General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Larkas]

So... No hype whatsoever for the actual release of Ex3?

EX3 PDFs Have All Been Sent!

Not being a backer, I was actually looking forward to other people's opinion on the semi-finalized product!

[Morty]

People have been discussing the backer PDF for the last few pages.

[Sith_Happens]

So which Essence 1 Athletics Charms would each of you say are most useful for exploring ancient ruins (especially First Age ones)?

[Xefas]

So which Essence 1 Athletics Charms would each of you say are most useful for exploring ancient ruins (especially First Age ones)?

Definitely Spider Foot Style. Non-combat-related uses for Athletics Charms pretty much make you better at either running, jumping, balancing, climbing, or lifting/breaking.

Presumably your ruin explorations will not involve a timed hundred-meter dash very often, so I think we can put running aside. Most instances of jumping (say, clearing a chasm full of rusty, used first-age-heroin needles guarding a sarcophagus) can be circumvented by Spider Foot Style via just crawling up and 'round the ceiling and back down. The ability to perfectly cling to anything obviates most needs to balance. And, while the ol' Bend Bars/Lift Gates schtick is a tried-and-true dungeon crawling staple, Strength Increasing Exercise only allows you to raise your Strength by (Essence), even if you have Supernal Athletics, and that one dot of Strength isn't going to let Solar Indiana Jones do much he couldn't already.

Meanwhile, Spider Foot Style lets you take a leisurely stroll through any Prince of Persia or Tomb Raider level you've ever seen, as you fancifully foxtrot across the ceiling, past pressure-plates, trip-wires, dart traps, pitfalls, and malfunctioning capybara guardian automatons.

[Sith_Happens]

Definitely Spider Foot Style.

While you're not wrong, I forgot to mention the part where I can only afford to have at most two Athletics Charms right now on the character I'm asking this for.

[Lord Raziere]

While you're not wrong, I forgot to mention the part where I can only afford to have at most two Athletics Charms right now on the character I'm asking this for.

Well lets see your options:
Graceful Crane Stance- allows you to balance over any dangerous crumbling precipices you might find in the ruins
Increasing Strength Exercise- could be used to move heavy debris aside within said ruins, there could be all sorts things under a big rock.
Lightning Speed- to outrun any trap boulders that drop down from the ceiling and coming rolling towards you to crush you.
Monkey Leap Technique- to leap across said crumbling precipices to the other side, because ancient ruins will always bigger than they logically should and have great cavernous places, also: jump over spike pit traps.

all of these charms have zero prerequisites, and only Essence 1, so choose any two of these and your set.

[Rhyvurg]

So, having just gotten the 3e book...200 pages of Charms. 2e had less than half of that. And 3e doesn't even have all the Excellencies! What they heck were they thinking? This isn't like DnD, where there's a million spells but they're divided by type and class lists, a cleric doesn't have to worry about knowing all the ranger spells, but in Exalted, EVERYONE uses Charms, you'd have to try and be familiar with all of them, especially if you want to ST a game. I don't think I can do 3e, I can't remember all this...

[Sith_Happens]

Well lets see your options:
Graceful Crane Stance- allows you to balance over any dangerous crumbling precipices you might find in the ruins
Increasing Strength Exercise- could be used to move heavy debris aside within said ruins, there could be all sorts things under a big rock.
Lightning Speed- to outrun any trap boulders that drop down from the ceiling and coming rolling towards you to crush you.
Monkey Leap Technique- to leap across said crumbling precipices to the other side, because ancient ruins will always bigger than they logically should and have great cavernous places, also: jump over spike pit traps.

all of these charms have zero prerequisites, and only Essence 1, so choose any two of these and your set.

Yeah, between those I'm currently leaning towards Monkey Leap Technique, can't pick up a second one account of deciding to grab Body-Mending Meditation.

For the same character, thoughts on these Evocations? Particularly whether Passion-Driven Strike costs enough (I'm leaning towards no):

Spoiler: Size Alteration Method

Show

Cost: —; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Reflexive

Keywords: None

Duration: Indefinite

Prerequisite Charms: None

As an psychoreactive weapon, Piercing Heart's most basic function is to shrink and grow according to its wielder's whims. Once per round on the Exalt's turn he may change the direlance's category (Light, Medium, or Heavy) and corresponding traits. Furthermore, for as long as Piercing Heart is Light or Medium it possesses neither the Reaching nor Two-Handed tags. If the Exalt attacks with Piercing Heart he may not activate this Charm until the attack is resolved, therefore it is not possible to gain both the Accuracy bonus of a lighter weapon and the Damage bonus of a heavier one on the same attack.

Spoiler: Passion-Driven Strike

Show

Cost: 3m; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Supplemental

Keywords: Dual

Duration: Instant

Prerequisite Charms: None

The Exalt channels one of his Intimacies through Piercing Heart, propelling it forward on invisible jets of Essence. This Charm adds (Essence + Intimacy) dice to the raw damage of a withering attack, or ([Intimacy]/2, round up) dice to the raw damage of a decisive attack.

[golentan]

So, having just gotten the 3e book...200 pages of Charms. 2e had less than half of that. And 3e doesn't even have all the Excellencies! What they heck were they thinking? This isn't like DnD, where there's a million spells but they're divided by type and class lists, a cleric doesn't have to worry about knowing all the ranger spells, but in Exalted, EVERYONE uses Charms, you'd have to try and be familiar with all of them, especially if you want to ST a game. I don't think I can do 3e, I can't remember all this...

Excellencies are universal and free, and really, just focus on your Supernal when building a character and then look at essence 1 gap fillers.

[Rhyvurg]

Excellencies are universal and free, and really, just focus on your Supernal when building a character and then look at essence 1 gap fillers.

I mean they don't even have a couple pages of general charms adding to the bloat. What is the point of all these charms? The book doesn't even have an index to make looking this stuff up easier. Is every game supposed to wait for 2-3 days for the ST to look up everything the players try to do in a combat scene?

[TheCountAlucard]

Definitely Graceful Crane Stance, then. It's a prerequisite to half the fun stuff.

Monkey Leap Technique or Strength-Increasing Exercise is also worth getting, depending on what you wanna do.

This is why you don't leave a page and come back to it two hours later, Alucard.

Also, Rhyvurg, the index will be in the final version.

[Rater202]

What are mutations like?

[Guancyto]

They're merits, only buyable at chargen at present (although mucking around in the Wyld can change that) and give small but noticeable benefits. (The big one that crossed editions is wings, which carries an attack penalty now, but hey, you can fly.)

It costs the same number of merit points to be a martial artist as it does to be a catgirl.

I don't know if that was intentional or not.

[Rhyvurg]

Also, Rhyvurg, the index will be in the final version.

Seriously? MFW it's going to be even longer...

[The_Snark]

I mean they don't even have a couple pages of general charms adding to the bloat. What is the point of all these charms? The book doesn't even have an index to make looking this stuff up easier. Is every game supposed to wait for 2-3 days for the ST to look up everything the players try to do in a combat scene?

You don't need an encyclopedic knowledge of all Charms to play. Nobody in the group took Survival Charms? Then you don't need to care about Survival Charms, anymore than a cleric needs to worry about ranger spells in D&D.

You ought to have a basic knowledge of the Charms you have. If I were STing I'd want to be familiar with their Charms as well, but if you trust your players that isn't absolutely necessary.

[Rhyvurg]

You don't need an encyclopedic knowledge of all Charms to play. Nobody in the group took Survival Charms? Then you don't need to care about Survival Charms, anymore than a cleric needs to worry about ranger spells in D&D.

You ought to have a basic knowledge of the Charms you have. If I were STing I'd want to be familiar with their Charms as well, but if you trust your players that isn't absolutely necessary.

I get what you're trying to say, but I've been looking through the Charms more, and half of these things would be fine as expansions of existing Charms, they don't need to exist on their own.

[The_Snark]

Won't argue there; I don't object to having lots of Charms, but I wish they'd condensed some of them. It's hard to get enthused about stuff like Food-Gathering Exercise or Shadow Over Day.

[Rhyvurg]

Like, the E5 Archery charm, it costs 1 mote and adds (Essence) to damage. That couldn't have been added as an E5 expansion on something else? A small, cheap damage boost has to have it's own Charm?

[Serafina]

That's a pretty poor example of a charm that should be an expansion charm, because Whispering Prayer of Judgment ends up defining a high-essence archers playstyle.

Note that the charm is Uniform. Which means you can use it on both Withering and Decisive attacks.
A boost of 5 Withering damage isn't small, especially not for 1 mote! That will easily increase your damage by 50%, and the small cost means you'll basically use it all the time.
But the fact that you can add 5 to your Decisive damage is huge. Because now you can fire decisive attacks with notable damage pretty much at-will - even after being reset to base initiative, you'll still deal 8 damage. It also combines extraordinarly well with Blood without Balance and Trance of Unhesitating Speed.

So it'll basically allow you an entirely new playstyle, much more focussed on Decisive attacks. Not a minor bonus at all, and not small enough to be an expansion to another charm.


Now mind you, it can actually be very good practice to reduce the count of charms by merging functions, at the very least for in-play usage and readable character sheets. Merging most of your reflexive defensive charms is great for example, since you'll likely use them at the same time anyway.

[Rhyvurg]

But does any of that warrant it's own charm? Really? It's just an example, there are others.

[Sith_Happens]

If you want to get mad about a Charm tree look no further than Socialize. Possibly the largest in the book and yet they seemingly forgot a fifth of the way through that the ability is supposed to be able to do things other than just Guile and Read Intentions. Not to mention the insanely long prerequisite chains for Charms that really don't deserve to be gated behind ten (yes, ten) others.

[Lanaya]

If you want to get mad about a Charm tree look no further than Socialize. Possibly the largest in the book and yet they seemingly forgot a fifth of the way through that the ability is supposed to be able to do things other than just Guile and Read Intentions.

It is, in the same way that melee is supposed to do things other than kill people and parry attacks. But those additional uses are quite limited in number because killing people and parrying attacks/guile and reading intentions are the primary uses of those abilities, with everything else they can do being a minor side thing.

[Kobold-Bard]

... What is the point of all these charms? ...

Every page dedicated to charms was a page they didn't have to use writing a proper storytelling chapter or giving design guidelines for artifacts/Evocations.

[Ifni]

It is, in the same way that melee is supposed to do things other than kill people and parry attacks. But those additional uses are quite limited in number because killing people and parrying attacks/guile and reading intentions are the primary uses of those abilities, with everything else they can do being a minor side thing.

It is a bit rough coming in from 2e, where Socialize was the "social mass combat" ability and the "know stuff about politics" ability, and then you come into 3e and it says "Clearly your politician/diplomat really really really cares about having a perfect poker face, to the exclusion of all the stuff that actually made Socialize part of their concept in 2e: have a ton of small situational dice-trick Charms to make that better!" At least for me, my reaction was "... no, no she really doesn't". (The character in question always had higher Charisma than Manipulation, and her challenge for quite a long time now has been getting people to believe her when she's telling the truth.)

It would sting less if there were separate sub-trees: you could have the Perfect Poker Face tree and the Understand People's Motivations tree and the Be The Politest Ever tree and the Mean Girl tree and the Turn Into Somebody Else tree (that one might legitimately branch off the Perfect Poker Face tree, but at a relatively early stage). Then you could get "I am good at spreading gossip and rumor" Charms without first having to take "My poker face is the BEST". But instead it's all interlocked, so you often have to take a bunch of Charms that are almost completely unrelated to your concept to get the Charms you want, and often they're not even interesting Charms, they're "My Guile number is now a higher number". (Either that or they're pretty situational - or sometimes both. One Charm only works if you already succeeded on a Read Intentions action on the target while he was talking to someone else - if he then comes over and talks to you, he takes a penalty on his Guile when you roll a second Read Intentions action against him.)

TL;DR: I am not a fan of 3e Socialize; there are Charms I really like but they're buried pretty deeply, behind Charms I find either boring in themselves, or a poor match for the specific concept I want to implement. The good news is that you can take a weed-whacker to the tree and it falls apart very easily into fairly short distinct trees, so if your ST is amenable to serious houseruling then that's an option.

[Rhyvurg]

If you want to get mad about a Charm tree look no further than Socialize. Possibly the largest in the book and yet they seemingly forgot a fifth of the way through that the ability is supposed to be able to do things other than just Guile and Read Intentions. Not to mention the insanely long prerequisite chains for Charms that really don't deserve to be gated behind ten (yes, ten) others.

Personally, I would have liked a Socialize charm that lets you create an ear worm, a psychic meme that spreads through a city subtly influencing behavior, might make me actually care about social combat. If there is one like that and I missed it, disregard.

[Sith_Happens]

It is, in the same way that melee is supposed to do things other than kill people and parry attacks. But those additional uses are quite limited in number because killing people and parrying attacks/guile and reading intentions are the primary uses of those abilities, with everything else they can do being a minor side thing.

Uh, not really? I have no idea what non-fighting uses of Melee you might be talking about, whereas Socialize is supposed to be able to substitute for Presence whenever you're in a formal setting which can come up a lot in quite a few chronicles.

[Lanaya]

Uh, not really? I have no idea what non-fighting uses of Melee you might be talking about, whereas Socialize is supposed to be able to substitute for Presence whenever you're in a formal setting which can come up a lot in quite a few chronicles.

Sure, but that's one narrow use of the ability that becomes redundant if you take the real social skills, while guile and reading intentions are broad, powerful and unique to socialise. In light of that, and in light of the devs choosing not to have a bunch of charms that emphasise using socialise as part of a social influence roll despite clearly being able to write 50+ charms for it, I don't think it's reasonable to say that they forgot about something socialise was supposed to emphasise, as opposed to not choosing not to emphasise that aspect because it was never supposed to be the focus of the ability.

[Sith_Happens]

Hm, idea... About how many motes would you say a point of willpower is worth?

[The_Snark]

In 2e, the generally accepted ratio was ~4 motes to 1 Willpower. That said, regaining Willpower was somewhat easier in 2e (2-die stunts were more commonplace, among other things) so I'm not sure if that holds for the new edition.

[golentan]

Bear in mind you also auto-regen motes at a rate of 5/action in conflict, while most willpower regain is condition dependent. I'd hazard (though it's only a hazard), 5-10m per 1wp based on Spirit Maintaining Maneuver, Spirit Tempering Practice, Unstoppable Magnus Approach, and others. As a general rule, looks like gaining willpower in a non-stressful situation worth either about 5m, or requires a significant moment/initiative/limited use mechanic to recoup.