanks for you.

"Flawed and capable of losing fights" does not at all equate to "mortal." Thor lost plenty of fights and even died in Ragnarok, and I'm pretty sure I brought this up explicitly ten posts ago. So please don't tell me what I mean when I've already told you what I mean. I am purposely avoiding real-world religion and sticking to fantasy myths for a reason.

[Jayngfet]

I disagree.

Your disagreement is meaningless. That's very much how Toriyama works and he explains his methodology in these situations at length multiple times in interview. Hell, even it being in english means nothing. Toriyama has a long history of just using random english words for no reason or signifigance, except maybe to signify minor differences that barely matter.

Toriyama's explicit statements on his work and what it means or doesn't mean trump your feelings.

"Flawed and capable of losing fights" does not at all equate to "mortal." Thor lost plenty of fights and even died in Ragnarok, and I'm pretty sure I brought this up explicitly ten posts ago. So please don't tell me what I mean when I've already told you what I mean. I am purposely avoiding real-world religion and sticking to fantasy myths for a reason.

Nobody called them "mortal".

...and don't weasel out of this with "fantasy myths". A myth is a myth is a myth. They come from real world history and deserve to be treated as such.

[Calemyr]

Maybe it would help to define things so that we're not talking in circles.

To my mind, there are basically three kinds of gods represented in the DB franchise:

The Genius: Territorial guardians given status suited to their strength. A Genius is not supposed to rule their territory, but rather protect. They have a clear hierarchy based on power, with a feudalistic division of responsibility, and origin does not preclude membership - mortals are welcome if they have the right mentality and raw power for the job. Korin, Kami, and the Kaiou are examples of the Genius, as is the princess of Snake Way and even the Ox King.

The Bureaucrat: Managers of how the universe works. They maintain the systems that keep everything operating, such as the afterlife. Their raw power is important, to defend their duty, but their real power is in their authority. If they say the ghost of a dead man can go home for a day to attend a tournament, it doesn't matter if they personally have the magic to bring people back to life, they just open the door and say "see you tomorrow". We don't see many Bueaucrats, but Yemma is one.

The Divine: Power and Authority are things mortals can comprehend and even attain. Even god-like levels are attainable, if you've got the talent, the opportunity, and the heart. The strength of the Divine is something else entirely. The Divine operates according to a different set of rules than anyone else, capable of accomplishing the impossible with no effort but sometimes struggling to do what mortals do as routine. Cause and effect seem to have no correlation from a mortal perspective beyond what seems like arbitrary rituals and mystical mumbo-jumbo. The dragons are the clearest example of this. Possibly Buu as well, though that would be a hard case to argue.

I believe Psyren is simply saying that the franchise has, thus far, been dominated by Geniuses, with only cameos from other gods. This only makes sense, as this is a Shonen setting and the Genius is basically the fighter class of deities. Our new entries, Whis and Beerus, however, would fit the classification of Divine better than Genius. This is a bit of a changeup to the pattern - not bad, just different, and notably so.

[Prime32]

Okay, first off, can we stop dropping the J-word and the C-word (you'll note I haven't mentioned either even once.)

You've been mentioning them right from the start. Except you keep calling it "the universal Western ideal of a god", then excluding every Western god as "not real gods" unless they're exactly the same as the Christian one. You can't get around discussing oranges by calling them "the fruit that grows on an orange bush". You have directly stated that multiple real-world religions are wrong, and that a writer who is not even Christian is backing you up.

He is not. You are reading way too far into things, bringing your religion into the topic despite multiple people asking you not to, then claiming it doesn't count because it's not just what you believe, it's objectively true. Please stop.

I meant that Beerus actually says "godu" in a westernized way. To me it is telling.

(And no, in episode 2 he mentions it before even knowing that what he's looking for is a Saiyan, so the Anglocization of all things Saiyan is not a factor.)

The words are interchangeable. Japanese people insert English words all the time, Saiyans just have it as a running theme. Even direct representations of Shinto gods have been depicted as saying in English "I am a god" in the middle of a Japanese-language conversation, and it's not considered unusual.

Jap DBZ never censored any of that even in the 90s, so this theory is out.

That doesn't even follow from what I said. Let me try again.
The movie did not introduce a new term for "real gods" like you're claiming. Kaioshin means "World King God". Hakaishin means "Destruction God". The term Kaioshin was not translated directly because it was seen as inappropriate at the time. The movie keeps the existing translation for Kaioshin, and translates Hakaishin literally.

[Rater202]

I'd like to nitpick and point out that Whis can't teleport.

That's a claim that was made.

Teleportation is instant movement between to points without occupying any of the points between them.

Whis glows and moves really fast.

As in, we see him in spaces between his origin and destination, and he calculates how long his travel takes

[Psyren]

...and don't weasel out of this with "fantasy myths". A myth is a myth is a myth. They come from real world history and deserve to be treated as such.

So by your logic, we can't talk about OotS, D&D, or Marvel movies here because they all contain Thor, right?

You know what, fine, forget it. I'd rather not have the the thread get locked so I'll agree to disagree and drop it. I'm happy with the introduction of Whis and Beerus and what I feel that means for the setting, and that's where I'll leave it.

[Jayngfet]

Maybe it would help to define things so that we're not talking in circles.

To my mind, there are basically three kinds of gods represented in the DB franchise:

Excepting, of course, that every shown diety is actually also depicted as a powerful and genius martial artist. Kami was Piccolo's equal at introduction and Korin's training put Goku ahead of every other mortal fighter in under a week. Even King Yenma, a man who spends literally all of his time behind a desk, is depicted with a phenomenal amount of skill and power to quiet any restless dead without issue. Hell, Guru trained Nail up to the point where he could almost stand against Freeza, and he was intended to be the sole full warrior for an entire world.

There is no divide between beaurocrat and warrior in DB cosmology. Every god has to handle their own paperwork and train their own warriors personally. All of the planetary gods, all of the cosmic gods, even the supreme deities.

So by your logic, we can't talk about OotS, D&D, or Marvel movies here because they all contain Thor, right?

You know what, fine, forget it. I'd rather not have the the thread get locked so I'll agree to disagree and drop it. I'm happy with the introduction of Whis and Beerus and what I feel that means for the setting, and that's where I'll leave it.

Hey, some people still worship the dude, so it's not my place to make that call. You see a problem, take it up with The Giant.

As for "what that means", lets not pretend they didn't sell Super months in advance by claiming they had some super villain capable of surpassing even Beerus and Whis. Meaning the cycle is still in effect and nothing has changed.

[Spamotron]

One little tidbit before the discussion moves on. In the manga Eldest Kai said that the being who sealed him in the Z sword was weaker than Buu. In an interview Akira Toriyama said that the one sealed who Eldest Kai way was Beerus.

The implication is that Beerus wasn't always anywhere near as powerful as he is today.

My interpretation is that Beerus isn't really powerful because he's the God of Destruction but because he trained really hard for a really long time under Whis.

[Rater202]

I brought that up already, but I think it got overlooked.

[Prime32]

My interpretation is that Beerus isn't really powerful because he's the God of Destruction but because he trained really hard for a really long time under Whis.

Beerus wanted Goku to inherit the position of God of Destruction after he died, because he thought Goku's powers would make him qualified for it. So yeah.

lets not pretend they didn't sell Super months in advance by claiming they had some super villain capable of surpassing even Beerus and Whis. Meaning the cycle is still in effect and nothing has changed.

Beerus has already been left behind. Apparently Goku and Vegeta working together in their "Saiyan Beyond God" forms are capable of matching him, and that's without going Super Saiyan or fusing together. A "Super Cyan" Gogeta/Vegito would presumably be capable of wiping the floor with even Whis.

[Spamotron]

Beerus wanted Goku to inherit the position of God of Destruction after he died, because he thought Goku's powers would make him qualified for it. So yeah.

Beerus has already been left behind. Apparently Goku and Vegeta working together in their "Saiyan Beyond God" forms are capable of matching him, and that's without going Super Saiyan or fusing together. A "Super Cyan" Gogeta/Vegito would presumably be capable of wiping the floor with even Whis.

Not quite. It was Whis who offered Goku the position of reserve God of Destruction not Beerus.

Second Whis said that Goku and Vegeta fighting together with Beerus would be a good fight that they might win. At the time he said that they had already both attained Super Cyan and he almost definitely knew about it. So as of Revival of F max power transformed Goku and Vegeta are probably each about 70-80% of Beerus strengthwise and Golden Freiza was probably around 90% before he started to weaken.

Man, given the demonstrated difference in Dragonball between a transformation just attained and a transformation fully mastered (See the difference between the Goku who first fought Frieza and the Goku who spared with Trunks a year later, a less fair comparison is the Goku who fought Frieza and the Goku who fought Perfect Cell but he had 5 years of doing nothing but train to attain that.) a more patient Freiza who took another 6 months to train before attempting his revenge is a scary thought.

[Lord Raziere]

To repeat myself again: I'm not saying it's not authentic. I'm saying I'm glad he's changing that/introducing deities that more fit the Western ideal of what a deity is. That's all. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that Beerus/Whis appearance was the first time anyone in the series even said "god" in the Japanese version.)

So parroting at me how authentic it is over and over is pointless. Me am western sensibilities no care. Capisce?

so your just blatantly being ethno-centrist then? right. not gonna lie: I don't like you or that attitude.

[Psyren]

so your just blatantly being ethno-centrist then? right. not gonna lie: I don't like you or that attitude.

You're right, this discussion got unnecessarily heated and I apologize. I still stand by my strong preference for Beerus and Whis over the other spirits that make up DB's Celestial Bureaucracy thus far, but I didn't need to cop the attitude that went along with that and I'll give the metaphysical aspects of that portrayal a wider berth going forward. They're all aliens in the end anyway.

[Lord Raziere]

You're right, this discussion got unnecessarily heated and I apologize. I still stand by my strong preference for Beerus and Whis over the other spirits that make up DB's Celestial Bureaucracy thus far, but I didn't need to cop the attitude that went along with that and I'll give the metaphysical aspects of that portrayal a wider berth going forward. They're all aliens in the end anyway.

kay, apology accepted. hope we don't have any discussions like that in the future and that we can all just discuss DB and enjoy those discussions. nice change of pace for once.