An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time! *golf clap*

[Psyren]

I know I like to make fun of Egwene, but at least when she's insufferable she usually actually knows what's she's talking about. Mat doesn't have that benefit. He is both annoying and stupid, and he has become my least favorite character by far.

Hang in there with Mat, things do get better. I was in the same boat as you at this point in the series and he quickly became one of my favorites. (If this thread is any indication, he ended up pretty popular all around.)

They find an abandoned camp, and there's evidence that the Trollocs ate some of the Darkfriends, which again makes me question why anyone would ever want to be part of this club.

Hurr durr evulz!

Actually, Traab really covered this one well - nobody ever thought their payday loan would get called. Remember that a lot of Darkfriends are placed pretty high up (there's a certain someone to thank for that) and so they've been both working behind the scenes and recruiting dupes over the years that never actually thought the oaths would mean anything but a quick ticket to a higher-up's friend list. Only, surprise! The Dragon is reborn and the Shadow has instituted a draft. Sucks to be a pawn.

Enough of that insanity though, the men have found something in the village meeting place. A dead Fade has been nailed to the doors with spikes through its wrists, shoulders and eyes. So on the one hand, that's a Fade they no longer have to worry about. On the other hand, there's something more powerful than a Fade they have to worry about. Maybe it's on our side?

Oh yeah, because that whole section just screams "Light side"

You'll want to think back to book 1 on this one - just because something eats Trollocs/Fades doesn't make it good.

@ryuplaneswalker

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

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I love this part, it is what makes me a huge fan of Ingtar.

Agreed, you totally believe his fall due to expert foreshadowing like this.

Spoiling the quote too as this is that big a twist.

[ryuplaneswalker]

@Psyren

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The Entire Plot with Ingtar is great, his reasons for joining were quite sensible, as was his desire to come back to the light, he knows who Rand is and he is trying to teach Rand about leading because he knows Rand is going to lead the forces of the light, culminating in him dying to protect the savior of the world. The twist also caught me by complete surprise the first time I read it.

[Adderbane]

I don't think we've had Mat as a pov character yet. He's a better character when we get to see what he thinks of all the crazy stuff that has been happening to the three musketeers.

[Psyren]

I don't think we've had Mat as a pov character yet. He's a better character when we get to see what he thinks of all the crazy stuff that has been happening to the three musketeers.

His first POV is

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in Book 3 when he wakes up in Tar Valon, IIRC. So we have a pretty long wait ahead.

The good news of course is that he never gets quite as bad in this book as he was in Book 1.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hello everyone! I'm new to the thread, but I've spent all of today reading through it, so I have a rough idea of what's been going down. Loving the little bits of humour in the recaps! Made me laugh out loud several times

I've only just started reading the WoT - picked up the first book a few weeks ago and am now about 25% through the fourth - so it was nice to see the thread and know that I'm not alone. Can't wait for the next update!

A quick profile, to make up for my absence up to this point:
Favourite character: Nynaeve
If I were Aes Sedai, I would be: Brown Ajah
Stance on gender politics: I'm giving Jordan the benefit of the doubt, but the books do occasionally make me feel a little queasy
Confession time: Every time I see the words "Lews Therin", I hear in my head "Louis Theroux"

[Douglas]

I've only just started reading the WoT - picked up the first book a few weeks ago and am now about 25% through the fourth - so it was nice to see the thread and know that I'm not alone. Can't wait for the next update!

Oh, you're getting close to one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. When you've read chapters 25 and 26 (The Road to the Spear, and The Dedicated), I'd like to see your thoughts on it (in a spoiler block so An Enemy Spy won't get spoilered, of course).

Stance on gender politics: I'm giving Jordan the benefit of the doubt, but the books do occasionally make me feel a little queasy

For quite a lot of the series, the genders are antagonistic to each other, and a lot of what happens is showing that this state of affairs is dysfunctional. Scholars of the Age of Legends know that all the greatest achievements were done by men and women working together, but that's been forgotten and even rejected to some degree by most of the rest of the world.

Confession time: Every time I see the words "Lews Therin", I hear in my head "Louis Theroux"

Do you similarly distort other Age of Legends names? Barid Bel Medar, Elan Morin Tedronai, Mierin, Ilyena, and um, that's all I can think of offhand.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Do you similarly distort other Age of Legends names? Barid Bel Medar, Elan Morin Tedronai, Mierin, Ilyena, and um, that's all I can think of offhand.

Not so much with the Age of Legends folk, but I definitely do it to some of the 'present day' characters. Randall Thor and Allan Mandragoran especially.

Sometimes I wish someone like Pat Rothfuss could go through all the WoT books and replace every single proper noun...

[Traab]

Not so much with the Age of Legends folk, but I definitely do it to some of the 'present day' characters. Randall Thor and Allan Mandragoran especially.

Sometimes I wish someone like Pat Rothfuss could go through all the WoT books and replace every single proper noun...

I once created a warrior in the world of warcraft game named Rendalthor. Not sure why I wanted to share that, but at the time it amused me.

[Psyren]

For quite a lot of the series, the genders are antagonistic to each other, and a lot of what happens is showing that this state of affairs is dysfunctional. Scholars of the Age of Legends know that all the greatest achievements were done by men and women working together, but that's been forgotten and even rejected to some degree by most of the rest of the world.

Even that progressive message is undermined by some odd/arbitrary design choices though. Men are generally stronger psychically, to match them being generally stronger physically, despite muscles not playing a factor with mental strength. When a man and a woman link together, the man must take control while the woman must be passive, and cannot even break the link until he wants to. Women can link and work together, while men arbitrarily can't and must be lone wolves. Men are better with the more directly combat-applicable elements (Earth and Fire). The most powerful channeler/Creator's right hand is always male, as is the Dark One's. The one power source that is actually equal in every respect springs completely from evil. Even the methods of connecting to the Source are rooted in gender stereotypes - men actively seize/grab hold of it, while women passively open up and let it flow in.

[Anteros]

There is a female equivalent to the Dragon, according to Jordan. Ameresu or something, for when the pattern needs a female Dragon figure.

Spoiler: slightly spoiler bits

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She's not the Dragon itself, because that's always Rand's soul, not because the Dragon has to be male.

I think people don't get that Jordan introduces 90% of these gender stereotypes in order to subvert them. Actually pay attention the next time a character is saying something sexist. They're always blatantly wrong about what they're saying. 99% of the time.

It's not sexist to have differences between the genders. Genders are different. It's a simple, objective, scientific fact. Men are better at some things, while women are better than others. Honestly, for all the rumblings about misogyny, the women in the series are mostly far more capable than the men.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Men are better with the more directly combat-applicable elements (Earth and Fire).

That is some definitely YMMV, Air is involved with 2 of the most common combat weaves, Lightning and "Tying people up" and the second outright ends 99% of the fights they are involved in and the best "earth" weave users in the cast is a female. That could have been one of those things that Aes Sedai say..that is complete bunk and based on nothing.

[Traab]

Spoiler: Psyren quote

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Even that progressive message is undermined by some odd/arbitrary design choices though. Men are generally stronger psychically, to match them being generally stronger physically, despite muscles not playing a factor with mental strength. When a man and a woman link together, the man must take control while the woman must be passive, and cannot even break the link until he wants to. Women can link and work together, while men arbitrarily can't and must be lone wolves. Men are better with the more directly combat-applicable elements (Earth and Fire). The most powerful channeler/Creator's right hand is always male, as is the Dark One's. The one power source that is actually equal in every respect springs completely from evil. Even the methods of connecting to the Source are rooted in gender stereotypes - men actively seize/grab hold of it, while women passively open up and let it flow in.

I think some of that counts as spoilers personally so I will set it up like that and respond in kind to the parts I dont agree with.

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The linking thing is a bit hinky because while men cant link together, it requires men to go beyond the certain point of women who can link themselves. I want to say 13, or 11, I dunno. Point being, they need a man to go beyond a certain sized circle. As for combat, I would say men are better at the flashier style of combat, but it also helps that combat is pretty much all they were taught. Its like the difference between specializing and being a generalist. The women have a buttload more flexibility than the men, because the men were taught virtually nothing but how to wield their half of the one power as a weapon. Also, as someone said, a lot of the general gender stereotypes are pretty clearly put there to be subverted, or otherwise shown how they are wrong. Male or female.

[snowblizz]

I think some of that counts as spoilers personally so I will set it up like that and respond in kind to the parts I dont agree with.

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The linking thing is a bit hinky because while men cant link together, it requires men to go beyond the certain point of women who can link themselves. I want to say 13, or 11, I dunno. Point being, they need a man to go beyond a certain sized circle. As for combat, I would say men are better at the flashier style of combat, but it also helps that combat is pretty much all they were taught. Its like the difference between specializing and being a generalist. The women have a buttload more flexibility than the men, because the men were taught virtually nothing but how to wield their half of the one power as a weapon. Also, as someone said, a lot of the general gender stereotypes are pretty clearly put there to be subverted, or otherwise shown how they are wrong. Male or female.

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Don't quite get the whole angst about men being needed to increase circles. Like that somehow means they are better. And it's 13. 13 women are stronger than any single man. And to avoid that no 2 men can combine their strength. Yet, to get to the real heights you need both men and women, so neither is better than the other. Some of the smallest circles have finicky rules yes, but they go both ways. But the strongest circles are always balanced. Which surprise surprise is kinda a theme in the books. All "rules" are going to be arbitrary, but the in-universe strives for balance.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Oh, you're getting close to one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. When you've read chapters 25 and 26 (The Road to the Spear, and The Dedicated), I'd like to see your thoughts on it (in a spoiler block so An Enemy Spy won't get spoilered, of course).

Spoiler: Book 4, Chapter 25

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So, the first thing that strikes me here is that I can't see Rhuidean in my mind's eye. The descriptions feel clumsy and unfocussed, and I have almost no idea what this place is supposed to look like. How do you all imagine it?

Anyway, Rand's seeing visions again. The Heart of Rhuidean is kind of like an audio-visual museum, with a procession of 4D presentations of the history of the Aiel. Convenient. Seems like the Jenn followed the same philosophy of absolute non-violence that the Tuatha'an do. Perhaps that's why the Aiel respect the tinkers so much?

Okay, so I know that Jordan has cleaved very closely to the law of conservation of detail so far, but do we really need to know how the Iklwa was invented (re-invented, I suppose) in Randland? I cannot for the life of me see why this has been included. Is it just to bulk out the 'rule of three' and allow us to count the number of generations between the visions?

Lewin's story makes more sense (from a narrative point of view). The Aiel are the Tuatha'an. I don't recall the tinkers in book one being described in the same terms as Aiel, but I suppose we hadn't seen any Aielmen at that point so I wouldn't have known what to look for. Hah! Lewin actually "lowered his dustveil with foreboding"! One of the things An Enemy Spy said that made me laugh was "That's near Toman Head, Rand thinks forebodingly."

And... that's it. Clearly the story continues in the next chapter.

Spoiler: Book 4, Chapter 26

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We're back to the Time of Madness, now. It'd be interesting to read a whole story set in this time; I've got a novel on the back-burner that's set in a similar world.

*Reads*

What made you pick these two chapters out as your favourites, Douglas? They're just one long expository infodump.

I guess it's not just teenage protagonists that don't communicate effectively, eh? If every Aiel clan chief passes through these pillars, every one of them knows the nature of the lost song that the Tuatha'an seek. Yet in how many thousands of years, not one of them thought to say anything?

Eesh. Muradin's not doing well, is he?

Mat Cauthon really needs to be more careful with his wishes. "I want to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power"? That was just begging to be monkey-pawed. At least Rand passed his Medicine check... I wonder if Matty will rise again, harder and stronger?

[ryuplaneswalker]

RE details

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Iklwa was invented (re-invented, I suppose) in Randland? I cannot for the life of me see why this has been included.

Because this is the first Far Dareis Mai, without the first Maiden of the Spear Rand would not exist.

Perhaps that's why the Aiel respect the tinkers so much?

Respect is the absolute wrong word there, you mean Revile, the Aiel loath the tinkers. That is why the message from book 1 was such a big deal, It was important enough for an Aiel to talk which means "The world is literally ending"

I don't recall the tinkers in book one being described in the same terms as Aiel, but I suppose we hadn't seen any Aielmen at that point so I wouldn't have known what to look for.

The tinkers are also several thousand years removed from the Aiel and have been taking in Wetlanders into the Wagons for generations, the vast majority of the Aiel traits would have been bred out of them over the centuries.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Respect is the absolute wrong word there, you mean Revile, the Aiel loath the tinkers. That is why the message from book 1 was such a big deal, It was important enough for an Aiel to talk which means "The world is literally ending"

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Guess I misunderstood that then. I though the Aiel killed everyone except tinkers because they liked the tinkers for some reason.

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The tinkers are also several thousand years removed from the Aiel and have been taking in Wetlanders into the Wagons for generations, the vast majority of the Aiel traits would have been bred out of them over the centuries.

Yeah, that had been my assumption.

[Misery Esquire]

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Guess I misunderstood that then. I though the Aiel killed everyone except tinkers because they liked the tinkers for some reason.

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It's more like meeting the relatives when your folks all know that you're a serial killer, but aren't going to do anything about it except quietly judge you for it. ...Alright, that's a terrible metaphor. I'm just going to write out the explanation instead.

The Aiel are proud about being warriors, about being #1 stabbers in the world while disdaining weapons that are purely for killing other people - but their name (Aiel) meant Dedicated, or to be more precise - Dedicated To Pacifism (or peaceful service? Hard to say.). They were sacrificing themselves by the thousand just to hopefully at sing a mad Aes Sedai, they were kidnapped, murdered and robbed a thousand times and did nothing about it while they tried to move ter'/sa'/angreal for the Aes Sedai. They assume they've always had a history of being the best at fighting, but they're really just the failures.

The Jenn (True) Aiel kept both halves of their past, and died out for it. The Tinkers are those who failed to keep their promise to the Aes Sedai about protecting the stuff, but kept the true Aiel way of nonviolence. The Aiel failed to keep their promise, and they started killing people, violating X hundred(s)/thousand(s) of years of peacefulness.

The Aiel don't bother the Tinkers because they don't want to be reminded of being the losers of the set, in their own eyes. Sort of a mysterious generational cultural guilt that, except for the Chiefs, no one can remember the source of. And the Chiefs really don't want to talk about it, having relived the failures personally. They dropped out of the biggest obligation and ruined the oldest tradition in history. Ji'e'toh, the basis of their lives, is entirely about the dynamics wherein repayment of obligation and honouring of (good) traditions rule, and the chiefs know that their nation is six hundred miles into debt. And they know that their cousins the Tinkers, those traitors, could/would know.

Which is largely the explanation for their fatalism as well - I mean, aside from living in an Australian desert for a thousand years.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: Book 4, Chapter 25

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So, the first thing that strikes me here is that I can't see Rhuidean in my mind's eye. The descriptions feel clumsy and unfocussed, and I have almost no idea what this place is supposed to look like. How do you all imagine it?

Anyway, Rand's seeing visions again. The Heart of Rhuidean is kind of like an audio-visual museum, with a procession of 4D presentations of the history of the Aiel. Convenient. Seems like the Jenn followed the same philosophy of absolute non-violence that the Tuatha'an do. Perhaps that's why the Aiel respect the tinkers so much?

Okay, so I know that Jordan has cleaved very closely to the law of conservation of detail so far, but do we really need to know how the Iklwa was invented (re-invented, I suppose) in Randland? I cannot for the life of me see why this has been included. Is it just to bulk out the 'rule of three' and allow us to count the number of generations between the visions?

Lewin's story makes more sense (from a narrative point of view). The Aiel are the Tuatha'an. I don't recall the tinkers in book one being described in the same terms as Aiel, but I suppose we hadn't seen any Aielmen at that point so I wouldn't have known what to look for. Hah! Lewin actually "lowered his dustveil with foreboding"! One of the things An Enemy Spy said that made me laugh was "That's near Toman Head, Rand thinks forebodingly."

And... that's it. Clearly the story continues in the next chapter.

Spoiler: Book 4, Chapter 26

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We're back to the Time of Madness, now. It'd be interesting to read a whole story set in this time; I've got a novel on the back-burner that's set in a similar world.

*Reads*

What made you pick these two chapters out as your favourites, Douglas? They're just one long expository infodump.

I guess it's not just teenage protagonists that don't communicate effectively, eh? If every Aiel clan chief passes through these pillars, every one of them knows the nature of the lost song that the Tuatha'an seek. Yet in how many thousands of years, not one of them thought to say anything?

Eesh. Muradin's not doing well, is he?

Mat Cauthon really needs to be more careful with his wishes. "I want to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power"? That was just begging to be monkey-pawed. At least Rand passed his Medicine check... I wonder if Matty will rise again, harder and stronger?

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It's a big load of exposition, sure, but it's a very well done load of exposition where nearly all of it is significant in some way, and drastically changes perspective on an entire major culture without seeming awkwardly forced.

Before these two chapters, the Aiel are a grand society of proud warriors. Over the course of Rand's visions, you learn through gradual progression how they are in truth the descendants of incredible tragedy, turned nearly the complete opposite of what they once were through hardship so great it outright broke their heartfelt beliefs. I was pretty close to crying when I first finished these chapters.

And woven throughout, you also see many seeds of present day culture, most of them now forgotten to all but those who see these visions, but still with lasting effects on the world. I summarized all of these points in this post, there's at least one and sometimes multiples in each scene except maybe the last one.

[Saph]

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It's a big load of exposition, sure, but it's a very well done load of exposition where nearly all of it is significant in some way, and drastically changes perspective on an entire major culture without seeming awkwardly forced.

Before these two chapters, the Aiel are a grand society of proud warriors. Over the course of Rand's visions, you learn through gradual progression how they are in truth the descendants of incredible tragedy, turned nearly the complete opposite of what they once were through hardship so great it outright broke their heartfelt beliefs. I was pretty close to crying when I first finished these chapters.

And woven throughout, you also see many seeds of present day culture, most of them now forgotten to all but those who see these visions, but still with lasting effects on the world. I summarized all of these points in this post, there's at least one and sometimes multiples in each scene except maybe the last one.

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I love that section for exactly that reason – you see SO many of the Aiel traditions being formed. :) I think I like the Portal Stone alternate-lifetimes passage in the Great Hunt even more, though.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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I think I like the Portal Stone alternate-lifetimes passage in the Great Hunt even more, though.

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Oh man, I loved that sequence too! I think The Great Hunt is my favourite book overall so far.

[Anteros]

What made you pick these two chapters out as your favourites, Douglas? They're just one long expository infodump.

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like these chapters either. They're long, boring, and don't advance the story at all. They are very good exposition on the setting, but I always skip them on re-reads.

[ryuplaneswalker]

@ninja_prawn

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Guess I misunderstood that then. I though the Aiel killed everyone except tinkers because they liked the tinkers for some reason.

Na, it is more like "Kill everyone but them..because they have cooties and if we get near we might get cooties"

[Gnoman]

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The Aiel don't bother the Tinkers because they don't want to be reminded of being the losers of the set, in their own eyes. Sort of a mysterious generational cultural guilt that, except for the Chiefs, no one can remember the source of. And the Chiefs really don't want to talk about it, having relived the failures personally. They dropped out of the biggest obligation and ruined the oldest tradition in history. Ji'e'toh, the basis of their lives, is entirely about the dynamics wherein repayment of obligation and honouring of (good) traditions rule, and the chiefs know that their nation is six hundred miles into debt. And they know that their cousins the Tinkers, those traitors, could/would know.

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Quite the opposite. The Aiel don't interact with the Tinkers because the Tinkers are honorless dogs that broke their oath and caused many of the items the Aes Sedai entrusted to the Aiel to be lost because the loss of manpower prevented carrying them. The Aiel kept that oath as best they could - everything that the Tinkers didn't cause to be lost is safely stored at Rhuidean. Remember that %99+ of the Aiel have no idea that they used to be pacifists. What I find most amusing about these chapters, although it is never mentioned in the book, is that the Aiel are already a "remnant of a remnant", and the Aiel prophecies would be fulfilled even if every last one of them had survived.

[Misery Esquire]

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Quite the opposite. The Aiel don't interact with the Tinkers because the Tinkers are honorless dogs that broke their oath and caused many of the items the Aes Sedai entrusted to the Aiel to be lost because the loss of manpower prevented carrying them. The Aiel kept that oath as best they could - everything that the Tinkers didn't cause to be lost is safely stored at Rhuidean. Remember that %99+ of the Aiel have no idea that they used to be pacifists. What I find most amusing about these chapters, although it is never mentioned in the book, is that the Aiel are already a "remnant of a remnant", and the Aiel prophecies would be fulfilled even if every last one of them had survived.

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I included the note that the Tinkers were the traitors, and while the general Aiel have no idea that they were pacifists pre-Rand they also have no idea how they failed Aes Sedai, which means they've forgotten why the Tinkers would be the traitors - thus mysterious part. The distaste/guilt is handed down, but they have no idea why.

Besides, we know how they react to oathbreakers, see the interaction with Cairhieni during the series. They don't avoid them, they would be killing them, or at least looting all their stuff, if it weren't for Rand.

Also ; that's one strong prophecy. Forget self-fulfilling, this one is already done when it was made.

[Psyren]

There is a female equivalent to the Dragon, according to Jordan. Ameresu or something, for when the pattern needs a female Dragon figure.

Spoiler: slightly spoiler bits

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She's not the Dragon itself, because that's always Rand's soul, not because the Dragon has to be male.

I think people don't get that Jordan introduces 90% of these gender stereotypes in order to subvert them. Actually pay attention the next time a character is saying something sexist. They're always blatantly wrong about what they're saying. 99% of the time.

It's not sexist to have differences between the genders. Genders are different. It's a simple, objective, scientific fact. Men are better at some things, while women are better than others. Honestly, for all the rumblings about misogyny, the women in the series are mostly far more capable than the men.

I'd like to see that Jordan quote, can you link to it?

But even if femDragon exists somewhere, the problem is

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that the story doesn't mention her anywhere. Thus the story is perpetuating DudeDragon as OnlyDragon, despite (as Jordan's own quote above supports) the role itself not needing to be specific to one gender for any concrete reason.

Spoiler: Psyren quote

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I think some of that counts as spoilers personally so I will set it up like that and respond in kind to the parts I dont agree with.

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The linking thing is a bit hinky because while men cant link together, it requires men to go beyond the certain point of women who can link themselves. I want to say 13, or 11, I dunno. Point being, they need a man to go beyond a certain sized circle. As for combat, I would say men are better at the flashier style of combat, but it also helps that combat is pretty much all they were taught. Its like the difference between specializing and being a generalist. The women have a buttload more flexibility than the men, because the men were taught virtually nothing but how to wield their half of the one power as a weapon. Also, as someone said, a lot of the general gender stereotypes are pretty clearly put there to be subverted, or otherwise shown how they are wrong. Male or female.

Spoiler: Male Channelers

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"The male channelers are only for fighting" is a product of this Age, because that's why Rand needed them - to fight in TG. But the restrictions on how they can channel and the elements they're good at extended all the way back to the AoL, if not even further, when male channelers were doing plenty of other things (like science) and war was practically unheard of because the DO was sealed. So again, why?

@Douglas/Ninja/Saph:

Spoiler: Pillars

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I thought the "jump back through Rand's ancestors" chapters were also extremely well done, and they are part of the reason why TSR is my favorite book. Well, second-favorite - I think my actual favorite was after Sanderson took over and kicked the story in the pants.

What's really cool is rereading those bits and noticing how every single character who is next in the chain was either seen or mentioned by someone further down. And then being able to see the Breaking through their eyes and how horrible it was, as well as seeing the beginning of it all during the AoL itself, how even right as the war was won and the Dark One sealed away that evil was still very much alive in the world, hinting at all the darkness to come. And flashing forward to the present and seeing Rand, reacting to the whole mess with sheer puzzlement, but Muradin (who was raised Aiel) couldn't handle what he was seeing and ended up never coming out. You learn a lot, not just about the setting as a whole and about all the wheels that moved to put our protagonist where he needed to be, but the nature of TAR and prophecy too.

[ryuplaneswalker]

@Psyren

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that the story doesn't mention her anywhere. Thus the story is perpetuating DudeDragon as OnlyDragon, despite (as Jordan's own quote above supports) the role itself not needing to be specific to one gender for any concrete reason.

The reason a DudeDragon is perpetuating is because the side of the one power you touched is linked directly to the soul, that why Halima uses the male half even after he is stuffed into a female body, and I do not think that having to deal with Gender Identity issues is something we need to pile upon The Dragon since The Dragon is very likely something that gets dropped into the pattern only when the Dark One shows up to screw around.

[Psyren]

@Psyren

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The reason a DudeDragon is perpetuating is because the side of the one power you touched is linked directly to the soul, that why Halima uses the male half even after he is stuffed into a female body, and I do not think that having to deal with Gender Identity issues is something we need to pile upon The Dragon since The Dragon is very likely something that gets dropped into the pattern only when the Dark One shows up to screw around.

You're missing/proving my point:

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I know that the Dragon is clearly a dude - there are no "gender identity issues." I also clearly know that gender is tied to the soul in Randland as proven by Halima. That's the problem - when Ishamael points out that he and Rand have been going at it for aeons, he clearly means their souls (which are both male) have been doing battle across all that time. In other words, throughout history, it's always been the same Dragon saving the world - the same guy. Different faces, different names, same soul, and always using the male half of the power (saidin) to do so, since his soul is male.

Thus, the story itself is saying "there was never a female Dragon." It presents no evidence to the contrary. It further underscores the notion that women in Randland have a supporting role - they can help the Dragon, but never be the Dragon. For a setting that has so many strong female characters (in particular, the choice to make its "Gandalf" archetype a woman) it's a little disappointing is all. Apparently Jordan countermanded this in an interview somewhere if Anteros is accurate (which Jordan wouldn't have felt the need to clarify unless he found the situation as irksome as I do) - but even if that's true, the fact remains that his setting as written doesn't reflect that.

[ryuplaneswalker]

You're missing/proving my point:

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I know that the Dragon is clearly a dude - there are no "gender identity issues." I also clearly know that gender is tied to the soul in Randland as proven by Halima. That's the problem - when Ishamael points out that he and Rand have been going at it for aeons, he clearly means their souls (which are both male) have been doing battle across all that time. In other words, throughout history, it's always been the same Dragon saving the world - the same guy. Different faces, different names, same soul, and always using the male half of the power (saidin) to do so, since his soul is male.

Thus, the story itself is saying "there was never a female Dragon." It presents no evidence to the contrary. It further underscores the notion that women in Randland have a supporting role - they can help the Dragon, but never be the Dragon. For a setting that has so many strong female characters (in particular, the choice to make its "Gandalf" archetype a woman) it's a little disappointing is all. Apparently Jordan countermanded this in an interview somewhere if Anteros is accurate (which Jordan wouldn't have felt the need to clarify unless he found the situation as irksome as I do) - but even if that's true, the fact remains that his setting as written doesn't reflect that.

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You are assuming that The Dragon is the -only- world saving hero tied to the wheel, which he isn't he is just the Jesus archetype. The Pattern drops whichever archetype that is tied to the pattern in whichever situation is needed. Presumably in one turning of the wheel if The Female Half gets tainted the pattern would have..Egwene or Nyneave's soul be The Savior, there are some hundred Heroes tied to the pattern so it is very probable that the pattern doesn't make female Dragons because it has someone to handle "Powerful Female Chaneler" when the situation is needed.

Also, you can't trust most of what Ishamael/Elan Morin/Moridin says at face value, the guy has a VERY high opinion of himself, heck with the cyclical nature of the pattern, The Dragon vs Ishamael can happen once a cycle and still have happened 1000 times, and at least one of Ishamael's rants has to be wrong since he says "From the Dawn of time" which implied an original beginning which goes against the basis of the series.

[Psyren]

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You are assuming that The Dragon is the -only- world saving hero tied to the wheel, which he isn't he is just the Jesus archetype. The Pattern drops whichever archetype that is tied to the pattern in whichever situation is needed. Presumably in one turning of the wheel if The Female Half gets tainted the pattern would have..Egwene or Nyneave's soul be The Savior, there are some hundred Heroes tied to the pattern so it is very probable that the pattern doesn't make female Dragons because it has someone to handle "Powerful Female Chaneler" when the situation is needed.

Also, you can't trust most of what Ishamael/Elan Morin/Moridin says at face value, the guy has a VERY high opinion of himself, heck with the cyclical nature of the pattern, The Dragon vs Ishamael can happen once a cycle and still have happened 1000 times, and at least one of Ishamael's rants has to be wrong since he says "From the Dawn of time" which implied an original beginning which goes against the basis of the series.

Spoiler: Voices

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"He's the Jesus" is a cop-out in my mind. Again, why?

The problem with Isshy as an unreliable POV is that LT never seems to believe otherwise, suggesting that Isshy is telling the truth. He questions everything else Ishamael tells him, except the fact that they HAVE fought since time immemorial. Also, neutral voices (like the various prophecies) only ever mention a DudeDragon too.

Even the Creator(?) perpetrates this silliness:

"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

If a FemDragon is possible, dropping a single line about it in thousands of pages of book should have been fairly easy to do. It would have been nice, is all.

[lord_khaine]

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I honestly dont see the issue with the dragon being a male. From my reading it were made clear that he were just one among many heroes that the wheel spun in and out of its weaving.
We were also shown that there were a fairly equal mix of genders among the heroes of the horn.