[PEACH]Fifth Edition Binder Class II (Still WIP)

[Prince Zahn]

Quick note on numbers of vestiges per level:

Spoiler: Vestiges per level

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1st: 6
Amon, Aoskar, Dahlver-Nar, Naberius, Ronove, Shax
2nd: 5
Aym, Haagenti, Ipos, Leraje, Malphas
3rd: 4
Focalor, Paimon, Primus, Xanathar
4th: 4
Andras, Haures, Karsus, Savnok
5th: 4
Dantalion, Kas, Otiax, Tenebrous
6th: 5
Andromalius, Chupoclops, Eurynome, Geryon, Zagan
7th: 2
Acererak, Marchosias
8th: 2
Balam, Eligor
9th: 2
Halphax, Orthos

Hopefully, I haven't missed any. Does it bug anyone else that 6th level has a spike in vestiges just before the 7th level drop?

(Thought for Zahn -- give Eurynome a wildshape-lite ability (limited animal selection), play with the focus for druid-y stuff, and bump it up to level 7 to smooth out the curve.)

Didn't think it through, I suppose? I don't intend to make excuses for myself, but it's hard for me to find everything in this thread lately...
I like your idea, the chalenge is to make a feature objectively inferior to the druid's wild shape (like you said, limited selection) but I would add that it mustn't be as powerful as what a moon druid of the same level could do either. When looking for creatures for Eurynome, what CR do you think I should aim for with "Wild Shape Lite"? I'd like to know what I can't do up front, so as to minimize the chance of going overboard by accident (not that going overboard isn't fun every now and then but...)

[Scarce]

Didn't think it through, I suppose?
I like your idea, the chalenge is to make a feature objectively inferior to the druid's wild shape (like you said, limited selection) but I would add that it mustn't be as powerful as what a moon druid of the same level could do either. When looking for creatures for Eurynome, what CR do you think I should aim for with "Wild Shape Lite"? I'd like to know what I can't do up front, so as to minimize the chance of going overboard by accident (not that going overboard isn't fun every now and then but...)

A Druid of the same level can transform into beasts of Challenge 4, so you should probably make the forms no more powerful than level 3. Also, there's no need to unlock more forms as you reach higher levels. Finally, make sure that transforming into a beast doesn't grant free hp (that is to say, if you are reduced to 0 hp in beast form, you don't also have full hp in your normal form.)

[Prince Zahn]

A Druid of the same level can transform into beasts of Challenge 4, so you should probably make the forms no more powerful than level 3. Also, there's no need to unlock more forms as you reach higher levels. Finally, make sure that transforming into a beast doesn't grant free hp (that is to say, if you are reduced to 0 hp in beast form, you don't also have full hp in your normal form.)

These guidelines are simple enough I'll see what I can do!

[Scarce]

These guidelines are simple enough I'll see what I can do!

Good deal. Don't lock down anything too much, though. I'll take another look at it when we reach the 7th level vestiges (though someone should really chime in on the 5th level vestiges before I even move on past them; there are some changes in there that need to be made.)

[Wyntonian]

Hello,

I've been lurking and watching this thread for a while and I'd like to contribute. I'm a 5e veteran, currently running two irl campaigns and participating in four of various degrees of seriousness and length, and I'm working on a creative writing degree so I hope to god I can write. If there's anything I can do to further this project, please let me know! I'll be wrapping up my finals in the next few weeks and I'm looking for something to take on during my winter break.

[Scarce]

Hello,

I've been lurking and watching this thread for a while and I'd like to contribute. I'm a 5e veteran, currently running two irl campaigns and participating in four of various degrees of seriousness and length, and I'm working on a creative writing degree so I hope to god I can write. If there's anything I can do to further this project, please let me know! I'll be wrapping up my finals in the next few weeks and I'm looking for something to take on during my winter break.

Welcome! There's a lot of stuff to be done with the class right now, but less in terms of writing new material, more digging through, editing and balancing the material which already exists. We've done one editing pass for all the vestiges up to 4th level, and I've been waiting for some time for someone else to chime in on the 5th level vestiges which I covered here. If you wanted to build some binders of various levels and give us a better idea of how powerful various level builds are, or if you wanted to build a binder and playtest it properly in an actual game, that would also be extremely helpful!

[Prince Zahn]

Hello,

I've been lurking and watching this thread for a while and I'd like to contribute. I'm a 5e veteran, currently running two irl campaigns and participating in four of various degrees of seriousness and length, and I'm working on a creative writing degree so I hope to god I can write. If there's anything I can do to further this project, please let me know! I'll be wrapping up my finals in the next few weeks and I'm looking for something to take on during my winter break.

Hi there :) welcome to our humble project!
I wish I could talk more because I should be deep asleep by now. Currently we're in sort of a playtesting stage; Scarce is build testing our 1.4 billion vestiges. I'm long overdue on fixing the vestige Codex (busy RL you know how it is, it doesn't help that I can't find a lot of things in the thread)
Speaking of which, Everything Scarce said in the post that shinobi'd me just now is correct. We could use a lot of help, and the technical aspects take priority at this stage. That being said, there are also fluff aspects that need polishing (I.e writing one line "manifestations", legends to be retold and made briefer and/or cooler, editing any less than desired aspect of a vestige) so if you can and wish to stick around until we work on polishing those parts we would be beyond thrilled to have another creative perspective!

[Scarce]

I'm long overdue on fixing the vestige Codex (busy RL you know how it is, it doesn't help that I can't find a lot of things in the thread)

I've been thinking, I know you value the control over the codex, but if you don't think you can maintain it (considering it's been 6 weeks since you've edited it, and you're over two levels behind on the editing phase), I could put together an up-to-date Codex in a matter of hours, flavor text and all.

[Wyntonian]

Fantastic, my rl gaming group is me and my five roommates, so I'm sure I can get one of them to run me through a few dungeon crawls, and I may even be able to play as a Binder in the next 5e campaign we start (it'll probably be one of the published modules but that's a good starting point. I may also have one as an NPC in one of the games I'm DMing.

I can get to the vestiges soon, probably around the 15th or so, and do the math comparing a specialized binder to its closest counterpart in another class, like a Sealed Fate binder focusing on Haagenti with a paladin of the same level. I genuinely like building characters so that should be a fun project for me.

[Scarce]

Fantastic, my rl gaming group is me and my five roommates, so I'm sure I can get one of them to run me through a few dungeon crawls, and I may even be able to play as a Binder in the next 5e campaign we start (it'll probably be one of the published modules but that's a good starting point. I may also have one as an NPC in one of the games I'm DMing.

I can get to the vestiges soon, probably around the 15th or so, and do the math comparing a specialized binder to its closest counterpart in another class, like a Sealed Fate binder focusing on Haagenti with a paladin of the same level. I genuinely like building characters so that should be a fun project for me.

Awesome! Any insight on balance is super valuable to us right now. Also, I'm interested in what you think is hard to understand or difficult to read through when you build the characters. You should probably focus on characters using vestiges of 4th level and lower since those have seen a proper balancing pass.

Welcome to the team!

[Prince Zahn]

I've been thinking, I know you value the control over the codex, but if you don't think you can maintain it (considering it's been 6 weeks since you've edited it, and you're over two levels behind on the editing phase), I could put together an up-to-date Codex in a matter of hours, flavor text and all.

I know you can do it. And I know you could put it together more efficiently than I could. I don't like to think it's over my head.
There are two main reasons why it takes so long, I'm not counting any procrastination for a change because I really am a pretty busy man.
1. I can't find a lot of things on the archives, which makes staying updated rather difficult.
2. I have this pretty finicky format going on that I wanted to standardize, some of it involves microediting words and bracket codes in vestige entries (like using "you can" instead of "you may", among other things) --That I feel that If I'm not supervising over it, then it won't come out the way I want it to. If I had the time and energy to go and do it, it would have been done by early October.

Look, can I have a little time to think this over?

[Wyntonian]

If there's any tasks like that you need to delegate, I'm happy to do some of the busywork.

On a related note, here's some feedback on the 5th level vestiges. This is purely mechanical, so I won't comment on the legends or fluff. (For what it's worth, I thought they were, at worst, a fine starting point)

I've compared the benefits of the 5th level vestiges to 9th level abilities in other classes, and 5th level spells from full-casting classes as a benchmark for balance.

Spoiler: Andras

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Proficiencies: Reasonable, certainly. I wonder how a sometimes-on proficiency like this would work in a long-running campaign. Would a character budget around affording a decent magical longsword they use only sometimes? Doesn't effect balance particularly, just something to consider.

Phantom Steed: My first thought is that like any expendable summons a player could use this to set off traps remotely, as the range is 30 feet and it can be done at-will every minute. Considering how long the spell lasts it might be worthwhile to have it be cast as a ritual only (which would take 11 minutes instead of 1). It's possible I'm being too GitP-y about it and it's not necessary to balance a class around the most exploitative possible uses of class features (and really it isn't that bad to begin with), but I'll leave that up to the rest of the team.

Improved Critical: Takes me back to a couple years ago when I played 3.5. I have no concerns here, fighters have had a better version of this for six levels already. I could have sworn bladelocks had something similar but I guess not. When I do my comparisons, I'll definitely test a level 9-10 bladelock against a semi-optimized Sealed Fate binder with Andras and one of the more melee focused level 1-2 vestiges and see if this and the superiority dice can stand up to the spells and invocations from the warlock.

Combat Superiority: Smaller dice and fewer of them than a level 3 Battlemaster. No complaints there. My only question is if the save DC's are based off str/dex as they are for fighters or if they're cha based like basically every other binder feature.

Overall Andras looks good mechanically. As far as I can tell the Binder is balanced around having a whole wardrobe of bargain-bin knockoffs of other designer class features and Andras is a good addition to that mix. He is different than some vestiges in that all of his class features seem aligned towards performing a specific task (namely charging on horseback with a lance), and a lot of other vestiges seem to be more eclectic in their features.

I also agree with the changes to Sow Discord (which sounds like an incredibly fun feature to use), and the placement as a 4th level vestige.

Spoiler: Dantalion

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Dantalion's Knowledge: Binders get three of the five int-based skills as possible skill proficiencies, and without Perception as an option and with Charisma as a main skill it's pretty likely they'll have one. Also, a lot of the backgrounds that seem most appropriate (Acolyte, Sage, Hermit) give proficiency with INT-based skills. All that is to say is that Binders with Dantalion will often do pretty damn well at asking their DM to drop some exposition.

Dantalion's Awe: Quite strong, as the DC will be fairly high at this level, but definitely not insurmountable. This is most effective on a buffer-type character, and I've not seen too many vestiges that make the Binder into a WoW-style priest so free Sanctuaries probably won't be a concern.

Telepath: Strong, but it seems to be the centerpiece of the vestige so that's okay. I'm concerned about what "digging deeper" means, but I suppose that's up to DM discretion.

Thought Travel: I'm not completely sure how I feel about vestige features scaling so well with levels, but I'm not going to disagree until I have a better feel on the state of vestiges as a whole. Still, this fits for the evasive nature of the vestige and doesn't synergize too strongly with any other class features. I might suggest changing the improvements so that it can be cast reflexively after taking damage, like the fey warlock's Misty Step feature.

Overall I like Dantalion and would probably frequently bind him in a social/political/investigative game, but I don't feel that he's strong enough to hedge out the competition. In fact he could probably use a nudge towards being a little stronger.

Spoiler: Otiax

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Proficiencies: Good for getting a pseudo-rogue if the party needs one, but I don't think binders have much incentive to get dex as anything more than a secondary/tertiary stat. Plus it's totally overshadowed by Knock.

Fog Sight: Cool, but mostly considering how it synergizes with the other abilities.

Concealing Mist: This is basically a gimped version of the dodge action until 14 when it gets pretty good. Consider giving it something else before then?

Obscuring Mist: VERY good with Fog Sight, basically makes you untouchable as you can put it down, hide in it, and use your ranged attacks to strike targets that can't see you. Also it makes Concealing Mist kind of useless below 14 as you can just use one action to get a better effect (safety from ranged attacks) for a number of turns, rather than using your action each turn.

Unlock: Also pretty strong, but not unreasonable. Good supplement to the thieves tools, thematically and mechanically.

Fog Hammer: Is this supposed to count as a reach weapon for the purposes of threatened area? If so then you can make opportunity attacks at everyone who moves through your fog zone assuming you're at the center. I like it otherwise, kind of a neat complement to the vestige to make it more than an evasive, lockpicky sort of choice.

Death Fog: Wild, easily the best feature of any vestige of this level considering even wizards only get a spell of this level 1/day. Puts Otiax near the top in terms of combat viability for vestiges of this level.

Otiax is thematically very strong, and his abilities all make sense to coexist in one bundle. He does have six strong abilities compared to Dantalion's four, which is part of what makes him a clearly better choice for anything but a very interaction-based adventuring day. I'd suggest toning down Death Fog slightly, potentially treating it as an improved form of Obscuring Mist (as in, once per day when you cast obscuring mist it deals xd6 damage to any creature (possibly excluding yourself and allies) that moves through it). This would make the feature set more cohesive and make it play better with itself, which I think is important with bigger feature lists like this.

Spoiler: Tenebrous

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Slay Light: The wording here is a little wonky. It looks like the stuff before "Additionally," can only be done 1/day. Could be I'm misreading this but when it's daylight and I'm fully sober I'll come up with an alternative phrasing.

Grave Darkness: This is similar to what I was suggesting above, potentially too similar. I'm still very fond of it.

Sense the Shadows: As a DM, I like that it doesn't give away the locations of my sneaky monsters. As a player, I like how this would contribute to atmosphere. Very nice overall.

Rime of Emptiness: Nice little damage boost, like 5 damage on average. Nothing to write home about but it'd be useful with two-weapon fighting or a multiple attack feature.

Flicker: Very cool. I have no serious qualms about this power-wise, but most features will recharge on either a short or long rest, not just a short rest. Probably just say "short or long rest".

This vestige is thematically very sound, and all of the abilities fit well together. I'm not too concerned about any of them, but I should really check through the cr <3 undead to see if any of them have any exploitable abilities.

EDIT: I've looked through the undead with a CR of 3 or under and found that the ghast, mummy, shadow and wight seem to be the choices to balance the ability around, as they have a good variety of debuffs between them.

[Scarce]

On a related note, here's some feedback on the 5th level vestiges.

Great stuff! It looks like we're very much on the same page. I've changed the levels on Kas and Andras, and edited Tenebrous from some of your notes. I might yet do some editing on Otiax and Dantalion to give them a little more power (I'm waiting on Submortimer to see if he wants to do the edits himself.) However, now I'm second-guessing whether or not Otiax needs something with a little less bite than cloudkill. I'll think it over- that's a great note.

Next, I'm going to start looking up the 6th level vestiges. Wyntonian, let me know if you need help finding anything in this sprawling post, or if something strikes you as broken. I've been focusing a lot on the vestige section of the class, but feel free to chime in if you find anything in the class chassis or the subclasses that seems unbalanced.

[Scarce]

It's been a busy week for me, but I have (slightly) revised versions of Dantalion and Otiax, wrapping up level 5.

Here's Dantalion. Still less combat proficient as the others on this list, but a strong party face and utility vestige for the higher levels.

Spoiler: Dantalion

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Dantalion's Knowledge
You receive insight on any topic which you might be researching. You can add you Charisma Modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier to all Intelligence skill checks. Additionally, you gain advantage on Intelligence skill checks made concerning royalty, nobility, current or ancient kingdoms, and the like.

Dantalion's Awe
You invoke the full awe and might of Dantalion, cowing your enemies before you. You can cast sanctuary without using a spell slot.

Telepath
You can speak with your mind and read the thoughts of others. You can communicate telepathically with any creature within 30 feet that knows at least 1 language, even if you do not share a common language. Additionally, you can read the surface thoughts of creatures within 30 feet (those foremost in its mind, reflecting its current emotions and what it is actively thinking about); this allows two-way communication.
If you wish to probe deeper into a creature's thoughts, the creature must a Wisdom saving throw to prevent you from looking into his mind. If it fails, you gain insight into its reasoning (if any), its emotional state, and something that looms large in its mind (such as something it worries over, loves, or hates). If it succeeds, it is unaffected by this ability for 24 hours.

Thought Travel
You can instantly transport yourself to a location that you can call to mind. You can cast dimension door without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again. At 18th level, you can cast dimension door at will.

Teleport
Beginning at 15th level, you can cast teleport without expending a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

Dantalion's Domination
Dantalion's royal lineage allows you to control others. You can cast dominate person. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

And Otiax. My only fear is that he might be too well-rounded. I've been considering cutting Death Fog entirely, simply to keep it from being the perfect vestige choice. Thoughts on that?

Spoiler: Otiax

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Bonus Proficiencies
While bond to Otiax, you gain proficiency with thieves' tools.

Fog Sight
You may see normally through obscurement caused by fog, clouds, smoke, or any other similar effect.

Concealing Mist
You whip up the mists that surrounds you into a concealing cloud. As a bonus action, you can thicken the cloud around you, causing all ranged spell and ranged melee attacks against you to be made at disadvantage. This effect ends at the end of your next turn, though you may use your bonus action to maintain the cloud; it also ends in the presence of a strong wind.
At 14th level, you can include all creatures adjacent to you within the cloud. At 18th level, you can include all creatures within 10 feet.

Obscuring Mist
You summon a roiling cloud of blue fog, obscuring the area. You may cast fog cloud without a using a spell slot.

Fog Hammer
You can whip the fog about you into lashing tendrils of mist, slamming your foes with concussive force. As an action, you may make a melee spell attack against a creature within 10 feet, dealing 2d6 + your Charisma modifier magical bludgeoning damage on a hit. You may use Fog Hammer to make opportunity attacks.
At level 14, you can make two attacks with fog hammer as an action; at level 18, you may make three attacks with fog hammer as an action.

Unlock
You focus your mist into a lock you can see, popping it open with a thought. You may cast knock without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a short or long rest before doing so again.

Death Fog
You create a burst of brilliant blue fog, leeching the life out of creatures unlucky enough to be caught in it. You may cast cloudkill without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

Next, I'm moving on to 6th level. It might take me a while to get meaningful responses on 6th level, because it's kind of a mess. Chupoclops (one of mine) basically needs an entire rewrite with a dual-focus on fighting like a monster and being ethereal (cutting out the whole Despair Aura thing,) and Zagan needs some reorganizing to make it a little more digestible. Geryon might be too powerful, and Andromalius might be too weak.

If Wyntonian is up to it, I'd like to see his take on Chupoclops. I posted some very general guidelines not long ago. I would make sure this one synergise well with the Twisted Fate, which gets extra attacks from his extra natural attacks (like Chupoclops's bite.) Make sure the ethereal stuff compliments Haures, if possible.

[The_Doctor]

Speaking of team members, I'm back. Limited time only.

[Scarce]

Speaking of team members, I'm back. Limited time only.

While you're back, do you want some homework?

I could use some help sizing up some binder builds. A few form-filled character sheets of 7th-9th level binders (with different subclasses) would be invaluable to me right now.

[Scarce]

Quick update for everyone:

I'll be taking control of the Vestige Codex in the near future. While compiling the information, I noticed that a few of the vestiges really need complete rewrites. Chupoclops, Marchosias, and Haagenti all deserve a rewrite. Anyone can free to get cracking on them

EDIT: I think I'll tackle Haagenti.

[Submortimer]

Speaking of subclasses, are the four done? Are they where we want them to be? If not, I'll gladly shore those up, as that seems to be my area of expertise.

[Scarce]

Speaking of subclasses, are the four done? Are they where we want them to be? If not, I'll gladly shore those up, as that seems to be my area of expertise.

I know for a fact that we never rewrote the Unfettered, ethereal one, but I think the others were playtest-ready. If you'd like to take another look at them to ensure they're about on the level, be my guest

[Submortimer]

Now, honestly, I'm thinking we shold drop unfettered. It just seems like there's too much going on, looking back at the original posts.

Speaking of, since you're redoing the codex anyways, what say you or I do a refresh of the Binder thread? It's getting a bit bloated, and the initial post with all the class info is out of date.

[Prince Zahn]

Now, honestly, I'm thinking we shold drop unfettered. It just seems like there's too much going on, looking back at the original posts.

Are we starting this again? I think we can still do things with the released fate, we just need to get a little creative. We only put it away because my head was hurting from rapidly shifting topics.

Speaking of, since you're redoing the codex anyways, what say you or I do a refresh of the Binder thread? It's getting a bit bloated, and the initial post with all the class info is out of date.

Hey I'm sorry about all the inconvenience with the front page!
I requested from scarce to rework the codex because realistically I have a lot on my plate. I DO intend to get back to managing this project once I have the leisure. I may have a few things on to get done first because real life is hard atm, but I'm not done with the original page yet.

If you would like to point out what needs updating in the chassis, it might speed things along a little bit though.
As for subclasses - it would help if someone could find the latest versions of them, there are a lot of bugs that need cleaning in that department all around anyway.

[Submortimer]

Are we starting this again? I think we can still do things with the released fate, we just need to get a little creative. We only put it away because my head was hurting from rapidly shifting topics.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying that we already have 4 completed subclasses, and in the interests of both time and PDF size, we should probably cut Released Fate for now and release (ha!) it later as supplemental material. One of the things that kinda concerns me is that we all seem to be losing steam, and that is often the death of big projects like this. Let's polish up what is done, and let Scarce get to work on what is likely to be a beast of a PDF.

Hey I'm sorry about all the inconvenience with the front page!
I requested from scarce to rework the codex because realistically I have a lot on my plate. I DO intend to get back to managing this project once I have the leisure. I may have a few things on to get done first because real life is hard atm, but I'm not done with the original page yet.

If you would like to point out what needs updating in the chassis, it might speed things along a little bit though.
As for subclasses - it would help if someone could find the latest versions of them, there are a lot of bugs that need cleaning in that department all around anyway.

I don't think the Chassis needs any more work, I just think that the original few posts are not well formatted and need some rework, plus this thread is getting very long in the tooth. I think reposting the original class, subclasses, and associated material with links to scarce's thread would make it much more clean for people looking at ithe who are new to the project.

[Scarce]

I'm with Submortimer on keeping the Unfettered fate tabled for now in the interests of moving forward. 4 subclasses is plenty for playtesting, and we have plenty of work ahead of us yet.

I don't think the Chassis needs any more work, I just think that the original few posts are not well formatted and need some rework, plus this thread is getting very long in the tooth. I think reposting the original class, subclasses, and associated material with links to scarce's thread would make it much more clean for people looking at ithe who are new to the project.

I agree with you, but I'd like to be through the first editing phase before we do a repost, such that we can confidently say to playtesters that we've looked at each individual element of this class, if not every possible interaction one can have with vestiges. With some help from you guys, this'll be soon. Then the focus can shift into a balancing and playtesting phase, and I can work on the PDF.

The new codex is up to 5th level. 6th level is a nightmare right now.


Let's talk about these 6th level vestiges, shall we? Because of how varied these entries are, this time for comments I'll be asking questions about a lot more topics.

Andromalius
- You can't be surprised
- Blindsight 30 feet
- Remove a creature's proficiency bonus
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1+Cha/short)
- Otto's Irresistible Dance (1/long)

Chupoclops
This vestige tries to do too many things, and needs a rewrite for thematic consistency. The new version should focus entirely on having monstrous features and ethereal stuff (meaning a few of the current features can be salvaged, if one desires.) Scrap despair for thematic focus. Furthermore, it does need a little more power.

Geryon
- Darkvision, 60 feet. Can see in magical darkness
- 1 target, Con save vs 3d6 acid + 3d4 at beginning of target's turn. 17th level (4d8 / 4d4)
- fly, bonus action, (1/short)
- Creatures in 30 feet, Wis save or frightened for 1 minute (1/short)
- eyebite (1/long)

Zagan
- Advantage on attacks against snakes.
- Resistance to poison damage, advantage against being poisoned
- Advantage to track by smell. Limited blindsight: detect presence of creatures within 30 feet.
- Grappling stuff
○ Unarmed Strike: bonus action to begin grapple
○ Advantage on attacks against a creature you are grappling
○ You can pin
- Deal 2d6+Str to creature you grapple, bonus action
- 1 creature, Wis save or frightened for 1 hour, action (1/short)

Spoiler: Comments: Andromalius

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This one is pretty straightforward to me. It has a lot of good stuff, but needs some simple edits, so I think I'll just make the following changes in the codex:

• Give rogue's Blindsense feature instead of blindsight.
• Make interception impose disadvantage on a creature you can see.
• Tasha's hideous laughter is at will.

Spoiler: Comments: Geryon

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• Should the acidic gaze thing deal half damage on a failed save? Right now, it doesn't.
• Is granting fly on a short rest recharge too powerful? A one per short rest 3rd level spell at this level should be fine, but fly feels like it's different than other spells.

Spoiler: Comments: Zagan

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• Why doesn't the grapple stuff include all the stuff from the grappler feat? Maybe serpent's grasp and serpent's crush should be merged for tidiness.
• Thought: while bound to Zagan, increase max HP by level. You need to incentivize a binder to go in close-quarters, and incentivise non-grapple builds to use Zagan.
• Is 1 hour too long for frighten, even single target?

With input on this last point, I can probably fix Zagan right up myself. It's probably the strongest of this batch.

[Scarce]

Oh, and I almost forgot: if anyone cares, I did that rewrite on Haagenti as well:

Spoiler: Haagenti 3.0

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Bonus Proficiencies
While bound to Haagenti, you have proficiency with shields, battleaxes, and greataxes.

Fighting Style
You adopt the following style of fighting as your specialty. You can't take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Great Weapon Fighting. When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

Immunity to Transformation
As a bonus action, you can end the effects of any transmutation spell affecting you that you choose. You are also immune to being petrified.

Cleave
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

Minotaur's Size
As an action you can gain the "enlarge" effect of the enlarge/reduce spell for 1 minute, without expending a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you must take a long rest before casting it again.

It's also available on the Codex.

[Prince Zahn]

I'm with Submortimer on keeping the Unfettered fate tabled for now in the interests of moving forward. 4 subclasses is plenty for playtesting, and we have plenty of work ahead of us yet.


I agree with you, but I'd like to be through the first editing phase before we do a repost, such that we can confidently say to playtesters that we've looked at each individual element of this class, if not every possible interaction one can have with vestiges. With some help from you guys, this'll be soon. Then the focus can shift into a balancing and playtesting phase, and I can work on the PDF.

The new codex is up to 5th level. 6th level is a nightmare right now.


Let's talk about these 6th level vestiges, shall we? Because of how varied these entries are, this time for comments I'll be asking questions about a lot more topics.

Andromalius
- You can't be surprised
- Blindsight 30 feet
- Remove a creature's proficiency bonus
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1+Cha/short)
- Otto's Irresistible Dance (1/long)

Chupoclops
This vestige tries to do too many things, and needs a rewrite for thematic consistency. The new version should focus entirely on having monstrous features and ethereal stuff (meaning a few of the current features can be salvaged, if one desires.) Scrap despair for thematic focus. Furthermore, it does need a little more power.

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com
[SPOILER=Comments: Andromalius ]This one is pretty straightforward to me. It has a lot of good stuff, but needs some simple edits, so I think I'll just make the following changes in the codex:

• Give rogue's Blindsense feature instead of blindsight.
• Make interception impose disadvantage on a creature you can see.
• Tasha's hideous laughter is at will.

[/SPOILER]

I reckon if the majority has spoken, we could make a 3rd binder thread and clean this stuff up, as scarce said, not yet at least. While I'm admittedly not the best at presentation by any sense, I'd still like to pull my share of this project in every way I can, though I'm usually much better at it when I know what I must do.
I'll link your vestige Codex to the OP later today, let me know if there's anything else I could do.

Spoiler: Andromalius

Show

• I would be much more inclined to blindsense if it wasn't a 14th level feature, but I do see your point.
• I can live with that.
• I can live with that too.

[Scarce]

Hold on, Andromalius is the Repentant Rogue in Tome of Magic, rather than the Woeful Jester. I'm not against the change (I'm totally indifferent), it just caught me by surprise. Why the name change, Zahn?

[Prince Zahn]

It was mostly a whim to be frank, I didn't think it would hurt anybody if I played with the concept a little. He seemed mechanically more about finding stolen goods and stopping thieves with their own tools despite striking me as more of a jester rogue. He used to have sneak attack too, which I didn't want to pass on. So I changed a few things to hopefully work as a 6th level vestige. If it bothers people enough we can change it back, but I would be less fond of it creatively.

[Scarce]

It was mostly a whim to be frank, I didn't think it would hurt anybody if I played with the concept a little. He seemed mechanically more about finding stolen goods and stopping thieves with their own tools despite striking me as more of a jester rogue. He used to have sneak attack too, which I didn't want to pass on. So I changed a few things to hopefully work as a 6th level vestige. If it bothers people enough we can change it back, but I would be less fond of it creatively.

I'm totally fine with it. It's a small change, but it's true to the character, so I say it stays

[Wyntonian]

If it bothers people enough we can change it back, but I would be less fond of it creatively.

I have no objections. Sorry to be near-invisible but I'm a week from finishing my semester and I found a well of discipline somewhere so I've actually been focused on writing essays. I'll review the 6th level vestiges and maybe the subclasses when I'm done.

[Scarce]

I have no objections. Sorry to be near-invisible but I'm a week from finishing my semester and I found a well of discipline somewhere so I've actually been focused on writing essays. I'll review the 6th level vestiges and maybe the subclasses when I'm done.

No problem, dude. I'm taking finals soon here too, so I might vanish for a day or so at a time.