General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[kamikasei]

I think they pretty intentionally kept Kudelia useless for so long... While I also expected her to be more active and less oblivious in her role as from the start I guess it kind of fits with her being that pampered, shielded princess character.

Well sure, it "fits" with the character it turns out they wanted her to be (I don't seriously think they changed their minds while making the show), because that's the character they made her to be. It's just a much less interesting character than they could have made her, or it looked at the start like they were going to have.

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When you ask a lot of people to risk their lives to help you do something, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you have the first notion of what it is you're trying to do. At the start of the show, it looked like Kudelia was an idealistic rabble-rouser who would learn something about the ground-level impact of the ideals she was espousing. Instead it appears she literally knows nothing about anything, and the only reason she got in to the position she was in at the start of the show, kicking off all the events, was because a bunch of rich old guys settled on her as a convenient figurehead-slash-pawn. She then spent a dozen episodes literally doing and achieving nothing whatsoever while moping around making sad faces about how useless she was (and making the suffering and hardship of the people dying to fulfil the job she gave them All About Her).

Compare this to an alternate telling of the story where Kudelia may be sheltered, but does know how politics and high society work, and is using her connections and skills to manoeuvre Tekkadan through the pitfalls that they can't simply fight their way out of - the stuff that Teiwaz ended up doing for them - and using the travel time to lay groundwork for her arrival on Earth. Or hell, just a telling where they don't take a dozen episodes to get to Earth. Instead it looks like they're trying now to build her in to the character she could have been from the beginning, without the intervening time buying anything worthwhile in exchange. It may be deliberate, but it's bad pacing and bad use of the characters.

[ex cathedra]

I'm about halfway through Natural so far, mixing it up with Azumanga Daioh.

i finished the rest of the season up this afternoon. i wasn't particularly immersed for most of natural but i thought that the last ~4 or so episodes were just wonderful. suteki as ****, really. the first cour's ED was probably my favorite of the whole franchise, though.

[Kato]

Really? I mean, I've only watched a couple others (Wing, 00, 08th MS), but IBO has been so Gundam it hurts a few times.

Okay, but apart from 08th these all have somewhat strong differences to the average Gundam. Wing, 00 and Orphans are rather explicitely about child soldiers, something other Gundams only do via "fallen in the cockpit$ kids. Also, the death count in Wing and Orphans is higher than average for Gundam shows. Or that's how it feels, anyway. While it's not a rule, many Gundam shows kind of stick closer to the Original plot of the 0079 series, albeit with twists. Those three (and G) are the furthest away from that.

Well sure, it "fits" with the character it turns out they wanted her to be (I don't seriously think they changed their minds while making the show), because that's the character they made her to be. It's just a much less interesting character than they could have made her, or it looked at the start like they were going to have.

[...]

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Of course I know what you mean. And they could have spent way less time on the "Kudelia is useless" arc. As you say, the distinction is between someone who wants to help people and has some idea on how to do that and... well, someone who has no idea what that means. Both work but one gives more room for her to improve. Of course they could have also made a Kudelia who knows exactly what she wants and what she needs to do, but knowing how to run a revolution is hard and Kudelia being that oblivious... well, it makes her a tool to begin with Okay, I guess I really can't say why I think it's fine except I'm fine with her growing up so much (or I hope she will).

[Morph Bark]

I've recently been watching Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo (The Pet Girl of Sakurasou) and really like it. I'm typically neither much a fan of slice of life (they tend to be so similar) nor romance (as a sub-plot I like it, not so much as a main plot), but the characterization is done really well and I found it easier to associate with the main character than in other, similar anime, probably at least in part due to him trying to become a game designer like I am. It's not really one I binge-watch, but I find it a good one to watch in bed before going to sleep.

I've also tried out a bit of Fairy Tail to get a bit of a better understanding of it. I just started with looking up in the wiki what plots there are, and it seems to be a very arc-based thing, which I'm not really into (at least not anymore) with relatively little call-backs/foreshadowing aside from a few things relating to one or two characters. I really enjoyed the action scenes and some of the bigger plot stuff, but outside of that it felt a bit mediocre. Since I went out of my way to try and find exactly those parts that would catch my interest the most, the rest is undoubtedly not for me by a long shot. I guess it's a good entry-level anime, like many of the long-runners are, but this felt subpar to stuff like Naruto and One Piece. Is there something I'm missing in that comparison that makes Fairy Tail good enough to have gained the popularity to go on for so long? I read a few stretches of the manga that weren't turned into anime yet, and it feels really janky. Plot twists that should be big are treated almost casually, and some scene changes (as with Aquarius taking Lucy and another woman to another dimension) are incredibly abrupt without proper explanation as to why.

[Rodin]

I've also tried out a bit of Fairy Tail to get a bit of a better understanding of it. I just started with looking up in the wiki what plots there are, and it seems to be a very arc-based thing, which I'm not really into (at least not anymore) with relatively little call-backs/foreshadowing aside from a few things relating to one or two characters. I really enjoyed the action scenes and some of the bigger plot stuff, but outside of that it felt a bit mediocre. Since I went out of my way to try and find exactly those parts that would catch my interest the most, the rest is undoubtedly not for me by a long shot. I guess it's a good entry-level anime, like many of the long-runners are, but this felt subpar to stuff like Naruto and One Piece. Is there something I'm missing in that comparison that makes Fairy Tail good enough to have gained the popularity to go on for so long? I read a few stretches of the manga that weren't turned into anime yet, and it feels really janky. Plot twists that should be big are treated almost casually, and some scene changes (as with Aquarius taking Lucy and another woman to another dimension) are incredibly abrupt without proper explanation as to why.

I tried watching Fairy Tail and only got through the first 50 episodes before giving up on it, so you're not alone in this. I found it to be very generic, and while it had some good fight scenes those weren't enough to hold me. I mostly found that I didn't care about the characters, and the humor wasn't as good as similar shows.

I keep trying to get into One Piece as well, but the early episodes of that show are so freaking weird. I don't know if it's something where the show outgrows that or whether it gets better eventually.

[Morph Bark]

I think One Piece is a show that grows into and out of its weirdness at times, though it's never fully without. I watched the first 12 episodes of it before stopping, but I picked up the manga from the point where they encounter Moira(?), an infamous pirate necromancer, and read from there until after the timeskip when things got really slow and kinda boring during the mermaid island arc. I've seen some videos of fights that take place in the in-between times that looked great, with the humour being constant and not out of place (because all the characters are a little weird, but it's all well incorporated; character design, personality and fighting style all together), and I followed the anime for a bit during and shortly after the Impel Down arc.

I think One Piece is probably one of the long-runners that is pretty easy to jump into at any point, because the characters are relatively simple overall, but with hidden depths that get explored sometimes. It makes them instantly recognizeable (oh, that's the ladies' man, that's the samurai dude who's super strong, that's the mascot, etc.) and unless you jump into an episode/chapter that's really been built-up to, you're not going to be much out of the loop, much like with sitcoms or police procedural shows, though a bit less episodic.

Gintama's probably another one of those shows, considering it's huge length and how highly people rate it still, but I've never watched any of it aside from one badass fight with some side characters.

Naruto's less easy to get into, because the characters are a little more complex and it's quite heavily geared towards longer stretches of plot, for better or for worse. (A fourth of the manga takes place during a couple of days, for one.)

[cobaltstarfire]

We recently finished Hanbei Renmei. It was ok, I feel like it didn't go to its full potential. (It also hit a little too close to home sometimes, but it did it in small enough chunks, and I actually kind of liked that about it). I want to see more stories from it and stuff.

We also watched both seasons of Love, Chuunibyou, and Other Delusions. Which I thought to be really strange, but also really cute, and genuine in it's own way. (also kind of funny, is it reminded me of some people I knew in highschool who basically had minor chuunibyou...)

The list is starting to wind down, we've been watching some other non-anime things too. I think once we finish the whole list I'll come back and post my overall thoughts on the things we watched...if I can remember them anyway. I think we're probably going to do Full Metal Alchemist last...

I plan on having us watch the first Full Metal Alchemist that was made, I can't remember why, but that was the thought I had about it back when we had discussed it a little bit.

[ex cathedra]

Naruto's less easy to get into, because the characters are a little more complex and it's quite heavily geared towards longer stretches of plot, for better or for worse. (A fourth of the manga takes place during a couple of days, for one.)

the most common complaint i've read about naruto is its long stretches of not plot. isn't it like half filler? i'm all kinds of not interested in that genre so i wouldn't take my own word for it, though.

[Mx.Silver]

We recently finished Hanbei Renmei. It was ok, I feel like it didn't go to its full potential.

Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I ask because personally I'm not sure how much further it could have really gone, given what it's about, so I'm curious where you think the missed areas were. Although I also wouldn't say that the subject matter of it that's liable to hit close to home is only there in small chunks either, so that might have something to do with it (of course, how much of that subject matter is apparent can depend on the individual viewer's mental wave-length - a phenomenon it shares with Evangelion to an extent, although Eva's a bit more obvious about it).

I plan on having us watch the first Full Metal Alchemist that was made, I can't remember why, but that was the thought I had about it back when we had discussed it a little bit.

The first series was the one that was recommended back when you were asking for suggestions, iirc.
Although that would have been before Funimation took most of it done from their youtube channel following their BluRay re-release of it in November (which , predictably, is not available in Region 2 because the PAL regions are hated by everyone outside of them) so availability might be more of an issue now.

[Lethologica]

the most common complaint i've read about naruto is its long stretches of not plot. isn't it like half filler? i'm all kinds of not interested in that genre so i wouldn't take my own word for it, though.

Naruto has more filler episodes than any other anime, as far as I'm aware. But last time I checked, Bleach had a slightly higher percentage of filler.

Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I ask because personally I'm not sure how much further it could have really gone, given what it's about, so I'm curious where you think the missed areas were. Although I also wouldn't say that the subject matter of it that's liable to hit close to home is only there in small chunks either, so that might have something to do with it (of course, how much of that subject matter is apparent can depend on the individual viewer's mental wave-length - a phenomenon it shares with Evangelion to an extent, although Eva's a bit more obvious about it).

Maybe the setting could have been more fully/broadly/whatever-ly explored? I mean, it's not really central to the show's development, but I really can't think of anything else.

[Rodin]

Naruto has more filler episodes than any other anime, as far as I'm aware. But last time I checked, Bleach had a slightly higher percentage of filler.

What's driving me crazy at the minute is the fact that they're STILL doing filler for Naruto. The manga's done, guys. Finished. You don't need to spin it out any more. Plus, I don't know the ending but I have a vague idea, and even the anime can't be more than a dozen or so episodes away from being finished.

Wrap up the actual plot and then start diving into these weird alternate universe scenarios. Or just plain work on something else until the sequel series is far enough along to adapt. Something.

[Mx.Silver]

Maybe the setting could have been more fully/broadly/whatever-ly explored? I mean, it's not really central to the show's development, but I really can't think of anything else.

Possibly. Personally I wouldn't have thought there's much more to the town that needed exploring (maybe a bit more on how the other group of haibane lived?), but that's why I'm curious about others' thoughts on it.

[cobaltstarfire]

I feel like there was a lot of world building in it that was never expanded on. Though I understand some of it definitely shouldn't be expanded upon, but I would just enjoy getting more character stories from it I guess.

As far as it not hitting home for you, well of course everyone is different, you're not really suggesting just because it didn't tweak you a little bit that it shouldn't have tweaked me? Why is that a problem at all?

Spoiler: Somewhat Spoilery I guess

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Certain things just resonated with me strongly. Maybe you don't go through life with the kinds of feeling Rakka and Reki in particular did, but I do, and I'm happy that things worked out for them.

Either way I'm happy with how it tweaked me, without completely embroiling itself in it, it moved forward it was nice, and therapeutic. I think it's a very good point about the show, which is why I mentioned it.

Eva's problem is that it wallows, and wallows, and then it wallows some more. It could tell the same story and get to the depths of how broken all the kids and adults are without all the wallowing. While I would never watch it again, I really do like many of the concepts. core story, and the creature designs in Eva, it's just too willing to bludgeon you over the head with all the broken people who are happy to just wallow in their pit and do nothing to climb out non-stop.


I never intended to watch full metal alchemist on youtube either way, so it's not a big bother to me if it's been taken down.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think One Piece is probably one of the long-runners that is pretty easy to jump into at any point, because the characters are relatively simple overall, but with hidden depths that get explored sometimes. It makes them instantly recognizeable (oh, that's the ladies' man, that's the samurai dude who's super strong, that's the mascot, etc.) and unless you jump into an episode/chapter that's really been built-up to, you're not going to be much out of the loop, much like with sitcoms or police procedural shows, though a bit less episodic.

Gintama's probably another one of those shows, considering it's huge length and how highly people rate it still, but I've never watched any of it aside from one badass fight with some side characters.

I can confirm this about Gintama (I'm about 40ish episodes in). It's very much like a weird anime sitcom that transforms into a heartfelt drama at times. Very easy to drop into and out of, too. I'll go and watch other stuff, then come back and watch an arc or so of Gintama. Works pretty well.

[Mx.Silver]

As far as it not hitting home for you, well of course everyone is different, you're not really suggesting just because it didn't tweak you a little bit that it shouldn't have tweaked me? Why is that a problem at all?

Oh no, I'm not saying that at all. I brought up the 'in small chunks' element because the thing in question struck me as being a very large part of the series - in fact I'd say its the probably the single biggest thematic element to it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'm not saying it should have resonated with you more than it did either, just be clear - in fact if it wasn't more than small chunks than that's probably a good thing, given what's involved. I was just putting it forward as a potential difference in our viewing experiences, which might explain the difference in conclusion vis-a-vis its potential (as personally all I'd say about Renmei is that Reki's arc might have benefitted from a denouement).
I brought it up because it's an aspect of the series that a fair few people seem to miss almost entirely. Possibly both because Renmei is a rather understated series and that the topic in question can be a bit of a difficult one for a lot of people even in series which aren't understated at all about it.

[cobaltstarfire]

I'm actually surprised to hear that people "miss" those bits, without them the whole series would be rather...pointless, I guess?


I do have a feeling of some lack of closure. I also feel like it'd be neat to learn a little more about the wall, and a little more beyond what was strongly suggested with the communicator. It's a very nebulous not quite filled feeling really. I wish I could elaborate, maybe I just really wish I could personally explore the setting and ask all the questions that would probably get me in a heap of trouble if I was actually in the setting asking those questions.


But yeah, bottom line, in the end I think it covered something very ugly in a very honest yet gentle way, and that is just...really nice, I wish more stories could handle the topics this one did with as much grace.

[Mx.Silver]

It probably won't surprise you to learn that a fairly common sentiment among those people is that 'there isn't much to talk about' when it comes to the series. Either that or over-emphasising the more theological elements/imagery instead, even though a fair amount of that is tied-up in what I'd term the main theme, and aren't that central to the series (which I suspect is part of the reason why everything beyond the walls is left ambiguous).
That latter stuff is a bit outside the board-friendly area of topics though.


The unfullfilment is understandable, although given what the wall and everything beyond that represents/is elaborating on it would sort of defeat the purpose of it being The Unknown. Which wouldn't make it any less unfulfilling for someone who found it that way, of course.

[Felyndiira]

One of the things I realized about Haibane Reimei is that the unexplained parts of the world are intentional. If the series started explaining everything about the world - like what's behind that wall, for instance - it might generate a dramatic moment, but it would take a lot of the mysticism away from the setting. As-is, the series explains just enough of the world for us to comprehend and feel for the main characters, so that the world continues to feel like a mysterious, unexplored place - thus putting us, the viewers, on the same wavelength as the characters in the show.

If everything was explained, the viewers would end up being more focused on the rules of the world rather than the experience of it, which would greatly diminish the show. A large part of why Haibane is so highly regarded in the anime community is because of this mystical, almost religious feeling from watching it, so satisfying our curiosities would make the show worse, in this sense.

(Though, to be honest, most of this is probably unintentional, as the entire show was based off fragments of unfinished Doujinshi by Yoshi/toshi Abe.)

I think One Piece is probably one of the long-runners that is pretty easy to jump into at any point, because the characters are relatively simple overall, but with hidden depths that get explored sometimes. It makes them instantly recognizeable (oh, that's the ladies' man, that's the samurai dude who's super strong, that's the mascot, etc.) and unless you jump into an episode/chapter that's really been built-up to, you're not going to be much out of the loop, much like with sitcoms or police procedural shows, though a bit less episodic.

I kinda disagree with this. One of the major aspects of One Piece is the growth of the protagonist - not just in power levels, but in terms of reputation, what he does, and the symbolic significance of each of his actions - as well as how the world changes around him. If you jump right into the series at, say, the Water 9/Enies Lobby arc:

Spoiler: Spoiler - Enies Lobby

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The significance of Nico Robin's past, as well as the emotions behind the simple act of Luffy destroying the World Government flag, is lost to the reader. Also, the reader would have completely missed Luffy's "beheading", the relations between Zoro and Mihawk, as well as a number of past villains that show up in a significant way later on (Mr. 2 Bon Clay, for instance).

Or, if you jump in after the Marineford Arc:

Spoiler: Spoiler - Marineford Arc

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You would miss pretty much everything about Whitebeard's crew, which is one of the most major events in the One Piece world influenced pretty much every single arc after this. Ace's history would also be unknown, and a lot of the political events that happen afterwords, like the conflict between Aokiji and Akainu.

Compared with something like Bleach or Fairy Tail, where pretty much the only thing that ever really progresses is the protagonist's power level/nakama power and any changes to the world quickly becomes a footnote, One Piece is one of those rare long-running series with an ever-changing world and significant events that continuously ripples through current events, and the reader would miss a lot if they went into the story without reading about prior events.

[cobaltstarfire]

I don't want everything explained in Haibane Reiemi, there's just some things I'm curious about that I think could be explored without breaking the parts that are pretty clearly and intentionally left vague.

[Mx.Silver]

One of the things I realized about Haibane Reimei is that the unexplained parts of the world are intentional.
[...]
(Though, to be honest, most of this is probably unintentional,

But is it intentionally unintentional, or is it merely unintentionally intentional? That's the real mystery


Realistically though it's not worth getting hung up about 'intent'. it can be interesting if you're looking into the process of how the work was made - since just about every element in a narrative work is deliberately included - but it's not terribly relevant to interpretation of the work itself.

[Kato]

I keep trying to get into One Piece as well, but the early episodes of that show are so freaking weird. I don't know if it's something where the show outgrows that or whether it gets better eventually.

Well, it is weird, but it is more than that. There is good reason One Piece is considered the best running Shounen by many, along with the best selling for most of recent times. Oda is just a great author who can mix comedy, drama and action (though, the action does work much better animated. Too bad about the filler)
It's clearly not for everyone but you should really give it another chance (and skip the filler if you watch the anime)

[endoperez]

Boku Dake ga Inai Machi has been awesome, and stays awesome. It's some sort of a thriller / mystery thing with elements of "how do I redo the past to stop an accident" sorta thing going on, and it's done very well. It doesn't feel like anime, since it doesn't really follow any of the genre tropes I'm familiar with.

[Morph Bark]

the most common complaint i've read about naruto is its long stretches of not plot. isn't it like half filler? i'm all kinds of not interested in that genre so i wouldn't take my own word for it, though.

I know the pre-timeskip anime Naruto's filler is very much not plot (save for maybe the first filler episode and the last four that set up Shippuuden), but luckily it's concentrated so it's easy to mark where you can just skip a bunch. In Shippuuden, most of the filler I know of is actually very plot-relevant and simply fills out the parts that the manga didn't cover, such as having more stuff on the other Jinchuuriki and other side-characters.

[Rodin]

I know the pre-timeskip anime Naruto's filler is very much not plot (save for maybe the first filler episode and the last four that set up Shippuuden), but luckily it's concentrated so it's easy to mark where you can just skip a bunch. In Shippuuden, most of the filler I know of is actually very plot-relevant and simply fills out the parts that the manga didn't cover, such as having more stuff on the other Jinchuuriki and other side-characters.

That actually irritated me more. The quasi-canon nature meant that I wanted to watch it to fill in the gaps in my knowledge, but the actual episode quality did not improve from the standard filler nonsense. It got especially bad later on, where they started shoehorning in filler episodes into the main plot so that you couldn't tell if an episode was filler until the bad writing made it apparent.

At least with the standard filler you saw it start and then switched off for a couple months until they got done and could pick the show up again.

[Sith_Happens]

Is there something I'm missing in that comparison that makes Fairy Tail good enough to have gained the popularity to go on for so long?

It's not a matter of "good" so much as "fun." Sometimes you want a heart wrenching story of star crossed love or the horrors of war or whatever, and sometimes you just want to watch a bunch of hot-blooded people punch each other through walls while yelling platitudes about friendship. Fairy Tail delivers consistently well on the latter.

[VariSami]

While at times I hate myself for watching Fairy Tail because it is often horribly written and repetitive, the show has its moments. I have been catching up with the Fairy Tail Zero episodes, and the game between Mavis and Yuri was resolved quite nicely with the exception that it turned out to be more or less meaningless. I would argue that little contest actually showed intelligent writing.

[ex cathedra]

i finally got around to watching neon genesis evangelion + EoE this weekend, and it was pretty good. shinji is a stellar antihero and misato/asuka are great characters of their own. there are a couple other characters that i probably wanted to enjoy, most notably rei, that didn't feel like they received sufficient development or exposition. anyways, it was a good experience, albeit not the best anime i've ever seen.

speaking of the best anime i've ever seen, i finished aria the origination today. it's probably the best anime i've ever seen. so, there's that.

[cobaltstarfire]

(I'm leaving the exclamation points off of the titles cause it's making me crazy to look at these sentences with them in the middle)

We're watching Durarara now, and we're really enjoying it!

I was a little bit worried since I know it was born from the same person who did Baccano, and we were too squeamish for that one. I think it's the only thing I've seen be too much even for the guy.

Anyway I really like the spiraly nature of the story being told, in Durarara the use of music/sound, and the animation too. (I also really like how the recaps are short and done during the intro). We've only watched...I think 3 or 4 episodes? But it's definitely very intriguing/entertaining.

[Fri]

I know, I love durarara.

At first I thought I like baccano more than durarara, but after a while I realized I liked it more than baccano. Very much, in fact.

My friend said that she doesn't really like it, but realizes that if there's an anime specifically made for my taste, it'd be Durarara.

[cobaltstarfire]

Have any of you folks seen Dennou Coil?

I've seen a few gif sets/descriptions of it, and have wanted to check it out eventually (it got licensed and is supposedly due out in the US in June). It looks really neat and I'm thinking of getting it when it comes out.