An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time! *golf clap*

[snowblizz]

It's difficult to look at the people behind the works because they're people. They've all done things they'd rather not have, grown or gotten weird over the years, etc... Look at Gaiman, Moore and Miller, they go from loony to insane :)

That said, the troubling completion of the series can be laid at Harriet McDougal's feet. From writer choice to work flow, it's all pretty baffling (even beyond dressing things up for the fans).

The media rights circus is that, at least it wasn't after the LotR movies. It's definitely troubling that they'd sign such a stupid deal, and there's really no excuse for it (well other than they needed fast cash for RJ's first illness or something). Also at least it prevents an probably unfilmable story from being adapted into something awful.

I skimmed over the link and some more stuff and if the Red Eagle people are those &%@£$# clowns that screwed me over with the WOT comic then good riddence to them. I don't give a blarg about their rights, they should be glad to not get strung up in the closest tree.

*mutter**grumble*

Edit:
Really enjoying following the chapters though. And am so sooo trying not to comment on the commentary so as not to spoil.

[Psyren]

I thought Sanderson was a great choice to wrap things up. I may eat those words as I haven't finished AMoL yet, but TGS and ToM were pretty well-done imo and he trimmed a lot of the fat that Jordan had been building up in the previous three.

[Malak'ai]

I thought Sanderson was a great choice to wrap things up. I may eat those words as I haven't finished AMoL yet, but TGS and ToM were pretty well-done imo and he trimmed a lot of the fat that Jordan had been building up in the previous three.

Spoiler: Sanderson finishing WoT

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He did an okay job imo, and yes, he cut the fat; but I personally felt he went too far with the trimming at times.
As tedious a RJs descriptions of womens clothing, or the annoying genders views were, in the grand scheem of the story, they were a slap to the face with a velvet glove compared to BS's punch to the gut with a maied fist approach.

Ad once again, this is purely imo; BS damaged some characters eg. Mat, Avendha(?) and Thom; while saving some eg. Galad and Egwene (at least in tGS).

[LokeyITP]

He was a great choice compared to the field: Tor fantasy writers who could take time to write the thing and didn't have the clout to demand too much of the $. Even then there's a handful of arguably better choices (especially since the magic system was set in stone).

If you're ok with the first two, the last book shouldn't be too much of a letdown. I've never been too excited by the WoT plot, but to me ToM is almost as bad as CoT, some stuff happens but it's mostly pointless in the face of the larger end of the world problems. Main characters and sometimes new characters steal the thunder of 3rd string characters that have been doing things we've checked in on for books and books too. Too many of the character arcs have happened before, often to the same characters, that's not something I can forgive.

RJ's descriptions can get flowery, sure. The problem with trimming them wholesale was not introducing things subtly, there's tons of world and character stuff buried in those descriptions (later buried too deep since they got insane).

Note where I'm coming from: the main plot is meh. Especially considering the 10k page count, I can think of two writers that have mostly done the same story in 1/10 that (that I know of and that published before EotW). I was on board mostly for the writing style and a bit for the world building.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Sanderson finishing WoT

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He did an okay job imo, and yes, he cut the fat; but I personally felt he went too far with the trimming at times.
As tedious a RJs descriptions of womens clothing, or the annoying genders views were, in the grand scheem of the story, they were a slap to the face with a velvet glove compared to BS's punch to the gut with a maied fist approach.

Ad once again, this is purely imo; BS damaged some characters eg. Mat, Avendha(?) and Thom; while saving some eg. Galad and Egwene (at least in tGS).

I opened that spoiler with much trepidation but thank you for leaving out AMoL details

While we're on the subject, a funny aside:

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[dps]

Spoiler: Sanderson finishing WoT

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He did an okay job imo, and yes, he cut the fat; but I personally felt he went too far with the trimming at times.
As tedious a RJs descriptions of womens clothing, or the annoying genders views were, in the grand scheem of the story, they were a slap to the face with a velvet glove compared to BS's punch to the gut with a maied fist approach.

Ad once again, this is purely imo; BS damaged some characters eg. Mat, Avendha(?) and Thom; while saving some eg. Galad and Egwene (at least in tGS).

Yes, I agree that

Spoiler

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the trimming went too far at times. In particular, I think some of the secondary plots and character arcs got wrapped up too abruptly.

Not sure that I agree with the final paragraph of the post, though.

[Seerow]

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For all the talk of Trimming... Jordan intended all 3 of those last books to be a single volume. I can't blame Sanderson, who got tapped to write one book, deciding no, he's not going to add gratuitous amounts of details and end up with 6 books. I'm happy we got 3.

[Zrak]

It's difficult to look at the people behind the works because they're people. They've all done things they'd rather not have, grown or gotten weird over the years, etc... Look at Gaiman, Moore and Miller, they go from loony to insane :)

I don't know. I don't really think Neil Gaiman has ever really been that weird or crazy. Moore certainly never got weird; he was pretty much born with a wizard beard and crazy eyes, as far as I can tell. I think it's hard to say whether Miller himself changed or he simply came to be in a position where nobody really reined him in anymore, though it's probably some of both. In any case, it's easy enough to look at the works themselves and judge those on their own terms, independent of their authors.

[Anteros]

I thought Sanderson was a great choice to wrap things up. I may eat those words as I haven't finished AMoL yet, but TGS and ToM were pretty well-done imo and he trimmed a lot of the fat that Jordan had been building up in the previous three.

I will say that I found AMoL to be far and away the worst of Sanderson's books. It's not even close. It reads like a bad fanfiction and I can't believe it made it past editing. You may be better off skipping it and imagining your own ending.

[Seerow]

I will say that I found AMoL to be far and away the worst of Sanderson's books. It's not even close. It reads like a bad fanfiction and I can't believe it made it past editing. You may be better off skipping it and imagining your own ending.

I strongly disagree. There were a few parts that could have been glossed over (mostly the bit involving Sanderson's personal addition to the cast over the last couple books), but the vast majority of it was quite good. I felt AMOL was a stronger book than TGS.

[Psyren]

I will say that I found AMoL to be far and away the worst of Sanderson's books. It's not even close. It reads like a bad fanfiction and I can't believe it made it past editing. You may be better off skipping it and imagining your own ending.

I strongly disagree. There were a few parts that could have been glossed over (mostly the bit involving Sanderson's personal addition to the cast over the last couple books), but the vast majority of it was quite good. I felt AMOL was a stronger book than TGS.

Well, with these conflicting accounts it seems my best bet is to indeed read it for myself.

[Traab]

Well, with these conflicting accounts it seems my best bet is to indeed read it for myself.

Its entirely likely its one of those personal tastes issues. For example, I cant stand terry brooks, yet I hear there are a couple of people out there who enjoy reading his stuff. /shrug

[Douglas]

My impression of A Memory of Light was that the first part felt like just rapidly checking off a bunch of plot points on a list, but then that list got finished and the remainder of the book was a great deal better.

[Anteros]

I strongly disagree. There were a few parts that could have been glossed over (mostly the bit involving Sanderson's personal addition to the cast over the last couple books), but the vast majority of it was quite good. I felt AMOL was a stronger book than TGS.

Spoiler: MAJOR AMoL spoilers.

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It's not so much the writing that bothers me as the willful changes to characters, cast, and setting at the last minute. Although the writing still isn't stellar.

You can't just disregard Sanderson's self insert because it's half the damn book. During the middle of the finale of a 14 book series we're suddenly introduced to a random mary sue character who manages to solve basically every major problem while the main cast does almost nothing. Perrin and Egwene get a tiny bit of screen time but Rand and Mat are almost completely ignored in favor of Androl who

Has traveled the world like Jaim Farstrider
Apparently led some random rebellion in the past against a tyrant lord.
Knows how to shoot a two rivers longbow well enough to impress the owner.
Invented his own form of leatherworking.
Is apparently an expert cliff diver.
And is a special snowflake with the unexplained power to make gateways where no one else can.

ETC.

That's just his back story and not even getting into the way he overshadows the main cast in the actual books. Instead of the actual characters of the story for the last 13 books solving problems we have Androl

Discovering a new form of bonding.
Solving the crisis at the black tower.
Saving the armies of the light at Caemlyn.
Rescuing the seals on the dark one's prison.
Saving the dragon canons.
Is apparently so super awesome that even Red Ajah Aes Sedai who he bonded against their will fall in love with him.

I would be fine with using a new character for one plot point or so...but not 3 out of every 4 plot lines in the book.

Androl aside, I also find the prose in AMoL to be much rougher. Sanderson struggles to write dialogue for the male WoT characters for some reason and it often comes off as wooden or unnatural. He does a good job with the females but Rand and Mat in particular are very poorly written. Which may be why he decided to leave them off screen the entire book. I don't know.

Sanderson also decided to completely change the magic system we'd had for the last 13 books for no reason. All of that nonsense about sideways gateways or each weave having an opposite is completely fabricated by him at the last minute. The gateways thing was actually an idea he took from another book he was working on at the time.

He also changed the number of soldiers arbitrarily to create drama. The armies of the good guys went from about 2 million in the earlier books to a few hundred thousand in the finale. I understand that it's hard to create tension when the good guys outnumber the bad guys, but you can't just change the numbers at the last second as a solution.

Oh, also the whole Demandred thing was silly. He doesn't realize Rand is at Shayol Ghul for the entire last battle and spends the whole time looking for him. You'd think that after a few days he'd at least check. He also arbitrarily gets into 3 straight duels with people who can't even channel and make no sense. There is literally no other reason for the duels to happen other than Sanderson wanted to show that Lan>Galad>Gawyn in swordplay to shut up the fans. That's not a good reason for a major plot point in a book.

All together I was a big Sanderson fan before AMoL, and I read all of his earlier works. I won't be picking up any of his stuff in the future.

[Mato]

Weave inversion makes sense through and was expected, through it's exact manifestion was not and it's name is even worse.

Spoiler

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It's named the "flame of tar valon". Does that ring a bell?

The Flame of Tar Valon is the official symbol of the White Tower and the Amyrlin Seat. The opposite of that is the Dragon's Fang, the Black Tower, the M'Hael, and apparently Balefire according to Egwene.

So in Egwene's last moments she was like "Balefire and men are the same thing and we're going to fix you".

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Then the "flame of tar valon" fixed her on a scale much larger than any member of the Sharan army. Remember the closer to the dark one you were the greater effect it was supposed to have on you. It's a very subtle reminder of how she continually opposed the wheel's design even up to her death.

[lord_khaine]

I thought Sanderson was a great choice to wrap things up. I may eat those words as I haven't finished AMoL yet, but TGS and ToM were pretty well-done imo and he trimmed a lot of the fat that Jordan had been building up in the previous three.

I second this motion, i though the last 3 books were a huge improvement over the previous 3-4 that had been written in the series, imo salvaging something that had been spinning rappidly out of control, and making certain characters that had before been more or less ignored by me likeable.

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Im thinking about Perrin and his awful relationship here

reading AMoL that was what made me start tracking down everything else Brandon Sanderson had written.

[Anteros]

Weave inversion makes sense through and was expected, through it's exact manifestion was not and it's name is even worse.

Spoiler

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It's named the "flame of tar valon". Does that ring a bell?

The Flame of Tar Valon is the official symbol of the White Tower and the Amyrlin Seat. The opposite of that is the Dragon's Fang, the Black Tower, the M'Hael, and apparently Balefire according to Egwene.

So in Egwene's last moments she was like "Balefire and men are the same thing and we're going to fix you".

Spoiler

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Then the "flame of tar valon" fixed her on a scale much larger than any member of the Sharan army. Remember the closer to the dark one you were the greater effect it was supposed to have on you. It's a very subtle reminder of how she continually opposed the wheel's design even up to her death.

Spoiler

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I don't see how it made sense or was expected. There was no foreshadowing of it whatsoever until right before it happened in the exact same book. The fact that Sanderson named it after a random thing in the books does not constitute foreshadowing in my opinion.

I also don't agree with your interpretation on the Egwene scene. I honestly think it's just Sanderson reversing the way Lews Therin raised Dragonmount when he drew too much power and killed himself in the prologue. I don't really think there was any deeper meaning regarding her character there. After all, despite being a horrible friend and person, Egwene was one of the Pattern's main tools throughout the books.

[Mato]

I don't see how it made sense or was expected.

I think that's more of your thinking process than anything else.

Within the first few books multiple, matching, undoing, and inverting weaves comes up. The entire design of everything is two halves working with and against each other. I was expecting a wheel-based version of Balefire the moment it was used. Then youknowwho reminded youknowwho that it's just a weave based on the one power and not some super special shiny unique thing which was just a neon flashing sign for everyone that already seen it coming.

I also don't agree with your interpretation on the Egwene scene.

It's fine if you disagree, but she isn't one of the patterns main tools and the weave's outcome tells you another story.

Honestly, her entire role in the story is to weaken the White Tower and teach women not to be stubborn.

[Seerow]

Holy crap dude, spoilers?

[An Enemy Spy]

Sorry for the delay. Computer's been on the fritz. I saw Fantastic Four today! Don't see it. It's awful. You know that older Fantastic Four movie that isn't very good? Well that one is still better than this one.

Chapter 10: Leavetaking
The journey finally begins!

Our merry band sets forth from Emond's field, with a couple of new additions. Egwene has decided to come along, and despite Lan's protests, Moiraine agrees to let her come. Thom Merrilin is also coming because Emond's field is a dump, and why travel alone when you can travel with a sorceress and a master swordsman when there are monsters about. He also wants to perform in Tar Valon, where the tips are undoubtedly much better.

Our other two musketeers have weapons of their own. Mat has his hunting bow and Perrin has an axe that was made for a merchant's guard but was never bought. A swordsman, an archer and a guy with an axe; our heroes are already falling neatly into their fantasy archetypes. I'm guessing Rand will be the paladin, Mat will be the rogue, and Perrin will be the fighter. Not bad, but you still need a cleric. Thom is the bard and Lan and Moiraine are the overpowered DMPC's that do all the cool stuff while the players get bored and angry.

Egwene doesn't seem to realize that there were trollocs attacking the night before. Um, weren't you just helping tend to the wounded? How did you miss a detail like that? She must not have put too many ranks into Spot. And it looks like Bela is ok! Rand is not riding her though, he's letting Egwene ride Bela while he rides a horse named Cloud. Cloud is fast, but he's a hard ride too. There's a reason nobody else picked him.

Our heroes finally leave the village and start on their way, and already things are going south. Rand spots a giant bat creature flying above them, and Lan tells him it is a Draghkar. The Myrddraal is using it to spy on them.

[Douglas]

I'm guessing Rand will be the paladin, Mat will be the rogue, and Perrin will be the fighter. Not bad, but you still need a cleric.

Some of those might be... stretching the class definition a bit.

Lan and Moiraine are the overpowered DMPC's that do all the cool stuff while the players get bored and angry.

Eh, it's the start of the story, someone needs to keep the fragile level 1 PCs alive long enough for them to level up.

Egwene doesn't seem to realize that there were trollocs attacking the night before. Um, weren't you just helping tend to the wounded? How did you miss a detail like that? She must not have put too many ranks into Spot.

She knows that, she's just incredulous about the idea that they were after the Three Musketeers specifically.

[Kitten Champion]

A swordsman, an archer and a guy with an axe; our heroes are already falling neatly into their fantasy archetypes. I'm guessing Rand will be the paladin, Mat will be the rogue, and Perrin will be the fighter. Not bad, but you still need a cleric. Thom is the bard and Lan and Moiraine are the overpowered DMPC's that do all the cool stuff while the players get bored and angry.

Not a bad early assessment at all really. Although traditional cleric clerics aren't really a thing in WoT, rather the already demonstrated Aes Sedai healing more or less fills that spot as needed.

So Moiraine's even more overpowered than a straight wizard/sorcerer, is what I'm getting at.

[An Enemy Spy]

By calling them the Three Musketeers, have I accidentally stumbled into an actual fan nickname, or are you guys just using that term because I did?

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 11: The Road to Taren Ferry
The horses are running at full speed, a very dangerous thing to do in the dark, but when you've evil things on your tail, it's understandable if caution takes a back seat to alacrity. Cloud is very fast. It's all Rand can do to rein him in and keep him from leaving the others in the dust. Rand may be the rider, but Cloud is the one in control here. I hope he keeps this horse. I can see all kinds of comedic situations that could come from this relationship.

They make it to Watch Hill and our heroes want to stop there, but Lan is insistent that they keep going. Moiraine uses her magic to revitalize the horses. I think I understand how magic works in this series. The power doesn't come from within you, but rather from a massive source that you can tap into. Using magic puts a physical strain on your body, and if you use to much of it, you will die, which means that it's dangerous to cast the really powerful spells.

The drakghar comes again and they ride off. A fog is forming around them, and it becomes apparent that Moiraine is doing it to hide their location. She must have it spread over a large area, or else tracking them would be a simple matter of following the moving cloud.

They make it to Taren's Ferry. According to the well traveled Rand, the people here are stuck up and look down on Emond's Field folk. They find the ferryman and pay him a large sum to take them across the river in the middle of the night. He's not happy about it, but a true businessman never turns down a fat bag of gold so he agrees.

[Zaydos]

By calling them the Three Musketeers, have I accidentally stumbled into an actual fan nickname, or are you guys just using that term because I did?

I called them that when reading the books. I don't know if other people did since didn't really talk to other people who were at the time. I think it's just a natural thing to call them.

[Douglas]

By calling them the Three Musketeers, have I accidentally stumbled into an actual fan nickname, or are you guys just using that term because I did?

I'm just using it because you did. It's a reasonable nickname.

I think I understand how magic works in this series. The power doesn't come from within you, but rather from a massive source that you can tap into. Using magic puts a physical strain on your body, and if you use to much of it, you will die, which means that it's dangerous to cast the really powerful spells.

As far as it goes, that's pretty accurate. The "massive source" is called the True Source, and it literally powers the entire universe. The power itself is called "the One Power". The act of using the One Power is called channeling. How much any given person is capable of channeling safely varies from one person to another (most are simply unable to channel at all), and an angreal (such as Moiraine has, and that term is always italicized in the books) increases that limit.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 12: Across the Taren
Our heroes are ready to cross the Taren, as the chapter title may have clued you in to. The ferry man gets his helpers and they set off on the river.

The word's been mentioned before, but I just have to comment on it here. Servants of Shai'tan go by the name of Darkfriends. Darkfriends, really? Was there already a group called the Badfellas, so you had to go with something even less scary sounding? It sounds like something out a children's show. It is impossible for me to be scared of people with such a silly name.

When the ferry has reached the other side and everyone is off, a sudden whirlpool sucks up the boat and sinks it. Jerk move by Moiraine, but under the circumstances it was a good idea. Don't want to leave any trace of where you've been. Moiraine's fog now runs along the river, making it impossible to tell where they are taking the boat. The Myrddraal won't know if they've crossed to the other side or if they've sailed down the river, meaning that for now at least, the chase is over.

We learn that Moiraine's spell did not take away the horses' fatigue, but rather just made them unable to feel it. They are still tired, and if they keep running they will drop dead of exhaustion. So the group finally beds down in a hiding place Lan set up before he came to Emond's Field, suspecting they might come back this way. Moiraine takes Egwene off to a private area while the boys lay down for the night. But since this story is written in third person limited, and Rand is our viewpoint character, he needs to listen in so that we can get polt information.

Moiraine is explaining to Egwene about the One Power that comes from the True Source(the driving force of creation). The one power is split in two halves, the male Saidin and the female Saidar. Saidin is cursed by Shai'tan and can't be used safely. Any man who uses it dies.

Egwene is able to channel the Saidar, and of course she is a prodigy, able to do on her first try what most new Aes Sedai take months to learn. This a trope in fantasy that bugs me. The heroes are able, with only the smallest amount of training, to surpass people who have dedicated their lives to a craft. Apparently being a hard worker is no match for just being super duper speshul. Now, there are times when it works, especially when the talented character gets off to a head start but the hard worker eventually overtakes them because they dedicate themselves to getting better. Other times though, it makes everyone who's not the hero just seem worthless. Looking at you, DBZ. I'll withhold judgement on this series for now, but I will say that Egwene has not grown on me at all. I think she's kind of annoying.

[Psyren]

Eh, it's the start of the story, someone needs to keep the fragile level 1 PCs alive long enough for them to level up.

This. For example, that thing flying above them is a TPK all on its own without the DMPCs there. Don't worry, it's definitely not a bunch of hobbits.

As far as it goes, that's pretty accurate. The "massive source" is called the True Source, and it literally powers the entire universe. The power itself is called "the One Power". The act of using the One Power is called channeling. How much any given person is capable of channeling safely varies from one person to another (most are simply unable to channel at all), and an angreal (such as Moiraine has, and that term is always italicized in the books) increases that limit.

The angreal has another ability - it also puts a cap over what you can draw (even as it increases your limits), keeping you from pulling too much. On your own, it's possible to kill yourself, burn your abilities out or even immolate the surrounding area if you draw in too much of the stuff, but with an angreal you can pull in as much as possible without worrying about any of that.

Not all angreals have this built-in safety, which becomes a plot point later.

[Anteros]

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I think that's more of your thinking process than anything else.

Within the first few books multiple, matching, undoing, and inverting weaves comes up. The entire design of everything is two halves working with and against each other. I was expecting a wheel-based version of Balefire the moment it was used. Then youknowwho reminded youknowwho that it's just a weave based on the one power and not some super special shiny unique thing which was just a neon flashing sign for everyone that already seen it coming.

It's fine if you disagree, but she isn't one of the patterns main tools and the weave's outcome tells you another story.

Honestly, her entire role in the story is to weaken the White Tower and teach women not to be stubborn.

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I challenge you to find a single instance of a weave having an inverted version in the earlier books. The only time "inverting" is mentioned at all is in regards to making regular weaves invisible to other users of the power.

I don't think you actually read these books. You read some sort of bizarro version of the books or something. Also, yes use spoilers. This thread is literally dedicated to someone reading the series for the first time.

This. For example, that thing flying above them is a TPK all on its own without the DMPCs there. Don't worry, it's definitely not a bunch of hobbits.



The angreal has another ability - it also puts a cap over what you can draw (even as it increases your limits), keeping you from pulling too much. On your own, it's possible to kill yourself, burn your abilities out or even immolate the surrounding area if you draw in too much of the stuff, but with an angreal you can pull in as much as possible without worrying about any of that.

Not all angreals have this built-in safety, which becomes a plot point later.

Why would you intentionally tell him future plot points? I'm sure he doesn't mind people explaining the setting, but specific plot points is probably going too far.

[Gnoman]

I don't think you actually read these books. You read some sort of bizarro version of the books or something.

For what it's worth, I figured out the thing everyone's talking about at least 4 books ahead of time. It was blindingly obvious.