Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[Elricaltovilla]

Anyone want to take a swing at this?

It's not an attack action so no, it can't be used with Seize the Opportunity.

[Sho]

Katana Expertise with Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting (and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat) is incredibly strong at lower levels when races or classes are available that grant Katana Proficiency. That is my insight and opinion, anyways. I'm unsure if this has been spoken about before in a previous thread.

I have a level three Tengu (Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2) optimized with Strength 18 (25 Point Buy) and Berserker of the Society that swings his two Katana (2d6+4, 2d6+2) with nice accuracy (+6, going to +8 with Rage). He is getting to essentially swing two greatswords with better critical threat. This is not taking into account any particular Initiator classes either. Combining the above build into possibly a Dervish Defender Warder only ramps it up all the more.

Even taking Tengu out the equation, it is relatively easy to pick up Katana Proficiency with a single one level dip into Samurai or picking up the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat by taking one level in Fighter.

Including Warder into a build path: Fighter 1 -> Fighter 2 -> Scholar 1 -> Scholar 2 -> Warder.
The essential trait chosen would be Practiced Initiator (Warder). Feats chosen in order without planning for any possible prestige classes go as follows:

1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana), Weapon Focus (Katana)
2) Katana Expertise
3) <Insert Needed/Wanted Feat>
4) Scholar grants a Combat Feat (Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting)
5) Dervish Defender grants Two-Weapon Fighting

The stance chosen at fifth level is Battle Dragon's Stance, allowing the character to swing his two katana with no penalty. (2d6 + Strength Modifier, plus 1d6 + Initiator Level.)

Note: This is not a point of tension, more to show what I am enjoying about the upcoming Path of War expanded material. It just feels good. It feels really good. Scholar can be substituted with Rogue for people who do not want to use even more 3rd Party material.

[tekevil]

Virtual size increases don't stack. You'd take only the highest one.

[Vhaidara]

Also,you basically spent 4 feats (proficiency, focus, PTWF and Expertise) on 1d6 damage with each weapon. You could have just gone Weapon Finesse+Deadly Agility and use short swords. Now you're Dex based (since it also applies to Initiative, AC, and Reflex saves. And you could run this as single classed Dervish Defender, giving you much stronger maneuver access and a much stronger level 1-4 (level 1 human DD has all 3 needed feats). And during those levels you use Outer Sphere Stance, which trades 2 points of AC (which you'll have more of because of Dex focus) for 1d6 damage on each attack. Boom, 2d6 damage.

[Sho]

Also,you basically spent 4 feats (proficiency, focus, PTWF and Expertise) on 1d6 damage with each weapon. You could have just gone Weapon Finesse+Deadly Agility and use short swords. Now you're Dex based (since it also applies to Initiative, AC, and Reflex saves. And you could run this as single classed Dervish Defender, giving you much stronger maneuver access and a much stronger level 1-4 (level 1 human DD has all 3 needed feats). And during those levels you use Outer Sphere Stance, which trades 2 points of AC (which you'll have more of because of Dex focus) for 1d6 damage on each attack. Boom, 2d6 damage.

You're right, I could go that route. The example though was what I thought was a good route for a character based upon his/her Strength. For instance, the fifth level build above could work for a warder that wants to wear heavier armor and utilize primarily Strength for damage and then Intelligence for his Armor Class.

Were I starting at any lower level than fifth, I likely would push earlier access into an Initiator class. For example:

If I start at 1st level, I begin as a level one warder.
If I start at 3rd level, I begin as a level one-two class(es), going into warder next with the Practiced Initiator trait.
If I start at 5th level, I begin as a level one-four class(es), going into warder last with the Practiced Initiator trait.

It just depends what level the player begins and and what feat enablers and other class features are currently available. Not to mention, starting as a warder at 3rd and 5th level gives far more higher level maneuvers at the start, especially if the Fighter is substituted as a Myrmidon with the variant archetype. You pick what disciplines you essentially want to cap a ton of 3rd level maneuvers when you turn fifth level as a warder or warlord or whatever. You have slightly fewer maneuvers known, but going into classes that grant the bonus feats makes progression into any [good] prestige class pretty easy afterwards. And you can always dip back into warder or go into an Initiator prestige class. Or the Advanced Study feat.

/edit/
Though I recall now that Dervish Defender only grants Two-Weapon Defense while in light or no armor.

[tekevil]

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f

The Katana only goes to 1d10

Though now that I look at it, the wording on Katana expertise is not in line with similar feats/abilities.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monste...natural-attack
gives a list
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw
Says that you treat yourself as if you were larger.

What does Katana expertise go by when it says step? Is this a size increase? If it's not a virtual size increase then it goes to 1d10. If it is then it goes to 2d6. If it's intended to scale with stances like Primal Warrior stance then maybe change it to say something like "The base damage of the katana becomes [dice]"

[LTwerewolf]

I saw someone ask a question but I don't ever recall seeing the actual answer from one of the devs: are killer's implements and sniper's tool intended to act as prerequisites? It uses the language "gains the benefit of" and not the phrease "gains as a bonus feat" but the two can conceivably mean the same thing, or mean something different. If not for sniper's tools, it doesn;t seem to help as much as intended since you still have to take the feats to qualify for a lot of the other nearly required archer feats. Is there a link to said answer if one was indeed given? We play a 3.P game and the question of "do they interact at all with aptitude weapon" also came up.

[Tuvarkz]

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f

The Katana only goes to 1d10

Though now that I look at it, the wording on Katana expertise is not in line with similar feats/abilities.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monste...natural-attack
gives a list
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw
Says that you treat yourself as if you were larger.

What does Katana expertise go by when it says step? Is this a size increase? If it's not a virtual size increase then it goes to 1d10. If it is then it goes to 2d6. If it's intended to scale with stances like Primal Warrior stance then maybe change it to say something like "The base damage of the katana becomes [dice]"

As I've understood it, 1d8>1d10 only applies when upscaling weapons that are 1d10 at medium already, going into split paths as
1d10>2d8>3d8 and so forth
1d12>2d6>3d6 and like that.
Natural attacks also show: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rul...atural-Attacks
1d8 goes to 2d6
And even if 2d6 goes 2d8, it immediately goes to 4d6 afterwards, just as if a 3d6 should've gone in place of the 2d8.

[tekevil]

According to the FAQ chart from Paizo one size category increase is two steps on the chart (1d8>1d10>2d6) so one step on the chart would be 1d8>1d10.

As I said above the wording for Katana Expertise is a bit off compared to similar abilities. If we assume that it does the same effect as Lead blades then the feat will not stack with stuff like Primal Hunter stance.

[Tuvarkz]

Then yes, it's more likely to be the wording of the feat.

[ghanjrho]

I was about eleven shots in when Andreas asked me to write a debuff initiator. I said to him, "I need more alcohol for this," and immediately got more. Harbinger's first draft - the one shown the morning after, which still forms the core of the class - was written in about two hours with about twenty shots in me.

Harbi's maneuver progression is this way because I copied Warder's from when it was current at the time and then built the class around it instead of making my own. Aside from altering the stance progression, it hasn't changed since, especially in light of the fact that it functions.

Lord_Gareth confirmed for avatar of Cayden Cailen.

[angelpalm]

It's not an attack action so no, it can't be used with Seize the Opportunity.

Oh that sucks, that would have been so good for a warder, as it is I am not sure what are "attack actions" in the first place. Focused shot is an attack you make as a standard action and vital strike is used as the attack action which is as it says a specific form of a standard action(which I thought was exactly the same thing as the attack for focused shot lol) but I am guessing it works somewhat like the cleave feat? This stuff is unnecessary confusing, I wouldn't even know how to explain it to my players lol.

As far as Katana expertise, we have just been making a medium katana do 2d6 as per the die increase for the improved natural weapon chart.

[MilleniaAntares]

Oh that sucks, that would have been so good for a warder, as it is I am not sure what are "attack actions" in the first place. Focused shot is an attack you make as a standard action and vital strike is used as the attack action which is as it says a specific form of a standard action(which I thought was exactly the same thing as the attack for focused shot lol) but I am guessing it works somewhat like the cleave feat? This stuff is unnecessary confusing, I wouldn't even know how to explain it to my players lol.

"Attack action" is something you can take once as a standard action, and something you can do multiple times as part of a full-attack option.

They things you can do an attack action are:
Attacks
Disarm
Sunder
Trip

Note the wording of the latter three: "in place of a melee attack".

This specifically allows you to do such things as an AoO without Seize the Opportunity.

Seize the Opportunity lets you use the other combat maneuvers (Dirty Trick, Grapple, Drag, Bull Rush, etc) as AoOs.

Also note Vital Strike's description: "When you use the attack action"

Which means making a standard action to attack. Any feat with similar wording will also work.

Think of it as like a Final Fantasy battle menu. Let's say your ranged attacker has Vital Strike, Focused Shot, and two Tempest Gale maneuvers. If you decide to use a standard action, here is what part of your menu would look like:

Standard:
- Attack:
-- Basic
-- Vital Strike
- Focused Shot
- Disarming Shot
- Slipstream Strike
- Use a move action

[Maxrim]

I have a question about some Path of War material, and I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but I'm gonna go for it.

Warders and Stalkers can recover maneuvers with a full round action. They both have abilities that trigger "When recovering maneuvers as a full round action, the character may add his Wisdom modifier yada yada" or "When recovering maneuvers as a full round action, the warder sets up a defensive perimeter yada yada". Were these abilities intended to trigger off of either class' recovery method. Should they?

I'm pretty sure you can't recover both class' maneuvers at once, but clarification on that would be nice.

Also, when I recover my Int mod in maneuvers, do those all have to be Warder maneuvers, or can I split them up, recovering what I'd like?

[MilleniaAntares]

You can only perform one maneuver recovery method at once if they both use the same action.

An exception may be a harbinger/whatever who kills a Claimed enemy with Victorious Recovery. They could recover their harbinger maneuvers from the class feature, while using Victorious Recovery to recover the other class's stuff.

[Sho]

Maybe I'm missing it, but a few of the archetypes now available change the initiator modifier for a few martial class (ex.: ordained defender warder changes its initiator modifier from intelligence to wisdom).

Is there an archetype that changes warlord's initiator modifier from charisma to intelligence?

[Elricaltovilla]

Maybe I'm missing it, but a few of the archetypes now available change the initiator modifier for a few martial class (ex.: ordained defender warder changes its initiator modifier from intelligence to wisdom).

Is there an archetype that changes warlord's initiator modifier from charisma to intelligence?

No there is not. Nor is there any official plan to eventually include one. Stat changing archetypes, like all other archetypes, are written by the designers when we feel like there's a place for them both mechanically and thematically.

[Captain Morgan]

I was about eleven shots in when Andreas asked me to write a debuff initiator. I said to him, "I need more alcohol for this," and immediately got more. Harbinger's first draft - the one shown the morning after, which still forms the core of the class - was written in about two hours with about twenty shots in me.

Harbi's maneuver progression is this way because I copied Warder's from when it was current at the time and then built the class around it instead of making my own. Aside from altering the stance progression, it hasn't changed since, especially in light of the fact that it functions.

Hehehe, that's hilarious. I think I just realized part of why it was bothering me. The Harbinger's disciplines include a high percentage of situational maneuvers. Spell stealing, spell stopping, incorporeal catching, mind effecting, illusions... These are all really cool options to have but it's hard to justify spending much on them when you're looking at a smaller number of maneuvers known and readied.

[GilesTheCleric]

I found something confusing. POW_2_FEATS has

Unorthodox Method: You may trade one of your classes disciplines known for a different discipline known of your choice. You gain the new discipline's skill as a class skill.

while PoW:E - Systems has

Discipline Exchanges and You - When joining a martial tradition, you are opening yourself to a whole new world of martial training. When taking the Unorthodox Training trait, you also show that your character has a divergent method from the normal means that a martial character would go. This can cause some confusion to sort through, so we’re going to go over this briefly and make this clearer.

Are these different traits, or the same one?

[Andreaz]

I found something confusing. POW_2_FEATS has



while PoW:E - Systems has



Are these different traits, or the same one?

Those are two separate ways of trading a discipline. One is a trait, the other is a faction. You don't spend anything to join a faction, you just put it in your story and deal with the consequences of that.

[GilesTheCleric]

Those are two separate ways of trading a discipline. One is a trait, the other is a faction. You don't spend anything to join a faction, you just put it in your story and deal with the consequences of that.

I don't understand. They're both called "traits", so they both use up trait slots, right?

[MilleniaAntares]

Unorthodox Training and Unorthodox Method are the same thing. The writer just happened to remember the wrong name.

[LTwerewolf]

I saw someone ask a question but I don't ever recall seeing the actual answer from one of the devs: are killer's implements and sniper's tool intended to act as prerequisites? It uses the language "gains the benefit of" and not the phrease "gains as a bonus feat" but the two can conceivably mean the same thing, or mean something different. If not for sniper's tools, it doesn;t seem to help as much as intended since you still have to take the feats to qualify for a lot of the other nearly required archer feats. Is there a link to said answer if one was indeed given? We play a 3.P game and the question of "do they interact at all with aptitude weapon" also came up.

Don't think this was addressed.

[MilleniaAntares]

You can use those two arts to fulfill prerequisites, but any feats you gain using those arts only apply to the weapons you have designated.

Aptitude Weapon is redundant given the ability to swap out that is already inherent in the arts. But I suppose you could use Aptitude Weapon if it's faster than the swapping.

[EldritchWeaver]

No there is not. Nor is there any official plan to eventually include one. Stat changing archetypes, like all other archetypes, are written by the designers when we feel like there's a place for them both mechanically and thematically.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that way for the warlord?

[Elricaltovilla]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that way for the warlord?

I don't? As far as I know it's simply that no one has felt the urge to try to write one.

[Captain Morgan]

The Warlord also feels very Charisma focused, more so than any other PoW class feels focused on a specific stat. I don't think you could change that without basically just writing a new class, which raises the question of why not just write a new class.

[StrengthofMany]

No there is not. Nor is there any official plan to eventually include one. Stat changing archetypes, like all other archetypes, are written by the designers when we feel like there's a place for them both mechanically and thematically.

Charisma already gets dumped more often than not. Its nice to seed a class that utilizes it extensively beyond the Sorcerer, Bard and Paladin.

[oyzar]

Does the feat Sorcerous Bloodline grant you extra bloodline powers or does it just increase the effective level of those you already have? For example if I have one level in Bloodrager and 3 in Mystic, would I get the 4th level Bloodrager bloodline power?

Is this question answered somewhere already that I haven't seen?

[GilesTheCleric]

@DSP staff: You aren't going to take down the beta docs immediately once the beta is over, right? I'm planning on using a fair amount of this content in an upcoming game.

Edit: Also, to be clear, you can never have more than one stance up at a time by multiclassing? It's only special abilities that say you can have two stances that let you?