An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time! *golf clap*

[Mato]

The problem with the Aes Sedai is that it is UNJUSTIFIED arrogance.

That harks back to what I touched on before and the underlaying themes.

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Remember, the female gender is supposed to guide and not lead (see saidar vs saidin). With saidin corrupted, women found them selves cast into the role of leadership and they not only did a very poor job at it, which while semi-excusable since it's against their nature, they also refused to give it up. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Now the underlaying theme for males is they are told what to do and they screw up until they learn to ignore everyone else and do what they are meant to do. Rand's stumbling and ideas of getting harder until the all screw it moment, Perrion cast as a lord by his wife and battle commander by those other people, Mat the tag along whose refusal to conform leads to some of the greatest deus ex machinas in the series, even Thom falls into this to some degree and Logain's base desire was to help the world but he was pushed to and fore and basically used as a puppet as he seeked power to break free of that until he... Well you know. And then there are the brothers, all of them are based on them struggling with how to do what they need to do and the answer is to be them selves.

For women, it's basically learn your place. The women in the series are terrible people and they're designed to make you want someone to put them in their place. And they kind of do, the best are the ones that are accept things the most. Elayne and the Asian queen are dragged through the mud and forced to learn how to work with people but they don't really get all that much better. Egwane's story in tldr is punished for everything that goes wrong and look at her final. Morraine is tame compared to the rest but she's operating on a hidden idea and struggles with it, but just in case you missed things even the other characters point out she's better after taking her vow. Nynaeve was the worst but in contrast she becomes one of the best, truly embracing compassion and love. She's also written in as the most powerful when her negative traits don't get in the way which isn't even subtle there. But it gets even more obvious, Miss Silverbow is pretty much the best women in the series and her introduction was her saying lead me. A vast majority of the characters simply go through different arcs of learning to be submissive and how they refuse it, but the more and more they accept it the more things actually get done.

[Reddish Mage]

That harks back to what I touched on before and the underlaying themes.

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Remember, the female gender is supposed to guide and not lead (see saidar vs saidin). With saidin corrupted, women found them selves cast into the role of leadership and they not only did a very poor job at it, which while semi-excusable since it's against their nature, they also refused to give it up. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Now the underlaying theme for males is they are told what to do and they screw up until they learn to ignore everyone else and do what they are meant to do. Rand's stumbling and ideas of getting harder until the all screw it moment, Perrion cast as a lord by his wife and battle commander by those other people, Mat the tag along whose refusal to conform leads to some of the greatest deus ex machinas in the series, even Thom falls into this to some degree and Logain's base desire was to help the world but he was pushed to and fore and basically used as a puppet as he seeked power to break free of that until he... Well you know. And then there are the brothers, all of them are based on them struggling with how to do what they need to do and the answer is to be them selves.

For women, it's basically learn your place. The women in the series are terrible people and they're designed to make you want someone to put them in their place. And they kind of do, the best are the ones that are accept things the most. Elayne and the Asian queen are dragged through the mud and forced to learn how to work with people but they don't really get all that much better. Egwane's story in tldr is punished for everything that goes wrong and look at her final. Morraine is tame compared to the rest but she's operating on a hidden idea and struggles with it, but just in case you missed things even the other characters point out she's better after taking her vow. Nynaeve was the worst but in contrast she becomes one of the best, truly embracing compassion and love. She's also written in as the most powerful when her negative traits don't get in the way which isn't even subtle there. But it gets even more obvious, Miss Silverbow is pretty much the best women in the series and her introduction was her saying lead me. A vast majority of the characters simply go through different arcs of learning to be submissive and how they refuse it, but the more and more they accept it the more things actually get done.

Yes. That sums up the essential themes of WoT.

[Anteros]

Yes. That sums up the essential themes of WoT.

Bullpocky. These themes aren't present at all. In fact, you'd have to almost intentionally misinterpret the entire series to arrive at this.

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Is there even a single submissive female in the entire series? Birgitte? The only person she can even be argued to be submissive towards is another woman. Nynaeve isn't submissive and all and she's awesome. Min isn't submissive and she's portrayed positively. Egwene actually becomes likable by the end of her arc and it certainly isn't through submissiveness to a man. There is not a single female character arc where they "learn their place" to be submissive to a man. Not a single one!

Both male and female characters have their arc where they come into themselves and become the people the Pattern needs them to be.

[Kitten Champion]

Bullpocky. These themes aren't present at all. In fact, you'd have to almost intentionally misinterpret the entire series to arrive at this.

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Is there even a single submissive female in the entire series? Birgitte? The only person she can even be argued to be submissive towards is another woman. Nynaeve isn't submissive and all and she's awesome. Min isn't submissive and she's portrayed positively. Egwene actually becomes likable by the end of her arc and it certainly isn't through submissiveness to a man. There is not a single female character arc where they "learn their place" to be submissive to a man. Not a single one!

Both male and female characters have their arc where they come into themselves and become the people the Pattern needs them to be.

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The general theme of the work I read was disharmony between men and women leads to suffering and its restoration is implicit in maintaining the world's balance, which relates to the theologies represented in his work.

Besides that, Jordan's female characters are based off of his wife, at least according to him.

[The_Snark]

Bullpocky. These themes aren't present at all. In fact, you'd have to almost intentionally misinterpret the entire series to arrive at this.

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Is there even a single submissive female in the entire series? Birgitte? The only person she can even be argued to be submissive towards is another woman. Nynaeve isn't submissive and all and she's awesome. Min isn't submissive and she's portrayed positively. Egwene actually becomes likable by the end of her arc and it certainly isn't through submissiveness to a man. There is not a single female character arc where they "learn their place" to be submissive to a man. Not a single one!

Both male and female characters have their arc where they come into themselves and become the people the Pattern needs them to be.

Mmmm, I don't know. Speaking as someone who is fond of the series, I do not like that interpretation, and I don't agree that it's the central theme… but it is present to a degree. I mean, the metaphor is hard-coded into the magic system. You can argue about intent and interpretation, sure, but I think denying it completely is a little futile.

And... hmm. Going to spoiler this from here on, because it's long and not really on-topic, and also because it contains spoilers.

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Ifni does a good job of summing up things I dislike about how the series handles gender and related issues here…

There is definitely stuff I dislike in there. Some of the characters express views about gender complementarity that I strongly disagree with, the descriptions of differences in channeling by men and women annoy me (so women invariably gain power by surrendering and men by dominating, do they? I see...), gay men are essentially invisible while lesbian relationships generally aren't treated as real romantic bonds, most of the women-dominated organizations seem to have nudity somewhere in their rituals, and as aforementioned there is That Plotline where it's not actually clear if Jordan was engaging in (female-perpetrator male-victim) rape apology or subtly satirizing rape apology.

... to which I'll add the strong tendency for female villains to be enslaved and/or humiliated as comeuppance, whereas male villains are much more likely to be simply killed. (See: Liandrin, Moghedien, Suroth, Galina, Sevanna, Elaida, Graendal, Alviarin…)

(Between this and the recurring male chivalry/protect-women-instinct thing that keeps popping up, I would hazard a guess that Jordan was raised with that protect-women value and never really shook it off. But it seems pretty clear that he knew it was irrational and problematic: the narrative generally punishes the attitude, and reactions from women vary from “that’s an adorably stupid weakness” to “I am literally going to beat you black and blue if you don’t stop treating me like a porcelain doll”, with the average settling somewhere around “that’s sort of cute but mostly irritating”.)

If I had to quickly sum up things I feel are problematic, I'd probably say: a) chivalry, b) gender essentialism, c) fanservice, d) treatment of LGBT stuff, and e) the Thing With Tylin. (In no particular order.)

I can't really speak to this as well as I could have a decade ago, but I feel like the men all had relatively personalized flaws and typically masculine merits, while the women got some unique merits and their flaw was basically having been born deceitful, nagging, irrational, lustful, power-hungry women. Even some of the men whose flaws do conform to a gender stereotype (contrast the women, whose flaws map to a whole set of them) typically have it presented in a considerably more positive manner, which, granted, is part of the trope history of things like stubbornness and womanizing, but still.

I've seen this sort of criticism a lot, and it's always bugged me a little. As you say, our culture has this tendency to judge women more harshly than men for the same faults (or virtues). An outspoken man is assertive, an outspoken woman is domineering.

Looking at the flaws you list...

... er, I should preface this by saying that I don't mean to jump on you in particular; your criticisms are fairly measured, and it doesn't seem fair to start an in-depth debate on a series you haven't read in years. The following is sort of an accumulated response to various criticisms in this thread and elsewhere - your post just provides a handy jumping-off point.

Anyway. Deceitful? Yeah, I guess they are sometimes. I assume you refer to being dishonest in personal interactions, rather than involvement in stuff like the Black Ajah hunt -that’s a spy plot, I wouldn’t count that against them any more than I’d count Rand keeping his political plans secret. Covering up their mistakes to avoid embarrassing themselves, disobeying the establishment’s rules in order to get stuff done (e.g. Egwene doing dreamwalking stuff behind the Wise Ones’ back), and manipulating other people to get what they want. Elayne is trained to be a politician, Nynaeve has experience in the same field on a smaller scale, and Egwene dives right into it. Looking at the male main characters*… Perrin is pretty honest, except for a few boneheaded incidents; the same is more or less true for Rand (he gets more paranoid as the series goes on, but this is clearly a Bad Thing). They are actively uncomfortable with deceit. Mat is chronically dishonest, but I wouldn’t call him manipulative - in fact he stubbornly refuses to alter his behavior to suit other people.

So yeah, I suppose you have a point with this one: the female characters are marginally less likely to engage honestly with other characters. I don’t think there’s a male main-character analogue to the interpersonal power struggle between Nynaeve and Egwene, for instance. But the male characters have this recurring tendency to lie to/try to control female characters in order to protect them, or assume they're going to be irrational.

*I’m sticking mostly to the six main characters - Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne - because they’re most prominent, and also this post is running long enough without looking at a bevy of secondary minor characters too.

Nagging? I suppose. But I feel it’s very easy for unconscious bias to creep in here: when Thom calls Mat a lunkhead he’s totally justified, but when Nynaeve does it she’s a nag. Western culture tends to view outspoken women in a more negative light than outspoken men. I haven’t actually read through the books and counted it up, but I suspect that you’d find both genders make sexist remarks and unflattering criticisms in fairly equal measure.

Irrational? Oh yes. The female characters are irrational, definitely. But can you really tell me with a straight face that the male characters are any better? Rand, with his list of Every Woman Who Died Because of Me (or For Me, or When I Was Sort of Nearby)? But he’s being driven insane by evil magic, so maybe he gets a pass. Perrin, then, with his endless hangups about leadership, relationship issues, and fears about wolfiness? Mat “I am not a bloody lord!” Cauthon? People are irrational sometimes. Often, actually.

Lustful? No more than the men, I think. The male characters take notice when there’s a pretty woman nearby, especially if they’re wearing something revealing. Again, this is another place where the double standard is strong: a man looking at some woman’s chest is normal, whereas a woman noticing a hot guy is being lustful?

Power-hungry? Now, that’s an interesting one. It’s true that, if you look at your six main characters, the men all have power and responsibility thrust upon them against their wishes. Perrin takes something like seven books to adjust to being in charge of the Two Rivers; Mat ends up leading a mercenary band only because of a series of comical it-made-sense-at-the-time incidents, and even afterwards resists any implication that he’s a lord; and Rand of course does not like being the Dragon Reborn. By contrast, Egwene throws herself wholeheartedly into becoming first Aes Sedai and then Amyrlin; Elayne has always expected she’d be a queen someday and is fine with it; and while Nynaeve is initially resistant to the idea of being anything more than a village wise woman, she does come around to the idea of accumulating power (magical and political) that she can use to protect and heal people.

So it’s probably fair to say that the women are more ambitious, at least among the main characters.

But… is that a bad thing? I mean, there’s the old fantasy trope about how the people best suited for leadership are the ones who don’t want it, but. That’s a story trope, not an actual rule to live buy. If you try that in the real world, you will often find that the guy protesting he’s no leader actually isn’t one. Sure, his refusal might indicate a sort of inner nobility or humility, you can be pretty sure he doesn’t dream of becoming a power-mad tyrant… but there’s no guarantee that he has the skills or temperament for leadership, and nothing stops him from going all despotic after he gets a taste of power.

Rand, Mat and Perrin are all following the classic story pattern where, despite being common-born, they are innately noble. Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve all want to change the world, and seek out the means to do so. I don't think either of these is better than the other, necessarily. The fact that they're segregated by gender is a bit troublesome, but I'm not sure this is intended as a statement, it doesn't seem to hold up that well outside the main six...


Moving on to more general points: this is a world where most cultures are steeped in some form of sexism. Not, as a rule, the standard-issue patriarchy that seems to be the default in medieval fantasy; there are hints of that in places (the Whitecloaks, most non-Seanchan militaries), but the overwhelming women-are-chattel attitude seen in, say, ASoIaF is just not there. There are a couple of strong matriarchies, where women hold power and men are second-class; Far Madding is a classic patriarchy with the genders flipped, while the White Tower has close parallels to male-dominated religious orders in real-world history. But usually, it’s more of a battle-of-the-sexes thing. There’s a recurring pattern where men and women have separate, gender-exclusive institutions - the Village Council vs Women’s Circle in the Two Rivers, the Aiel chiefs and Wise Ones… Neither gender has a clear upper hand, but they are at odds. There’s sexism running in both directions. And the main characters are not immune to it. (This in itself is noteworthy, I think: many fantasy stories like to portray their main characters as more enlightened than their society. Sure, most people think women should just be housewives, but [male protagonist] doesn’t see why and [female protagonist] wants to go off and have adventures.)

It’s not pretty. These are serious character flaws. But I do think they’re meant to be seen as flaws. The narrative does not reward characters for playing gender-based dominance games - it verges on fairy-tale morality at times, where lying/playing power games/trying to rob other main characters of agency is punished until the person doing it makes amends. Moiraine tries to manipulate Rand into doing what she’s already decided (without his input) he ought to do; it doesn’t work. Perrin tries to drive Faile away because he plans on doing something dangerous and doesn’t want her following; it doesn’t work. Elayne tries to ‘tame’ Mat and teach him manners; it doesn’t work. It’s a recurring theme. I don’t think I can recall any incident where this kind of behavior works as intended; at best the one being manipulated goes off in an unexpected direction and accomplishes something else, and at worst there’s a lot of bitterness and tension for no good reason.

On the other hand, when the main characters actually communicate and treat one another with some degree of respect? Stuff gets done. Sometimes it’s big stuff, like the finale of book 9. Sometimes it’s little, like the moment in book 6 where Mat sees Egwene-as-Amyrlin being ignored by the Aes Sedai she’s trying to lead, and steps in with a well-timed show of respect to turn their attention back to her. It is, again, a fairly consistent pattern.


There are places where the book seems to be advocating a sort of gender essentialism that I find uncomfortable - see Mato’s post for a fair summary of that argument. But in other places I feel like the underlying sentiment is “this whole battle of the sexes thing is stupid, just treat one another like people.”

And sometimes, of course, it’s ambiguous. Moiraine is much more effective after she swears to obey Rand instead of treating him like a puppet. On the one hand, oath of obedience; that’s not exactly subtext, is it? On the other hand, this also marks the point where Moiraine starts treating Rand as a person rather than a puppet, somebody to advise and teach rather than badger or manipulate into doing what she thinks is best.

I could pull out other examples, but this has already run pretty long. Basically: Wheel of Time sets out to talk about gender issues. Sometimes it slips up, sometimes I just don’t agree with what it’s saying (not always easy to tell the difference), but sometimes it gets stuff right, and I find the subject interesting. So it irks me a little when people dismiss the whole thing with “Jordan can’t write female characters”.

Anyway. On-topic, will be following along, it's always fun to vicariously read a favorite book for the first time again.

[Saph]

I do find it kind of amusing that everyone has a different opinion on what the theme or message of the series is. It's kind of a compliment to the author if you think about it.

I suspect a lot of it comes down to the fact that once you get down to it, most of the WoT characters are very difficult to put in a box. Nynaeve (who was being discussed earlier) is a good example – for better or worse, I really can't think of any other character just like her in any other book. Most of the characters have some hard-to-categorise combination of good and bad traits – fans of a character will see their good sides while minimising their bad, while the ones who dislike the character will do the opposite. It provokes strong love-or-hate reactions, which is probably one of the reasons the series was so crazy successful.

[Mato]

Is there even a single submissive female in the entire series?

Yes.
But your also confusing guidance vs leadership with BDSM style submission and dominance.

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Nagging? I suppose. But I feel it’s very easy for unconscious bias to creep in here: when Thom calls Mat a lunkhead he’s totally justified, but when Nynaeve does it she’s a nag. Western culture tends to view outspoken women in a more negative light than outspoken men. I haven’t actually read through the books and counted it up, but I suspect that you’d find both genders make sexist remarks and unflattering criticisms in fairly equal measure.

All the females are guilty of stealing stuff, but can you remember when Mat did?

He was pretty deceptive and kind of a bad guy to start with. But after stealing a dagger he was put through mental and physical hell and then him and his friends had to deal with Fain so he literately had to watch his mistake torment his friends and family almost across the entire series.

Males as you so aptly reminded everyone else of are killed for doing bad but women are just punished for forgetting their place. So was Nynaeve harshly judged for calling someone a name and labeled a bag? How about was Thom harshly judged for wanting to care for his gentled nephew and frakin ordered to be executed? Of course they take shots at each other, but the world is designed to be a terrible terrible place if your born with external genitalia because of those who don't as an eclipsing rational just so those pot shots feel justified or ignorable.

For example

But the male characters have this recurring tendency to lie to/try to control female characters in order to protect them, or assume they're going to be irrational.

I guess you forgot about that time Rand was forced to kill Min.

So it’s probably fair to say that the women are more ambitious, at least among the main characters.

And all three of them were already destined to lead. Elayne is a queen, Nynaeve was already on the women's council and Egwene was expected to join it soon too. In this female-ruled world, women do have more ambition whereas males cannot truly expect much. A simple job, raise a family, and be the most honorable man a man could be and that's all they can get so that's all they dream for.

And what does the series tell us? That's totally wrong.

Now the series does take a more positive turn of events. It's not just men by default should lead, but men should lead with women along side them. But that's a point for another day.

[LokeyITP]

Lost the OP I think. It's ok, it would have been 3 years of chapter per day anyway.

[An Enemy Spy]

Still here. Combination of work and a day trip to Seattle kept me away. It's only been two days without an update. A bit soon to give up on me.

[Ibrinar]

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And all three of them were already destined to lead. Elayne is a queen, Nynaeve was already on the women's council and Egwene was expected to join it soon too. In this female-ruled world, women do have more ambition whereas males cannot truly expect much. A simple job, raise a family, and be the most honorable man a man could be and that's all they can get so that's all they dream for.

And what does the series tell us? That's totally wrong.

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Female ruled world?

Nyvaeve was on the woman's council but there was a Village Council too full of men we saw several of them at the beginning of book 1.
The high Lords and Ladies of Tear can be either man or woman and according to this list http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/High_Nobility_of_Tear there are more Men.
Malkier before being destroyed had a King and now there is Lan though he didn't make use of his power
For the Aiel only man can become Clan Chiefs, only Woman Wise Woman. (And only Woman can hold property or something.)
Seanchan - They currently have an Empress but afaik they have no limitation that their leader can only be a woman.
The Lord Captain of the Children of Light is a guy.

Andor has always a queen and there are of course the Aes Sedai who would like to control everything. But all in all the World doesn't seem particularly Female ruled to me.

Edit: Oh forgot about the Mistress of Ships who holds more Power than the Master of the Blades. I would still call the leadership of the world pretty mixed.

[Traab]

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Female ruled world?

Nyvaeve was on the woman's council but there was a Village Council too full of men we saw several of them at the beginning of book 1.
The high Lords and Ladies of Tear can be either man or woman and according to this list http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/High_Nobility_of_Tear there are more Men.
Malkier before being destroyed had a King and now there is Lan though he didn't make use of his power
For the Aiel only man can become Clan Chiefs, only Woman Wise Woman. (And only Woman can hold property or something.)
Seanchan - They currently have an Empress but afaik they have no limitation that their leader can only be a woman.
The Lord Captain of the Children of Light is a guy.

Andor has always a queen and there are of course the Aes Sedai who would like to control everything. But all in all the World doesn't seem particularly Female ruled to me.

Edit: Oh forgot about the Mistress of Ships who holds more Power than the Master of the Blades. I would still call the leadership of the world pretty mixed.

Too be fair,

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I get the feeling that a lot of those womens council/wise woman type setups were implied to wield more of a subtle control over things. The Chief is the Chief, but a wise Chief listens to his women's council sort of thing. Its less official and more understood. So even in scenarios where things are equal or slanted in favor of men, there are often women behind the scenes with a lot more authority than is generally talked about openly. Even if its closer to, "Do it this way or you sleep on the couch!" type of "power" It may have been awhile, but I do recall that was pretty much out and out stated when talking to the various groups of women. A sort of, "Oh yes, the menfolk think they are the ones in charge, but we know better, dont we ladies?"

[Mato]

[SPOILER]
Female ruled world?

Yes.

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Female village council > mayor, Nyvaeve brings it up as such.
In Altara women could unquestioningly kill a man.
Andor is ruled by queens, kings are a fill in.
Arad Doman is ruled by a king, but the fine text is he has to be voted in by the merchants, which are all female.
Elayne also now rules Cairhien.
Ghealdan is ruled by queen Alliandre.
Kandor is ruled by queen Athenielle.
Saldaea is ruled by queen Zarine.
Seanchan are female only.
Aiel has a male chief put in power by the female owner and forced to obey the wise women.
Amadicia was ruled by a king but taken over by the children of light.
Illian was ruled by a king, until the White Tower kidnapped him.
Malkier is ruled by a king, but was a dead nation thanks to queen Breyan's plot to take over.
That leaves Arafel, Murandy, Shienar, Tarabon, & Tear which allow either but excludes the White Tower's influence over them.

That's five nations that allow both with some cravats, nine that are female-only or females have last say, and of the three male only two of them were removed from power at some point by women. So yes, it was a female-ruled world.

[Ibrinar]

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It doesn't matter who the current Rulers are it only matters whether the system of government only allows female Rulers (because that is what is necessary to support your statement "In this female-ruled world, women do have more ambition whereas males cannot truly expect much. A simple job, raise a family, and be the most honorable man a man could be and that's all they can get so that's all they dream for.")

Listing that countries currently have a queen doesn't demonstrate they are female only. Though I give you that the world is biased to woman at the upper government level. (Not about the Village Council vs Women's Circle thing though she may say many things but this http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Village_Council seems to match my (admittedly vague) memories well and I can't remember any indication that she could just overrule them.)

But be that as I may I think all the late book spoilers clutter up the thread so I shouldn't participate myself.

[Lethologica]

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Is it really the case that a legal decree of female rulership is the only way to lead to a society where women rule? I think there are ways to achieve de facto what may not be the case de jure. That said, I haven't read WoT past a few chapters of EotW (which had the "men's council that exists mostly to grump about the women's council that actually handles things" system of government in Two Rivers), so don't know anything about the settings being discussed.

[Ibrinar]

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Is it really the case that a legal decree of female rulership is the only way to lead to a society where women rule? I think there are ways to achieve de facto what may not be the case de jure. That said, I haven't read WoT past a few chapters of EotW (which had the "men's council that exists mostly to grump about the women's council that actually handles things" system of government in Two Rivers), so don't know anything about the settings being discussed.

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De facto control is fine too and could be demonstrated by them only having woman rulers for a long time or by strong traditions that would predictably lead to such a result. But obviously just currently having a Queen wouldn't demonstrate that either.

[Mato]

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De facto control is fine too and could be demonstrated by them only having woman rulers for a long time or by strong traditions that would predictably lead to such a result. But obviously just currently having a Queen wouldn't demonstrate that either.

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Which also traces back to the corruption.

A man born with the power to channel cannot be trusted. Is there an easy way to shame an entire gender than "prove" they will fall to evil than having objects mysteriously move around them? Nope, none at all. Coincidentally, there is an entire Ajah that'd do exactly that. And it so happens they were not only the largest but they also had the highest percentage of black ajah members that had no other purpose than to push the world out of balance for their dark lord. Which is pretty much red's entire reason for existing.

From there and in order of population it's lust (green), diplomacy (gray), knowledge (brown), caring for others (yellow), righteousness (blue), and logic (white). You know, in case you missed what Jorden's views on female priorities were.

[HamHam]

That's five nations that allow both with some cravats

This is a hilarious typo.

[Seerow]

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Is it really the case that a legal decree of female rulership is the only way to lead to a society where women rule? I think there are ways to achieve de facto what may not be the case de jure. That said, I haven't read WoT past a few chapters of EotW (which had the "men's council that exists mostly to grump about the women's council that actually handles things" system of government in Two Rivers), so don't know anything about the settings being discussed.

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As I recall, that was the way women described the Village Council vs Women's Circle; while men described it as the exact opposite. Big case of biased viewpoints there. I suspect the actual truth of things is closer to somewhere in the middle

[Zrak]

I've seen this sort of criticism a lot, and it's always bugged me a little. As you say, our culture has this tendency to judge women more harshly than men for the same faults (or virtues). An outspoken man is assertive, an outspoken woman is domineering.

To keep my response brief, my problem is that I think Jordan's characterization participates in and reinforces that double standard, however unintentionally it may be. In other words, I think the text actively presents outspoken women more negatively than outspoken men, not just that the audience happens to react more negatively to Jordan's outspoken women than his outspoken men because of their own biases or even simply because the males characters are more central and thus get more opportunity to be sympathetic or otherwise relatable. In other other words, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between Jordan's characterization of women and the reaction to it and, say, the characterization of Skylar White in Breaking Bad and the reaction to it.

[Reddish Mage]

How unintentional can it be, when, through the 10 book I managed to read before I stopped, there did seem to be a pretty universal way in which all women were portrayed?

Given that Jordan's take on women tends to be different then other authors, it does stick out.

[Olinser]

How unintentional can it be, when, through the 10 book I managed to read before I stopped, there did seem to be a pretty universal way in which all women were portrayed?

Given that Jordan's take on women tends to be different then other authors, it does stick out.

From what I've heard, every person that actually met Jordan's wife in person had the following response about his female characters:

Spoiler: undefined

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http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja &uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCOmO24DDlMcCFQLYpgodJlUEA g&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fgallery%2FgrHOwIv&e i=1lvDVenLIoKwmwWmqpEQ&bvm=bv.99556055,d.dGY&psig= AFQjCNHBQq9fkz_eBHhE2B-Io0dDdzAwGQ&ust=1438952775096652

[Psyren]

I agree, looking back on the gender portrayals in the books with a more critical eye I'm noticing problems that weren't as readily apparent to my younger self.

From what I've heard, every person that actually met Jordan's wife in person had the following response about his female characters:

Spoiler: undefined

Show

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja &uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCOmO24DDlMcCFQLYpgodJlUEA g&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fgallery%2FgrHOwIv&e i=1lvDVenLIoKwmwWmqpEQ&bvm=bv.99556055,d.dGY&psig= AFQjCNHBQq9fkz_eBHhE2B-Io0dDdzAwGQ&ust=1438952775096652

Link fixed

Regardless of what his wife was like though, ultimately the pen was in his hand.

[An Enemy Spy]

Sorry for the long delay, boys and girls. The last week has been a busy one and I've just been too exhausted to want to do a chapter. It looks like you've managed to carry a lively conversation without me, so I guess things aren't so bad as all that.

Chapter 8: A Place of Safety
Moiraine comes to Tam's room to look him over. She and Lan are not pleased to the gleeman there and Lan notes that Thom was nowhere to be when the trollocs attacked. What is their problem with Lan? Do they just not gleemen in general, or they not like Thom personally?

Moiraine sends everybody but Rand and Lan out and begins to work her magic on Tam. Lan sees the heron sword Rand is wearing and comments on it. Apparently using a heron sword marks you out as a master swordsmen. I'm guessing Tam belonged to some elite unit once whose symbol was a heron. My theory that I mentioned before is that Tam is a retired Warder. It would explain the mumbling about the wars he's been in, his special sword, and his familiarity with trollocs.

I was right in thinking that raven was a spy for the Dark One. Moiraine says that had she known there were going to be trollocs and a Myddraal coming she would have brought a group of Aes Sedai with her. That means she and the nasty things showed up independently of each other wtih no knowledge of each other. Coincidence? I think not. Moiraine is interested in Rand, Mat and Perrin, and by the pattern of houses the trollocs attacked, they clearly were too. There's something special about our Three Musketeers, or at least there's something special about one of them, and the other two are so close in age that neither side knows which one is important. Considering Rand is the main character of this book, and that he was born on the slopes of a mountain which I'm just going to go ahead and assume is the same one Lews Therin created, I'm guessing he's the special one.

Anyway, Moiraine finishes healing Tam and in a few weeks he'll be good as new. And now we come to the wham moment of this chapter. Rand will be leaving with Moiraine and Lan, and so will the other two Musketeers. They will journey to Tar Valon, a city full of Aes Sedai and Warders, and the map informs me it is in the lake at the foot of the Dragonmount. It looks like the quest is finally about to begin.

[Psyren]

Some good guesses there!

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 9: Tellings of the Wheel
I smell backstory approaching.

Rand is in a dream, running from trollocs through a scorched landscape under a giant red sun. He falls off a cliff and into a canyon filled with steam. Suddenly a black mountain juts upward out of the ground. He's never seen this mountain before, but he feels he remembers it. Oh dear, it looks like Shai'tan himself is in this dream. Serve me, he says, but Rand refuses him. He throws himself away and lands in a field somewhere else entirely. There's another mountain here by a broad river with a city on an island. He runs for the city with Shai'tan chasing behind and makes it inside the gates. All the people are smiling at him, and beckoning him toward a white tower. As he walks toward the tower they all sing and celebrate. Rand enters the tower and suddenly the doors slam shut behind him and the Myrddraal is there, telling him they've been waiting for him.

Okay, looking at the map, I have some idea of what's happening here. The black mountain has to be Shayol Ghul, where the Dark One has been imprisoned for all time. The town is Tar Valon under the Dragonmount. This was not a dream, but a vision, probably sent by Shai'ten himself. If the god of all evil has taken an interest in you, you know you're in for a bad time. Interesting that the Dark One seems to see Rand as a potential servant rather than an enemy though. Maybe his plan is for Rand to be the one to release him from Shayol Ghul. Wouldn't that be a twist?

Rand wakes up and is understandably freaked out. Like all main characters who have important visions, though, he chalks it up to being a bad dream.

Tam is awake at last and Rand tells him everything that happened, except for the things he said in his fever. Rand's still in denial about the whole "Tam's not not my dad" thing. Tam has no problem with Rand leaving Emond's Field, and is actually in support of it. He does warn him that Aes Sedai do things for reasons of their own, and those aren't always the reason you think they are. We also learn that Lan and Moiraine have a sort of supernatural bond. Tam certainly seems to know a good deal about Warders and Aes Sedai, perhaps because he was a Warder?

Outside, a mob has gathered to try and throw Moiraine and Lan out of town, but most of the throng is doing it halfheartedly, and when someone starts making threats, most of the mob shuffles away from him. The Mayor yells at them for a bit and then Moiraine herself comes out. She insults them and then regales them with a tale of how much better the people in the Two Rivers used to be.

They were once a powerful kingdom called Manetheren was here, and when the Dark One's army of trollocs came, they bravely waged war and refused to surrender against much greater forces until the kingdom finally fell and their queen destroyed the trolloc army with a powerful spell that killed herself and destroyed the city and all the attacking trollocs and their leaders, the Dreadlords. The crowd apologizes and shuffles off awkwardly.

Now the quest is about to begin. Next chapter.

[Psyren]

You're right about the mountain (its physical description and purpose anyway) - I figure that's a safe enough thing to confirm since it's so obvious.

He does warn him that Aes Sedai do things for reasons of their own, and those aren't always the reason you think they are.

You're going to hear that line again. A lot.

[Douglas]

Some good guesses there!

Some of them are even right.

They will journey to Tar Valon, a city full of Aes Sedai and Warders, and the map informs me it is in the lake at the foot of the Dragonmount.

That's not quite right. Tar Valon is on an island in the river that passes by Dragonmount. If you recall from the prologue, when Lews Therin killed himself, the mountain he created caused a nearby river to shift and split around a new island nearby. Tar Valon is on that island.

[Reddish Mage]

From what I've heard, every person that actually met Jordan's wife in person had the following response about his female characters:

You know his widow, Harriet McDougal, edited the books, continued to shepard the books after her husband's death, attends the conventions, promotes the material, and is being sued by the would-be makers of the Wheel of Time Tv

Spoiler: They already aired the pilot episode

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Apparently that's the crux of the suit, whether Universal Pictures or Red Eagle owns the TV & Movie rights

All of this, of course, is completely consistent with Harriet being Robert Jordan's...muse.

[Traab]

You're going to hear that line again. A lot.

Rofl, oooooh yeah! Half the time I was wondering if even THEY know what their real plan is. They all have their own.

[LokeyITP]

It's difficult to look at the people behind the works because they're people. They've all done things they'd rather not have, grown or gotten weird over the years, etc... Look at Gaiman, Moore and Miller, they go from loony to insane :)

That said, the troubling completion of the series can be laid at Harriet McDougal's feet. From writer choice to work flow, it's all pretty baffling (even beyond dressing things up for the fans).

The media rights circus is that, at least it wasn't after the LotR movies. It's definitely troubling that they'd sign such a stupid deal, and there's really no excuse for it (well other than they needed fast cash for RJ's first illness or something). Also at least it prevents an probably unfilmable story from being adapted into something awful.