General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[DoctorFaust]

Spoiler: Macross Delta

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May this comfort you in your loss.

Spoiler: ∆ Ep. 10

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Now that's just uncalled for. Though I am surprised that there weren't any Macross references in the reviews.

Spoiler: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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The bastards killed off the one character I really liked. What is it with Macross and wanting to kill off the awesome pilots leaving you with the crappy ones? Roy in SDFM, Michel in Frontier, Messer here.

Spoiler: ∆ Ep. 10

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In their defence, starting off by having the main character be the best fighter in the squadron wouldn't leave very much room for growth on their part. I think it might also have something to do with the Mami effect.

[BWR]

When have any of the protags in Macross been the best pilots? Good, certainly, but never the best.

And they keep finding new ways to make me dislike Hayate. I was about to cut him some slack for grief then he goes and opens his mouth and once again proves he has no place on the team.

[DoctorFaust]

If anything, this episode made me dislike Messer more. Hayate's never really been portrayed as anything but an impulsive teenager who wears his heart on his sleeve, albeit one with his heart in the right place (which is apparently the sleeve ), so his reactions this episode seemed pretty standard. And frankly, I sincerely doubt I would've reacted any better, so I can sympathize with him.

Spoiler: ∆ Eps. 9,10,+11

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Messer, on the other hand, was shown to be keeping detailed, dated combat logs criticising the other pilots that served no real purpose other than to keep himself distanced from his squad. He hid his Var infection, putting everyone at risk (which also considerably lowered my opinion of Lady M, whoever that is), he pretty much did nothing but insult and demean other pilots (even if it was sometimes warranted), it was revealed that he did even more of the same privately, and now we're supposed to like him because he's dead? I can understand why he did the things he did, and I do give credit to the writers for not making him a one-dimensional jerk, but even with that, he never came across as a particularly likeable person to me.

[BWR]

If anything, this episode made me dislike Messer more. Hayate's never really been portrayed as anything but an impulsive teenager who wears his heart on his sleeve, albeit one with his heart in the right place (which is apparently the sleeve ), so his reactions this episode seemed pretty standard. And frankly, I sincerely doubt I would've reacted any better, so I can sympathize with him.

Spoiler: ∆ Eps. 9,10,+11

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Messer, on the other hand, was shown to be keeping detailed, dated combat logs criticising the other pilots that served no real purpose other than to keep himself distanced from his squad. He hid his Var infection, putting everyone at risk (which also considerably lowered my opinion of Lady M, whoever that is), he pretty much did nothing but insult and demean other pilots (even if it was sometimes warranted), it was revealed that he did even more of the same privately, and now we're supposed to like him because he's dead? I can understand why he did the things he did, and I do give credit to the writers for not making him a one-dimensional jerk, but even with that, he never came across as a particularly likeable person to me.

I'll give you the keeping the Var hidden bit, but apart from that he was by far the most interesting character, by virtue of being awesome and not being an annoying twerp. Hayate just constantly shows he is not suited for the job he was given and is constantly given a pass because he's the protagonist.

[Eldariel]

So Sailor Moon Crystal is actually watchable now. Just in time for the yuri (aka actual YURI thank god Adonai, not the rubbish that passes for yuri in most magical girl shows).

Or maybe the massive improvements in animation quality and direction are all in my head and I've been tricked by the fan bait.

Its so refreshing to have a mahou shoujo series with a bit less 'shoujo' (in the maiden sense) and some actual sexuality. Or even to have art direction that knows how to be really sexy without any focus on breasts at all.

Having minor horror elements while being utterly proof against inaccurate claims of deconstruction doesn't hurt either.

Of course, just as soon as I get complacent thinking the animation will remain solid, this episode happens and we get like a 1000 total different frames in the course of the whole episode with a lot of still images, loops, and a few-more-than-strictly-necessary "Mercury! Mars! Jupiter! Venus! Minna!":s. And a lot of strange poses and frames. While the actual events of the episode were important and kinda awesome, it made me think their animation budget ran out or they had summer trainees draw this one or something.

[DoctorFaust]

So, is anyone here watching Kuma Miko? Because I'm hearing some pretty horrible things about the ending, and I have no idea if they're true or not.

[BWR]

I was a bit disappointed by certain character's actions and reactions in the end. I'm not sure they could count as 'horrible' by any reasonable standard, though. And things could easily change to make those actions look fine if the show was given some more run time.

[cobaltstarfire]

We finished Full Metal Alchemist, I feel a little bit dissatisfied by the ending, but it was a pretty interesting show.

[Mx.Silver]

We finished Full Metal Alchemist, I feel a little bit dissatisfied by the ending, but it was a pretty interesting show.

The ending is a bit on the abrupt side, yes. Could certainly have benefited from a longer denouement (particularly in regards to Wrath). Still, thematically it's solid and personally I have to give it some credit for taking a genuine creative risk (even if it did alienate some people at the time).

[cobaltstarfire]

I really have no idea what I'd have done different, or what I would have preferred to have happened.

Spoiler: fullmetal alchemist

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I think the thing that non-plused me on it actually was both brothers getting to live after the way things played out. It felt cheap or not quite "right" I guess? I'm not even sure what I mean by "right"

The Earth on the other side I'm fine with, even if it there are some things about it that don't make sense or really fit together right to me.

Should I talk about this in spoilers? I'm going to put my thoughts into spoilers just in case...

[Fri]

Well, maybe you now could watch Brotherhood and see how it end in the manga then!

[cobaltstarfire]

Yeah, as soon as it ended I turned to the guy and was like "I wonder how the other one ended!"

We'll see what the guy thinks, he may want a break.


I maintain that Al was one of the closest things to a well grounded character in that show, and I don't think it was always naivete.

[Mx.Silver]

I maintain that Al was one of the closest things to a well grounded character in that show, and I don't think it was always naivete.

As I think I may have said before, Al's thing is more innocence than naivete. More specifically, it's that he lacks the kind of guilt that a lot of the rest of the cast are wrestling with. For example: hen he looks at Ed he sees someone who would risk horrific injury for his sake, but when Ed looks at Al he sees someone he's responsible for and who's life he ruined by failing in that responsibility.
The irony of Al's character is that, while physically he's lost far more than Ed, he's also the less damaged of the two mentally and emotionally. Perhaps this isn't all that surprising: metal doesn't scar so it would stand to reason that it's Ed who's carrying more of them.


To put it another way, Al in some ways lacks the sort of character flaws that a lot of the rest of cast struggle with. Hence why he often acts as a stabilising force or conscience in his relationships with other cast members -- most obviously Ed, but not exclusively.

To be clear: I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just putting into words why I think this is (and also why it's a good thing).

in regards to the ending stuff

Spoiler

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While I can see that, it never felt that way to me simply because, while they do both live, it isn't in the way either of them were hoping for. It is still in keeping with the statement that the sort of unrealistic dreams need to be tempered by reality, but it's not saying that having them in the first place is a mistake. Within that context then this aspect of the ending largely works.

With the Earth, the funny thing about that choice is that, in-universe, it actually makes a fair bit of sense - it just does so in a way that will throw most of the audience. The reason for that is because it relies on calling into question something that basically everyone watching will have dismissed as being not relevant: the fact that alchemy needs to be drawing energy from somewhere if it's not violating entropy. Once you accept that though, then the explanation of the gate is fairly elegant, since we already know that souls can empower alchemy it then follows that the fundamental power source for it is likely to be something similar.
Because that relies on calling into question something the audience has suspended their disbelief on, it's still quite jarring, but in a way that's also something of a strength of it. Because crucially it's not just jarring for the audience, it's also jarring for the characters. Believing things based on faith, and abandoning that belief when confronted with a reality that does not conform to it, is a recurring theme within FMA* (in fact this, and the idea that this process is an inevitable and necessary part of maturing, is arguably the central theme to Ed's character arc) and this revelation does tie-into that fairly well, while also serving as a sort of a example of this for the audience themselves.
It's by no means flawless, but thematically it does make some sense.

From a meta-textual standpoint, it's also interesting as an example of a twist that would likely only occur in adaptive media, but that's probably of much less interest to most people

*probably the best example of this is in why the principle of equivalent exchange is abandoned. This abandonment is necessary to the alternate Earth reveal -- because it sets-up the idea that alchemy's violation of thermodynamics is something that needs an answer -- but most significantly the reason Ed and Al reject is because, as Ed references in the very first episode, it implies a kind of Just World. The kind of just world that, while easy to fall into the trap of assuming is real, does not actually exist, and its that very lack of a just world that calls into question the idea of equivalent exchange as being some sort of grand, unifying principle.

[Kato]

We finished Full Metal Alchemist, I feel a little bit dissatisfied by the ending, but it was a pretty interesting show.

While there are a few diehard fans who disagree I think most people were unhappy with how the first anime ended... It's not that it became bad when it started to change the story from the anime but the ending just got less and less satisfying...
I'd recommend going for Brotherhood, maybe not immediately but in a month or two.



Another note: Recommendations of recent shows to watch? I've really fallen behind but I have much more free time now... Anything especially geared towards comedy that has been airing the last half year or so? If nothing comes up I guess I'll go and give Space Dandy another chance since it seems to remain popular but....

[Fri]

Comedy? What have you watched recently?

I have good record on Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun, literally everyone I know who watched it liked it, no matter what kind of anime watcher they are (shonen fans, shoujo fans, people who only watch pretentious shows, etc), but since it's popular I'm not sure that you haven't watched it.

I'm recently pretty fond of Konosuba, but it's popular as well, so not sure that you haven't watched it.

Another hit among people I know (including myself) is Daily School of Highschool Boys, but once again, not sure if you haven't watched it since it's popular .

[Mx.Silver]

While there are a few diehard fans who disagree I think most people were unhappy with how the first anime ended... It's not that it became bad when it started to change the story from the anime but the ending just got less and less satisfying...
I'd recommend going for Brotherhood, maybe not immediately but in a month or two.

Given what she went on to say about FMA's ending I would be surprised if she finds Brotherhood's to be much of an improvement in that regard; but then they're series of such different types it's pointless getting into tit-for-tat comparisons. Not that this stops it from happening anyway, sadly, but it would be nice not to encourage it.

[cobaltstarfire]

I think I will eventually check Brotherhood out just because I'm curious....is it shorter? I enjoyed this one well enough, but I also feel that it was much longer than it really needed to be in some places (where in others it didn't give enough attention).

Spoiler: the gate

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It's not even the souls empowering things that felt odd about the gate to me, that part works, it's just the way the gate is presented visually and stuff?


I suppose the gate doesn't need to be as weird to me as it's coming off as, it's really just a part of the cosmology and I'm probably over thinking it. It's the way to gate looks and how it's shown, and the grabby hands purple eyes guys that have me scratching my head a bit.

[Mx.Silver]

Brotherhood is a full 13 episodes longer than the first series, and a lot of its time is spent on drawn-out fight scenes (see previous comments re: Brotherhood being more of a standard Shounen Action series).

Spoiler: the gate

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It's not even the souls empowering things that felt odd about the gate to me, that part works, it's just the way the gate is presented visually and stuff?


I suppose the gate doesn't need to be as weird to me as it's coming off as, it's really just a part of the cosmology and I'm probably over thinking it. It's the way to gate looks and how it's shown, and the grabby hands purple eyes guys that have me scratching my head a bit.

Yeah, that's fair. The visual design of it is a little weird. It's similar in Brotherhood iirc, (with more eyeballs involved) so it probably stems from the source material.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well action doesn't bother me tooooo much, I mean I liked Kenshin anyway.


We'll see what happens, probably going to watch other things for at least a month or something.



I think we're going to play catch up with Lovely Muco..it's kind of overly hyper, but it's ok in small doses, and really cute.

[Fri]

Muuuucooo.

If you like it, you might like Chii's daily life as well.

It's about kitten instead of doge.

Similar kind of 5 minutes cute animal silliness episodes.

[Kato]

I think I will eventually check Brotherhood out just because I'm curious....is it shorter? I enjoyed this one well enough, but I also feel that it was much longer than it really needed to be in some places (where in others it didn't give enough attention).

As was said, brotherhood is a great deal longer, cutting some bits at the beginning shorter but in my opinion most of it is essential and I'd call few bits drawn out. Maybe not 100% but 95% felt like very well paced. But then I didn't watch it when it actually aired... but neither will you

Comedy? What have you watched recently?

I have good record on Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun, literally everyone I know who watched it liked it, no matter what kind of anime watcher they are (shonen fans, shoujo fans, people who only watch pretentious shows, etc), but since it's popular I'm not sure that you haven't watched it.

I'm recently pretty fond of Konosuba, but it's popular as well, so not sure that you haven't watched it.

Another hit among people I know (including myself) is Daily School of Highschool Boys, but once again, not sure if you haven't watched it since it's popular .

I've seen and loved Daily Lives of Highschool Boys. But neither of the other two. I think I'll start with Konosuba and then give Nozaki a try, thanks

[Mx.Silver]

As was said, brotherhood is a great deal longer, cutting some bits at the beginning shorter but in my opinion most of it is essential and I'd call few bits drawn out. Maybe not 100% but 95% felt like very well paced.

Oh we're going to have some fun conversations when that series becomes thread relevant

[Hiro Protagonest]

I found a lot of the first half of 2003 to just be irrelevant crap. Brotherhood always felt like what it was doing was important to the characters, if not the plotline itself. I also failed to get attached to any of the homunculi in 2003, so the time devoted to them was pretty much irrelevant to me.

[cobaltstarfire]

Oh we're going to have some fun conversations when that series becomes thread relevant

Should I maybe just start a thread about FMA/Brotherhood when we do start to watch brotherhood? Then you guys can argue all you want without derailing this one.

[Lethologica]

Depends on how much and how often you want to talk about it. A page or so of derailment three times in a year as you go through the series wouldn't exactly destroy this thread.

[DoctorFaust]

nother note: Recommendations of recent shows to watch? I've really fallen behind but I have much more free time now... Anything especially geared towards comedy that has been airing the last half year or so? If nothing comes up I guess I'll go and give Space Dandy another chance since it seems to remain popular but....

Definitely KonoSuba. Oh, and Space Patrol Luluco if you're a fan of Trigger's shows.

[Mx.Silver]

I found a lot of the first half of 2003 to just be irrelevant crap. Brotherhood always felt like what it was doing was important to the characters, if not the plotline itself. I also failed to get attached to any of the homunculi in 2003, so the time devoted to them was pretty much irrelevant to me.

This sort of ties into what I was talking about earlier re: tit-for-tat comparisons. The two series don't even make particularly useful comparisons because even in regards to pacing, the focus is different. You and Kato are of the opinion the the first has pacing problems due to unnecessary episodes, my complaints about Brotherhood's pacing are to do with unnecessary or needlessly long scenes or sequences within episodes (some of which are fairly common for the Shounen Action genre, so if you're fond of that type of show, then you'll probably have an easy time ignoring them).

Really though, if you want to talk FMA and why you don't it rate it that highly then go ahead, and if you're interested I can spend an almost worryingly long amount of time on why I do rate it highly. If you want want to discuss Brotherhood then when the time comes I'm game, heck I've still got over 1k words lying around somewhere about why I don't rate it very highly on the off-chance anyone actually wants to talk about it.
In either case though, just discuss each on its own merits. Turning discussion of either into yet another rendition of the 'which is better?' routine that's dogged conversations about them just because they share source material is about as useless a pursuit as asking the same question of Mahler's 8th symphony and Kamelot's The Black Halo due to them both being based on Faust.

Should I maybe just start a thread about FMA/Brotherhood when we do start to watch brotherhood? Then you guys can argue all you want without derailing this one.

To be honest, this thread's not really been active enough of late that this would even constitute derailment

On that note though, I should probably get back to writing up the list of the series I've watched to completion since I last posted it (dropping the whole 'best/worst' of because it's kind of pointless and just gets in the way of talking about them individual).

[cobaltstarfire]

If you like it, you might like Chii's daily life as well.

There's Chi's Sweet Home on crunchyroll...it has over 100 episodes.

We're definitely going to watch this....we have 4 cats how can we not.

[Fri]

There's Chi's Sweet Home on crunchyroll...it has over 100 episodes.

We're definitely going to watch this....we have 4 cats how can we not.

Yes that's what I meant. Each episodes is only 5-10 minutes, and there's 2 seasons, though I think those 100 episodes includes both .

[Closet_Skeleton]

While there are a few diehard fans who disagree I think most people were unhappy with how the first anime ended... It's not that it became bad when it started to change the story from the anime but the ending just got less and less satisfying...
I'd recommend going for Brotherhood, maybe not immediately but in a month or two.

Brotherhood is more satisfying sure, but its also more Shonen.

Which I guess is kind of the point of tried and tested styles of story telling.

Brotherhood's thematic consistency is also less interesting than the original adaptation's weirdness but strong thematic consistency is so rare that its not really a case of Brotherhood/the manga being more 'normal'. The confusing weirdness is only really interesting because you can make **** up about it easier.

Except of course that really the thematic plot of both series is basically the same. How much the noise/details that differentiate the series affect your experience of the series' difference will be down to what you personally notice.