Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm still waiting for a DSP/SoP crossover of some kind. Maybe making the Elemental Flux school and Destruction sphere work together somehow.

Your prayers have been answered: DSP's Steelforge has items which support SoP as well.

[Taveena]

Currently under the short descriptions of maneuvers there's one Piercing Thunder maneuver listed as Lighting Rush, and I don't THINK it's meant to be charging someone with a glowstick.

[nevinera]

The Animus Adept has a Martial Glyph:

Deflective Armor: Improves the ally’s natural armor bonus to Armor Class by +2; this bonus improves by +1 every six initiator levels (max of +5).

You cannot enter the class until level 6 - typically this language would mean that it improves to +3 at level 12, +4 at 18, +5 at 24. I'm assuming that was not the intent here. Taken the other way, it ought to improve at initiator level 7, which is the level after the ability can be acquired. Could you clarify the intent of the scaling here?

Elemental Armor needs slight fluff to explain why grappling/tripping/licking the target doesn't result in pain (or maybe it should). Is it apparent - would targets have a reason to know that they might not want to hit that character?

Spirit stride is a free action teleport - should it provoke AoO or not?

Does applying a martial glyph require line of effect? Can a target be the subject of multiple different glyphs? Can one apply more than one glyph in a turn (swift + strike)?

[Nihilarian]

The Animus Adept has a Martial Glyph:



You cannot enter the class until level 6 - typically this language would mean that it improves to +3 at level 12, +4 at 18, +5 at 24. I'm assuming that was not the intent here. Taken the other way, it ought to improve at initiator level 7, which is the level after the ability can be acquired. Could you clarify the intent of the scaling here?

it's +2, +1 for every 6 initiator levels you have. So +3 at 6, +4 at 12, +5 at 18.

[nevinera]

it's +2, +1 for every 6 initiator levels you have. So +3 at 6, +4 at 12, +5 at 18.

Makes sense. I'd suggest wording it differently - that 'for every X levels' is usually used for class levels, and typically indicates that it'll improve X levels after it's acquired. Maybe "It grants an additional +1 bonus for each 6 initiator levels possessed" or something like that?

[nevinera]

Rapid Strike from Riven Hourglass: the short description includes a -2 modifier to both attacks, but the full text does not.

[Andreaz]

Makes sense. I'd suggest wording it differently - that 'for every X levels' is usually used for class levels, and typically indicates that it'll improve X levels after it's acquired. Maybe "It grants an additional +1 bonus for each 6 initiator levels possessed" or something like that?

Hmm. Not seeing it. Generally "every X levels" starts from 1, always. When it starts translated from level 1 it says so. For example "At third level ..... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels after that." is something that scales at levels 3, 7, 11, 14, 18. "At third level.... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels" is 3, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

[nevinera]

Hmm. Not seeing it. Generally "every X levels" starts from 1, always. When it starts translated from level 1 it says so. For example "At third level ..... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels after that." is something that scales at levels 3, 7, 11, 14, 18. "At third level.... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels" is 3, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

I don't recall ever encountering that language. I'm definitely not aware of any other ability that gives a bonus phrased like this one, where the base bonus is scaled up by level as soon as you acquire it - those are usually described in terms like "1/2 the oracle's level (minimum 1) plus their charisma modifier". "2 + 1/6 of the character's initiator level (rounded down)" would be perfectly clear and unambiguous.

[Nihilarian]

I don't recall ever encountering that language.

The old Psychic Warrior's trances all use "thereafter", although oddly, the new trances seem to lack it.

[Taveena]

Is there any chance that the Tempest Gale Trick Blade Skill could have its wording changed from "when using his thrown mind blade or mind bolt" to "when making a ranged attack with a Mind Blade (or equivalent)" so that it functions unambiguously with the Panoply of Blades (which is not strictly speaking a Mind Blade)?

[Powerdork]

I suggested this last thread, but need to suggest it again apparently: there are more class templates in the class templates document than bushi, hussar and privateer, so can that link in the opening post be repositioned and rewritten as a convenience for finding content for new users?

[Nyaa]

Flux' energy resistance negating boosts' progression looks weird. Degrade Resistance (2) ignores 10 points for all attacks in a round and adds damage only to one attack. Assay Resistance (4) ignores 25 points and adds damage only for one attack, but still have listed duration of 1 round. Shatter Resistance (6) and Elemental Breach (8) behave like proper boosts and affect all attacks in a round.

[nevinera]

At level 5, in Elemental Flux, I'll gain access to Elemental Flux Stance. One of the options (fire) says: "Your body is filled with warmth and healing light, granting you fast healing 1, and you glow like a torch, as if under the effect of a light spell."

So basically, after every fight, I should switch to fire and wait N rounds, and I get to full-heal? Not that you guys haven't broken the healing economy a little elsewhere (and my vitalist loves you for it), but were you thinking of the out-of-combat use here? It seems out-of-line, since there's no real disadvantage - the other elements are very solid in-combat, and switching to fire for 10 minutes and sitting in a closet (reading a book by your own light) doesn't hurt anything most of the time.

If out of combat use wasn't the intent, you might try something more active, like "whenever you use a martial strike against a foe of half your hit-dice or greater, you gain __ HP". Just slapping "while in combat" on it would mostly work, but will produce weird scenarios where my best option is to run in circles around a dungeon being chased by the last bad guy while I slowly recover my health.

[Andreaz]

At level 5, in Elemental Flux, I'll gain access to Elemental Flux Stance. One of the options (fire) says: "Your body is filled with warmth and healing light, granting you fast healing 1, and you glow like a torch, as if under the effect of a light spell."

So basically, after every fight, I should switch to fire and wait N rounds, and I get to full-heal? Not that you guys haven't broken the healing economy a little elsewhere (and my vitalist loves you for it), but were you thinking of the out-of-combat use here? It seems out-of-line, since there's no real disadvantage - the other elements are very solid in-combat, and switching to fire for 10 minutes and sitting in a closet (reading a book by your own light) doesn't hurt anything most of the time.

If out of combat use wasn't the intent, you might try something more active, like "whenever you use a martial strike against a foe of half your hit-dice or greater, you gain __ HP". Just slapping "while in combat" on it would mostly work, but will produce weird scenarios where my best option is to run in circles around a dungeon being chased by the last bad guy while I slowly recover my health.

It's not out of line at all. All it does is skimp a few gp from the CLW wand you didn't need to use. The real power of the stance is the added damage. Kill the enemy a round earlier and lo, you didn't need to healp the 30 damage he'd deal you!

And "sit in a closet for 10 minutes" is single-encounter mentality right there. Ever explored a dungeon after stealth is gone to hell? Ever been in a chase? Any sort of arena? You don't want (or can't) to wait a single round.
At higher levels it only gets less feasible. There's just too many hitpoints for you to heal 1 at a time, and soon you start using stances like Enter the Vortex and Silvered Mirror Stance and gods, God of the Hourglass... Fire elemental flux stance is reduced to a "ok, since we're all stopping I'm gonna sleep glowing" stance.

[nevinera]

It's not out of line at all. All it does is skimp a few gp from the CLW wand you didn't need to use. The real power of the stance is the added damage. Kill the enemy a round earlier and lo, you didn't need to healp the 30 damage he'd deal you!

And "sit in a closet for 10 minutes" is single-encounter mentality right there. Ever explored a dungeon after stealth is gone to hell? Ever been in a chase? Any sort of arena? You don't want (or can't) to wait a single round.
At higher levels it only gets less feasible. There's just too many hitpoints for you to heal 1 at a time, and soon you start using stances like Enter the Vortex and Silvered Mirror Stance and gods, God of the Hourglass... Fire elemental flux stance is reduced to a "ok, since we're all stopping I'm gonna sleep glowing" stance.

I don't intend to argue any points here (though you are of course free to counter mine). I am making suggestions and expressing opinions for the developers to read - they'll make their own decisions about whether any point I am making is valid, and if they disagree, I'll assume it's because they're better at game design than I am.

Edit: less pissy.

[nevinera]

Shattered Glass Smite doesn't have any language about saving or dodging the glass, which is unusual for this sort of area attack. It creates the odd situation where I might want to hit (for example) a *door* with the strike in order to land unavoidable damage on a high-reflexes/AC target, or to deal with a swarm.

[Taveena]

I don't actually care about your opinion, nor am I interested in arguing any point here. I am making suggestions and expressing opinions for the developers to read - they'll make their own decisions about whether any point I am making is valid, and if they disagree, I'll assume it's because they're better at game design than I am.

Having a forum fight with random dudes hasn't entertained me since I was 10.

Try to avoid double-posting, please. Keep in mind that Silver Crane and Unquiet Grave also provide unlimited out-of-combat healing, so there is quite a lot of precedent.

[nevinera]

Try to avoid double-posting, please. Keep in mind that Silver Crane and Unquiet Grave also provide unlimited out-of-combat healing, so there is quite a lot of precedent.

Apologies, I'll edit from now on. I'm just noting things that seem strange as I'm building/optimizing a character - I've not built with SC or UG yet. Since OOC healing clearly isn't relevant to their design goals, I won't worry about it any further. I've been erring on the side of making simple criticisms rather than researching and explaining, assuming that they'd prefer to just get a hit-list of 'criticisms' to traverse (and presumably ignore most of) over having to parse through discussions and explanations.

I'll edit the antagonistic post from before my coffee too, sorry about that.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered mystic level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), the mystic can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one she already knows.

Animus adept doesn't mention anything about retraining maneuvers - that seems like a feature of being an initiator to me, and AA levels stack with Mystic levels - I wasn't sure if you intended AA to receive no retraining at all. (Battle Templar does, for example)

[Taveena]

The Nightmare's Frightful Claim and Soul Hunter's Soul Claiming are not the Dark Claim class feature, and as a result are not modified by Grasp of Darkness (which specifies Dark Claim class feature rather than just the 'ability to Claim creatures' specified by others.)

[Falco1029]

Any chance of an Archetype for Sorcerers (or, you know, I guess, other full casters), or is martial training and maybe leading eventually into Bladecaster the only option you're planning to have for full casters wanting to do a bit of Initiating?

[Forrestfire]

As far as we know in this thread, there aren't plans for any full casters getting archetypes. Martial training, multiclassing, and the initiator/caster PrCs are what we've got. They're still pretty decent options, at least.

[Falco1029]

That's a shame. Bladecaster is alright but like anything else with lost levels and/or multiclassing, it hits the Sorcerer a bit harder than the prepared casters because of the silly level behind progression.

[amberlink]

For something like Silver Crane, where unlike quite a few other disciplines it doesn't mention requirements to use discipline weapons or a specific type of weapon, does it mostly not matter if you don't use one of their discipline weapons? Question also applies to many of the newer disciplines listed

[Milo v3]

For something like Silver Crane, where unlike quite a few other disciplines it doesn't mention requirements to use discipline weapons or a specific type of weapon, does it mostly not matter if you don't use one of their discipline weapons? Question also applies to many of the newer disciplines listed

The difference between using a discipline weapon or not is a bonus to the DC's of your maneuvers iirc.

[amberlink]

The difference between using a discipline weapon or not is a bonus to the DC's of your maneuvers iirc.

Oh thanks, never even noticed that line before

[MilleniaAntares]

Well, my level 13 elf steelfist commando warlord (and rubato gestalt) did pretty well for herself to end the match.

On the last turn, the oxfolk warder turned large and used Cornered Frenzy Strike to attack all six of the minions of a boss within her 10 foot reach.

Then my elf went, and she used Dual Boost to combine Night's Knife and Blend With the Night, while in Hooded Killer's Stance. Then she used Crashing Wake to basically walk around the oxfolk and slaughter all the minions (who had only taken about 11 damage) with non-lethal attacks that dealt 77 to 90 damage.

Then she walked up to the boss, still invisible, and called for her surrender.

The boss, knocked down from her humongous mushroom form into her humanoid phase, just utterly surrendered.

Thank you DSP! :D

[Greenish]

Was it ever mentioned which version of Hide in Plain Sight a War Soul can get by selecting the Veiled Moon Mystery blade skill?

[Shackel]

I'd like to chip in on the Elemental Flux Stance talks: I also think that Fire is... underwhelming, to say the least. Compared to +2 untyped bonus to saves, getting DR 5/adamantine, and Air's nigh-extreme +4 dodge AC and +4 untyped to initiative, fast healing 1 just feels like it's tacked on. The perma-light is even neutral, since that can actually make using Fire an outright negative choice(like if you need to sneak around, got darkness cast near so being on fire makes you a glowing target, or want to get the drop on someone with your buffs on).

And it's on top of one of the most commonly resisted elements?

In combat, Earth and Air blow it clean out of the water. Earth mitigates 5 weapon damage each hit while Fire mitigates 1 damage each round. Air gets your turn out faster with +4 to init and its AC bonus is going to outright a lot more weapon/attack damage than Fire.

The out of combat use is alright for saving money at low levels, but it also has an unfortunate side-effect of feeling cheesy when you're hurt after a fight and just decide to sit around on fire for a couple minutes. Not to mention that once you start hitting even 75HP, sitting around for 5+ minutes while you sit around on fire can become a waste of time compared to a few taps with an Infernal Healing or CLW wand. Meaning, in time, the only reason you'd ever want to use Fire is for fire resistance.

DR 5/adamantine, +2 to saves and +4 dodge AC(and +4 to initiative) just seem so much better than fast healing 2. I don't think Fire's bonus needs to be up there with Air's(which I dare say might be a little too strong on top of +2d6 not-so-commonly resisted damage), but it should at least be a choice versus mitigating 5 damage from every hit. Even fast healing 2 might help with that.

[Lord_Gareth]

The Nightmare's Frightful Claim and Soul Hunter's Soul Claiming are not the Dark Claim class feature, and as a result are not modified by Grasp of Darkness (which specifies Dark Claim class feature rather than just the 'ability to Claim creatures' specified by others.)

This is purposeful.

[Taveena]

This is purposeful.

Do you mind if I ask why it's different from the others? Is a Soul Hunter or Nightmare getting stronger recovery a balance issue, or is multi-claiming a potential problem with them somehow?