Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

[eggynack]

Eggy, would you mind adding a section for non-Druid Wild Shapers and tips for such builds?

Eh, I'm trying to hang out in a pretty exclusively druid zone here. I'm pushing the boundaries of the handbook's scope already with stuff like the urban druid entry and the gestalt section. There's no denying that elements of my handbook have broad applicability to other classes with similar abilities, but stepping outside those bounds to elements ultimately unrelated to the druid doesn't seem like the way to go. My big note in either case would probably just be that form adding feats are good.

[Thurbane]

I don't know if this has come up before, but I may have discovered a "new" animal.

Island Ape (EttRoG p.203): huge 20HD animal, CR12. Noteworthy is that it gets fast healing 2. This fast healing is not noted as Ex, Su or otherwise.

Couple of questions:
- Can you wild shape into this?
- If so, do you get the fast healing?

[eggynack]

- Can you wild shape into this?

,
Probably. It's listed as a creature unto itself, and, in spite of its "advanced" label, the fast healing means it's probably not just an instantiated dire ape that happens to have some extra HD (especially because dire apes don't ordinarily have huge advancement at all), and the creature doesn't appear to have any sort of template. That it's maybe a unique creature gives me the most pause, but I can't see anything in either wild shape or alternate form that would stop it on that basis. Might raise questions about familiarity, but that's not necessarily a thing that'd stop this from happening. Wouldn't count on spawning with a plesiosaurus head and neck though.

- If so, do you get the fast healing?

Sure, if you use enhance wild shape. Going by the special ability entry it's an extraordinary ability, and fast healing type stuff is pretty universally quality rather than attack. I don't think there's a reasonable perspective that it's, like, some different kinda HP, as it's sorta listed on the stat block.

So, yeah, I think it does what you'd want. Not that unique in that status though. Plant forms come online by this point, huge ones even, and those often have fast healing or regeneration and a bunch of face stabbing ability. Kinda interesting as the weird high end to big stick based combat. Seems better than a legendary ape in that role.

[Horrid]

OK, wow! Thanks for that! O.O

[eggynack]

Today was the fancy core minionmancy edition of druid handbook updates, for some reason. That means charm animal and command plants, because they're pretty good, and dominate animal, because I suspect people think that spell does more than it actually does (in terms of duration, in particular). I kinda feel like I haven't done enough with core stuff. The focus of my analysis has been mostly on non-core stuff, because those are the spells I haven't internalized so much, if you catch my meaning. Anyway, point is, three new spells.

[bekeleven]

Just browsed through your abberation wild shape section after you mentioned it in another thread. First thing that stands out is you really need to make it clear what monsters are 3.0, because that has a drastic playability impact as you level.

Edit: You also use a lot of tricks that I'd personally tag as questionable interpretations. Perhaps, as somebody experienced in what wild shape can do, I deliberately interpret the power conservatively.

[eggynack]

Just browsed through your abberation wild shape section after you mentioned it in another thread. First thing that stands out is you really need to make it clear what monsters are 3.0, because that has a drastic playability impact as you level.

I dunno that 3.0 books are really so distinct from any arbitrary obscure source, and said obscure sources are delineated somewhat by listing the sources. It's not like they're any less 3.5 legal, y'know?

Edit: You also use a lot of tricks that I'd personally tag as questionable interpretations. Perhaps, as somebody experienced in what wild shape can do, I deliberately interpret the power conservatively.

There a couple that have come into question, but they seem to hold up reasonably to scrutiny, and most seem rather straightforward. I can only really recall nilshai and thoon elder brain getting argued over.

[bekeleven]

You say that the Cloaker Lord's save "Seems to be charisma based," which it isn't. All saves in un-updated 3.0 books are static, and Cloaker Lord isn't in any of the 3.5 errata. So Cloaker Lord has a DC of 16 for all of his abilities. For confirmation, skip forward a few entries to the Ghour demon, who has 12 HD, 20 Con, 11 Cha, and a special attack with a save DC of 13.

For an example of a questionable interpretation, the mindstealer master's create drone takes 24 hours, yet you're listing it as a 20th level form. I don't know how you plan to use an ability of the form when you aren't the form 4 whole hours before it ends. (Meanwhile, my conservative interpretation says that this ability also doesn't work because you lose control of the form when your wild shape ends, even if you "extend" the wild shape by reshaping into the same form. I use the same logic to shut down greater doppleganger, Myconid Sovereign, and other similar forms.)

[eggynack]

You say that the Cloaker Lord's save "Seems to be charisma based," which it isn't. All saves in un-updated 3.0 books are static, and Cloaker Lord isn't in any of the 3.5 errata. So Cloaker Lord has a DC of 16 for all of his abilities. For confirmation, skip forward a few entries to the Ghour demon, who has 12 HD, 20 Con, 11 Cha, and a special attack with a save DC of 13.

Cloaker lord was updated in the Faerun update manual, for whatever that's worth where this issue is concerned. The DC's aren't explicitly mentioned though.

For an example of a questionable interpretation, the mindstealer master's create drone takes 24 hours, yet you're listing it as a 20th level form. I don't know how you plan to use an ability of the form when you aren't the form 4 whole hours before it ends.

Prolly the skin of kaletor. Should maybe mention that explicitly if it's the only method. Kinda obscure, but we're in obscure territory with the monster anyway.

(Meanwhile, my conservative interpretation says that this ability also doesn't work because you lose control of the form when your wild shape ends, even if you "extend" the wild shape by reshaping into the same form. I use the same logic to shut down greater doppleganger, Myconid Sovereign, and other similar forms.)

There's sometimes a strong explicit link between a form and its minions. I don't think there is one in this case though.

[Rerednaw]

Great guide and thanks! One thing...I'd like to give an honorable mention for a Time Dragon. Full concealment and force breath for fighting incorporeals or aging breath. Dragon#359.

Plus group time travel...though I'd recommend leaving that ability alone :)

[eggynack]

One thing...I'd like to give an honorable mention for a Time Dragon. Full concealment and force breath for fighting incorporeals or aging breath. Dragon#359.

Plus group time travel...though I'd recommend leaving that ability alone :)

I wish. Time dragons start at huge. Also, dat HD.

[Keral]

I'm not sure if this is the right place, but seeing as it's druid related I figure you might be able to help me?

I have a question about the share spells bit for the companion. What happens if the companion gets dispelled? Do the shared spells disappear not to return?
I can't find out anything on the net about it and one of my players is saying that the spell isn't actually on the companion but on the druid so it has no effect, which seems delusional to me.

[eggynack]

I have a question about the share spells bit for the companion. What happens if the companion gets dispelled? Do the shared spells disappear not to return?
I can't find out anything on the net about it and one of my players is saying that the spell isn't actually on the companion but on the druid so it has no effect, which seems delusional to me.

Your player seems doubly wrong. First, because the spell is on the companion by any reasonable definition you'd use for that state. It's like a mass whatever, y'know? It's hitting both things. Second, because the spell doesn't actually need to be on the companion. Assuming we're using the targeted dispel mode here, dispel magic says, "each ongoing spell currently in effect on the... creature." Whether or not the spell itself is on the companion, the spell is definitely in effect on the companion. Doing its magic to it and such. As for what happens afterwards, "that spell is dispelled," which means its duration is ended. The area mode meets the second criteria a bit less smoothly, because it demands the animal companion be the subject of the spell in question, but it seems clear that this is the case. The companion is, at the very least, a subject of the spell, so dispelling is what would happen.

[Keral]

Thank you! I thought as much but I'm grateful for the second opinion. Maybe I can make him see sense.

[Endarire]

Druid alignment: NG or LN? I want to be Hathran, meaning I can only do these aligns. I like the notion of casting luminous armor, but I was curious about what I would lose or gain by going LN instead.

[eggynack]

Druid alignment: NG or LN? I want to be Hathran, meaning I can only do these aligns. I like the notion of casting luminous armor, but I was curious about what I would lose or gain by going LN instead.

Neutral has some cool junk associated. Corrupt spells are a big one, and there're a few evil spells running around too, like blackwater tentacle or a few SNA modes (salamanders, mainly). Nightbringer initiate isn't nothing either, though it'd be weird to classify solid replacement level feats as something you're losing. As for what you lose, not a huge amount. The luminous armor thing is very good, as you noted, but a lot of it is more of an all in thing. Lion of talisid, exalted feats, and maybe there's something obscure out there too. Oh, minor note, if you plan to make use of fey ring, the skill checks are dependent on the distance between your alignment and the fey's, so different alignment choices can give easier access to different fey. Not sure if that's a complete list of meaningful differences between good and neutral, but it's a pretty good one, I think. Druids don't go nearly so deep in the alignment choice game as something like a cleric does, even if they also have that whole limitation regarding opposite aligned spells.

[remetagross]

There is also the option of playing a Hellbred character (of Body aspect, preferably) so that even if NG you get to keep [evil] spells if that's really important.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered adding Initiate of Lathander and/or Initiate of Aumanator to your list of recommended feats? Druids have some decent [Fire] spells, and some of their lightning-based spells have "light" in their names (like Call LIGHTning, for example).

[eggynack]

Have you considered adding Initiate of Lathander and/or Initiate of Aumanator to your list of recommended feats? Druids have some decent [Fire] spells, and some of their lightning-based spells have "light" in their names (like Call LIGHTning, for example).

The first requires cleric levels and the latter can use those or paladin levels. Could be plausible otherwise.

[Endarire]

Why do you consider Elementals to be the best Druidic summons?

[Baby Gary]

Why do you consider Elementals to be the best Druidic summons?

I think it has to do with their versatility

[eggynack]

Why do you consider Elementals to be the best Druidic summons?

Beef, mostly. A huge earth elemental has 152 HP, +19 to hit, and 2d10+9 attacks. Something like, say, a dire bear, has 105 HP, still +19 to hit, and 2d4+9 attacks. There's some grappling capacity on the bear side as well, but there's something to be said for just having a really good stat line. And dire bear is about as good as it gets, otherwise, least if you want a combat summons. And they're not exactly weak in the utility department. Earth glide is a sweet ability, push is nice to have, and the DR enhances that meat wall factor somewhat. . The other elementals are less beefy, but they're still top of the line at this spell level, and if you're picking them instead you're necessarily getting some extra utility out of it.

Also of note, huge elementals get that crazy catapult to 16 HD, which is obviously responsible for a lot of the stat stuff, but it also means that some kinda augment summoning effect does more than usual. And they're intelligent too. As I think I note in the handbook, this is something of a special facet of huge elementals. Large elementals are before the crazy HD point and are rather average as a result, and greater elementals don't pick up the same kinda upgrade that the large to huge transition gets, so you're usually getting the best deal out of huge. And, of course, rashemi elemental summoning is excellent.

[ATHATH]

The first requires cleric levels and the latter can use those or paladin levels. Could be plausible otherwise.

While Initiate of Lathander DOES require a Cleric dip (which is already pretty good anyway for the Domains and the Turning Attempts/DMM: Persist shenanigans), you can qualify for Initiate of Amaunator with just the Heretic of the Faith feat, which in turn just requires you to have a patron deity (which Druids can have, right?) and either a code of conduct or the ability to cast divine spells.

A Good Cleric 1/Druid X that took both of those feats (it turns out that if you qualify for Initiate of Amaunator with the Heretic of the Faith feat, you technically don't have to have him as your patron deity (so you can take both feats)) would be able to spontaneously cast:
Cure spells (including Obscure Object and Leomund's Secure Shelter)
SNA spells
[Fire] spells
[Light] spells
Sanctified spells (the spontaneous Sanctified spells for Good Clerics work like spontaneous Cure spells; as such, you can use non-Cleric spell slots to cast them)
Spells with "light" in their names

Quite an impressive list, I must say, and you only lose one spell level and a few feats. It's kind of like a ghetto Favored Soul, except better in pretty much every way.

Even if you don't want to take the Cleric dip, you can still pick up Initiate of Amaunator with only 2 feats.

[eggynack]

While Initiate of Lathander DOES require a Cleric dip (which is already pretty good anyway for the Domains and the Turning Attempts/DMM: Persist shenanigans), you can qualify for Initiate of Amaunator with just the Heretic of the Faith feat, which in turn just requires you to have a patron deity (which Druids can have, right?) and either a code of conduct or the ability to cast divine spells.

Looking at Amaunator, and I'm honestly totally unsure whether the feat obviates the need for the class levels, or if instead those are separate from the overriding or thing. It's probably the former, though the text of the feat, which adds the extra spells to only paladin or cleric lists, may imply the latter. Anyway, assuming the latter, it's interesting, if a bit expensive. I'm looking at the list of druid fire spells, and it's reasonable, though not precisely great. Lotta blasting, as one might expect, a couple BFC's, particularly scalding mud, transmute rock to lava, andmaybe those walls, along with a bit of utility if you squint. So, maybe worth two feats, but probably not excellent. I'll poke at the lathander stuff below, but my initial guess is it's pretty not worth a dip.

Cure spells (including Obscure Object and Leomund's Secure Shelter)

I don't think spontaneous conversion crosses over in that manner. Typically, I think these kinds of things are within the context of the class. Also, I obviously take issue with the cure/obscure thing if this is meant in a serious way.

[Light] spells

I don't think there are many of these that are all that good. The list is way shorter than the one for fire spells, and less dense with spell quality. There's the occasional worthwhile spell here, but probably not enough to make this worth it.

Sanctified spells (the spontaneous Sanctified spells for Good Clerics work like spontaneous Cure spells; as such, you can use non-Cleric spell slots to cast them)

Same as with cure spells.

Spells with "light" in their names

This is a bit more interesting than the cure/secure thing, because the text kinda actively encourages some compound word stuff with daylight, and more interesting than [light] spells in that context because it's a bit better as a list. You get a bit of blasting with call lightning, a bit of healing with cure light wounds and such, and some probably useless in the context of SNA summoning with call of the twilight defender.

Quite an impressive list, I must say, and you only lose one spell level and a few feats. It's kind of like a ghetto Favored Soul, except better in pretty much every way.

Even if you don't want to take the Cleric dip, you can still pick up Initiate of Amaunator with only 2 feats.

It's certainly interesting stuff. I doubt that Lathander is worth it, because you're getting worse spells than Amaunator and at a higher cost, but Amaunator is plausible if it's rules legal. Also, I have to think that the more spontaneous stuff you have, the worse more than that is, because you already have something to ditch trash spells for. It's definitely not a great druid feat, both relatively high cost and not quite as good as the crazier stuff, but it might be a reasonable to good one.

[ATHATH]

Ah, shoot, I didn't see the "Cleric or Paladin 4th" requirement. Nevermind, then.

[eggynack]

Ah, shoot, I didn't see the "Cleric or Paladin 4th" requirement. Nevermind, then.

Oh, wait, yeah. I was totally in the, "This syntax might be ambiguous, and the first two things could be part of the 'or' structure," but the fact that cleric or paladin is its own or clause makes it pretty unambiguous. Glad that one is resolved.

[Endarire]

For summoning Druids starting at L1 who can't/won't take Greenbound, what is your feat advice for summons? I like Ashbound since it's +accuracy and double duration and it's only one feat. Augment Elemental may be useful. Rashemi Elemental Summoning is definitely useful. How useful is Augment Summoning if I must pay full price (2 feats or a Conjurer/Dragon Below Domain Cleric level) for it?

[eggynack]

Prolly ashbound. Summoning is kinda weak early on premised partly on the ridiculously short duration, which is obviously mitigated somewhat by the extension. Rashemi requires a higher level than first, augment elemental only hits at most decent when you get to some of the serious elemental options later on (which would be an issue with rashemi too, if not for the already barring prerequisite problem), and, as you imply, augment is kinda expensive, especially in a wider book context (and doubly so if you're spending a level on it). Really worth looking into a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage in this level range as well, incidentally, if you haven't already. Makes one full round spell a day of 3rd level or less a standard for 500 GP.

[Endarire]

I preserved Tweedledope's Planar Shepherd Handbook on EN World and request a link to it be put in the first post.

Also, Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) for the Dragon Below domain means AugSum with no other feat prereq!

Thankee!

[eggynack]

I preserved Tweedledope's Planar Shepherd Handbook on EN World and request a link to it be put in the first post.

I mean, I might stick it in the planar shepherd description, but I don't really get adding it to the first post. There may be utility to signal boosting, but my goal here was decidedly not to create an arbitrary index of druid stuff.

Also, Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) for the Dragon Below domain means AugSum with no other feat prereq!

Already listed under summoning feats, cause I never did find all that much use for this besides augment.

While I'm here, turns out that in addition to all the other stuff that I've talked about doing and never did, I never actually got around to putting incarnate in the gestalt section, from all the way back on page one. Which is especially dumb, because it turns out Troacctid's list for it was basically just complete, meaning my entry for it is going to look a whole lot like that list with different associated descriptions. Been poking at that for a few days, and it should be up at some point.