Dreamscarred Press Presents: "Arcforge: Technology Expanded"

[Ssalarn]

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Edit:
So uh... FIRST question!
Give an Agile mech Arms.
What happens when slots are negative?

I'm adding a "minimum 0" clause to the arms ability. Other than that, everything should work out. Any slotted weapons are unavailable while wielding the weapon, but you can make attacks as normal for your BAB with the wielded weapon.

[Kiton2]

Looks like I somehow missed the moment Aegis got infinite customization pool.

I know right? It was a glorious moment!
Seriously though, it seems the complaints are that it has access to too many things at once, rather than being able to do all of them effectively. I wouldn't be surprised if similar complaints eventually happen with the vigilante really. But that's why my suggestion was at such; "limited system access" for an archetype rather than "you have less points to still be a veilweaving initiator psionic mech pilot aegis".


Ssalarn: The crafting for mechs and vehicles is still listed as 1 week per 1000gp. This effectively knocks people out of a campaign. Perhaps there can be a way to add manpower to the equation, so that rather than magic-item-speeds, you just need to find teams of workers to get a proper rate? "It's huge, so it's slow if you're alone, so go find a bunch of peasants that are good with their hands and hope there's not much laws against child labor in the kingdom" or something?

Next, what happens when one of several mechs (say, a multiclassed reactor knight who picked up mech pilot to recover his piloting levels) gets cybernetic integration, and not the other? Can this combine with the ejection system, perhaps, so that if you have a second mech 'stowed away' (or rather, being used as the interface/core of the other mech) when you eject you're left in the smaller suit? Doesn't need to go Dai-Gurren levels of russian nesting doll, but surely you can imagine a smaller scale case of Dendrobium Orchis.


I'll suggest the "opposite" path as well: someone in a much larger mech than their body could have one of those Mobile-Trace, Linear-Frame or other 'direct motion' type cockpits. That would be what allows monks and the like to do their thing without trouble.

[Ssalarn]

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Ssalarn: The crafting for mechs and vehicles is still listed as 1 week per 1000gp. This effectively knocks people out of a campaign. Perhaps there can be a way to add manpower to the equation, so that rather than magic-item-speeds, you just need to find teams of workers to get a proper rate? "It's huge, so it's slow if you're alone, so go find a bunch of peasants that are good with their hands and hope there's not much laws against child labor in the kingdom" or something?

The crafting times are on the hot list for getting addressed. Thanks for the suggestions!

Next, what happens when one of several mechs (say, a multiclassed reactor knight who picked up mech pilot to recover his piloting levels) gets cybernetic integration, and not the other? Can this combine with the ejection system, perhaps, so that if you have a second mech 'stowed away' (or rather, being used as the interface/core of the other mech) when you eject you're left in the smaller suit? Doesn't need to go Dai-Gurren levels of russian nesting doll, but surely you can imagine a smaller scale case of Dendrobium Orchis.

The "Russian nesting dolls" mechanic has been requested a few times, and I'm definitely looking into implementing it. Related, I'll also add a rules section about "mechs from multiple sources" so that interactions between mech granting mechanics from multiple sources can be quickly and easily identified.

I'll suggest the "opposite" path as well: someone in a much larger mech than their body could have one of those Mobile-Trace, Linear-Frame or other 'direct motion' type cockpits. That would be what allows monks and the like to do their thing without trouble.

Heard and noted.

[Prime32]

And this is something that's come up on the design end. What does adding a mech to an aegis do that the aegis couldn't already do? Surprisingly little, mechanically. It ends up being either about fluff, or almost completely rewriting the class into a variant mech pilot with shifting customizations. I definitely get that the aegis is a beloved class, and I share that feeling, but I want to make sure that as much page space as posible is being dedicated to doing new stuff, instead of the same stuff in a slightly different way. Doesn't mean aegis is completely off the table, just that it's been kicked back to the drawing board until such a time as a more interesting and viable implementation is cooked up. If we can't come up with something that's really cool and unique, it doesn't make sense to fill pages with mediocre design.

There will be a way for mechs to combine, right? If aegii had a way to get in on the action, that would be neat. But I agree that there's not much more needed, except maybe a clarification for whether you can summon an astral suit around your mech.

So, during Paizo's initial playtest for the Vigilante, I was pretty "meh" about the whole thing, but I think they actually did a pretty badass job with the class that went to print (the archetypes were more of a mixed bag, but hopefully we can help with that). I think the Vigilante is going to be a great addition to Arcforge, giving me a relatively fresh class chassis that hasn't been tinkered with by 3pp as much, and I think getting to go full blown Iron Man, up to and including mentally controlling your "suit" while smiling for the cameras in your civilian identity, is going to be something players are going to love.

Two questions:

• Have you seen Big O? Because it's literally Batman: The Animated Series plus giant robots.
• Have you seen Code Geass? Because its protagonist is the lovechild of V and Char Aznable.

I gave this concept some thought a while back, and abilities included "your mech does not take a size penalty on Stealth checks", "your mech is always hidden somewhere nearby when you need it" and "if you take the Safe House talent it gains extra space sufficient to store your mech". Also talents for adding autorepair facilities to your Safe House, and for having access to secret tunnels which let you and your mech travel about discreetly.

[Ssalarn]

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Two questions:

• Have you seen Big O? Because it's literally Batman: The Animated Series plus giant robots.
• Have you seen Code Geass? Because its protagonist is the lovechild of V and Char Aznable.

Yes, and yes

I gave this concept some thought a while back, and abilities included "your mech does not take a size penalty on Stealth checks", "your mech is always hidden somewhere nearby when you need it" and "if you take the Safe House talent it gains extra space sufficient to store your mech". Also talents for adding autorepair facilities to your Safe House, and for having access to secret tunnels which let you and your mech travel about discreetly.

Stop spoiling the surprises man!!!!!!

But yeah, you and I are coming at this from similar directions.

[tekevil]

I'm pretty sure that an Aegis that uses Suit Customization on a mech instead of Astral Suit would be disastrous. At best I think you'd get an Aegis who loses Astral Suit completely and instead gets a mech with shifting enhancments. The other class features would likely do similar things to what they do now, except with mech enhancements.

If what you want is some sort of Psychic Newtype pilot then another class, maybe the Wilder or even a second Psychic Warrior archetype, would make much more sense. Considering how often Newtype stuff goes wrong or ends up difficult to control, Wilder may make the most sense.

[Prime32]

Speaking of Newtypes, did I ever post that funnel proposal?

Spoiler

Show

Mech Enhancements
Drone Control System: The mech includes a number of detachable attack drones, which function as a second mech of equal level with the special "Drone Swarm" body type below. While piloting your mech you may also control these drones by expending your own actions, as long as they are within 100ft +10ft/level. Determine the drones' stats as if you were piloting them yourself, except that damage dealt to the drones is never transferred to you.
The mech must be at least 9^th level and at least Large size to take this enhancement.

Drone Swarm
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed Fly 20ft (average maneuverability); Attack Troop (1d6, does not harm allies) Melee Reach 5ft; Ability Scores Dex +2; Bonus Hit points: 0hp; Simplified Structure Drones do not possess hardness or mech enhancements, but regain triple the normal hit points when repaired with the Craft skill. Troop Subtype See below; Weapon Affinity N/A; Weapon Slots N/A
Special: Starting at 5^th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the drones gain +1d6 damage on their troop attack or increase their reach by +5ft. As a swift action (or as an immediate action by expending their psionic focus) the pilot may reallocate these bonuses by ordering the drones into a different formation.
In addition, at every 5^th level the drones' fly speed increases by +10ft and their maneuverability increases by one step.

Feats
Drone Expert (Combat)
Prerequisite: Alertness feat or psionic subtype
Benefit: When piloting a mech with the Drone Control System enhancement, your drones' troop attack deals additional damage equal to half your Dexterity modifier, rounded down (minimum +1). You are immune to the effects of your drones' Chaos of Combat ability.

Drone Master (Combat)
Prerequisite: Drone Expert
Benefit: You may command your drones to perform a troop attack as a standard action. Whenever you take an action to move to move, run or charge, you may choose for both your mech and your drones to perform that action.

Technological Items
Drone Barrier Generators
A set of drones equipped with these generators gains a +2 shield bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action (or as an immediate action by expending his psionic focus) the drones' pilot may order them to combine their barriers into a solid wall. In this formation the drones lose their normal attacks, but provide total cover against attacks passing through their space. This effect lasts until the next time the drones' pilot orders them to change formation.

[Kiton2]

"your mech is always hidden somewhere nearby when you need it"

SRW's Gilliam Yaeger pulls a masterful one of these; at one point enemy forces turn out to have infiltrated a castle on foot, and had managed - of course - to set up a bunch of small bombs unnoticed.

This guy proceeds to summon his Gespenst. He'd snuck THAT into the party!

[Milo v3]

Hmmmm.... Gonna go with "whoops". Can you give me a page/section reference so I can look into that? I'm guessing it's an artifact of a rules set that was changed that I overlooked.

It's in the Additional Weapon Slot mech enchancement: "The mech gains an additional weapon slot. This enhancement can be taken multiple times, but the mech cannot attack with more than 2 equipped weapons in a given round."

Also, while the weapon slot mechanics do have the -5 if you attack with non-slotted weapons, like natural attacks have with manufactured weapons, the weapon slot mechanics never actually say full-attacks work like natural attacks.

[MilleniaAntares]

So, the new Arms enhancement....

Firstly, I'm not sure if it allows wielding more than one weapon, or non-weapons (like shields that don't have a shield bash). Or if such a restriction is actually intended.

Secondly, I think the wording about losing slots when wielding something in the hands is a bit funky.

Here is my suggestion, feel free to improve upon it:

The mech gains a pair of fully integrated mechanical arms which allow it to wield appropriately sized objects - such as weapons, shields, and the like - without slotting them first. A mech may make as many attacks with weapons as their pilot's base attack bonus would normally allow. While wielding objects in such a manner, two of the mech's slots are disabled; any weapons currently occupying slots that would be made unavailable cannot be used while the weapon is in hand.

I just hope that overly stringent DMs will allow you to pick up with people with said arms.

[Ssalarn]

So, the new Arms enhancement....

Firstly, I'm not sure if it allows wielding more than one weapon, or non-weapons (like shields that don't have a shield bash). Or if such a restriction is actually intended.

Secondly, I think the wording about losing slots when wielding something in the hands is a bit funky.

Here is my suggestion, feel free to improve upon it:



I just hope that overly stringent DMs will allow you to pick up with people with said arms.

Great suggestion on tidying up the rules block! The Arms enhancement is intended to basically allow you to wield weapons in the same manner you could of you weren't in a mech, so I'll take your suggestion on phrasing.

It's in the Additional Weapon Slot mech enchancement: "The mech gains an additional weapon slot. This enhancement can be taken multiple times, but the mech cannot attack with more than 2 equipped weapons in a given round."

Also, while the weapon slot mechanics do have the -5 if you attack with non-slotted weapons, like natural attacks have with manufactured weapons, the weapon slot mechanics never actually say full-attacks work like natural attacks.

Perfect, thank you! I'll get it fixed.

[Kiton2]

I'm adding a "minimum 0" clause to the arms ability. Other than that, everything should work out. Any slotted weapons are unavailable while wielding the weapon, but you can make attacks as normal for your BAB with the wielded weapon.

So even small characters want to grab cybernetic integration for the Agile model then. It's more efficient than getting two enhancements.

Will need a bit more time to see how it compares to simply giving a biped flight, then. Although be aware that it does mean the biped's starting with the equivalent of 4 slots to the quad's 2. Or are the two on the biped negated by the arms?

[MilleniaAntares]

Cybernetic Integration does not state how long it takes to convert the mech to a suit of armor... a standard action? Same with the retraining thing - does it go back when you convert it back into a mech?

If it's really a short amount of time (<1 hour), I'd recommend not letting them retrain the size-increasing enhancements.

Beyond that, though, I'd also recommend creating magic items to also let you tote your mech around. Folding plate is a thing, after all... and I believe Tony Stark carried his mech around in a briefcase in one of the Iron Man movies, right...?

[khadgar567]

Cybernetic Integration does not state how long it takes to convert the mech to a suit of armor... a standard action? Same with the retraining thing - does it go back when you convert it back into a mech?

If it's really a short amount of time (<1 hour), I'd recommend not letting them retrain the size-increasing enhancements.

Beyond that, though, I'd also recommend creating magic items to also let you tote your mech around. Folding plate is a thing, after all... and I believe Tony Stark carried his mech around in a briefcase in one of the Iron Man movies, right...?

hell he even store in his body then create Psychoactive Skin version of it via void based metals

[Nyaa]

Why does Mech Piloting [Psionic] cost two feats more than Animal Ally while Technological Companion Options just replace companion with vehicle?
Does mecha hardness apply to incoming damage before it's split, or only to mecha half? IMO it should be stated in rules.

Mechs are not creatures
Much like objects and vehicles

Does it mean they can be repaired with mending and astral repair?

[tekevil]

He mentioned earlier that he intends to reduce the number of feats spent.

[EldritchWeaver]

I don't know, I kind of like the idea of wild biomecha roaming freely through the woods until nature's power calls them to aid one of its servants in stopping poachers preying on the helpless biomecha populace....

This reminds me of a reverse-Pokemon campaign.

[Ssalarn]

Cybernetic Integration does not state how long it takes to convert the mech to a suit of armor... a standard action? Same with the retraining thing - does it go back when you convert it back into a mech?

It's actually intended as a permanent restructuring of your mech, like picking a new body type. I can see I'll need to revisit the verbage and clean things up.

If it's really a short amount of time (<1 hour), I'd recommend not letting them retrain the size-increasing enhancements.

Beyond that, though, I'd also recommend creating magic items to also let you tote your mech around. Folding plate is a thing, after all... and I believe Tony Stark carried his mech around in a briefcase in one of the Iron Man movies, right...?

Noted and in the works.

Why does Mech Piloting [Psionic] cost two feats more than Animal Ally while Technological Companion Options just replace companion with vehicle?

I mentioned it in the context of the psicore earlier, but I'm working on hacking those feats way down.

Does it mean they can be repaired with mending and astral repair?

Mending doesn't work on creatures, and so won't repair a mech. As I understand it, Astral Repair is similarly limited. I will be adding more powers and options for repairing mechs, however.

This reminds me of a reverse-Pokemon campaign.

Inorite? May have to do that as a one-shot.

[Kiton2]

We've needed the repair options for a good while now; It would be helpful even to playtesting to apply such changes sooner than later. Right now anyone with a functioning mech is probably thanks to houserules.

[Nyaa]

Mending doesn't work on creatures, and so won't repair a mech.

Huh. Mech Bodies, third paragraph: 'Mechs are not creatures, and do not gain feats or skill points of their own.'

[Ssalarn]

Huh. Mech Bodies, third paragraph: 'Mechs are not creatures, and do not gain feats or skill points of their own.'

I'll clean that up. Long story short though, mending doesn't work on constructs, and so shouldn't work on mechs. It's outside the scope of the spell's intended effect.

Kiton2 does make a very good point about the necessity of those repair spells, so I'm working on integrating them now.

Also, sorry about the delays on additional material. Some very good points have been made about adjusting the phrasing or function of current rules elements, and I felt like reviewing and integrating those was more important than pushing out more material that's going to sit on top of those elements.

[Kiton2]

Multiple Mechs, Extra enhancement feat.
It's probably fine to let them, but should probably get some clarification when you make the sidebar or whatever.

[MilleniaAntares]

So even small characters want to grab cybernetic integration for the Agile model then. It's more efficient than getting two enhancements.

Will need a bit more time to see how it compares to simply giving a biped flight, then. Although be aware that it does mean the biped's starting with the equivalent of 4 slots to the quad's 2. Or are the two on the biped negated by the arms?

If the Agile mech with arms enhancement is superior to humanoid in almost any way, perhaps the arms enhancements should be split into an individual arm enhancement that can be taken twice. In that case the language should probably be changed to losing one slot for each arm being used to hold stuff.

Far as I understand, the biped's weapon slots are negated when wielding anything on the arms.

[Ssalarn]

If the Agile mech with arms enhancement is superior to humanoid in almost any way, perhaps the arms enhancements should be split into an individual arm enhancement that can be taken twice. In that case the language should probably be changed to losing one slot for each arm being used to hold stuff.

Noted and taken under advisement.

Far as I understand, the biped's weapon slots are negated when wielding anything on the arms.

Yep, Biped has slots or arms, not both at once.

[tekevil]

Personally I would prefer that the use of arms that turn disables the 2 weapon slots

IE: I'm holding my axe, but this round I intend to plant my feet and shoot my shoulder beam cannons! This turn I'm swinging my axe, so I can't fire my beam cannons.

[Ssalarn]

Personally I would prefer that the use of arms that turn disables the 2 weapon slots

IE: I'm holding my axe, but this round I intend to plant my feet and shoot my shoulder beam cannons! This turn I'm swinging my axe, so I can't fire my beam cannons.

The only issue is action order and the phrasing that defines when things occur, so you can't draw, attack, sheathe, use slots. Having the arms effectively occupy the slots while you're wielding a weapon is kind of the shortest route to the desired destination. Definitely willing to look at simpler ways to phrase the interactions though.

[Prime32]

The easiest route would be to simply give the Biped 0 weapon slots, and make Arms a unique ability rather than an enhancement. If you want vulcans or the like, that's what Additional Weapon Slot is for. It would help the body types feel more distinct, too.
If you still want a way to add arms to the other body types (or extra arms to a Biped), then rather than disabling weapon slots you could require a "Manipulator Arms" enhancement as a prerequisite - it gives you two crude arms which can be used to hold things (and possibly grant reach as a Tall creature) but not wield weapons.

Also, can I suggest introducing the terms "integrated weapons" and "integrated weapon slots" to prevent confusion with weapons you're wielding?

[PsyBomb]

Is there an option in the works to let you use a slot for a Noncombat thing? I made Serenity and its crew drawing heavily from this, but need a way to increase storage capacity. (Also, level was too low for Size Increase, so I hacked it by having two CTVs welded together from two of the crew)

[Ssalarn]

Is there an option in the works to let you use a slot for a Noncombat thing?

There is now.

I made Serenity and its crew drawing heavily from this, but need a way to increase storage capacity. (Also, level was too low for Size Increase, so I hacked it by having two CTVs welded together from two of the crew)

One of the things I've been considering is more options for combining vehicles. I think it's a cool idea that's prevalent in a lot of the material that helps inspire and inform the project, so as "necessities" get wrapped up, I'll definitely set aside more time to really consider and test ways to exercise combination mechanics that aren't locked behind a particular archetype.

[Kiton2]

Combining or not you may want to include rules for truly massive vehicles; after all anything Gargantuan or Colossal is probably serving as a home, and may need to consider cargo, defensive emplacements (it gets a little on the bad side of stupid if a colossal flyer has only the one weapon slot when it should be bristling with weaponry) as well as power generation and facilities.

The current rules present in pathfinder don't actually allow for much modficiation, customization, let alone creation of vehicles at all, and all of them have this annoying tendency to read as though they were referencing or supplementing another book, without said books existing of course.

Also currently still missing are life support and mobility options in regards to void travel and stardrives in general; there's other planets in the system!