Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[tekevil]

Martial training is actually very effective. 2 feats to get a stance and a maneuver. Best choices being Boosts for out of combat if possible.

[Alea]

Another try, this time using Vancian Magic as example. Assuming only core rules, we have a wizard - high flexibility for the pool of spells, but strict for assigning spells to spell slots - and the sorcerer - strict for the pool of spells, but high flexibility for assigning spells to spell slots. An issue a number of people have is that they want to have a class sharing the strengths of both Wizards and Sorcerers. There are at least two ways this issue has been attacked already: The first is the Arcanist, a class which still uses the Vancian Magic as base. The second is Spheres of Power, which is a rewrite of the magic system.

To reduce customer alienation, it would have been a 3PP's only sensible option to create an Arcanist-like class, leaving a Spheres of Power-like rewrite for Paizo only?

I am sorry, I can no longer respond to you. You have surpassed my ability to assume good faith. I never said anything even remotely approaching any of the things you’re claiming I said, or implied, and I see no reason to continue a discussion if my statements are going to be ignored in favor of a strawman version of myself.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm going to continue my usual assumption that everyone posting in this thread is doing so in good faith and with a hope to improve Path of War: Expanded and help Dreamscarred Press to continue being the best 3rd party publisher on the market. Because we're all friends here, right?

Alea is correct in that, largely speaking, Dreamscarred Press can't rewrite the base Pathfinder system. We can work around the system as it stands, by giving easier access to necessary feat taxes (such as through stalker arts, stances or other class features) or providing alternatives that open up new avenues of development for characters (Through new feats like Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting and Polearm Dancer or Archetypes for pre-existing classes). We may not be beholden to the exact strictures of Paizo's design paradigm, but we do have to ensure that what we write is compatible.

EldritchWeaver is correct in that the above does not mean we should restrict ourselves to only publishing material that fits exactly within Pathfinder's existing content.

And I think that at some point there was some miscommunication which complicated the issue.

Rest assured, we intend to satisfy both of these points to the best of our ability, they are in no way mutually exclusive. We can, and have, and will continue to provide new material to Pathfinder players that explores untouched design territory within the system and still functions well with the existing Pathfinder material. We may stumble along the way, but that's why we have open playtests and are constantly learning and exploring within the system.

[Falxu]

I'm kind of curious what exactly makes a stalker "stalker-ish". At level 1 they have
Maneuvers: Actually never going to be defining of a class in contrast to other initiators, due to the ease of swapping disciplines via tradition, trait, archetype, and nice GMs
Ki pool: Okay, so we have the only class to actually get a level 1 ki pool. Still, an ability shared with Monk and Ninja is hardly going to be your iconic feature.
Deadly Strikes: I personally don't really like this ability, but that's personal bias against crit reliance and the idea of "you get more damage, but only if you crit" when crits, pretty much by definition, do stupid damage, strikes me as a bit off
Stalker Art: Several of these are feats. About half of the others are situational at best. About half of the ones remaining after that are either really broken imo (combat precognition) or powerful but not interesting (Critical Edge and Deadly Insight). And, most importantly, these are variable, and therefore can't really be class defining on their own.

Other than that, you get a Rogue Chassis with fewer skill points and class skills.

There are two reasons why I always use Steelfist Commando for my light armor initiators. The first is a personal dislike of Wis based characters/love of Cha based characters. The second is that I just feel Steelfist usually does it better.

I consider Stalker to be rogue-ish... like a ninja, assassin, etc. Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon and especially Veiled Moon all contribute to that. First striking (+20ish to initiative at level 5!) is another defined class attribute (if you enhance it). To be honest, I'm surprised they didn't get some form of "Studied Target", seems it would fit in perfect with the theme of the class.

If you guys are talking purely mechanics, I cannot argue with you. Mechanics in an optional system cannot be debated, since they are optional. Houseruling an optional system (a houserule in itself) seems counter-intuitive to me, but as it stands, my DM has said Killer's Implement cannot be chosen until Stalker 3.

Why shouldn't they get it? Why should they? If we aspire to the former, then why not give everyone d10 hit dies, full BAB and good triple saves.

I've read several posts about people looking into Path of War and their claims at how over-powered the systems are. Combining feats together and made available at level 1 screams that more than anything - not to mention the insanity of taking a 1 level dip to get it all plus more. I assume that beyond making a product for people to enjoy, there is also some business acumen at play wanting to actually sell product to as many people as possible: this will not help draw over the people who had some issues with Path of War in the first place.

I don't have an issue with them keeping it as it is or changing it. I saw something that could be considered "too much" and commented on it, someone mentioned I should bring it up here. I posted something I thought was constructive to help balance the system and keep it more in line with "core/paizo" Pathfinder stuff.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm specifically talking about the initiator classes. It's been stated that, by design, Martial Training has a garbage recovery method.

Martial training is actually very effective. 2 feats to get a stance and a maneuver. Best choices being Boosts for out of combat if possible.

I understand that a character with only Martial Training would have a less effective way than a true initiator to recover methods. But why make it so bad that it seems to be a punishment compared to non-PoW feats? Admittedly, I might overlook something in my analysis. I had no opportunity yet to actually use that material ingame.

Also, how would you spend 3 swifts? You only get 1 per turn, and that also locks out any class ability that uses swifts or any use of Boosts.

I meant to use swifts kinda like charging a battery. You'd use the swift actions of three rounds.

[Vhaidara]

I understand that a character with only Martial Training would have a less effective way than a true initiator to recover methods. But why make it so bad that it seems to be a punishment compared to non-PoW feats? Admittedly, I might overlook something in my analysis. I had no opportunity yet to actually use that material ingame.

Well the full chain is kind of amazing. It can net you fast healing (elemental flux level 3 stance), flight (several stances, I know of the 6th levels for Crane and Seraph), powerful defenses (most counters)

There's also mobility options, like Red Zephyr Strike (hit then move 10ft without provoking), healing options (enduring crane strike), and utility maneuvers (veiled moon ethereal/teleport). Think of them as 1/encounter abilities (it's how i view stalker maneuvers)

[EldritchWeaver]

I am sorry, I can no longer respond to you. You have surpassed my ability to assume good faith. I never said anything even remotely approaching any of the things you’re claiming I said, or implied, and I see no reason to continue a discussion if my statements are going to be ignored in favor of a strawman version of myself.

I'm going to continue my usual assumption that everyone posting in this thread is doing so in good faith and with a hope to improve Path of War: Expanded and help Dreamscarred Press to continue being the best 3rd party publisher on the market. Because we're all friends here, right?

...

And I think that at some point there was some miscommunication which complicated the issue.

Before ending this part of the discussion, I'd like to state that I didn't intend to twist your arguments. I've been using a common technique to demonstrate true understanding: Namely using my own words to restate what I believed to be the correct interpretation. If my restating is close enough to your own intention, then I've succeeded. Obviously somewhere on the roundtrip this fell apart. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings due to this. Hopefully next time this issue can be avoided in the first place.

[Milo v3]

Why shouldn't they get it? Why should they? If we aspire to the former, then why not give everyone d10 hit dies, full BAB and good triple saves.

I've read several posts about people looking into Path of War and their claims at how over-powered the systems are. Combining feats together and made available at level 1 screams that more than anything - not to mention the insanity of taking a 1 level dip to get it all plus more. I assume that beyond making a product for people to enjoy, there is also some business acumen at play wanting to actually sell product to as many people as possible: this will not help draw over the people who had some issues with Path of War in the first place.

This isn't trying to make the Stalker a superpowerful class though. It's trying to make the Stalker at the same level of power as the others. Also, people still haven't described how making things more accessible from first level is actually unbalancing, people in the past have repeatedly suggested that it allowed for dipping which is overpowered, but never provided any actual evidence of dipping being overpowered.

I don't have an issue with them keeping it as it is or changing it. I saw something that could be considered "too much" and commented on it, someone mentioned I should bring it up here. I posted something I thought was constructive to help balance the system and keep it more in line with "core/paizo" Pathfinder stuff.

One thing, sometimes pathfinder's stuff is underpowered compared to the other stuff they have produced. We shouldn't Try to build content that is underpowered simply because Pathfinder made their content in that area underpowered. Part of path of war is ignoring the fact that in pathfinder.... warriors are weak. Another thing that is weak in pathfinder are the monk and rogue classes, which the Stalker emulates in many ways, so why Should the Stalker be inline with the paizo content in this case?

[oyzar]

Can you use the golden lion maneuver Warning Roar while raging?

Seize the opportunity is incredibly powerful when compared to the base pathfinder material. It's so much better than the Kitsune Style capstone it isn't funny and with mythic vital strike. I know you've said you don't factor in mythic, but this sadly means that your material can't be used in campaigns using the mythic rules (at least not safely or without modifications). It's not too hard to get off half a dozen vital strikes a round this way. It could be limited to a couple times per turn or something to make this less of a problem.

[Tuvarkz]

Can you use the golden lion maneuver Warning Roar while raging?

Seize the opportunity is incredibly powerful when compared to the base pathfinder material. It's so much better than the Kitsune Style capstone it isn't funny and with mythic vital strike. I know you've said you don't factor in mythic, but this sadly means that your material can't be used in campaigns using the mythic rules (at least not safely or without modifications). It's not too hard to get off half a dozen vital strikes a round this way. It could be limited to a couple times per turn or something to make this less of a problem.

In the FAQ they answered that you can use maneuvers that require skill checks while roaring, regardless of the skill needed.

[ghanjrho]

Can you use the golden lion maneuver Warning Roar while raging?

Seize the opportunity is incredibly powerful when compared to the base pathfinder material. It's so much better than the Kitsune Style capstone it isn't funny and with mythic vital strike. I know you've said you don't factor in mythic, but this sadly means that your material can't be used in campaigns using the mythic rules (at least not safely or without modifications). It's not too hard to get off half a dozen vital strikes a round this way. It could be limited to a couple times per turn or something to make this less of a problem.

From my understanding, it's a combination of things.
1) Mythic is not very common.
2) Mythic is widely considered to be unbalanced to begin with.
3) Mythic is an optional ruleset.

Put these things together, and you're asking for a nerf to a useful and interesting feat based on it's potential brokenness when combined with an optional, uncommonly used, poorly balanced set of rules. Now, if you feel that this is a problem (as you evidently do), then I suggest houseruling this. Capping the number of Mythic VSs a round from Seize the Opportunity is one option; I might even go so far as to say that the Vital Strikes provided by StO cannot be made Mythic.

Additionally, Kitsune Style as a whole isn't really that good. Kitsune Tricks is probably the best one among them.

[MilleniaAntares]

To add to - and perhaps contradict - my previous feedback on Jailer of the Damned, I do feel that the secondary effect of "better combat maneuvers" doesn't quite seem fitting of the stance's really, really cool name.

The only real idea I have to make it fit the idea of a "jailer" would be having it be the stance version of Binding Fetters and Inescapable Fetters, similar to how Veiled Moon's Stance of the Ether Gate is the stance version of many of the teleportation maneuvers.

[oyzar]

In the FAQ they answered that you can use maneuvers that require skill checks while roaring, regardless of the skill needed.

I can't find what you are referring to. I can only find this, which states exactly the opposite:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=175
Edit: there is also: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=153 How to know which one applies?

[Tuvarkz]

I can't find what you are referring to. I can only find this, which states exactly the opposite:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=175

It was on one of the threads, took me a while to find it. GitP needs a better way to browse the threads than the current one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1456

[oyzar]

It was on one of the threads, took me a while to find it. GitP needs a better way to browse the threads than the current one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1456

Thanks

[Thealtruistorc]

When can we expect to see the style feats officially released? Will they be in their own book separate from the classes a la the PrCs in the first expansion? Also, I'm sort of curious about what the iconic zealot will look like.

I'm not sure if this is legal territory, but will there be rules in place for existing golarion factions to have martial traditions? I envision many of them would have combat styles of their own that would match up with existing disciplines (Hellknights get Black Seraph or Eternal Guardian, Eagle Knights get Iron Tortoise, Red Mantis Assassins get Steel Serpent, etc.)

[PsyBomb]

When can we expect to see the style feats officially released? Will they be in their own book separate from the classes a la the PrCs in the first expansion? Also, I'm sort of curious about what the iconic zealot will look like.

I'm not sure if this is legal territory, but will there be rules in place for existing golarion factions to have martial traditions? I envision many of them would have combat styles of their own that would match up with existing disciplines (Hellknights get Black Seraph or Eternal Guardian, Eagle Knights get Iron Tortoise, Red Mantis Assassins get Steel Serpent, etc.)

I can answer that second one. Golarion and all associated fluff, including countries, deities, and organizations, is non-OGL. We can't touch it with an 11-foot pole. Feel free to do that mapping yourself if you'd like, what you said there does make a lot of sense.

[Vhaidara]

They can't legally touch Golarion in anything that is charged for, IIRC. However, one of my million side projects is the integration of Martial Traditions into Golarion. The ones I had so far are
Scarlet Sentinels: An elite Taldane mercenary company, known for extreme loyalty to each other and to their patrons, made up predominantly (at least at first) of disgraced, disowned, disinherited, or orphaned Taldane nobility
Black Thorn Knights: A recent revival of the defunct Order of the Thorn, the Black Thorn Knights have no official affiliation with the other Hellknight orders. They can most often be found in Mendev, fighting the demons of the Worldwound
Reverants of the Lance: Not a lot of details, but another faction focused near the Worldwound.
The Cagebreakers: Rumor is often rumored (haha) to be a driving force for revolutions across Golarion, including the formation of Andoran and the founding of the Liberty's Edge faction of Pathfinders.

[oyzar]

What is the difference between the scarlet throne maneuver Sanguine Protection and the Riven Hourglass maneuver Temporal Body Adjustment (except for the fact that Temporal Body Adjustment is lower level and can be used on allies and stops a condition completely while Sanguine Protection lasts for a number of rounds)? I guess what I'm asking is, why is Sanguine Protection so verbose in the description of the things it can deal with while Temporal Body Adjustment is so sparse. Are there any conditions Sanguine Protection can stop that Temporal Body Adjustment can't? Can Temporal Body Adjustment stop death effects? Might be a good idea to clear up the wording in Temporal Body Adjustment. Also, can you use Temporal Body Adjustment on your turn if you are dazed or paralyzed (say you didn't have an immediate action left over), essentially regaining your turn?

[Lord_Gareth]

The Cagebreakers: Rumor is often rumored (haha) to be a driving force for revolutions across Golarion, including the formation of Andoran and the founding of the Liberty's Edge faction of Pathfinders.

You may find this relevant: http://dreamscarred.com/path-of-war-...omen-mihi-est/

[Dgrin]

What is the difference between the scarlet throne maneuver Sanguine Protection and the Riven Hourglass maneuver Temporal Body Adjustment (except for the fact that Temporal Body Adjustment is lower level and can be used on allies and stops a condition completely while Sanguine Protection lasts for a number of rounds)? I guess what I'm asking is, why is Sanguine Protection so verbose in the description of the things it can deal with while Temporal Body Adjustment is so sparse. Are there any conditions Sanguine Protection can stop that Temporal Body Adjustment can't? Can Temporal Body Adjustment stop death effects? Might be a good idea to clear up the wording in Temporal Body Adjustment. Also, can you use Temporal Body Adjustment on your turn if you are dazed or paralyzed (say you didn't have an immediate action left over), essentially regaining your turn?

Not all maneuvers are created equal but in that case the difference is that Temporal Body Adjustment stops only one condition while Sanguine Protection can supress a number of conditions if I am reading it correctly. I guess that issue will be clarified in the future errata

[Thealtruistorc]

Are we ever going to get those revisions to steel serpent and primal fury that were mentioned early on in this project? I haven't seen them yet.

Also, for those interested, I'll be running a pathfinder dungeon crawl on roll20 soon for which this content will be allowed. Anyone looking to test the stuff here can do so in the adventure in my sig.

[Forrestfire]

The revisions to Broken Blade, Primal Fury, and Steel Serpent (as well as other errata and tweaks to ​Path of War​ 1) are still planned for after ​Path of War Expanded​ gets out the door. Thankfully, this project ​is​ nearing its conclusion, and as always, we're very thankful for all the feedback we've gotten. We'll be taking a sanity break between Expanded and said errata to work on other projects, but it's still coming.

[Mithril Leaf]

If a Zealot suppresses a condition with the creation augment, and the character who had that condition suppressed is hit with something else that causes it, do they suffer from the condition? Basically does impossible epiphany grant temporary immunity, or just relieve ongoing and existing effects? If the latter, what if there is more than one thing causing a specific condition?

EDIT: Also the Twin Thunder Stance says that you only gain one additional attack per round, but that shouldn't be the case if you actually possess Multiweapon Fighting. Is this intentional?

[Xerlith]

A minor thing I've noticed:

Mark of Censure (Su): At 1st level, the knight disciple gains the ability to censure the actions of evil creatures, protecting his allies from the harm they cause. The paladin can apply a mark of censure to any evil creature he can see as a swift action. This mark lasts for 24 hours or until the creature is slain. While the mark of censure is in effect, the paladin’s allies (other than himself) gain damage reduction equal to the paladin’s initiation modifier against attacks made by the marked creature. At 11th level, the Damage Reduction granted by Mark of Censure becomes equal to double the paladin’s initiation modifier. The knight disciple gains an additional use of Mark of Censure at 4th level and every three levels thereafter.

There is nothing about a number of uses at 1st level, only that they gain additional at 4th and above.

[ErrantX]

Path of War: Expanded has been sent into layout. Final stages and we'll get the rest of it set up for finishing. We're almost done people!

-X

[ATalsen]

Path of War: Expanded has been sent into layout.

Awesome-sause!

Thanks for the update!

[AoiEMT]

1. You guys are awesome!


2. As a war soul, is the base mind blade (or some of the ones on Soulknife Augmented) considered to be part of any weapon groups? Would it be considered thrown when throwing it? Heavy blade as a 2 hander? I imagine this question will come up more often with these new disciplines.

[Captain Morgan]

General discussion point. If you have more than one Path of War character in a party, what sort of house rules or boons would help make a Brawler and a archer Wild Hunter Ranger feel relevant? The Brawler doesn't seem badly off thanks to Pummeling Style, Mutagen, and a great CMB, and the Ranger looks like it should have all right DPR, but the latter seems lacking in other options to make it feel relevant.

Edit: one thing I'm considering is letting the Ranger have a few extra stat points, so that he doesn't have to dump CHA or INT, and can still do Ranger things like Handle Animal and Intimidate while maintaining competitive combat stats. The Brawler I'm currently looking at giving Combat Stamina too, though that won't help out of combat.

[EldritchWeaver]

General discussion point. If you have more than one Path of War character in a party, what sort of house rules or boons would help make a Brawler and a archer Wild Hunter Ranger feel relevant? The Brawler doesn't seem badly off thanks to Pummeling Style, Mutagen, and a great CMB, and the Ranger looks like it should have all right DPR, but the latter seems lacking in other options to make it feel relevant.

This problem has been addressed with this house rule.